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A Body of Divinity by Thomas Watson, A Believerís Privilege At Death
http://www.fivesolas.com/watson/privileg.htm ^ | Unknown | Thomas Watson

Posted on 09/29/2013 9:02:58 AM PDT by jodyel

A Body of Divinity by Thomas Watson

A Believer’s Privilege At Death

'For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.’ Phil 1: 21.

Hope is a Christian's anchor, which he casts within the veil. 'Rejoicing in hope.' Rom 12: 12. A Christian’s hope is not in this life, but he 'hash hope in his death.’ Prov 14: 32. The best of a saint’s comfort begins when his life ends; but the wicked have all their heaven here. 'Woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation.’ Luke 6: 24. You may make your acquittance, and write 'Received in full payment.' 'Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things.' Luke 16: 25. But a saint's happiness is in reversion. 'The righteous has hope in his death.' God keeps the best wine till last. If Cato, the heathen, said, 'To me to die is gain:’ he saw mortality to be a mercy: what, then, may a believer say! 'The day of death is better than the day of one’s birth.’ Eccl 7: 1: A queen of this land said she preferred her coffin before her cradle.

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TOPICS: Apologetics; General Discusssion
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What benefits do believers receive at death?

I. The saints, at death, have great immunities and freedoms. An apprentice, when out of his time, is made free: so, when the saints are out of their time of living, they are made free! they are not made free till death. [I] At death they are freed from a body of sin. There are in the best reliquiae peccati [the remnants of sin], some remainders and relics of corruption. 'O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from this body of death?' Rom 7: 24. By the body of death is meant the congeries, the mass and lump of sin. It may well be called a body for its weightiness, and a body of death for its noisomeness. (I.) It weighs us down. Sin hinders us from doing good. A Christian - like a bird that would be flying up, but has a string tied to its legs to hinder it - would be flying up to heaven with the wings of desire, but sin hinders him. 'The good that I would, I do not.’ Rom 7: I9. He is like a ship under sail, and at anchor! grace would sail forward, but sin is the anchor that holds it back. (2.) Sin is more active in its sphere than grace. How stirring was lust in David, when his grace lay dormant! (3). Sin sometimes gets the mastery, and leads a saint captive. 'The evil that I would not, that I do.’ Rom 7: I9. Paul was like a man carried down the stream, and could not bear up against it. How often is a child of God overpowered with pride and passion! Therefore Paul calls sin a law in his members. Rom 7: 23. It binds as a law; it has a kind of jurisdiction over the soul, as Caesar had over the senate. (4.) Sin defiles the soul; like a stain to beauty, it turns the soul’s azure brightness into sable. (5.) Sin debilitates us, disarms us of our strength. 'I am this day weak, though anointed king.’ 2 Sam 3: 39. Though a saint be crowned with grace, and anointed a spiritual king, he is weak. (6.) Sin is ever restless. 'The flesh lusts against the spirit.' Gal 5: I7. It is an inmate that is always quarrelling; like Marcellus, that Roman captain, of whom Hannibal said, whether he beat or was beaten, he would never be quiet. (7.) Sin adheres to us, we cannot get rid of it. It may be compared to a wild fig-tree growing on a wall, the roots of which are pulled up, but some fibres of it are left in the joints of the stone-work, which cannot be got out. (8.) Sin mingles with our duties and graces. It makes a child of God weary of his life, and makes him water his couch with his tears, to think that sin is so strong a party, and he often offends the God he loves. This made Paul cry out, Miser ego homo! 'O wretched man that I am!' He did not cry out for his affliction, or his prison-chain, but for the body of sin. Now a believer at death is freed from sin, he is not taken away in, but from his sins; he shall never have a vain, proud thought more; he shall never grieve the Spirit of God any more. Sin brought death into the world, and death shall carry sin out of the world. The Persians had a certain day in the year in which they killed all serpents and venomous creatures; such a day will the day of death be to a believer; it will destroy all his sins, which, like so many serpents, have stung him. Death smites a believer as the angel did Peter, and made his chains fall off. Acts 12: 7. Believers at death are made perfect in holiness. 'The spirits of just men made perfect.' Heb 12: 23. At death the souls of believers recover their virgin purity. Oh! what a blessed privilege is this, to be sine macula et ruga, without spot or wrinkle; to be purer than the sunbeams; to be as free from sin as the angels! Eph 5: 27. This makes a believer desirous to have his passport and to be gone; he would fain live in that pure air where no black vapours of sin arise.

