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Fairytale Fever
Harvesting the Fruit of Vatican II ^ | 10/04/13 | Louie Verrecchio

Posted on 10/04/2013 2:37:31 PM PDT by ebb tide

In the aftermath of yesterday’s blog post, it has become evident that Fairytale Fever has reached near epidemic proportions among the Catholic population.

With the well-deserved criticism of Interviewgate 2 making its rounds, in particular as it relates to the pope’s insistence that “proselytism is solemn nonsense,” the papal apologizers set out on an archaeological dig in search of evidence that Francis’ remarks are the stuff of papal precedent.

Well, they didn’t have to dig very deep. They couldn’t, for the simple reason that the Holy Roman Catholic Church’s distaste for her God-given mission is a post-conciliar phenomenon.

Sure, they unearthed quotes from John Paul II and Benedict XVI rejecting proselytism, but who’s kidding who? The Assisi popes are the poster boys of false ecumenism, which is all about dialogue that eventually leads to… you guessed, more dialogue.

In any case, missing from both their reading of Francis, and their defense of the same, is any semblance of context.

In the case of the alleged precedent-setter-popes, John Paul II and Benedict XVI, one will find in most cases that their negative commentary concerning proselytism is ordered toward addressing coercion, or forced conversions gained via unethical behavior. For example, the oldest quote I’ve found dates all the way back to 1995, wherein John Paul II said during a visit to Sri Lanka, “[the Church] firmly rejects proselytism and the use of unethical means to gain conversions.”

Why conflate “proselytism” with “unethical means” in the first place? Who knows, perhaps this is just another example of that favored modernist pastime, redefining words. In any case, some definitions are in order, but first, let’s revisit the interview to contextualize Pope Francis’ commentary.

My friends think it is you want to convert me. He smiles again and replies: “Proselytism is solemn nonsense, it makes no sense… The translation isn’t exact. The original Italian text has been published on the Holy See’s website, which in addition to undermining the argument that the pope has no intention of revealing his papal agenda via a newspaper interview, it can be a valuable resource.

The operative part reads, Anche i miei amici pensano che sia Lei a volermi convertire.

My Italian isn’t terrific by any means, but I know enough to understand that Scalfari is more properly telling the pope that his friends think that the pope “wants me to convert.”

At this point, I shouldn’t have to point out that we’re looking at apples and oranges, but I will.

To the (apparently) ludicrous notion that the Vicar of Christ may (get this) want an atheist with whom he has developed a cordial relationship to convert to the one true faith, the pope promptly replied, “Proselytism is solemn nonsense, it makes no sense.”

Are you paying attention? The pope is saying that the very idea that he may harbor a desire to see Scalfari convert to the Catholic faith is “nonsense!” That’s the context, like it or not.

Now on to some definitions.

First, let’s revisit the mission of the Church as given by Christ.

“Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever that I have commanded you.” (Matthew 20:19-20)

As for proselytism, this is nothing more insidious than actively seeking proselytes; i.e., converts.

That’s it, and the Church has, until very recently, been doing exactly this by means of teaching, preaching and exhorting from day one. (See St. Peter the Proselytizer in action in Acts 2 if you don’t believe me.)

Part of the redefinition effort concerns setting up a false dichotomy relative to the mission of the Church, pitting the passive luring of converts by way of godly example and genuine kindness, against active calls to conversion through preaching and teaching.

Heaven is full of saints who did all of these things to the exclusion of none, as each constitutes a necessary component of authentic love of neighbor.

Then there is the more sophomoric notion that “proselytism” refers exclusively to an effort to create converts solely by means of condemnation and conquest. This is wholesale fantasy that just barely qualifies for refutation.

There isn’t one credible voice among the critics of Pope Francis who espouse anything like this. In any case, this make believe scenario couldn’t be further away from the context with which Francis offered his own regrettable comments.

In short, the post-conciliar modernists can labor to convince themselves and others that “proselytism” is a war crime all they want, but the fact remains, it is nothing more than the very mission of the Church.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic
KEYWORDS: francis; proselytism
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1 posted on 10/04/2013 2:37:31 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: ebb tide

I’m sure the Vatican will be out with an explanation of what Francis “really meant” any day now.


