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Present Tribulation vs. Future Tribulation
bibleprophecyblog.com ^ | July 6, 2011 | Dr. Thomas Ice

Posted on 10/04/2013 2:11:50 PM PDT by jodyel

Present Tribulation vs. Future Tribulation, Dr. Thomas Ice

Over the years I have noticed an argument against pretribulationism which goes something like the following: "The New Testament teaches that we will suffer persecution and tribulation as followers of Christ, therefore, I believe the Church will go through the tribulation." The New Testament does teach that Believers will suffer persecution and tribulation, but it does not follow that because of this the Church will go through the tribulation.

Church Age Tribulation

Jesus clearly teaches that the Church Age, before the rapture and the tribulation, would be a time in which Believers would experience "tribulation" from the world. Jesus said,

"If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you, 'A slave is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also" (John 15:18-20).

"These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world" (John 16:33).

It is said of the Apostles in the early Church:

"So they went on their way from the presence of the Council, rejoicing that they had been considered worthy to suffer shame for His name" (Acts 5:41).

Later it was also said,

"strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying, 'Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God'" (Acts 14:22).

Paul tells us,

"For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake" (Phil. 1:29).

Paul wrote in his farewell epistle,

"Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted" (2 Tim. 3:12).

Peter noted the following:

"But to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing; so that also at the revelation of His glory, you may rejoice with exultation" (1 Pet. 4:13).

Therefore, there is a clear biblical basis for expecting Church Age persecution from the world toward believers.

Gerald Stanton declares the following about Church Age tribulation:

And one has but to think of Christians being thrown to the lions in a Roman arena, or Christians being torn on the racks of a Spanish Inquisition, or Christians today being put to death in godless Communistic lands to realize that believers have undergone fiery trials down through the years since the days of the early church. Such persecutions with their untold agony, no matter how severe, are nevertheless not "the great tribulation." If they were, one could hardly read Fox's Book of Martyrs without concluding that there have been two or three "great tribulations" every century from the time of Christ.

Down through the centuries, believers have suffered, bled, and died for their faith in Christ, counting it not loss to seal their testimony with their blood. [1]

I have read from various sources that at least 100,000 believers die each year throughout the world in our own day and age, not to mention the various levels of persecution short of death that goes on as well. These are the Church Age tribulations that the New Testament speaks of in relation to believers throughout the entire dispensation of the Church.

The point is that non-pretribulationists believe that future tribulation during the seven-year tribulation is basically more of the same kind of persecution that has been going on for the last two thousand years. On the other hand, pretribulationists believe that the Bible indicates that tribulation during the future seven-years will be something that has never been seen before, it will be the judgment from God upon a Christ-rejecting world. What has been going on since the founding of the Church about two thousand years ago has been the animosity of Satan, his demons and the hatred of the unbelieving world, not the wrath of God.

The Tribulation

The tribulation, which is spoken of dozens of times with various labels like "day of the Lord," time of "wrath," "the tribulation," etc., is mentioned throughout the Bible. Some of the many references include passages throughout almost all of the prophets, the Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24:4, 28; Mark 13:3, 23), and most of the Book of Revelation (4-19). That time is referred to throughout Revelation as the wrath of the Lamb or God. Note the following: "the wrath of the Lamb" (6:16); "for the great day of their wrath has come" (6:17); [God's] "Thy wrath" (11:18); "he will also drink of the wine of the wrath of God" (14:10); "and threw them into the great wine press of the wrath of God" (14:19); "seven plagues, which are the last, because in them the wrath of God is finished" (15:1); "seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God" (15:7); "Go and pour out the seven bowls of the wrath of God into the earth" (16:1); "Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath" (16:19); "He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God" (19:15).

It is quite clear in the biblical text that tribulation is a time of God's wrath, not of mankind or of Satan. Scripture speaks of some episodes of Satan and the world against God's people, but the emphasis is clearly upon the wrath of God throughout. In fact, throughout the tribulation there is first a fourth of the earth's population that is killed (Rev. 6:8), then a third is killed (Rev. 9:18), and finally, by the end, all unbelievers are killed (Matt. 13:40, 43; 25:31, 46; Rev. 19:11, 16). Obviously, these passages speak of a time unlike anything that has ever happened throughout the Church Age. Kept from the Hour

Clearly the New Testament teaches that the Church will be kept from the time of God's wrath. Paul, in one of his earliest epistles makes note of this fact as follows:

"...and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come" (1 Thess. 1:10).

