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Pope Francis v. Medjugorje?
Fr. Z's Blog ^ | 10-2-2013 | Fr. Z

Posted on 10/03/2013 6:24:01 AM PDT by mlizzy

Someone alerted me to a piece at the Italian site Corrispondenza Romana about something that Pope Francis said during a morning “fervorino” at Mass.

My translation:

Last Saturday 7 September during his morning meditation in the chapel of the Domus Sanctae Marthae, Pope Francis, speaking on the theme “there is no Christian without Jesus” criticized Christian “revelationists” and expressed his strong reservations about the supposed apparitions at Medjugorje.

The official site of the Holy See and the L’Osservatore Romano, however, purged his words of the reference to Medjugorje, confining itself to refer to them in these terms: “There is another group of Christians without Christ: those who look things that are kind of rare, a bit special, who chase after some private revelations,” whereas instead revelation was concluded with the New Testament. The Holy Father warned about the desire of such Christians to go “to the spectacle of revelation, to hear some new things”. But – and this is the exhortation that Pope directed to them – “Pick up the Gospel!”

Here’s the deal.

There isn’t an attribution here, a source, the name of the person who heard the Holy Father speak specifically about Medjugorje.

That said, if you are interested in Medjugorje in a positive way, I suggest that you get used to the idea that there may be an official pronouncement about it that you are not going to like. My spies used to tell me that the former Pope was not a supporter either.

I’m just saying.

Finally, the Holy Father doesn’t seem to be against apparitions in general. The Holy Father is a huge supporter of Aparecida and he will be welcoming the statue of Our Lady of Fatima in St. Peter’s Square on 12 October.

With that news, I will keep the combox closed. I’ll allow pingbacks. If I get interesting comments by email, I may post something… and I may not.


TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; Religion & Culture; Worship
KEYWORDS: catholic; medjugorje; pope; visionaries
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Just talking about Medjugorje yesterday with a friend of mine...
1 posted on 10/03/2013 6:24:01 AM PDT by mlizzy
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To: Mrs. Frogjerk

Hey, lookie at this...


2 posted on 10/03/2013 6:25:15 AM PDT by mlizzy (If people spent an hour a week in Eucharistic adoration, abortion would be ended. --Mother Teresa)
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To: mlizzy

Crazy Evangelicals like me don’t get into Mary revelations so sometimes they get bemused watching Catholics debate about particular ones. Still, is there even a Catholic system for telling phony ones from genuine ones, given that they do believe there ARE genuine ones? Sounds like Francis thinks Medjugorje is a likely phony. If there could be a real one, it seems to me that it would (1) give glory to God and (2) be accurate.


3 posted on 10/03/2013 6:44:02 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (The Lion of Judah will roar again if you give him a big hug and a cheer and mean it. See my page.)
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To: mlizzy

Thanks for sharing. Could get really interesting!


4 posted on 10/03/2013 6:51:07 AM PDT by Mrs. Frogjerk
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To: HiTech RedNeck

The Church goes over the apparitions with a fine-toothed comb, BUT only after they have stopped occurring. That’s the issue with Medjugorje; it has never “supposedly” ceased.


5 posted on 10/03/2013 6:53:28 AM PDT by mlizzy (If people spent an hour a week in Eucharistic adoration, abortion would be ended. --Mother Teresa)
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To: HiTech RedNeck

Yup, the Church is very skeptical when an apparition is reported. For good reason. If people get pulled into something like that, they tend to invest a lot into it and are severely harmed if an apparition is deemed to be false by the Church.

I don’t know the specifics, but the Church does investigate these apparitions thoroughly. It all depends on what the apparition says, eyewitness accounts, and if miracles have happened that can be directly attributed to that apparition. It’s all taken very seriously because the Church and it’s members can be scandalized if an apparition is deemed to be false.


6 posted on 10/03/2013 7:01:27 AM PDT by Mrs. Frogjerk
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To: Mrs. Frogjerk; High-tech Redneck

But what if the apparition is deemed to be false by God’s Word? Which is easy to verify, all you have to do is READ it, to find out what is of God and what is of satan.


7 posted on 10/03/2013 7:04:45 AM PDT by smvoice (The 2 greatest days of your life: the day you're born. And the day you discover why.)
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To: smvoice

“..what if the apparition is deemed to be false by God’s Word? ...all you have to do is READ it ...”

Precisely - that is the primary method an apparition is judged by.


8 posted on 10/03/2013 7:09:04 AM PDT by stonehouse01 (Equal rights for unborn women)
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To: stonehouse01

Oh, I must have been mistaken. I thought the post said THE CHURCH decides what is a “true” or “false” apparition.