[2] At death the saints shall be freed from all the troubles and incumbrances to which this life is subject. 'Sin is the seed sown, and trouble is the harvest reaped.’ Euripides. Life and trouble are married together. There is more in life to wean us than to tempt us. Parents divide a portion of sorrow to their children, and yet leave enough for themselves. 'Man is born to trouble;’ he is heir to it, it is his birth-right; you may as well separate weight from lead, as trouble from the life of man. Job 5: 7. King Henry’s emblem was a crown hung in a bush of thorns. There is a far greater proportion of bitterness than pleasure in this life. 'I have perfumed my bed with myrrh, aloes, and cinnamon.’ Prov 7: 17. For one sweet ingredient there were two bitter; for the cinnamon, there were myrrh and aloes. A man's grace will not exempt him from troubles. 'Few and evil have the days of the years of my life been.’ Gen 47: 9. Thus said a godly patriarch, though he had met with God. He named 'the name of the place Peniel; for I have seen God face to face:’ Gen 32: 30; and yet he had his troubles. There are many things to imbitter life and cause trouble, but death frees us from all. (I.) Care. The mind is full of perplexed thoughts, how to bring about such a design; how to prevent such an evil. The Greek word for care comes from a primitive in the Greek, that signifies, To cut the heart in pieces. Care excruciates the mind; wastes the spirits. No such bitter bread as the bread of carefulness. Ezek 12: 19. Care is a spiritual canker, which eats out the comfort of life: death | is its only cure. (2.) Fear. Fear is the ague of the soul, which sets it shaking. 'There is torment in fear.’ I John 4: I8. Fear is like Prometheus’s vulture gnawing the heart. There is a mistrustful fear, a fear of want; and a distracting fear, a fear of danger; and a discouraging fear, a fear God does not love us. These fears leave sad impressions upon the mind. At death a believer is freed from these torturing fears; he is as far from fear as the damned are from hope. The grave buries a Christian's fear. (3.) Labour. 'All things are full of labour.’ Eccl 1: 8. Some labour in the mine, others among the Muses. God has made a law, 'In the sweat of thy face thou shalt eat bread;' but death gives a believer a quietus; it takes him off from his day-labour. 'Blessed are the dead that die in the Lord: they rest from their labours.' Rev 14: 13. What needs working, when they have their reward? What needs fighting, when the crown is set on their head? 'They rest from their labours.' (4.) Suffering. Believers are as a lily among thorns; as the dove among birds of prey. The wicked have an antipathy against them; and secret hatred will break forth into open violence. 'He that was born after the flesh, persecuted him that was born after the Spirit.' Gal 4: 29. The dragon is described with seven heads and ten horns. Rev 12: 3. He plotteth with the one, and pusheth with the other. But at death the godly shall be freed from the molestations of the wicked, they shall never more be pestered with these vermin. 'There (viz. in the grave) the wicked cease from troubling.' Job 3: 17. Death does to a believer, as Joseph of Arimathaea did to Christ, it takes him down from the cross, and gives him a writ of ease. The eagle that flies high, cannot be stung with the serpent. Death gives the soul the wings of an eagle, to fly above all the venomous serpents here below. (5.) Temptation. Though Satan be a conquered enemy, yet he is a restless enemy. I Pet 5: 8. He walketh about; he is always going about his diocese; he has his snares and his darts; one he tempts with riches, another with beauty. It is no small trouble to be continually followed with temptations; it is as bad as for a virgin to have her chastity daily assaulted; but death will free a child of God from temptation, so that he shall never be vexed more with the old serpent. After death has shot its dart, the devil will have done shooting his. Grace puts a believer out of the devil's possession, but death only frees him from the devil's temptation. (6.) Sorrow. A cloud of sorrow often gathers in the heart, and drops into tears. 'My life is spent with grief, and my years with sighing.' Psa 31: 10. It was part of the curse, 'In sorrow thou shalt bring forth.' Gen 3: I6. Many things occasion sorrow: sickness, law-suits, treachery of friends, disappointment of hopes, and loss of estate. 'Call me not Naomi, call me Mara: I went out full, and the Lord has brought me home again empty.' Ruth 1: 20, 21. Sorrow is the evil spirit that haunts us. The world is a Bochim. Judges 2: 4. Rachel wept for her children: some grieve that they have no children, and others grieve that their children are undutiful. Thus we spend our years with sighing: it is a valley of tears; but death is the funeral of all our sorrows. 'And God shall wipe away all tears.' Rev 7: 17. Then Christ's spouse puts off her mourning; for how can the children of the bridechamber mourn, when the bridegroom is with them? Matt 9: 15. Thus death gives a believer his quietus; it frees him from sin and trouble. Though the apostle calls death the last enemy, I Cor 15: 26, yet it is the best friend. 'To me to die is gain.'