In the same epistle he says,

"For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess. 5:9).

Paul assumes the much used Old Testament term "wrath" to mean what it does in the Old Testament, which is the time of God's wrath or the tribulation period when God's wrath will be poured out upon the earth. Thus, these two passages, which speak of a future time different than the current Church Age which they were in, clearly see that wrath occurring during the tribulation. Therefore, the Thessalonian believers and all Church Age believers have a promise from God that we will not experience the wrath of God. A similar point is made from Paul's statement in Romans 5:9.

Revelation 3:10 says,

"Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell upon the earth."

This promise made to the Church of Philadelphia and thus all believers throughout the Church Age promises that we will be kept out of the time of the tribulation. This passage has very clear pre-trib implications. The "hour" or "time" of testing is what believers will be kept from. Further, the hour of testing is said to be something that will in the future come upon the whole earth. Thus, it is clear that it is not something that has happened during the days of the Church Age, since no one knows of a global testing that came upon the whole earth since the first century. John speaks in this passage of the tribulation period, which is clearly a time in which the Lord will test the earth dwellers (always persistent unbelievers throughout Revelation) and not Church Age believers. The passage makes it clear that the present Church Age is when the Church is being tested and that is the reason given for why we will be exempted from the time period when God will test the earth dwellers during the period we know as the tribulation.

Conclusion

The Bible distinguishes between trials and tribulations that are destined to occur to Believers during the Church Age from the wrath of God, which will be poured out during the tribulation that is intended for the world. To say that the Church will go through the tribulation because the Bible predicts that Believers will experience tribulation is an erroneous statement in light of the Bible's distinction between present and future tribulation. It is also more likely for an American, who has not experience persecution yet, to think that we must, since America has a different history in relation to Christianity than is common throughout the Church Age.

I have often heard Dr. Ed Hindson make an excellent analogy concerning this issue. He says that having the Church, which is pictured in the New Testament as the Bride of Christ, go through the tribulation is like a man taking a girl to whom he is engaged and beating her to the point of near death and then saying, "Hey babe, let's get married." Such behavior would rightly be thought to be crazy. The New Testament clearly teaches that Christ marries the Bride in heaven (Rev. 19:7-10) before she accompanies Him to earth. She is already in heaven since she was raptured before the tribulation in order to experience the judgment seat of Christ during the tribulation. Therefore she is ready, married and victoriously returning to earth at the second coming with Christ (Rev. 19:11-21). Only the pre-trib scenario makes sense of the details, thus demonstrating that the belief that the Church needs to go through the wrath of the tribulation is a false conclusion. Maranatha!

Endnotes

[1] Gerald B. Stanton, Kept from the Hour: A Systematic Study of the Rapture in Bible Prophecy (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1956), pp. 33-34.


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Long, but well worth reading.
1 posted on 10/04/2013 2:11:50 PM PDT by jodyel
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To: jodyel

Very interesting, and convincing, points made. Thanks.


2 posted on 10/04/2013 2:24:39 PM PDT by fwdude ( You cannot compromise with that which you must defeat.)
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Comment #3 Removed by Moderator

To: jodyel

Thanks, good exposition.


4 posted on 10/04/2013 2:26:47 PM PDT by mrsmel (One Who Can See)
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To: fwdude

There was some discussion awhile back and some were holding to post-trib so I thought it might be a good idea to post re: pre-trib which is the view I hold.

Glad you enjoyed.


5 posted on 10/04/2013 2:26:56 PM PDT by jodyel
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To: F15Eagle

Have never met him or Dr. Ice.

And they hold their prophecy conference every year around Christmas time, I think, in the Dallas area where I live. I should attend one year.


6 posted on 10/04/2013 2:29:16 PM PDT by jodyel
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To: jodyel

I believe that the pre-trib position is the correct one, too.

The author makes an excellent point which I, and I’m sure many others of opposing views, never thought of. What is the difference between the tribulations experienced by believers throughout the Church Age and that in the Seven-Year Tribulation? Is it just a matter of degree? If so, what were the Christians under the exceedingly cruel Roman Emperor Nero? Chopped liver?

Christians have been skinned alive, tortured at length, fed to wild beast, cast out of society, and countless other indignities and cruelties to mention. How can it get any worse under the Anti-Christ?