9 posted on 10/03/2013 7:15:02 AM PDT by smvoice (The 2 greatest days of your life: the day you're born. And the day you discover why.)
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To: stonehouse01

Here’s an interesting article just to add to the discussion a bit.

http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1202151.htm


10 posted on 10/03/2013 7:17:43 AM PDT by Mrs. Frogjerk
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To: mlizzy

I went in 91, just before the war started.

Lot’s of faith building coming from there.

BUT, I’ve seen unnecessary distractions and disobediance from “the children” (all adults now). Making unauthorized and dubious publications.

It’s difficult to judge, because there are so many positive results from there, but I’m afraid it will simply remain unapproved and unjudge for a very long time.


11 posted on 10/03/2013 7:24:04 AM PDT by G Larry (Let his days be few; and let another take his office. Psalms 109:8)
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To: stonehouse01

The local authority (ie. the bishop) has jurisdiction in these matters. The bishops of Mostar-Dunvo have spoken quite plainly about Medjugorje, and it has been anything but positive.

Also, by their fruits you shall know them. There has been more than a lion’s share of disobedience here from the “seers” and their councilor (former) priest and a group of local Fransiscans who have blatantly disobeyed direction from the bishop. There is more, but I won’t go into any salacious details here.


12 posted on 10/03/2013 7:27:06 AM PDT by Graing ("The power of wind, fire... all that kind of thing")
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To: smvoice

“...thought the post said THE CHURCH ...”

The church uses scripture to determine the accuracy of an apparation. The Church is composed of people who read the bible as the basis for their beliefs.


13 posted on 10/03/2013 7:33:15 AM PDT by stonehouse01 (Equal rights for unborn women)
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To: HiTech RedNeck

Thanks but we do know that all Evangelicals still do as the Bible says “All generations will call me blessed” (Luke 1:48)... Oh wait.


14 posted on 10/03/2013 7:36:31 AM PDT by BeadCounter (Really? Syria?)
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To: G Larry
It’s difficult to judge, because there are so many positive results from there, but I’m afraid it will simply remain unapproved and unjudge for a very long time.
I hope you're not right, but since the apparitions keep on coming, what can they do? I used to be excited about them many, many, moons ago, BUT the visionaries kept on seeing and seeing, yet Mary's appearances [approved] have always been pretty short, so I became skeptical of them some time ago.
15 posted on 10/03/2013 7:39:52 AM PDT by mlizzy (If people spent an hour a week in Eucharistic adoration, abortion would be ended. --Mother Teresa)
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To: mlizzy
I used to be excited about them many, many, moons ago, BUT the visionaries kept on seeing and seeing, yet Mary's appearances [approved] have always been pretty short, so I became skeptical of them some time ago.

Short, you say?
Virgin Mary is 165 centimetres tall, a visionary says in a new book

16 posted on 10/03/2013 7:48:52 AM PDT by Alex Murphy (Just a common, ordinary, simple savior of America's destiny.)
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To: mlizzy; All

Here’s some good information : the English translation of Bishop Peric’s statements on the apparitions...

http://www.cbismo.com/index.php?mod=vijest&vijest=101


17 posted on 10/03/2013 7:50:06 AM PDT by Graing ("The power of wind, fire... all that kind of thing")
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To: stonehouse01; CynicalBear; metmom
But the Bible says that ISRAEL is God's "sign" people. THEY are the ones who seek a sign, a vision, an apparition. NOT the Church.

"For the JEWS require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom..". (1 Cor. 1:22).

The Church the BOdy of Christ is not Israel.

"NOW faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things NOT SEEN." (Heb. 11:1).

Special attention should be paid to that one little word: NOW. Meaning FROM THIS TIME FORWARD.

Signs appeal to the five senses of men and faith does NOT come from the 5 senses, AKA "the outward man". If faith is the "evidence of things NOT SEEN", and your church bases its doctrines of apparitions on things "SEEN", then obviously it cannot be from God. According to His Word.

18 posted on 10/03/2013 7:59:59 AM PDT by smvoice (The 2 greatest days of your life: the day you're born. And the day you discover why.)
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To: Alex Murphy
Mary's appearances [approved] have always been pretty short...

"Short, you say? Virgin Mary is 165 centimetres tall, a visionary says in a new book"
Ruh-roh, Alex... I guess you haven't seen our 'tiny Mary' yet... She's been twice-blessed [so far] by orthodox priests! Can you find her?
19 posted on 10/03/2013 8:10:59 AM PDT by mlizzy (If people spent an hour a week in Eucharistic adoration, abortion would be ended. --Mother Teresa)
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To: mlizzy

If there is a Madonna in that picture, I would say on the fence. Straight ahead.


