Skip to comments.Cardinal friend to Pope Francis: “You’re not the same guy”
Posted on 10/06/2013 8:01:05 PM PDT by ebb tide
John Allen has some fascinating details about the papal election and the mystical experience of the night he was elected, in NCR:
(Excerpt) Read more at ncronline.org ...
It's a shame to see Catholics lie.
It's a shame to see Catholics lie.
It sounds like some of the Cardinals are speaking up in a gentle way that the Pope's account was not accurate.
This seems to indicate Francis really isn't that smart.
Why lie about an incident that was witnessed by 100+ cardinals?
Ping for later
It's not to the millions of Catholics but he's lying to God, if indeed, he is lying.
Sheds more light on some of his recent statements.
I read the article, and it doesn’t seem to me like anyone is lying. The important part of the new Pope’s experience was that before finally accepting, he took a moment for prayer, and during that moment he had an unusual experience of some sort. Now, given that he was probably in a bit of emotional turmoil at that time, I wouldn’t be a bit surprised that he mis-remembered the *place* where he prayed. His recollection was that it was a small room, whereas it seems to have actually been a back pew. But to him, the important part of that experience was the feeling that came to him during his prayer.
People who witness accidents make mistakes in their recollection all the time, because things happen swiftly, and because they are all excited and wound up. It sounds to me as though Pope Francis made a small mistake in his recollection. (Oh, the horror! ;o) A mistake is not a deliberate lie.
Because narcissists do that, and this guy, with his “we are the world,” “love love love” comments, as well as the way he talks in all those pesky interviews, is most likely one of those. In other words, he’s Obama.
In other words, he could be the FP.
Are we folks perfect!? We are not!
I could see in her face that she was having difficulty squaring her memory with my account of his death. She was absolutely certain that her version was correct and I am absolutely certain that my version is correct.
I have not brought it up with her since.
Why are you assuming it’s the Pope, Cardinals or a Monsignior lying?
Did you read the article?
The only way to conclude “Catholics [are] lying” is to believe all the above are liars, but not one, atheist journalist for a known leftist Italian publication.
Let me repeat that: a known leftist publication and it’s author, an avowed atheist, is assumed to have his facts right here, and thus, it’s “safe” to conclude that “Catholics [are] lying” in this instance.
Astounding. Just astounding what happens to our (justifiable) wariness about all things MSM when the topic of Catholicism is addressed in that same media machine.
Then, they are our best friends. Funny that.
I’m not assuming anything. Cardinal Dolan and Fr. Thomas Rosica both said the Pope never went into a private room. Msgr. Dario Viganò says otherwise.
Yeah, sure you're not. Read what you yourself posted again.
The accounts related by Cardinal Dolan (as later confirmed by Fr Rosica) and Msgr Vigano do not conflict.
From the article you posted "The newly elected pope never left the Sistine Chapel for a period of reflection before finally accepting the papacy," Rosica said. Note, this is also what Dolan said (link to what he recounted is also in your post). Emphasis added.
Also from the article you posted, Viganò was inside the Vatican in the moments immediately after Francis' election and before the new pope stepped out to greet the world. He says when Francis left the Sistine Chapel to walk toward the balcony, he had his eyes down, he wasn't smiling, he didn't say anything to the cardinals, and was as if he were carrying "an enormous burden."
Then, however, Francis stepped into the Pauline Chapel, where a throne had been set up for him to use for prayer. Instead, Francis asked the two cardinals walking with him, Jean-Louis Tauran (who made the "Habemus papam" announcement) and Agostino Vallini (the vicar of Rome) to sit with him in the chapel's back pew.
Again, from the article you posted and emphasis added.
No one is lying. This is all stemming from confusion resulting from sloppy reporting (at least that, if not more) on the part of the atheist at La Repubblica.
The only way to conclude Catholics [are] lying is to believe all the above are liars, but not one, atheist journalist for a known leftist Italian publication.
But that publication's article has been confirmed accurate by the pope's spokesman and has been posted on the Vatican website as a "speech" of the Holy Father. Maybe it's a leftist publication, but it sure seems like the pope has agreed that it printed his words accurately enough. For that reason I think we have to treat what is printed as, at least in substance, reflecting the thoughts and words of the pope.
No one is lying. Unless again, one assumes an atheist is recounting the words of Pope Francis correctly! Read the post (article) that started this thread again. It offers a reasonable explaination as to how no one in this stupidity is "wrong"
Read it with a simple desire for truth.
WHY is it seemingly so difficult for some on FR to believe a newspaper (in this case La Repubblica) might, just might, at LEAST "unintentionally" (to be as charitable as possible) get their facts wrong WRT to a known public figure in Christianity?!?
Of COURSE it's not because some simply dislike Catholicism more than leftists and their rags (ie publications). Of COURSE not!
In a statement, the Vatican has stressed that the text was an after-the-fact reconstruction and so run[s] the risk of either missing some key details or conflating various moments or events recounted during the oral interview.