The obvious answer is that the trials endured by Church-Age Christians are imposed by a pagan, god-hating world. The sufferings that will be inflicted on humanity during the Great Tribulation will be by God himself, using the instrument of the Anti-Christ as a bludgeon against Israel until the time of their deliverance.


7 posted on 10/04/2013 2:37:55 PM PDT by fwdude ( You cannot compromise with that which you must defeat.)
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To: jodyel
Only the pre-trib scenario makes sense of the details, thus demonstrating that the belief that the Church needs to go through the wrath of the tribulation is a false conclusion. Maranatha!

A B C

Enoch

Book 1: Watchers
Chapter 1

1 The words of the blessing of Enoch, wherewith he blessed the elect and righteous, who will be 2 living in the day of tribulation, when all the wicked and godless are to be removed. And he took up his parable and said -Enoch a righteous man, whose eyes were opened by God, saw the vision of the Holy One in the heavens, which the angels showed me, and from them I heard everything, and from them I understood as I saw, but not for this generation, but for a remote one which is for to come.

3 Concerning the elect I said, and took up my parable concerning them: The Holy Great One will come forth from His dwelling, 4 And the eternal God will tread upon the earth, (even) on Mount Sinai, [And appear from His camp] And appear in the strength of His might from the heaven of heavens. 5 And all shall be smitten with fear And the Watchers shall quake, And great fear and trembling shall seize them unto the ends of the earth. 6 And the high mountains shall be shaken, And the high hills shall be made low, And shall melt like wax before the flame 7 And the earth shall be wholly rent in sunder, And all that is upon the earth shall perish, And there shall be a judgement upon all (men).

8 But with the righteous He will make peace. And will protect the elect, And mercy shall be upon them. And they shall all belong to God, And they shall be prospered, And they shall all be blessed. And He will help them all, And light shall appear unto them, And He will make peace with them'. 9 And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones To execute judgement upon all, And to destroy all the ungodly: And to convict all flesh Of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed, And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.

And...

Matthew 13

The Parable of the Tares Explained

36 Then Yeshua sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.” 37 He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.

40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

See: Malachi 4, Daniel 7:21, Jude 1:14, Revelation 13:7, etc...

Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

Buckle up! Cuz the ride just gets wilder!
John Lennon

8 posted on 10/04/2013 2:46:20 PM PDT by Jeremiah Jr (EL CHaI)
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To: fwdude

Yes, and I have to admit that had never occurred to me...but it should have.

We are being taken out of the world and being spared God’s wrath on the unbelieving world.

Hallelujah!


9 posted on 10/04/2013 2:58:53 PM PDT by jodyel
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To: jodyel
Over the years I have noticed an argument against pretribulationism which goes something like the following: "The New Testament teaches that we will suffer persecution and tribulation as followers of Christ, therefore, I believe the Church will go through the tribulation." The New Testament does teach that Believers will suffer persecution and tribulation, but it does not follow that because of this the Church will go through the tribulation.

...

The point is that non-pretribulationists believe that future tribulation during the seven-year tribulation is basically more of the same kind of persecution that has been going on for the last two thousand years.

Statements like that make me think Ice really doesn't understand what the other side is saying.

10 posted on 10/04/2013 3:34:46 PM PDT by Lee N. Field ("You keep using that verse, but I do not think it means what you think it means.")
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To: fwdude

What of an abomination of desolation set up in 688 (dome of the rock) and the prophetic 1948 and 1967 tie in to those with daniel and revelation and that date of 688?


11 posted on 10/04/2013 3:45:19 PM PDT by delchiante
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To: Lee N. Field

What does the other side say then?


12 posted on 10/04/2013 3:55:20 PM PDT by jodyel
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To: jodyel

Real quick. Bible says the dead in Christ shall rise first then those who remain. And the dead are the first to leave. We will not preceed them! When? At the last trump. The seventh (last) trump (et) is fairly close to the end of the 3 and 1/2 year Great tribulation. The apostles (except one) all had their lives ended horribly. Most of the prophets met an untimely end. If you are NOT raptured before all comes to pass make sure you are not decieved by any of the miracles designed by the antichrist.
BTW, the rapture theory has only been around a little over a hundred years.
Jus’ sayin’.