20 posted on 10/03/2013 8:15:46 AM PDT by BeadCounter (Really? Syria?)
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To: smvoice

On my part, I had NO INTENTION of making this a typical Mary/Catholic-diss thread. I guess I should have caucused it; my fault. But I do hope you get distracted from this thread, and take your non-Catholic dissers with you. Go have some coffee, pray for Jim for God’s sake, work out, do some macrame...


21 posted on 10/03/2013 8:20:39 AM PDT by mlizzy (If people spent an hour a week in Eucharistic adoration, abortion would be ended. --Mother Teresa)
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To: mlizzy

I don’t see where it IS a “Mary/Catholic-diss thread”, mlizzy. I see where it is a God’s Word/Catholic Church’s word on apparitions, visions. Perhaps you knee-jerked too soon.


22 posted on 10/03/2013 8:24:01 AM PDT by smvoice (The 2 greatest days of your life: the day you're born. And the day you discover why.)
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To: BeadCounter; Alex Murphy
If there is a Madonna in that picture, I would say on the fence. Straight ahead.
Very good, bead. We're planning on an affordable grotto in that area, and while we'd love a statue as tall as 165 meters, we're going to have to go with "tiny Mary" for now... We ♥ her. :)
23 posted on 10/03/2013 8:25:49 AM PDT by mlizzy (If people spent an hour a week in Eucharistic adoration, abortion would be ended. --Mother Teresa)
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To: smvoice
I don’t see where it IS a “Mary/Catholic-diss thread”, mlizzy. I see where it is a God’s Word/Catholic Church’s word on apparitions, visions. Perhaps you knee-jerked too soon.
Yes, that's what you say now...
24 posted on 10/03/2013 8:27:34 AM PDT by mlizzy (If people spent an hour a week in Eucharistic adoration, abortion would be ended. --Mother Teresa)
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To: mlizzy

Maybe you should wait to see before you judge, mlizzy. Not very Christ-like.


25 posted on 10/03/2013 8:28:49 AM PDT by smvoice (The 2 greatest days of your life: the day you're born. And the day you discover why.)
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To: smvoice
Okay, so I suck as a Christian; that doesn't mean I still don't want you to get distracted from this thread...

Boo!
26 posted on 10/03/2013 8:33:39 AM PDT by mlizzy (If people spent an hour a week in Eucharistic adoration, abortion would be ended. --Mother Teresa)
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To: mlizzy
LOL! OK, THAT was funny!

I'm FORCED to stay on the thread now, waiting for laughs :)

27 posted on 10/03/2013 8:35:01 AM PDT by smvoice (The 2 greatest days of your life: the day you're born. And the day you discover why.)
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To: mlizzy

Bump.


28 posted on 10/03/2013 8:37:25 AM PDT by fatima (Free Hugs Today :))
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To: smvoice

“..if faith is the evidence of things NOT SEEN, ...”

Faith = Pistis (hebrew) fides (Latin) and they translate as steadfastness, i.e., trust.

Just because the Jews required a sign, etc., does not mean that there will never be another sign, it simply means that a sign will not be necessary after Christ’s witness on the cross.

Indeed, now (after Christ) faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of thing not seen. Just because further miracles are no longer necessary for faith does not mean that further miracles, supernatural events, etc., are never going to happen.

Supernatural events and miracles have never ceased occurring. That is the reason that one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is discernment.

God has not stopped providing miracles.


29 posted on 10/03/2013 8:50:31 AM PDT by stonehouse01 (Equal rights for unborn women)
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To: HiTech RedNeck

Catholics don’t have to believe in Apparitions.I do like Fatima and have spoke to a few eye witnesses.


