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Pope Francis, Theological Wreck
Moore to the Point via RealClear Religion ^ | 10/1/2013 | Russel Moore

Posted on 10/02/2013 1:14:47 PM PDT by Obadiah

It’s another week and thus another interview with Pope Francis. This one, I’m sorry to say, is more than just confusing. It’s a theological wreck.

In an interview with La Repubblica, in response to a question about whether there is a “single vision of good,” the Pope said, “Everyone has his own idea of good and evil and must choose to follow the good and fight evil as he conceives them. That would be enough to make the world a better place,” and “The Son of God became incarnate in the souls of men to instill the feeling of brotherhood.” When the reporter commented, “Some of my colleagues who know you told me that you will try to convert me,” the Pope also said “Proselytism is solemn nonsense, it makes no sense. We need to get to know each other, listen to each other and improve our knowledge of the world around us.”

From Augustine’s Confessions to “Well, everyone has his own ideas about good and bad…” is a mighty long path.


TOPICS: Catholic; General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: popefrancis
I have watched Pope Francis these past months and I have been bothered by a number of his proclamations. This writer reflects some of my concern.
1 posted on 10/02/2013 1:14:47 PM PDT by Obadiah
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To: Obadiah

I’m with you...


2 posted on 10/02/2013 1:16:14 PM PDT by pgkdan
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To: Obadiah

He is a public heretic. Public heretics can not be popes.

Sede Vacante.


3 posted on 10/02/2013 1:21:16 PM PDT by piusv
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To: Obadiah
He's a progressive.

That's very clear from his statements.

4 posted on 10/02/2013 1:22:51 PM PDT by what's up
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To: piusv

He is old and has serious medical problems. He will not be with us for long. Hopefully a new, young, Conservative Pope will replace him and forcefully dictate known Catholic Truths.


5 posted on 10/02/2013 1:26:45 PM PDT by Jim from C-Town (The government is rarely benevolent, often malevolent and never benign!)
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To: piusv

if so (no pope, and that does sound rather jarring for a Christian statement, no matter what form of small-o orthodox Christendom made it) — does that put the Roman Catholic church in evangelical mode or what? obviously nobody expects it to shut down like the government....

there should at least be a good theoretical answer to the question of good and evil... good is what you get from being invested in God, and evil is what you get from being invested in the enemy. the difficulty of doing this does not excuse falling into moral relativism... that was the sin of the garden.


6 posted on 10/02/2013 1:26:56 PM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (The Lion of Judah will roar again if you give him a big hug and a cheer and mean it. See my page.)
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To: Obadiah; pgkdan; markomalley
I have watched Pope Francis these past months and I have been bothered by a number of his proclamations. This writer reflects some of my concern.

The writer is commenting on an English translation of an article in a radical left wing Italian newspaper, between Pope Francis and an atheist journalist. Let's begin with the translation, which is riddled with errors. For example:

Italian: Il Figlio di Dio si è incarnato per infondere nell’anima degli uomini il sentimento della fratellanza….

Eng. Translation: “The Son of God became incarnate in the souls of men to instill the feeling of brotherhood”,

Proper Translation: The Son of God was incarnate in order to instill in the soul of men the feeling of brotherhood.

WDTPRS: What Did The Pope Really Say? 1 – UPDATES

7 posted on 10/02/2013 1:27:12 PM PDT by NYer ("The wise man is the one who can save his soul. - St. Nimatullah Al-Hardini)
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To: Obadiah
Southern Baptist giving the Pope the benefit of the doubt...

I don't think he is saying that there isn't absolute good and evil. He's saying that everyone's compass doesn't measure the same.

You see it in the New Testament. Some were offended by eating meat that had been offered to idols. Other knew the idols weren't real and that meat was meat.

You see it today among denominations. Some feel drinking is a sin. Others recognize drinking in moderation is okay.

And in some cases there are ligitimate differences in conscience that do not arise differences in understanding scripture.

What may be okay for one person is not for another because God has told that person not to do something. And the inverse could be true to. God could have commanded someone to do something, so it's a sin if they don't do it, but God didn't command that same thing of others.

8 posted on 10/02/2013 1:27:49 PM PDT by DannyTN
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To: Obadiah

Part of the problem with this interview is poor translation from Italian to English.

See this thread where Fr. Z. clears some of this up:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3073621/posts?


9 posted on 10/02/2013 1:27:50 PM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: DannyTN

the problem is the vague language. “as he conceives them” — due to what? due to the direction of God (that’s great) or due to some unknown factor (that’s asking for big trouble)?