13 posted on 10/04/2013 4:03:27 PM PDT by wheat_grinder
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To: jodyel

You will be spared Yahweh’s wrath. But that wrath is not poured out until the end of the trib.


14 posted on 10/04/2013 4:03:27 PM PDT by wheat_grinder
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To: wheat_grinder; jodyel

Actually the “rapture theory” has been around since the Apostle Paul. He wrote about what was the future of the Church the Body of Christ.


15 posted on 10/04/2013 4:06:36 PM PDT by smvoice (HELP! I'm trapped inside this body and I can't get out!)
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To: wheat_grinder

Did you miss the point, wheat, about the Tribulation being about God’s wrath and not tribulations and persecutions from man or satan?

It is an important distinction.


16 posted on 10/04/2013 4:18:25 PM PDT by jodyel
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To: wheat_grinder

See you caught it here.


17 posted on 10/04/2013 4:23:23 PM PDT by jodyel
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To: jodyel

“What does the other side say then?”

Uh no. Do you really believe that the church that has been martyred for 2000 years will skip out at the last minute? It will be tough to show which one of you so called christians will keep the faith and not accept the mark of the beast. Only through persecution will we know the true bride of christ.

Please look at the Feast of Trumpets. Are you at the first or the last trumpet? Do you know Torah? Or just some doctrine that was thought up in the 1900’s to make christians feel better. But at the end gold is refined by fire.

By the way. I’m a christian and I will not take the mark of the beast. But when Obama creates a crisis and the SHTF what do you think the the RFID chip is? If you take it good luck going before the throne of Christ.

So if you are waiting for the rapture train better hope it comes and takes you before Barry Soetoro and the globalists start trading RFID chips/food for your guns and your silver and gold.


18 posted on 10/04/2013 4:35:15 PM PDT by Georgia Girl 2 (The only purpose of a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should never have dropped.)
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To: jodyel

Pre Trib Rapture is the only thing that fits what scripture teaches.


19 posted on 10/04/2013 4:37:29 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: Georgia Girl 2

Glad you know everything, Georgia Girl 2...that’s a load off my mind. lol

No idea where you guys come up with this stuff.

Did you read the part that says the church is raptured and is not subject to God’s wrath? That would be the salient point.


20 posted on 10/04/2013 4:38:46 PM PDT by jodyel
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To: delchiante

Are you a preterist who believes the end-time prophesies have already been fulfilled?


21 posted on 10/04/2013 4:39:57 PM PDT by fwdude ( You cannot compromise with that which you must defeat.)
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To: CynicalBear

Yep, just wish we weren’t always preaching to the choir, my friend.

Do any of these people ever actually crack open a bible and read it?


22 posted on 10/04/2013 4:40:37 PM PDT by jodyel
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To: Georgia Girl 2; jodyel
>> Uh no. Do you really believe that the church that has been martyred for 2000 years will skip out at the last minute?<<

No, they won’t “skip out”. They will be taken up by Christ. True, faithful, believers have never been subjected to God’s wrath in any way.

23 posted on 10/04/2013 4:41:17 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: CynicalBear

I’m puzzled as to how anyone can see it any other way. Where do they get that from?


24 posted on 10/04/2013 4:42:12 PM PDT by jodyel
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To: jodyel
>>Do any of these people ever actually crack open a bible and read it?<<

Not with a prior prayer to the Holy Spirit for guidance and understanding I fear.

25 posted on 10/04/2013 4:43:26 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: jodyel

Sorry I think Pre Trib is a bunch of BS. Its still a semi free contry though so we can all have an opinion. But not for long. Better start thinking about whether you will hold your little kid’s wrist out for the chip when the SHTF (prolly soon) and you have no food stored up so you are down at the football stadium at the mercy of the govt. Its OK with me. We won’t be there or taking the chip so not our problem.


26 posted on 10/04/2013 4:44:45 PM PDT by Georgia Girl 2 (The only purpose of a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should never have dropped.)
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To: wheat_grinder
BTW, the rapture theory has only been around a little over a hundred years.

Um... It's been around since Christ mentioned it.

27 posted on 10/04/2013 4:45:34 PM PDT by fwdude ( You cannot compromise with that which you must defeat.)
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To: jodyel

If you’re waiting for the tribulation, you’re too late.


28 posted on 10/04/2013 4:47:12 PM PDT by Hoodat (BENGHAZI - 4 KILLED, 2 MIA)
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To: jodyel

Same old half-way arguments.