2 posted on 10/04/2013 3:37:43 PM PDT by piusv
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To: ebb tide

I just don’t see the great benefit to the Kingdom of Catholics seeking to convery Presybterians, trying to convert Methodists, trying to convert Baptists. It too quickly breaks down into nitpicking on which translation you use to justify what traditional practice, among people with no knowledge of Old Testament Greek.

Convert pagans, atheists, and muslims all you want, and even Mormons.


3 posted on 10/04/2013 4:22:10 PM PDT by donmeaker (The lessons of Weimar are soon to be relearned.)
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To: donmeaker

The Catholic Church teaches, “Outside the Church, there is no salvation”. There is no nitpicking about it.


4 posted on 10/04/2013 4:33:33 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: ebb tide

But Jesus was not baptized by a Catholic.


5 posted on 10/04/2013 4:35:21 PM PDT by donmeaker (The lessons of Weimar are soon to be relearned.)
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To: donmeaker

God does not need to be baptized.


6 posted on 10/04/2013 4:37:19 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: ebb tide

So there is salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church.


7 posted on 10/04/2013 4:38:22 PM PDT by donmeaker (The lessons of Weimar are soon to be relearned.)
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To: ebb tide

So there is salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church.


8 posted on 10/04/2013 4:38:35 PM PDT by donmeaker (The lessons of Weimar are soon to be relearned.)
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To: donmeaker

Nope.


9 posted on 10/04/2013 4:45:38 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: ebb tide

Was Mary baptized?


10 posted on 10/04/2013 4:48:25 PM PDT by donmeaker (The lessons of Weimar are soon to be relearned.)
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To: ebb tide

Only "sprinkled" as a baby.

Sprinkle it to be so now, for thus for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered "sprinkled" him. (?)

What the little baby Jesus was doing talking so clearly as a babe I don't know. Perhaps he was a bit precocious.

11 posted on 10/04/2013 4:51:25 PM PDT by BlueDragon (hurry up and light it, would you? the suspense as been killing me...)
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To: donmeaker

The Blessed Mother was born without original sin. Strike two for you.

Here’s a question for you, “Was Moses baptized?


12 posted on 10/04/2013 4:56:25 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: BlueDragon

How long have you been drinking today?


13 posted on 10/04/2013 4:57:40 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: ebb tide

So, Mary didn’t need the Catholic Church....

Jesus and Mary both had some form of salvation outside the Catholic Church.

Gosh, we are well on the way to Pelagius.


14 posted on 10/04/2013 5:01:09 PM PDT by donmeaker (The lessons of Weimar are soon to be relearned.)
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To: ebb tide

My understanding is that water flowed across his forhead as he was drawn from the Nile at the command of the daughter of Pharoh.


15 posted on 10/04/2013 5:02:33 PM PDT by donmeaker (The lessons of Weimar are soon to be relearned.)
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To: donmeaker

I really don’t give a darn about what you understand.


16 posted on 10/04/2013 5:05:05 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: donmeaker
"Gosh, we are well on the way to Pelagius."

"We"? Speak for yourself.

17 posted on 10/04/2013 5:06:56 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: ebb tide

How about Elijah?


18 posted on 10/04/2013 5:11:23 PM PDT by donmeaker (The lessons of Weimar are soon to be relearned.)
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To: ebb tide

Guess you are not into proseletizing.

Have a wonderful evening!


19 posted on 10/04/2013 5:16:21 PM PDT by donmeaker (The lessons of Weimar are soon to be relearned.)
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To: donmeaker

Elijah spent quite some time in Purgatory. Adam and Eve spent even more time there.

As far as proselytizing: Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus.

Think long and hard about that. I’ll be praying for you.


20 posted on 10/04/2013 5:23:47 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: ebb tide; metmom; CynicalBear; smvoice; boatbums; roamer_1

Catholic Comic Book Alert!


21 posted on 10/04/2013 5:27:55 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: donmeaker

You just can’t make up anything as far fetched as catholic doctrine.