10 posted on 10/02/2013 1:30:11 PM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (The Lion of Judah will roar again if you give him a big hug and a cheer and mean it. See my page.)
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To: NYer
Proper Translation: The Son of God was incarnate in order to instill in the soul of men the feeling of brotherhood.

This is no improvement. This pope is a true Jesuit.

The Son of God was incarnate so that he may die as the ultimate sacrifice so that sins may be forgiven.

11 posted on 10/02/2013 1:35:37 PM PDT by pgkdan
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To: HiTech RedNeck
Dear HiTech RedNeck,

As other have noted (and I have noted, as well), part of the problem is translation. The thread linked twice in this thread has a discussion by Fr. Zuhlsdorf, an American priest currently residing in Rome, who is pretty fluent in Italian.

In the case of “conceives,” Fr. Z believes that's not such a good translation, but rather, what is being said is more along of the lines of becoming aware [of the objective moral law]. Which is actually Catholic teaching, that men are capable of becoming aware of, of learning, of detecting, of developing a conception of the moral law unaided by grace.


sitetest

12 posted on 10/02/2013 1:39:58 PM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: NYer
I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but it would appear that there has been a continuing refrain of being mistranslated. I simply don't agree with the statement:

there is a “single vision of good,” the Pope said, “Everyone has his own idea of good and evil...

If he is being mistranslated then I hope he recognizes this ongoing problem and takes greater steps to grasp that his statements bear some manner of weight and that the margin for haphazardness is quite small.

13 posted on 10/02/2013 1:51:42 PM PDT by Obadiah (I Like Ted.)
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To: HiTech RedNeck

Does the Catholic Church continue when a pope dies? Of course it does. We are just in a much longer period of sede vacante than normal.


14 posted on 10/02/2013 2:12:06 PM PDT by piusv
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To: Obadiah

I’m so tired of the excuses...mistranslations, media bias, not reading it in context.

Please.

Enough.


15 posted on 10/02/2013 2:13:28 PM PDT by piusv
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To: pgkdan

Exactly. Pure modernism.


16 posted on 10/02/2013 2:14:31 PM PDT by piusv
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To: Obadiah; metmom; WVKayaker; smvoice; Elsie; CynicalBear; BlueDragon; boatbums; MHGinTN

“Some of my colleagues who know you told me that you will try to convert me,” the Pope also said “Proselytism is solemn nonsense, it makes no sense. We need to get to know each other, listen to each other and improve our knowledge of the world around us.”

And this is exactly what sets apart a Spirit-filled Christian from a professing Christian. We are called to go and make disciples of men and that means evangelize and proclaim the Gospel to all who don’t know Him and even to those professing they know Him.

You cannot serve two masters. You either believe Jesus and His word or you try and please everyone in the world. Sounds like that is what this pope is doing...appeasing and pleasing everyone but Christ.


17 posted on 10/02/2013 2:16:18 PM PDT by jodyel
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To: piusv

Is a light bulb beginning to shine in your vicinity, pius?


18 posted on 10/02/2013 2:18:57 PM PDT by jodyel
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To: jodyel

It’s not just this pope. This has been going on since Vatican II.


19 posted on 10/02/2013 2:19:10 PM PDT by piusv
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To: jodyel
>>Sounds like that is what this pope is doing...appeasing and pleasing everyone but Christ.<<

That’s the way it looks to me. It would also be in line with prophesy.

20 posted on 10/02/2013 2:20:16 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: NYer

If he spoke in Italian, he could have avoided mistranslation by saying, “Il Figlio di Dio si è incarnato per infondere il sentimento della fratellanza nell’anima degli uomini ….”

But it still isn’t scriptural.

Why is Francis continually more susceptible to mistranslation than any pope en recent memory?


21 posted on 10/02/2013 2:26:27 PM PDT by Chaguito
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To: CynicalBear

Indeed!

The way is narrower than we know.


22 posted on 10/02/2013 2:29:03 PM PDT by jodyel
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To: piusv

Maybe it is time to come out of Catholicism? If you have not already?


23 posted on 10/02/2013 2:29:38 PM PDT by jodyel
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To: Obadiah
The Pope's Interview
24 posted on 10/02/2013 2:35:39 PM PDT by Berlin_Freeper
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To: pgkdan

yep


25 posted on 10/02/2013 2:39:18 PM PDT by Donnafrflorida (Thru HIM all things are possible.)
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To: NYer

Then why did they put the crappy translation on the Vatican website and call it a speech?


26 posted on 10/02/2013 2:40:04 PM PDT by Solson (The Voters stole the election! And the establishment wants it back.)
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To: Obadiah

He is right! Without Torah there is no actual definition of right and wrong. The church and nearly all of Western civilization has decided that somehow Yeshua who was, is and will always be the Torah, did away with the Torah; himself!? Wow.