The most definitive evidence is Yehova’s Fall Feasts, and the words of Paul “At the last trump” which describe only one particular time.

The tribulation wouldn’t be a tribulation if Satan didn’t have any of Yeshua’s sheep to tribulate.

The wrath that we are to be protected from comes after the tribulation, when Yeshua returns with his angels and his bride to apply the wrath of Yehova upon the world.

The trib and the wrath are clearly two different periods.


29 posted on 10/04/2013 4:47:32 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: CynicalBear; jodyel
Pre Trib Rapture is the only thing that fits what scripture teaches.

I attended Bible college back in the 70s. One of the classes was on the book of Revelation. The professor was an amillennialist. All through the course, he presented his views as we study the Scripture. There was no test at the end, but we had to write a paper.

I did a lot of Bible study and had given it a lot of thought. So the title of my paper was “a pre-millennial response to the heresy of amillennialism”. When I got back my paper, it had a big A+ written at the top. He laughingly told me that while he still didn't agree, I have presented the case pretty well.

But, in the end, it's really just counting how many angels on the head of a pin. There's enough Scripture to let us know that it really doesn't matter when, or where, that the only thing important is to know we'll be there with Him in the end. Until then, it's interesting for debate, but it's better to spend the time preaching Christ crucified! The Gospel is the message, and all the rest is just something to talk about…

30 posted on 10/04/2013 4:48:11 PM PDT by WVKayaker ("The only place that the left hasn't placed the blame is on their agenda..." -Sarah Palin)
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To: jodyel
>>I’m puzzled as to how anyone can see it any other way. Where do they get that from?<<

From the organizations they belong to. Most just apply what that organization gives them to scripture rather than “searching scripture daily to see if what they say is true”. I grew up in one of those organizations. Always had questions they didn’t seem to be able to answer that matched what scripture said. That got be doubtful about what they taught and I began a lifelong investigation of scripture with prayer to the Holy Spirit for guidance and understanding. It didn’t take long to realize that the organizations that had there start in the RCC were only slightly less in error than the RCC itself.

If people only rely on what those organizations teach they are going to be rudely awakened one day soon.

31 posted on 10/04/2013 4:49:54 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: fwdude; wheat_grinder

>> “BTW, the rapture theory has only been around a little over a hundred years.” <<

.
The “First Resurrection” has been in view for the future since Yeshua began his 70 week ministry on Earth for sure.


32 posted on 10/04/2013 4:50:53 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: Georgia Girl 2; jodyel
>>We won’t be there or taking the chip so not our problem.<<

We won’t be here. We’ll be in heaven with Christ.

33 posted on 10/04/2013 4:53:59 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: Hoodat; jodyel

>> “If you’re waiting for the tribulation, you’re too late.” <<

.
What????

Satan died and its been cancelled?

Try again!


34 posted on 10/04/2013 4:54:36 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: editor-surveyor; jodyel
>>The trib and the wrath are clearly two different periods.<<

No, they are not. The tribulation period of seven years is the wrath of God on this world. I would suggest you pray for guidance and understanding from the Holy Spirit.

35 posted on 10/04/2013 4:56:35 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: CynicalBear; Georgia Girl 2; jodyel

>> “We won’t be here. We’ll be in heaven with Christ” <<

.
If that were true, he wouldn’t have advised on the importance of avoiding the mark, nor told of those that suffered for refusing it. (or offered an excuse for those marked against their will)


36 posted on 10/04/2013 4:57:47 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: WVKayaker; jodyel
>>Until then, it's interesting for debate, but it's better to spend the time preaching Christ crucified!<<

Some still need milk others have grown to include meat.

37 posted on 10/04/2013 4:58:58 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: CynicalBear

“We won’t be here. We’ll be in heaven with Christ”

Better 911 the rapture train as Barry Soetoro aka the Man of Perdition is going to be revving up the chip parade real soon in a neighborhood near you.


38 posted on 10/04/2013 5:02:17 PM PDT by Georgia Girl 2 (The only purpose of a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should never have dropped.)
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To: editor-surveyor; Georgia Girl 2; jodyel
>>If that were true, he wouldn’t have advised on the importance of avoiding the mark, nor told of those that suffered for refusing it. (or offered an excuse for those marked against their will)<<

There will be many who realize after the rapture what they missed and that they still have a chance at eternal life but will definitely die for their faith and then there are the 144,000 Jews who will live through it.