See here that which may make a true saint willing to die. Death will set him out of gunshot, and free him from sin and trouble. There is no cause for weeping to leave a valley of tears - a stage on which sin and misery are acted. Believers are here in a strange country, why then should they not be willing to go out of it? Death beats off their fetters of sin, and sets them free. Who goes weeping from a gaol? Besides our own sins, there are the sins of others. The world is a place where Satan’s seat is; a place where we see God daily dishonoured. Lot, who was a bright star in a dark night, felt his righteous soul vexed with the unclean conversation of the wicked. 2 Pet 2: 7. To see God’s Sabbaths broken, his truths adulterated, his glory eclipsed, wounds a godly heart. It made David cry out, 'Woe is me, that I sojourn in Mesech, that I dwell in the tents of Kedar.’ Psa 120: 5. Kedar was Arabia, where were Ishmael’s posterity. It was a cut to David’s heart to dwell there. O then be willing to depart out of the tents of Kedar.

II. The bodies of believers are united to Christ in the grave, and shall rest there till the resurrection. They are said to sleep in Jesus. I Thess 4: 14. The dust of believers is part of Christ’s mystic body. The grave is a dormitory or place of rest to the saints, where their bodies quietly sleep in Christ, till they are awakened out of their sleep by the trumpet of the archangel.

How shall we know that at death we shall be freed from sin and trouble, and have our bodies united to Christ in the grave?

'To me,' says Paul, 'to die is gain;' to me, quatenus a believer [insofar as I am a believer]. Are we such? Have we this blessed faith? Faith, wherever it is, is operative. Lapidaries say there is no precious stone but has virtutem insitam, some hidden virtue in it: so I may say of faith, it has some secret virtue in it; it anchors the soul on Christ; it has both a justifying and sanctifying virtue; it fetches blood out of Christ’s side to pardon, and water out of his side to purge; it works by love; it constrains to duty; it makes the head study for Christ, the tongue confess him, and the hands work for him. I have read of a father who had three sons, and left in his will all his estate to that son who could find his ring with the jewel which had a healing virtue. The case was brought before the judges; the two elder sons counterfeited a ring, but the younger son brought the true ring, which was proved by the virtue of it, whereupon his father’s estate went to him. To this ring I may compare faith. There is a counterfeit faith in the world: but if we can find this ring of faith which has the healing virtue in it to purify the heart, it is the true faith which gives us an interest in Christ, and entitles us to all these privileges at death, to be freed from sin and sorrow, and to have our bodies united to Christ, while they are in the grave.

III. At death the souls of believers pass into glory. Death brings malorum omnium ademptionem; omnium adeptionem [Death brings the removal of all evils, and the attainment of all things]; it is the daybreak of eternal brightness. Here I shall lead you to the top of Mount Pisgah and give you a glimpse of the Holy Land.

What is comprehended in glory?

Glory is status omnium bonorum aggregatione perfectus [a state made perfect by the gathering together of everything good]. Boethius. It is a perfect state of bliss, which consists in the accumulation and heaping together all the good things of which immortal souls are capable. And truly here I am at a loss; for all I can say falls short of the celestial glory. Appelles' pencil cannot delineate it; angels' tongues cannot express it. We shall never understand glory fully till we are in heaven. Let me give you some dark views only, and some imperfect lineaments of that state of glory at which saints shall arrive after death.

[1] The first and most sublime part of the glory of heaven is the full and sweet fruition of God. Ipse Deus sufficit adpraemium. Augustine. We are apt to think the happiness of heaven is in being free from pain and misery; but the very essence of happiness is the enjoyment and fruition of God. God is an infinite inexhaustible fountain of joy; and to have him, is to have all. The enjoyment of God implies three things.

The enjoyment of God implies our seeing him. 'We shall see him as he is.' I John 3: 2. Here we see him as he is not; mutable, mortal: there as he is.

How shall we see God?

(1.) We shall see him intellectually, with the eyes of the mind. This divines call the beatific vision. We shall have a full knowledge of God, though not know him fully. If there were not such an intellectual sight of God, how could the spirits of just men made perfect see God? This sight of God will be very glorious; as when a king, on his coronation-day, shows himself in all his royalty and magnificence.

(2.) We shall corporally behold the glorified body of Jesus Christ. And if it be a pleasant thing to behold the sun, how blessed a sight will it be to behold the Sun of Righteousness! to see Christ clothed in our human nature, sitting in glory above the angels! Solomon says, 'The eye is not satisfied with seeing.’ Eccl 1: 8. But surely the eyes of saints will be satisfied with seeing that orient brightness which shall shine from the beautiful body of Christ! It must needs be satisfying, because through Christ's flesh some rays and beams of the Godhead will gloriously display themselves. God's excellent majesty would overwhelm us; but through the vail of Christ's flesh we shall behold the divine glory.