The complete collapse of law, since there is no absolute law which leads to there being no supreme law; which leads to everyone deciding what is _good_ on their own terms; leading to the recent and accelerating, decent of mankind.


27 posted on 10/02/2013 2:58:20 PM PDT by veracious
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To: sitetest; NYer

Was, “I have the humility and ambition to want to do something” a mistranslation also?


28 posted on 10/02/2013 3:53:41 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: ebb tide
Dear ebb tide,

Don't think for a minute that I'm going to defend all that Pope Francis says. Regarding his comments about narcissism, etc., I think there is a certain irony in his remarks. My experience is that many clerics are narcissistic. He doesn't seem to stray from the type.

I can't say that I'm delighted by every word that issues forth from this pope. Nonetheless, not all criticisms are deserved, and that includes those directed at a couple of seemingly bad translations discussed here.


sitetest

29 posted on 10/02/2013 4:01:31 PM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: Obadiah

Can’t help but ask myself “What the heck is this Pope smoking?”


30 posted on 10/02/2013 4:03:55 PM PDT by miserare (Fire Eric Holder!)
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To: pgkdan

You are correct. God became man to instill feelings in us? Oy vey!


31 posted on 10/02/2013 4:51:45 PM PDT by Jeff Chandler (Let your 'Yes' mean 'Yes,' and your 'No' mean 'No.' Matthew 5:37)
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To: NYer

Does not the Pope bear the responsibility of controlling to the best of his ability the message he conveys?


32 posted on 10/02/2013 4:52:56 PM PDT by Jeff Chandler (Let your 'Yes' mean 'Yes,' and your 'No' mean 'No.' Matthew 5:37)
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To: Obadiah

And who is Rachel Moore or Obadian to judge? Are you the next Popes?


33 posted on 10/02/2013 5:00:01 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: piusv

We can’t be the judge.


34 posted on 10/02/2013 5:00:27 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: piusv

Why do you say that?

It was the U. S. Bishops who misinformed the people in the U. S. after Vatican II.

Actually things did not change that much in the document. Read it, please.


35 posted on 10/02/2013 5:02:49 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Chaguito

Oh, it happened to John Paul II, and to Benedict XVI, and Popes before them. The lamestream media love to harrass the Catholic Church and the Popes. Don’t take the news stories seriously unless you read the REAL document first.


36 posted on 10/02/2013 5:05:32 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: jodyel

Aren’t you traveling elsewhere today?


37 posted on 10/02/2013 5:06:19 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

Nope, still stuck with me. :)


38 posted on 10/02/2013 6:02:48 PM PDT by jodyel
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To: jodyel; Obadiah
Sounds a bit like Rick Warren with a lot "Independent Evangelical" rationalizing of the murder of infants with "onmtraception" mixed in. Why no celebration from the Self and Self Alone heretics who serve and appease only their Self?

Don't the Self Alone folks know that no reporter would ever make subtle changes while translating a speech when that reporter knew the translation probably wouldn't be double checked by their allies or gullible dupes within the Vatican?

It's just like when Nancy Pelosi spouts exactly the same beliefs the people FR who lie about and slander the Catholic Church preach. The loudmouths demanding eveyone leave the One True Church try to pretend Nancy hasn't joined the ranks of the Evangeical Self Alone crowd even though she sounds like and professes exactly the same Self an Self Alone trash the anti-Catholic folks preach and claim is the Truth.

The country is falling apart because every individual makes up their own definition of right and wrong as well as their own laws. The short bus Self and Self Alone crowd claim recruiting more people to their clearly failed delusion that each individual is their own highest authority in all things is the solution. The millions who Self Alone doctrine annually leads to the logical and inevitble conclusion of either spiritual apathy or outright hedonism don't phase them a bit. Now that's one strong deluion.

But what else can you expect from people who insist Jesus Christ lied when He said He would protect His Word from error, that the Holy Spirit cannot and did not protect His Word from the inclusion of error, that Jesus Christ lied again when He said, "This is my body", and that Paul lied by saying

Romans 11:21 For if God hath not spared the natural branches, fear lest perhaps he also spare not thee.
Romans 11:22 See then the goodness and the severity of God: towards them indeed that are fallen, the severity; but towards thee, the goodness of God,if thou abide in goodness, otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

The short bus Self and Self Alone heresy has been the professed faith of the majority of the people in this country ever since Protestant denominational authority fell apart and marketing what Detrich Bonhoffer called ‘”cheap grace” took over during the 1960s.

How’s that working out ?