22 posted on 10/04/2013 5:30:04 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: editor-surveyor
Do me a favor and pass this on to your comic book club:

Letter To A Proddie Friend


23 posted on 10/04/2013 5:42:59 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: ebb tide

that's what they thought of those gathered at Pentecost, marveling that is was only the third hour of the day.

Those men were not drunken, and neither am I.

Do you not know the scripture, even this snippet ";suffer it to be so now for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness"?

Ask yourself --- why would some one say that? Ask yourself "was it something I said"?

24 posted on 10/04/2013 5:56:32 PM PDT by BlueDragon
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To: donmeaker

From the Papist point of view, it is wholly logical to say that there is no salvation outside of the RCC, since they only have the “true” faith and proper doctrine, which Paul declares that anyone who teaches otherwise is ‘accursed.’

Of course, their position cannot stand up to the scripture, since they are, as you say, quite Pelagian, as they depend on their works to merit a conditional salvation. Not only that, but not even all of the ancients shared their views, especially on salvation. Even those who did not take Augustine’s position, at the very least gave it all to faith and not to works; however, there is no salvation outside of CHRISTIANITY, neither for those who are born where the Gospel is not preached, nor for those born outside of God’s covenant people in Old Testament times, since all are declared by Paul to be “without excuse,” “under sin,” and, since they are not born randomly, but rather God willed that they should be born and never hear the Gospel, it is part of His divine right to “show mercy on whom I will show mercy, and harden whom I will harden”.

Therefore we affirm that salvation is through Christ only, and not accessible by any one who does not believe. That said, Catholics can also be saved, but only when they are apostates to their own religion and accidentally, or, rather, by the grace of God, despair of themselves and trust in Christ only and not their obedience or submission to sacraments.


25 posted on 10/04/2013 6:11:38 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: ebb tide
God does not need to be baptized.

Jesus did need to be baptized to *fulfill all righteousness*. (His words when John objected to baptizing Him)

26 posted on 10/04/2013 6:15:05 PM PDT by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of faith....)
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To: ebb tide
Elijah spent quite some time in Purgatory. Adam and Eve spent even more time there.

You know that how?

27 posted on 10/04/2013 6:16:53 PM PDT by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of faith....)
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To: ebb tide; donmeaker
The Blessed Mother was born without original sin. Strike two for you.

That's not an answer to a yes or no question.

28 posted on 10/04/2013 6:19:35 PM PDT by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of faith....)
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To: metmom

Because Adam and Eve died long before Elijah. And nobody went to Heaven until Jesus Christ opened the gates of Hell.


29 posted on 10/04/2013 6:27:25 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: ebb tide

And where does it say anywhere that it was purgatory?


30 posted on 10/04/2013 6:34:17 PM PDT by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of faith....)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

I figure Catholics can be saved when they look at the Sacraments as tools to teach them of Christ.

I think it was Hemmingway that asserted that Spain was a Catholic, but not a Christian country. Discerning man.


31 posted on 10/04/2013 6:36:34 PM PDT by donmeaker (The lessons of Weimar are soon to be relearned.)
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To: ebb tide

I think one Martin Luther had a Latin phrase or two also.

So how would anyone know about Elijah in Pergatory? Does he send emails?


32 posted on 10/04/2013 6:38:11 PM PDT by donmeaker (The lessons of Weimar are soon to be relearned.)
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To: ebb tide

It is a small irony that the cresent moon and star were the symbols of Contantinopole. Richard I (Lionheart) wore them on his crusade as an ally of the Roman empire.

The Cresent moon references Diana/Artemis, whose priest warned the people of an earthquake, and due to his clamor, they who went to see him were safely out of doors.

The star refers to the Virgin Mary.

When Contantinopole was conquered, the Ottoman sultan took the symbol over.


33 posted on 10/04/2013 6:42:51 PM PDT by donmeaker (The lessons of Weimar are soon to be relearned.)
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To: metmom

Seriously they do NOT read scripture! They make so many comments that show total ignorance of what scripture says.


34 posted on 10/04/2013 6:43:34 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: metmom
The Bible says so. Have you heard of that book?