(3.) Our seeing God will be transforming. We shall so see him, as to be in some measure assimilated and changed into his image. 'We shall be like him.' I John 3: 2. If, when Moses was with God on the Mount, and had but some imperfect sight of his glory, 'Moses' face shined,’ Exod 34: 35, how shall the saints glorified shine, being always in God's presence, and having some beams of his glory put upon them! 'We shall be like him.' One that is deformed may look on beauty, and not be made beautiful; but the saints shall so see God, as that sight shall transform them into his likeness. 'When I awake, I shall be satisfied with thy likeness.' Psa 17: I5. Not that the saints shall partake of God's essence; for as the iron in the fire is made fiery, yet remains iron still, so the saints, by beholding God's majesty, shall be made glorious creatures, but are creatures still.

(4.) Our seeing God in heaven will be without weariness. Let a man see the rarest sight that is, he will soon be cloyed; as when he comes into a garden, and sees delicious walks, fair arbours, pleasant flowers, within a little while he grows weary; but it is not so in heaven; there is no surfeit there; ibi nec fames nec fastidium. Bernard. The saints will never be weary of seeing God; for, God being infinite, there shall be every moment new and fresh delight springing from him into their souls.

The second thing implied in enjoying God, is loving him. It is a saint’s grief that his heart is like the frozen ocean, and he can melt no more in love to God; but in heaven he shall be like the seraphims, burning with divine love. Love is a pleasant affection; 'fear has torment.' I John 4: I8. Love has joy in it. To love beauty is delightful. God's amazing beauty will attract the saints, love, and it will be their heaven to love him.

The third thing implied in enjoying God is God’s loving us. Were there glory in God, yet, if there were not love, it would much eclipse the joys of heaven; but 'God is love.’ I John 4: 16. The saints glorified cannot love so much as they are loved. What is their love to God's? What is their star to this Sun? God loves his people on earth, when they are black as well as comely. If now they have their imperfections, oh, how entirely will he love them when they are 'without spot or wrinkle'! Eph 5: 27.

This is the felicity of heaven, to be in the sweet embraces of God’s love; to be the Hephzibah, the delight of the King of Glory; to be sunning ourselves in the light of God’s countenance. Then the saints shall know that love of Christ which passeth knowledge. Eph 3: I9. From this glorious manifestation of God’s love will flow infinite joy into the souls of the blessed; therefore heaven is called 'entering into the joy of our Lord,’ Matt 25: 21. The seeing God, loving God, and being beloved of God will cause a jubilation of spirit, and create such holy raptures of joy in the saints, that are unspeakable and full of glory. I Pet 1: 8. In Deo quodam dulcidene delectatur anima, imo rapitur [There is a certain sweetness about God's person which delights, nay, rather, ravishes the soul]. Augustine. Now the saints spend their years with sighing; they weep over their sins and afflictions: then their water shall be turned into wine - the vessels of mercy shall be filled and run over with joy; they shall have their palmbranches and harps in their hand, in token of their triumphs and rejoicing. Rev 14: 2.

[2] The second thing comprehended in glory is the good society there. There are the angels. Every star adds to the light. Those blessed cherubims will welcome us to paradise. If the angels rejoiced at the conversion of the elect, how will they rejoice at their coronation! There is the company of the saints. 'The spirits of just men made perfect.' Heb 12: 23.

Will the saints in glory know each other?

Certainly they shall; for our knowledge in heaven shall not be diminished, but increased. We shall not only know our friends and godly relations, but those glorified saints whom we never saw before. It must be so; for society without acquaintance is not comfortable. Of this opinion were Augustine, Anselm, and Luther. Indeed, the Scripture seems to hint as much to us; for, if Peter in the transfiguration knew Moses and Elias, whom he never saw before, Matt 17: 3, then surely in heaven the saints shall know one another, and be infinitely delighted in each other’s company.

[3] The third thing comprehended in glory is perfection in holiness. Holiness is the beauty of God and angels; it makes heaven. What is happiness but the essence of holiness? Here a Christian’s grace is imperfect. At death believers shall arrive at perfection of grace. Then this sun shall be in its meridian splendour; then shall they not need to pray for increase of grace, for they shall be as the angels; their light shall be clear, and their joy shall be full.