It has nevertheless attested to the overall “trustworthiness” of the interview.
Hopefully this also explains the usage of the word “trustworthiness” in the Reporter article (the post that started this thread)
This should now satisfy anyone of this matter, anyone that is who values truth over hatred for the Catholic Church.
Eh, I’m willing to give him the benefit of the doubt on this. I do question whether he was listening to God during that “mystical experience” though. That was some weird stuff right there.
Oh, good grief. Mysticism is a pretty board term. Many Born-again Christians claim to have had such moments without calling it by that name. Arent they claiming to be talking to God? And who is to say they are not?
And, this is where you miss the real issue and allow yourself to grab onto the convenient misdirection. Imagine that Scalfari twisted the pope's words entirely, and the interview is completely unreliable. What would any reasonable person do in that situation, especially somebody whose words are heard by millions and followed by them? Would they ignore the inaccuracies? Would they, rather than issuing corrections or denials, have their people simply put it out that no recording device was used nor notes taken, without ever actually saying that anything in the interview was wrong? And would they ever go so far as to print the interview on their website as one of their own speeches? (BTW, you can see the interview here: http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/francesco/speeches/2013/october/documents/papa-francesco_20131002_intervista-scalfari_it.html) No, I am sorry, but your insistence on taking the bait and assuming that the interviewer was unreliable and ignoring the fact that the interviewee has acted in every way like it is entirely accurate simply falls short of reasonable. Taken as a whole it is obvious that the Holy Father approves of this interview. That is enough for me on that point, even had the Devil himself done the interviewing.
And, btw, I am Catholic and have no dislike whatsoever for Holy Mother Church.
Exactly where did I say that he is not talking to God? I said I questioned his experience....and it was very strange indeed.
Alright, I apologize for implying otherwise.
It is most likely that the Pope is a narcissist. He makes up a grandiose experience in order to seem even further above those around him. When caught in the lie he ignores his confronters and dismisses the whole thing. His followers then all run around trying to cover for him because, what else are they going to do? The person who exposes the lie, in this case a reporter who points out the conflicting stories, ends up being branded the liar.
However, maybe the Pope *is* actually telling the truth. Mystical experiences have a way of making those who experience them look like kooks to everyone else. Perhaps everything happened exactly the way the Pope said it did. He walks off the balcony, there *is* a door there, he goes through it and it *does* lead to a small room. Inside the room, a spirit does possess him and gives him supernatural charisma. He then returns to the balcony and the Cardinals notice that he is a completely different man.
Now, maybe Msgr. Dario Vigano, Jean-Louis Tauran, and Agostino Vallini are *also* telling the truth. That the Pope left the balcony, went into the Pauline Chapel, prayed in the back pew, stands up, turns around, and at that moment is a completely different man. This is what *they* saw.
Missing time and dimensional shifts are common components of mystical experiences. As are “out of body” experiences, which are perhaps related to “in the spirit” experiences. When the Pope left the balcony, he could have entered a completely different place spiritually, a completely different dimension, than where his body was. The experiences he had there could have been made to take up the exact amount of time that passed for his body, no matter how long those experiences were. Those who were with his body described it as, “he had his eyes down, he wasn’t smiling, he didn’t say anything to the cardinals, and was as if he were carrying an enormous burden.” Perhaps this is how a body looks during an “in the spirit” experience.
The Pope perhaps did not even realize something was wrong, which is why he relayed his experiences as if they were what everyone else experienced. Perhaps he was just as shocked to hear they weren’t, as the Cardinals, the reporter, and all of us were. Everyone silently looks at him like he is a kook, maybe he even thinks he is himself. So everyone dismisses the whole thing.
It cannot be stressed enough how common it is for people who experience supernatural events to completely block out and dismiss the entire thing. He blocks out the fact that, without his body, he went through a door that does not exist and was in a place that cannot be, because to contemplate such a thing is to invite madness. And anyone he confides in will think he is crazy, because if what he is saying is true, then we must accept that absolutely nothing in the world that we take for granted is as we think it is, that there are unspeakably powerful supernatural beings doing whatever they want to us whenever they want with agendas we can never know, and that there is nothing we can do about it. Worst of all, one of these beings is haunting *you*. To truly understand, absorb and accept such things is horrifying beyond human endurance, so the mortal mind blanks it out and dismisses it for its own protection. What cannot be, must not be.
Both stories have one thing in common. The Pope is now a completely different man. This spirit of supernatural charisma he has been possessed by has altered him. Is this spirit evil? We will know by his fruits.
The city of Damascus was not destroyed recently during Obama’s Middle East debacle, as it easily could have been, so perhaps the time is not yet.
WOW. Great post and it makes perfect sense, in a warped, supernatural kind of way. Great job!
A friend of mine who used to be an agnostic (declared atheist) was born again in Christ. One of the things that happens in the Church he’s in is that he’s immersed in hot tub sized bath of water.