30 posted on 10/03/2013 8:54:04 AM PDT by fatima (Free Hugs Today :))
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To: Mrs. Frogjerk
Thanks for that article, Mrs. Frogjerk. In it, it says:
In his note, Cardinal Levada quoted the pope saying "The criterion for judging the truth of a private revelation is its orientation to Christ himself," in that it doesn't lead people away from Jesus, but urges them toward closer communion with Christ and the Gospel.
I remember my b-i-l (at the very beginning stages of Medg.) saying, "Why do people go there when Jesus is only steps away [at their own parishes]?" I remember thinking he was being a bit harsh, but now, I feel the same way. Mothers leave their children year after year [and I personally know of them], for their husbands to take care of, while they gallivant across the globe [oftentimes in a group], spending thousands of dollars, to see nothing more than a purported "vision." While Christ is darn-near 'literally' knocking at their own doors. I hope the Pope is able to make some sort of [louder] call on this; he doesn't seem to mince words, so maybe he will.
31 posted on 10/03/2013 8:56:01 AM PDT by mlizzy (If people spent an hour a week in Eucharistic adoration, abortion would be ended. --Mother Teresa)
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To: stonehouse01

How do account for the “signs, wonders and miracles” of Pentecost, if signs were not “necessary after Christ’s witness on the cross”? And just WHO was Peter preaching to, on that day? And just WHAT was he preaching? And WHO was performing those signs, wonders, and miracles? And IF you answer those questions BY GOD’S WORD, then what happened after Acts 28, when Israel was temporarily blinded and set aside by God? And, BTW, WHY did Peter preach only a PART of Joel’s prophecy? There is a reason, and it’s found in God’s Word.


32 posted on 10/03/2013 9:05:56 AM PDT by smvoice (The 2 greatest days of your life: the day you're born. And the day you discover why.)
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To: mlizzy

I would tend to be skeptical of Medjugorje but I’ve got a buddy and he’s absolutely sold on it and has been a number of times, he’s really into it.


33 posted on 10/03/2013 9:06:17 AM PDT by BeadCounter (Really? Syria?)
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To: Graing
Yes, a lot of good information at that link. Thank you!
34 posted on 10/03/2013 9:07:02 AM PDT by mlizzy (If people spent an hour a week in Eucharistic adoration, abortion would be ended. --Mother Teresa)
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To: mlizzy; smvoice
I remember my b-i-l (at the very beginning stages of Medg.) saying, "Why do people go there when Jesus is only steps away [at their own parishes]?" I remember thinking he was being a bit harsh, but now, I feel the same way. Mothers leave their children year after year [and I personally know of them], for their husbands to take care of, while they gallivant across the globe [oftentimes in a group], spending thousands of dollars, to see nothing more than a purported "vision." While Christ is darn-near 'literally' knocking at their own doors.

Leaving our differences on transubstantiation aside, I completely agree with you on "gallivanting across the globe" as if Christ is "over there" somehow moreso than He is present with us.

35 posted on 10/03/2013 9:07:03 AM PDT by Alex Murphy (Just a common, ordinary, simple savior of America's destiny.)
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To: Alex Murphy; mlizzy

AMEN, to both of you on THAT point


36 posted on 10/03/2013 9:08:43 AM PDT by smvoice (The 2 greatest days of your life: the day you're born. And the day you discover why.)
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To: fatima

I read the book “Meet the Witnesses” and it was convincing: http://www.amazon.com/Meet-Witnesses-John-M-Haffert/product-reviews/1890137561

Still, sometimes it seems Fatima happened just before broadcasting, the advent of radio. I know the NY Times actually published a story on it back in the day, wish they’d actually sent a reporter.


37 posted on 10/03/2013 9:09:21 AM PDT by BeadCounter (Really? Syria?)
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To: mlizzy

Garabandal is interesting,

Con: I think there is actual film of the girls running backwards and going backwards I’m not sure is a good sign. But I’ve seen the actual film footage, it almost defies gravity.

Pro: How that one Priest, Father Andreau, seemed to have seen the vision and miracle too and died on the way home from the vision that day. The story is here: http://www.mysticsofthechurch.com/2010/06/fr-luis-andreu-priest-who-died-of-joy.html

To me, one of these visions, Garabandal or Medjugorje should have panned out by now, they have been around for so long.

Still, the story of Father Andreau is perplexing. I think at Garabandal, they experienced something supernatural but we don’t know if it was good or evil.

Good reading on Garabandal here: http://www.unitypublishing.com/Apparitions/Garabandal2.html

Not saying I agree totally with the author Rick and all of his themes and essays but he is interesting.