[4] The fourth thing in glory is dignity and honour. They shall reign as kings. Therefore glorified saints are said to have their insignia regalia, their ensigns of royalty, their white robes and their crown. Rev 7: 9. Caesar, after his victories, in token of honour, had a chair of ivory set for him in the senate, and a throne in the theatre; so the saints, having obtained their victories over sin and Satan, will be enthroned with Christ in the empyrean heaven. To sit with Christ denotes safety; to sit on the throne; dignity. 'This honour have all the saints.' Psa 149: 9.

[5] The fifth thing in glory is the harmony and union among the heavenly inhabitants. The devil cannot get his cloven foot into heaven; he cannot conjure up any storms of contention there. There shall be perfect union; there Calvin and Luther are agreed; there is no jarring string in the heavenly music; there is nothing to make any difference - no pride or envy there. Though one star may differ from another, one may have a greater degree of glory, yet every vessel shall be full. There shall the saints and angels sit as olive-plants round about their Father’s table in love and unity. Then shall they join together in concert, then shall the loud anthems of praise be sung in the heavenly choir.

[6] The sixth thing in glory is a blessed rest. 'There remains a rest.’ Heb 4: 9. Felix transitus a labore ad requiem [A happy transition from toil to rest]. Here we can have no rest, tossed and turned as a ball on racket. 'We are troubled on every side.’ 2 Cor 4: 8. How can a ship rest in a storm? But after death the saints get into their haven. Everything is quiet in the centre. God is centrum quietativum animae, as the schoolmen say, 'the centre where the soul cloth sweetly acquiesce.’ A Christian, after his weary marches and battles, shall put off his bloody armour, and rest himself upon the bosom of Jesus, that bed of perfume. When death has given the saints the wings of a dove, then they shall fly away to paradise and be at rest.

[7] The seventh thing in glory is eternity. 'An eternal weight of glory.’ 2 Cor 4: 17. Glory is a weight. The Hebrew word for glory is a weight. God must make us able to bear it. An eternal weight. Glory is such a manna as does not breed worms. If the saints, glory in heaven were but for a time, and they were in fear of losing it, it would eclipse and imbitter the joys of heaven; but eternity is written upon their joys. The garland made of flowers of paradise fades not. I Pet 5: 4. I have read of a river called the Day-river, at which time it runs with a full torrent, but at night is dried up. Such are all earthly comforts; they run with a full stream all the daytime of life, but at the night of death they are dried up. The glorified saints shall drink of the rivers of pleasure for evermore. Psa 16: 2: Eternity is the heaven of heavens; infine gaudium erit sine fine [At the last our joy shall be never-ending]. Bernard. The joys of heaven are overflowing and everlasting.

When do believers enter upon possession of glory?

They pass immediately after death into glory. Some hold, with the Platonists and Lucianists, that the soul dies; but many of the sober heathens believed the soul's immortality. The Romans, when their great men died, caused an eagle to be let loose, and fly about in the air, signifying hereby that the soul was immortal, and did not die with the body. Christ tells us the soul is not capable of being killed, therefore not of dying. Matt 10: 28. And as the soul does not die, so neither does it sleep in the body for a time. If the soul at death be absent from the body, it cannot sleep in the body. 2 Cor 5: 8. There is an immediate passage from death to glory; it is but the twinkling of an eye, and we shall see God. 'This day shalt thou be with me in paradise.’ Luke 23: 43. By paradise is meant heaven: the third heaven, into which Paul was taken. 2 Cor 12: 4. Christ said to the thief on the cross, 'This day shalt thou be with me in paradise.’ His body could not be there, for it was laid in the grave; but it was spoken of his soul, that it should be, immediately after death, in heaven. Let none be so vain as to talk of purgatory: a soul purged by Christ’s blood needs no fire of purgatory, but goes immediately from a deathbed into a glorified state.

Use one: See what little cause believers have to fear death, when it brings such glorious benefits. Why should the saints fear their preferment? Is it not a blessed thing to see God, to love God, and to lie for ever in the bosom of divine love? Is it not a blessed thing to meet our godly relations in heaven? Why should the saints be afraid of their blessings? Is a virgin afraid to be matched unto the crown? Now is but the contract: at death is the marriage-supper of the Lamb. Rev 19: 9. What hurt does death, but take us from among fiery serpents, and place us among angels? What hurt does it do, but to clothe us with a robe of immortality? Has he any wrong done him that has his sackcloth pulled off, and has cloth of gold put upon him? Fear not dying, ye who cannot live but by dying.