The heater on it broke, and the water was ice cold. He told me after that he felt great anxiety at being immersed in the cold water in front of the congregation.
However, upon being immersed, the water was as warm. He was brought from the tub, and he turned to stick his hand in, and the water was icy cold.
Satan may be in charge on Earth, but the Holy Spirit is our advocate. We deny the many evidences of God’s plan for us in our lives.
As to the Pope, the events are on tape, or chip, somewhere that can put all of this to rest, save the bit about his ‘sense of calm’.
However, the Apostles were scared sheep before Pentecost, and afterward they had the courage of lions. As such, this isn’t the first time this particular miracle has occurred, if it was a miracle.
Oh, thank you very much.
I should say though that the Bible teaches there is no such thing as an out of body experience, and that being taken up in the spirit is a bodily phenomenon.
What is said to actually happen during an out of body experience is that the possessing spirit inserts extremely realistic images and sensations into a mortal’s mind. These images can make them believe they have been somewhere out of their body when in fact it was more akin to a kind of virtual reality.
Spirits can insert all kinds of images, sounds, and sensations into a mortal’s mind, and this is the source of phenomena like past life regression, ESP, precognition, remote viewing, contacting the dead, telepathy, after death experiences, and all sorts of others. The Pope could have easily been the victim of image insertion, as this also fits his demeanor during the event.
Being taken in the spirit is said to be a completely different phenomena in which a person is bodily shifted to another dimension. This kind of event does not appear to be what happened to the Pope, as others saw his body here on Earth.
The reason this distinction is important, is because the Bible teaches that a human does not have a removable spirit. When a person dies, they lie in their grave, knowing nothing (Ecclesiastes 9:5). A person/spirit/soul/consciousness/etc is all the same inseparable unit.
There are beings who do have a removable spirit though. The Nephilim, who are the offspring of human women and fallen angels. When a Nephilim’s body dies, they live on as an invisible, disembodied spirit the Bible calls a “demon”. These demons are responsible for things like ghosts, poltergeists, hauntings, and the like. When they possess a human, they can insert images as above and can also cause phenomenon like telekinesis, weather alteration, pyrokinesis, and similar effects.
It is possible that the Nephilim are the root of ancient Egyptian mythology, among others. Perhaps this is why the Egyptians created mummies and placed them in pyramids along with worldly goods. They were preserving the body of the Nephilim because its spirit, the demon, was nostalgic for it and believed it might find a way to return it to life. The Egyptians then built a temple next to the pyramid in which they worshiped the disembodied spirit of the Nephilim as per its wishes. Eventually the body decomposed, the demon gave up and moved on to possessing humans.
So, the spirit that possessed the Pope probably simply inserted that experience with the door to the small room into his mind. It is the mark of an evil spirit to do something that would lead to the Pope looking like a kook just for fun, but we will have to see. If the Pope is a follower of every one of the teachings as written in the Bible, then the spirit could only have been the Holy Spirit. In that case though, the Holy Spirit would have already been within him, and the Pope would have simply felt “closer to God” as the Holy Spirit overcame his sinfulness and brought him closer to God.
I am not aware of God bestowing charisma on anyone. He didnt to Moses, who practically asked for it. But, that doesnt mean He hasnt or wouldnt. He does cause people to be born with charisma. And, when the Holy Spirit first comes to indwell in you, one does feel like a super hero. Perhaps this event was the Popes conversion moment. Being elected to Pope brought him to finally accept salvation by grace through faith in Jesus alone, along with all of the other teachings as written in the Bible, and this door to the small room experience was the Holy Spirit coming to indwell in him. If that is the case, we can expect to see some HUGE changes for the good to the Roman Catholic Organization.
As far as I know, there are only two kinds of possessing spirit entities, demons and the Holy Spirit. However, the Bible says that Satan can possess people and indwell in them, so he can be counted as a third possessing spirit entity. It may be that Satan has only ever possessed Judas so far, and will only possess the Antichrist in the future. If Satan has the power to possess though, does that mean other angels do? If that is the case then there are three kinds of possessing spirit entities. “Angels” is a bit broad. There are different kinds of angels, and some of them appear to be spirit beings that can take on human form.
Satan is also currently the only fallen angel that is not imprisoned within the Abyss awaiting the End of Days. He roams the Earth and appears to be able to move freely between it and the heavenly places. Those angels imprisoned in the Abyss, which is somewhere in the center of the Earth and probably another dimension, were the ones that fathered the Nephilim. The other fallen angels are still in their heavenly places and havent actually “fallen” yet. That happens during the End of Days when with a swipe of his tail, Satan knocks a third of the stars out of the heavens and onto Earth. But, just because they are still in their heavenly places does not mean that these future fallen angels are not doing very evil things.
Absolutely fascinating post of yours. Thank you so much for posting it. I will be following Pope events and your posts from this point on. You’ve given me a road-marker of sorts, to compare his actions and words with your excellent thesis. Thanks again!