38 posted on 10/03/2013 9:16:31 AM PDT by BeadCounter (Really? Syria?)
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To: BeadCounter; mlizzy

Thank you for posting those links. See, mlizzy, I’m going to go to those links and STUDY them for awhile. Will you miss me while I’m gone:)


39 posted on 10/03/2013 9:20:07 AM PDT by smvoice (The 2 greatest days of your life: the day you're born. And the day you discover why.)
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To: Alex Murphy
Leaving our differences on transubstantiation aside, I completely agree with you on "gallivanting across the globe" as if Christ is "over there" somehow moreso than He is present with us.
Yes! And you're out four figures to boot. We could purchase a really-nice [right there around 165 centimeter] Mary [for the front yard, while "tiny Mary" watches over the back] with a similar amount. Madonna of the Prairie

But.. "Everybody swings in their own bag," as my mother used to repeatedly say [peace be upon her].
40 posted on 10/03/2013 9:20:23 AM PDT by mlizzy (If people spent an hour a week in Eucharistic adoration, abortion would be ended. --Mother Teresa)
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To: smvoice
Will you miss me while I’m gone:)
Depart in peace, and take your time... :)
41 posted on 10/03/2013 9:22:51 AM PDT by mlizzy (If people spent an hour a week in Eucharistic adoration, abortion would be ended. --Mother Teresa)
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To: BeadCounter
I would tend to be skeptical of Medjugorje but I’ve got a buddy and he’s absolutely sold on it and has been a number of times, he’s really into it.
We do too, and as a group, they can be really defensive. I don't remember [personally] anyone reacting this way regarding Lourdes, Fatima...

We wouldn't mind going to Lourdes, though, as it's approved, IF we lived in France. Here's a wonderful link [frequently live] to Lourdes: http://en.lourdes-france.org/tv-lourdes/
42 posted on 10/03/2013 9:33:03 AM PDT by mlizzy (If people spent an hour a week in Eucharistic adoration, abortion would be ended. --Mother Teresa)
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To: BeadCounter

I think they did but not sure.I think it was around the time of the World Series so the article was deeper in the paper.It was covered by the local papers.I spoke with Jacinta’s and Francesco’s brother John and his wife and also Lucia’s Mom’s Sister.They all saw it.


43 posted on 10/03/2013 9:33:25 AM PDT by fatima (Free Hugs Today :))
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To: mlizzy
WELL, HE GOT ONE THING RIGHT (probably)
44 posted on 10/03/2013 9:34:52 AM PDT by steve86 (Some things aren't really true but you wouldn't be half surprised if they were.)
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To: smvoice

God’s miracles have not ceased - you have precisely backed up my point. By not necessary, I meant that they weren’t required as Christ’s death on the cross was enough for everyone’s faith.


45 posted on 10/03/2013 10:00:17 AM PDT by stonehouse01 (Equal rights for unborn women)
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To: mlizzy

...”wouldn’t mind going to Lourdes...”

My daughter who has a serious bone marrow disease (aplastic anemia) and I went to Lourdes in 2006 and it was absolutely amazing. I strongly recommend it. She took the baths twice (they are very cold and to have a 6 year old voluntarily request a second bath is quite amazing). I have no doubt that she is alive and stable today partly due to that pilgrimage. She still needs everyone prayers though - her blood counts have taken a hit lately.

We filled up a jug with water from the spring and still use it to this day. Despite not being refreigerated, it is as pure and cold as the day we collected it.


46 posted on 10/03/2013 10:06:29 AM PDT by stonehouse01 (Equal rights for unborn women)
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To: steve86

Funny, Steve... -lol-


47 posted on 10/03/2013 10:08:16 AM PDT by mlizzy (If people spent an hour a week in Eucharistic adoration, abortion would be ended. --Mother Teresa)
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To: stonehouse01
Wonderful about your daughter, and continuing prayers for her too. Does she speak of the visit, now that she's a little older? Does she remember the cold bath? I knew another family that had "the jug" too, and she allowed me some of the holy water.

I don't remember how many times I've watched Song of Bernadette, but it's been quite a few. Beautiful, spectacular apparition, I agree. So..many..miracles..
48 posted on 10/03/2013 10:17:22 AM PDT by mlizzy (If people spent an hour a week in Eucharistic adoration, abortion would be ended. --Mother Teresa)
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To: mlizzy

I know what you mean! We have a perpetual adoration chapel attached to our Church. If a person wants to spend some time with our Lord, they can sit their behinds on a chair and pray. You don’t have to go to Bosnia for crying out loud! I dare to say that if a persons faith absolutely requires that an apparition of Our Blessed Mother be legit, than they need to pray for more faith!


49 posted on 10/03/2013 10:32:13 AM PDT by Mrs. Frogjerk
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To: BeadCounter

Oh, of course she is called blessed. She’s in the bible that we read. We call her blessed in the same manner the 1st century church did (if all generations will, then they are included). Not according to 3rd century plus add ons.


50 posted on 10/03/2013 10:38:43 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (The Lion of Judah will roar again if you give him a big hug and a cheer and mean it. See my page.)
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