Use two: You who are real saints, whose hearts are purified by faith, spend much time in musing upon those glorious benefits which you shall have by Christ at death. Thus might you, by a contemplative life, begin the life of angels here, and be in heaven before your time. Eudoxius was so affected with the glory of the sun, that he thought he was born only to behold it. What should we contemplate but celestial glory, when we shall see God face to face! David was got above the ordinary sort of men; he was in the altitudes when he said, 'I am ever with thee.’ Psalm 139: 18. A true saint every day takes a turn in heaven; his thoughts and desires are, like cherubims, flying up to paradise. Can men of the world delight in looking upon their bags of gold, and fields of corn, and shall not the heirs of heaven take more delight in contemplating their glory in reversion? Could we send forth faith as a spy, and every day view the glory of the Jerusalem above, how would it rejoice us, as it does the heir to think of the inheritance which is to come into his hand shortly?

Use three: This may comfort the saints in two cases.

(I.) Under their wants. They abound only in wants: the meal is almost spent in the barrel; but be patient till death, and you shall have a supply of all your wants; you shall have a kingdom, and be as rich as heaven can make you. He who has the promise of an estate, after a few years have expired, though at present he has nothing to help himself, comforts himself with this, that shortly he shall have an estate come into his hand. 'It cloth not yet appear what we shall be;’ but we shall be enamelled with glory, and be as rich as the angels. I John 3: 2.

(2.) A true saint is, as Luther says, Haeres crucis [an heir of the Cross]. It may make us go cheerfully through our sufferings, that there are great things laid up in store; there is glory coming, which eye has not seen; we shall drink of the fruit of the vine in the kingdom of heaven. Though now we drink in a wormwood cup, yet there is sugar to sweeten it. We shall taste of those joys of paradise, which exceed our faith, and may be better felt than they can be expressed.

1 posted on 09/29/2013 9:02:58 AM PDT by jodyel
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To: jodyel

This has always been a sermon I loved...helped me greatly when those I loved went to be with the Lord.


2 posted on 09/29/2013 9:03:51 AM PDT by jodyel
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To: jodyel; boatbums; mlizzy; WVKayaker; smvoice; metmom; Iscool; faithhopecharity; CynicalBear; ...

Ping.


3 posted on 09/29/2013 9:06:34 AM PDT by jodyel
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To: jodyel
Heaven is not round
It is not square
It is clouds scattered everywhere
People are up there that we know
But if you're bad, you'll step below

A poem my sister wrote when she was just a little kid... I've never forgotten it! :)
4 posted on 09/29/2013 9:26:47 AM PDT by mlizzy (If people spent an hour a week in Eucharistic adoration, abortion would be ended. --Mother Teresa)
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To: mlizzy

Very nice


5 posted on 09/29/2013 9:30:35 AM PDT by corlorde (forWARD of the state)
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To: jodyel

And the Last Judgment, when Christ separates the sheep from the goats?

Which group will you be in?

Are you baptized?

Were you anointed on your deathbed?

How do you know all the sins you committed are forgiven?


6 posted on 09/29/2013 9:38:24 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

That is the Catholic way of salvation....not biblical salvation.

Born again and filled with the Spirit. Done deal.

Until the Spirit reveals this to you, you are always going to go with what you know even though it is not correct.

I would absolutely love some Catholic spiritual eyes to be opened...will pray that it happens.


7 posted on 09/29/2013 10:25:30 AM PDT by jodyel
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To: jodyel

“That is the Catholic way of salvation..”

And the Orthodox and in part the Anglican and Lutheran, in fact almost all of Christianity for almost all of history has believed what you dismiss so glibly.

Good luck with that.

“Jesus said to them again, ‘Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.’ And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.’ “


8 posted on 09/29/2013 10:27:41 AM PDT by narses
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To: Salvation; narses

9 posted on 09/29/2013 11:44:33 AM PDT by BlueDragon
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To: BlueDragon

Credo in Deum Patrem omnipotentem;
Creatorem caeli et terrae.

Et in Jesum Christum,
Filium eius unicum, Dominum nostrum;
qui conceptus est
de Spiritu Sancto,
natus ex Maria virgine;
passus sub Pontio Pilato,
crucifixus, mortuus, et sepultus;
descendit ad inferos;
tertia die resurrexit a mortuis;
ascendit ad caelos;
sedet ad dexteram Dei Patris omnipotentis;
inde venturus est
iudicare vivos et mortuos.

Credo in Spiritum Sanctum;
sanctam ecclesiam catholicam;
sanctorum communionem;
remissionem peccatorum;
carnis resurrectionem;
vitam aeternam. Amen.