Biblical Evidence for Purgatory: 25 Bible Passages

35 posted on 10/04/2013 6:46:27 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: donmeaker

Hemingway blew his brains out. Crazy people do such things.


36 posted on 10/04/2013 6:50:11 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: ebb tide

Where is the word *purgatory* found in Scripture?


37 posted on 10/04/2013 6:51:24 PM PDT by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of faith....)
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To: ebb tide
Not one of those verses supports the idea that there is a place of suffering fire for the forgiveness of sin.

Hebrews 9:22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.

Suffering does not b3ring forgiveness, neither does fire. The only means of forgiveness is the shedding of blood.

Therefore purgatory CANNOT result in purification of sin.

38 posted on 10/04/2013 6:59:20 PM PDT by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of faith....)
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To: metmom

So do you think Jesus opened the Gates of Hell for the eternally damned? If so, nobody’s in Hell, right?


39 posted on 10/04/2013 7:08:44 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: ebb tide; metmom
So do you think Jesus opened the Gates of Hell for the eternally damned? If so, nobody’s in Hell, right?

You are operating from a disadvantage - The Roman concept of Hell is not true - Look to the Hebrew concept.

40 posted on 10/04/2013 7:12:33 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: roamer_1
You are operating from a disadvantage.

Nope, I'm operating from the only Church that Jesus Christ founded. Who founded yours?

41 posted on 10/04/2013 7:29:32 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: ebb tide

Jesus “founded” the Christian faith. All who come together to worship him are part of it.

That is it.


42 posted on 10/04/2013 7:30:29 PM PDT by GeronL
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To: ebb tide
Nope, I'm operating from the only Church that Jesus Christ founded. Who founded yours?

Nope. If Yeshua had founded it, you would not be looking to Rome's paganism to figure out hell, and inventing purgatory because you don't understand.

Why Yeshua went to 'hell' was to open the gates of Abraham's Bosom... Paradise, where the faithful had been residing until the sufficiency of the Messiah's sacrifice (the blood of rams and bulls is insufficient). These folks are the first fruits offering that Yeshua brought to YHWH that first Sunday. That is why Mirriam the magdalene could not touch Him - He was still consecrated and doing His job as High Priest (the only High Priest of the order of Melchizedek).

Really, this stuff would make a whole lot more sense if you discarded the rediculous assertions of your church, which doesn't know diddley.

43 posted on 10/04/2013 7:41:16 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: ebb tide

He had survived cancer. Opinions are mixed as to why he committed suicide, whether because he suspected a recurrence of cancer or a crazy belief that he was being tracked by the CIA.

He did use one of his favorite guns.


44 posted on 10/04/2013 7:51:39 PM PDT by donmeaker (The lessons of Weimar are soon to be relearned.)
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To: metmom

Certainly cooking dishes are not purified with blood.

Kosher practice purifies them with high temperature.


45 posted on 10/04/2013 7:53:40 PM PDT by donmeaker (The lessons of Weimar are soon to be relearned.)
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To: ebb tide

Oy vey... what an intrigue, this man said this, that man said that.

Why is there so much less intrigue in evangelical Christendom? Maybe because they want to see for themselves in the bible rather than from an ipse dixit that might or might not be authoritative depending on circumstance?


46 posted on 10/04/2013 7:54:33 PM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (The Lion of Judah will roar again if you give him a big hug and a cheer and mean it. See my page.)
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To: donmeaker

Those were add-ons not prescribed in scripture.


47 posted on 10/04/2013 7:56:47 PM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (The Lion of Judah will roar again if you give him a big hug and a cheer and mean it. See my page.)
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To: ebb tide

Read the references. No mention of Purgatory.


48 posted on 10/04/2013 7:57:23 PM PDT by donmeaker (The lessons of Weimar are soon to be relearned.)
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To: editor-surveyor

Have you read Scientology?


49 posted on 10/04/2013 7:59:56 PM PDT by donmeaker (The lessons of Weimar are soon to be relearned.)
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To: donmeaker

I don’t do man made philosophy.


50 posted on 10/04/2013 9:35:21 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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