39 posted on 10/04/2013 5:03:08 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: CynicalBear

There is no dying for your faith after the church is taken out. You will have missed the train.


40 posted on 10/04/2013 5:05:41 PM PDT by Georgia Girl 2 (The only purpose of a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should never have dropped.)
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To: Georgia Girl 2; jodyel
... Better start thinking about whether you will hold your little kid’s wrist out for the chip when the SHTF (prolly soon) and you have no food stored up so you are down at the football stadium at the mercy of the govt. ... GG2

****

Matthew 6: 25 “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes? 26 Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27 Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life?

28 “And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith? 31 So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

41 posted on 10/04/2013 5:05:43 PM PDT by WVKayaker ("The only place that the left hasn't placed the blame is on their agenda..." -Sarah Palin)
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To: CynicalBear

The scriptures clearly say the trib is 3.5 years, beginning when the abomination stands on the holy place. That is prophesied to occur at Purim, and continue to Yom Teruah, 3.5 years later.

(Haman was the first to proclaim an annihilation of the Jews)

The guidance from Yehova is found in writing in the prophecies contained in his feasts which were commanded for “all the nations.”

If you do pray for that guidance, he surely will guide you to them.


42 posted on 10/04/2013 5:05:48 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: Georgia Girl 2

God only knows the timing but you are right that the signs are all in place. Fear not, God will not subject those who are His faithful to His wrath. The “mark of the beast” will be long after we true believers are out of here. The anti Christ will not even be revealed untill we are gone.


43 posted on 10/04/2013 5:06:08 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: editor-surveyor

Jesus told that generation that these things would happen in their day. I take Him at His word.


44 posted on 10/04/2013 5:10:26 PM PDT by Hoodat (BENGHAZI - 4 KILLED, 2 MIA)
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To: WVKayaker; Georgia Girl 2; jodyel

>> “Matthew 6: 25 “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear...” <<

.
Matthew 6 is not advise for the trib, any more than it is for our entire lives. He describes how his true sheep are to live. We are to be givers, not dependent takers from the world.


45 posted on 10/04/2013 5:12:21 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: Hoodat

You’re going to have to read his word more completely if you are to “take him at his word.”


46 posted on 10/04/2013 5:14:07 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: CynicalBear

It will not be God but the Anti Christ and Satan that will persecute the believers. Even Lazarus felt the true taste of death and I have not seen him walking around lately. We will all have the possibility of tasting death. But even if we do die in the fight we will be martyrs and be lifted up to the judgement seat and the great throne room. We will return with Christ for the millenial reign.


47 posted on 10/04/2013 5:16:05 PM PDT by Georgia Girl 2 (The only purpose of a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should never have dropped.)
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To: Georgia Girl 2
>> There is no dying for your faith after the church is taken out.<<

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

The “church”, those who are true Spirit filled believers will be taken out prior to the last seven years God deals with the nation of Israel called the tribulation. It’s what is referred to as Daniels 70th week and the “day of the Lord” (Isaiah 2:12; 13:6, 9; Joel 1:15, 2:1, 11, 31, 3:14; 1 Thessalonians 5:2), trouble or tribulation (Deuteronomy 4:30; Zephaniah 1:15), Great Tribulation, which refers to the more intense second half of the 7-year period (Matthew 24:21), time or day of trouble (Daniel 12:1; Zephaniah 1:15) and time of Jacob's trouble (Jeremiah 30:7)

After the rapture the anti Christ will sign a seven year treaty with Israel which will be that seven years of tribulation the last three and one half called the “great tribulation” during which the anti Christ will be set up in the new Temple proclaiming himself God. .

48 posted on 10/04/2013 5:16:50 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: editor-surveyor

“If that were true, he wouldn’t have advised on the importance of avoiding the mark, nor told of those that suffered for refusing it. (or offered an excuse for those marked against their will)”

Good point.


49 posted on 10/04/2013 5:18:30 PM PDT by Georgia Girl 2 (The only purpose of a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should never have dropped.)
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To: editor-surveyor
"Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place."

-Matthew 24:34-
50 posted on 10/04/2013 5:18:54 PM PDT by Hoodat (BENGHAZI - 4 KILLED, 2 MIA)
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