In English:

I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ,
his only Son, our Lord.
He was conceived
by the power of the Holy Spirit,
and born of the Virgin Mary,
He suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
He descended into hell.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
he will come again
to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy Catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen


10 posted on 09/29/2013 11:48:17 AM PDT by narses
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To: narses

Is that to say “you do not know” what group you shall be in?


11 posted on 09/29/2013 11:54:48 AM PDT by BlueDragon
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To: BlueDragon

No one “knows” - sin can destroy anyone. God knows, but no one else does.


12 posted on 09/29/2013 11:57:10 AM PDT by narses
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To: narses; Salvation; jodyel

Then why ask do you ask of another that which by your own words you cannot answer for yourself?

Do you seek wisdom? Here is wisdom, even the word of God;


13 posted on 09/29/2013 12:12:59 PM PDT by BlueDragon
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To: BlueDragon

Thanks, but heretics blather interest me not. I will follow Our Lord and His appointed Apostles and their successors, not some backwoods ignoramus.


14 posted on 09/29/2013 12:28:08 PM PDT by narses
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To: jodyel

15 posted on 09/29/2013 12:28:39 PM PDT by narses
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To: jodyel

OSAS is a false doctrine. What do you do when you sin?


16 posted on 09/29/2013 12:32:34 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: jodyel
Anointing of the Sick


17 posted on 09/29/2013 12:33:42 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

And here I thought you were prepared to listen.

Heartbreaking.


18 posted on 09/29/2013 12:38:25 PM PDT by jodyel
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To: jodyel

19 posted on 09/29/2013 12:39:35 PM PDT by narses
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To: BlueDragon

What do you do when you sin?


20 posted on 09/29/2013 12:40:26 PM PDT by narses
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To: narses

You could at least come up with something different to post instead of this same old tired image.

It truly grieves me that your ears are so stopped up and your minds so closed and your hearts so dead.

Wonder what could have been if someone had ministered and witnessed to you long before this forum did it’s damage to you.

Very heartbreaking...especially as you’ve no idea of the eternal consequences of your scoffing.


21 posted on 09/29/2013 12:41:13 PM PDT by jodyel
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To: narses

Well, I am truly sorry you will not listen.

God wants none to perish but you simply will not be budged.

Remember me on the last day and remember that I did speak truth.


22 posted on 09/29/2013 12:43:05 PM PDT by jodyel
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To: mlizzy

Sweet and child-like sight. :)

Thanks for sharing.


23 posted on 09/29/2013 12:44:05 PM PDT by jodyel
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To: jodyel
Very heartbreaking...especially as you’ve no idea of the eternal consequences of your scoffing.

Is this another guy that's going to hell?

24 posted on 09/29/2013 12:44:22 PM PDT by Hacksaw (I haven't taken the 30 silvers.)
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To: jodyel

What do you do when you sin?


25 posted on 09/29/2013 12:46:28 PM PDT by narses
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To: jodyel

You speak truth?

According to what authority?? Yours? Is this YOPIOS?? Your Own Private Interpretation of Scripture?


26 posted on 09/29/2013 12:52:53 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: jodyel; narses

Thomas Watson — just his own opinions. Now authority behind his statements.

http://www.fivesolas.com/watson/wattarget.htm


27 posted on 09/29/2013 12:55:25 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: jodyel

What do you do when you sin?


28 posted on 09/29/2013 12:56:43 PM PDT by narses
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To: Salvation
Now No authority behind his statements.
29 posted on 09/29/2013 12:56:45 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

Those fun luvin’ Puritans, paragons of virtue all!


30 posted on 09/29/2013 12:57:29 PM PDT by narses
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To: narses; BlueDragon

You didn’t answer his question. Which group will you be in?


31 posted on 09/29/2013 1:11:56 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: CynicalBear

You bore me. Pagans and heretics have that affect. And, not that it matters, I did answer. Your inability to process simple english is your problem, not mine.


32 posted on 09/29/2013 1:14:11 PM PDT by narses
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To: narses; jodyel
>> “Jesus said to them again, ‘Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.’ And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.’ “<<

Acts 15:8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness by granting them the holy Spirit just as he did us. 9 He made no distinction between us and them, for by faith he purified their hearts.

33 posted on 09/29/2013 1:14:50 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: CynicalBear

So? What do you do when you sin?


34 posted on 09/29/2013 1:17:09 PM PDT by narses
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To: narses; Salvation

If I thought you truly wanted to know, I’d tell you....but you don’t. Your mind and heart are not open.

I just want to let both of you know that I will no longer read or reply to your posts.