39 posted on 10/02/2013 7:34:30 PM PDT by Rashputin (Jesus Christ doesn't evacuate His troops, He leads them to victory.)
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To: Rashputin

Sorry, Rick Warren is not where He is at either.

Try again.


40 posted on 10/02/2013 7:54:45 PM PDT by jodyel
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To: Rashputin

You know, rash, when your eyes are finally open and you SEE Jesus...the sorrow you are going to feel for keeping a denominational war going will be great.

There is no Catholic or Protestant...there is only those who are filled with the Spirit of the Lord and those that are not. And those of us who are Spirit filled are trying to take as many to heaven with us as we can...instead of crying on and on about denomination.

Do you not know anything about how late the hour is? It is not about this country or that country anymore. It is about saving souls and gathering as many to Him as possible before it is too late.

There is a much bigger picture that Catholics cannot see and we are trying to change that. When Jesus says the way is narrow, it is even more narrow than we know. One billion Catholics is not narrow. Do you see my meaning?


41 posted on 10/02/2013 8:07:12 PM PDT by jodyel
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To: Salvation

A few papal quotes to start with:

Pope Adrian VI († 1523)

“If by the Roman Church you mean its head or pontiff, it is beyond question that he can err even in matters touching the faith. He does this when he teaches heresy by his own judgment or decretal. In truth, many Roman pontiffs were heretics. The last of them was Pope John XXII († 1334).” (Quaest. in IV Sent.; quoted in Viollet, Papal Infallibility and the Syllabus, 1908).*

Pope Innocent III († 1216)

“The pope should not flatter himself about his power, nor should he rashly glory in his honor and high estate, because the less he is judged by man, the more he is judged by God. Still the less can the Roman Pontiff glory, because he can be judged by men, or rather, can be shown to be already judged, if for example he should wither away into heresy, because “he who does not believe is already judged.” (St. John 3:18) In such a case it should be said of him: ‘If salt should lose its savour, it is good for nothing but to be cast out and trampled under foot by men.’” (Sermo 4)


42 posted on 10/03/2013 2:42:23 AM PDT by piusv
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To: jodyel

Just because one recognizes heretical statements by so-called popes does not mean one renders Traditional Catholicism heresy and walks away from it and joins some other heresy such as sola scriptura. Quite the contrary, one holds fast to it. This pope is saying things contrary to Traditional Catholicism. He is a Modernist and Modernism was condemned pre-Vatican II as heresy.


43 posted on 10/03/2013 3:42:06 AM PDT by piusv
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To: piusv

I see...well, good luck with that then.


44 posted on 10/03/2013 4:56:22 AM PDT by jodyel
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To: Obadiah; All
If anyone is hung up on the phraseology "everyone has their own idea of good and bad" remember two points:

One, that's translated from Italian to English. I'm sorry, but that's just a fact; it's also a fact the old cliche is true: things get lost in translation.

With that in mind, it's been Catholic teaching for ages that everyone is born with a conscience, with the law on their hearts (cf CCC 1954). This is everyone, atheists included. This fact is undoubtedly to what the Holy Father was referring. That is, he was clearly saying, "everyone has the ability to know what is basically good and basically bad. If everyone just followed this ability, the world would already be a better place"

Is he a bit "loose" with his words? Does he use terms in a non conventional way? Perhaps. And maybe that is a bad thing if all it does is cause confusion and scandal. I can see that and acknowledge that's a valid concern. I'm not saying that we shouldn't care at all about him being more precise. He is the Pope after all. Perhaps he should take more care.

However, how do I "know" this is what he was saying (what I wrote above)? Because he speaks a lot like we do in Communion and Liberation, an ecclesiastical lay movement in the Church, and you can rest assured, CL is not heterodox in any way. It's just another way of speaking. It's not formal in any way. But that's the point, as ours is a movement of true evangelization, going out into the world and meeting the people at their level, speaking about real things and real needs, not theological ideas and abstract concepts.

That's what real evangelism is anyway.

45 posted on 10/03/2013 5:41:01 AM PDT by FourtySeven (47)
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To: FourtySeven

Appreciate your thoughts. I like your optimism. I do hope you are accurate in your assessment.


46 posted on 10/03/2013 6:16:44 AM PDT by Obadiah (I Like Ted.)
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To: FourtySeven

Good post. I think others here (including myself) have been trying to communicate this, but none as successfully as you.


47 posted on 10/03/2013 6:27:26 AM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: FourtySeven

IOW: Do your own thing.

The Pope is a hippie from the seventies!


48 posted on 10/03/2013 8:16:10 AM PDT by miserare (Fire Eric Holder!)
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To: sitetest

Thanks.


49 posted on 10/03/2013 8:44:02 AM PDT by FourtySeven (47)
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