This is becoming incredibly heartbreaking to me. I’ll leave you with the testimony of a man who was Roman Catholic, who God led into the spirit of truth. I hope you will listen to him and reflect on what he says.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mxmXKvtSUM

And perhaps you will also read my post titled The Eye of Faith and read how God has worked in my life...even down to the smallest of things. God is truly an awesome God.

I leave you now.

Father, forgive them for they know not what they do.


35 posted on 09/29/2013 1:21:39 PM PDT by jodyel
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To: jodyel; Salvation

“Your mind and heart are not open.”

Mindreading is both against the rules of this site and the basics of the faith you claim to follow.

“I just want to let both of you know that I will no longer read or reply to your posts.”

Darn. As if you have been so far.

As for the words of heretics, pagans and liars - well, no thanks.


36 posted on 09/29/2013 1:24:10 PM PDT by narses
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To: narses; BlueDragon
>>No one “knows” - sin can destroy anyone. God knows, but no one else does.<<

2 Corinthians 1:22 and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

2 Corinthians 5:5 He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

Ephesians 1:13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

1 John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. 11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Romans 8:38-39 say, "For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Nothing can separate a child of God from their Father.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Romans 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life." (John 5:24)

Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

37 posted on 09/29/2013 1:29:14 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: Salvation; jodyel
>>No one “knows” - sin can destroy anyone. God knows, but no one else does.<<

2 Corinthians 1:22 and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

2 Corinthians 5:5 He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

Ephesians 1:13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

1 John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. 11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Romans 8:38-39 say, "For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Nothing can separate a child of God from their Father.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Romans 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life." (John 5:24)

Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

38 posted on 09/29/2013 1:30:27 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: CynicalBear

...and yet you despise church, you mock Easter, Christmas and Lent and quote Holy Writ with the apperant intent to lead people away from their beliefs. Odd. And boring.


39 posted on 09/29/2013 1:31:24 PM PDT by narses
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To: narses
Oh narses, you disappoint me.

>>I did answer.<<

You really don’t know do you?

40 posted on 09/29/2013 1:35:01 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: narses
>> quote Holy Writ with the apperant intent to lead people away from their beliefs.<<

Um,,,,,,,Yeah!!! God’s words are always a call to lead people away from pagan beliefs and practices and into His will.

41 posted on 09/29/2013 1:39:37 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: jodyel

Certainly! She wrote scads of poetry; some really good stuff for such a young age (1st or 2nd-grade), but the book my mother made of all her works was destroyed in a flood. I can’t remember the deeper stuff verbatim.


42 posted on 09/29/2013 1:56:44 PM PDT by mlizzy (If people spent an hour a week in Eucharistic adoration, abortion would be ended. --Mother Teresa)
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To: narses
You asked; Yet to a previous comment which I made to you, other than a question, I provided link to a spread of five versions (including Douy-Rheims, American 1899) of some scripture passages, to which you replied;

Which logically rather begs the question;
Then why now question me? You have just said "heretics blather" does not "interest" you.

If I am (in your own estimation) the very "heretic" to whom you meant to refer in that non-answer reply which you offered to myself, that is. As it came about, it was less than entirely & precisely clear to who it was you were referring to.

If not be myself you were calling a "backwoods ignoramous" (along with also referring to myself as "heretic"?) then who? Is God a backwoods ignoramous? I'm pretty sure he could skin a buck and run a trot line better than I, but I can get'r done. County boy will survive, by the Grace of God...

All I did was ask a couple of questions, and provide a link to some scripture, with myself calling that "the word of God."

Please stipulate more clearly who you are calling "heretic" and "backwoods ignoramous".

43 posted on 09/29/2013 2:25:23 PM PDT by BlueDragon
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To: BlueDragon

44 posted on 09/29/2013 2:28:12 PM PDT by narses
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To: narses
time for a nap?


45 posted on 09/29/2013 2:52:23 PM PDT by BlueDragon
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To: Salvation
And the Last Judgment, when Christ separates the sheep from the goats?

Which group will you be in?

There won't be any members of the church in either one of those groups...

46 posted on 09/29/2013 4:11:26 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: narses
No one “knows” - sin can destroy anyone. God knows, but no one else does.

Well of course we know...You are under the false impression that because you don't know, no one can know...

47 posted on 09/29/2013 4:15:12 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: CynicalBear

I’ll bet they never finished the 1st sentence and skipped over the rest...


48 posted on 09/29/2013 4:26:19 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: Iscool

And how do you know that?


49 posted on 09/29/2013 4:29:00 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: CynicalBear

Everyone will be judged.

While we are alive, Christ is perfect mercy. At the moment of our death, Christ will be perfect justice.


50 posted on 09/29/2013 4:30:16 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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