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There is something strange going on in the Vatican
LifeSiteNews ^ | Mon Oct 07, 2013 | Hilary White, Rome Correspondent

Posted on 10/09/2013 8:25:55 AM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM

There is something strange going on in the Vatican

by Hilary White, Rome Correspondent



TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; Religion & Culture; Theology
KEYWORDS: papacy; pope; popefrancis; vatican
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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1 posted on 10/09/2013 8:25:55 AM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: Brian Kopp DPM

Pope Francis is stepping on a lot of the toes of the true powers that be in the Vatican. I really wouldn’t be surprised if one day he is found dead in his quarters under mysterious circumstance like Pope John Paul I....


2 posted on 10/09/2013 8:31:40 AM PDT by apillar
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To: Brian Kopp DPM

The Pope needs keep his trap shut because he is proving to be someone who cannot think straight.


3 posted on 10/09/2013 8:32:45 AM PDT by yldstrk (My heroes have always been cowboys)
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To: Brian Kopp DPM

So the early fears of a “Social Justice” socialist pope were right or wrong?


4 posted on 10/09/2013 8:33:40 AM PDT by Uncle Miltie (Need health care? Dial 1-800-F1UCK-YO to reach Obama's hotline)
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To: yldstrk

The Pope needs keep his trap shut because he is proving to be someone who cannot think straight.


Why did god choose him then?


5 posted on 10/09/2013 8:33:51 AM PDT by cuban leaf
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To: Uncle Miltie

No one knows for sure yet. He may be a great saint, he may be an anti-pope. Only time will tell. Everyone needs to pray, fast, sacrifice and be vigilant.


6 posted on 10/09/2013 8:35:18 AM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: Brian Kopp DPM
these are dark days....I can truly see underlings changing the words or phrases that the Pope has said and publicize them...

dark days...

7 posted on 10/09/2013 8:35:23 AM PDT by cherry (.in the time of universal deceit, telling the truth is revolutionary.....)
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To: cuban leaf

well I am sure God can bring good out of it, but I am not sure of anything else


8 posted on 10/09/2013 8:36:20 AM PDT by yldstrk (My heroes have always been cowboys)
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To: Brian Kopp DPM

This article sums things up very well.


9 posted on 10/09/2013 8:37:49 AM PDT by Jeff Chandler (Let your 'Yes' mean 'Yes,' and your 'No' mean 'No.' Matthew 5:37)
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To: Brian Kopp DPM

Something very wrong here...

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/standingonmyhead/2013/10/my-interview-with-pope-francis.html

Pope says in interview from above link:

Proselytism is solemn nonsense. It makes no sense. I recently had an interview with the Italian atheist Alfredo Sauce and I assured him that I did not want to convert him.

I repeat it here. Everyone has his own idea of good and evil and must choose to follow the good and fight evil as he conceives them. That would be enough to make the world a better place.”


10 posted on 10/09/2013 8:38:12 AM PDT by seeker41 (take your country back by whatever means necessary)
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To: yldstrk
"well I am sure God can bring good out of it, but I am not sure of anything else"

How did you come to this conclusion?

11 posted on 10/09/2013 8:47:42 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Brian Kopp DPM
I'm in no position to judge the Pope but in my estimation many of his comments border on heresy. People keep making excuses for him claiming that liberals and secularists are twisting his words to advance their aims, but as the article points out, if there's twisting going on there is absolutely no Vatican effort to 'untwist'!

It seems to me that this pope is saying exactly what he wants to say and his words are being interpretted exactly as he wants them interpretted.

12 posted on 10/09/2013 8:48:32 AM PDT by pgkdan
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To: All
I don’t know if I’m the only one to have noticed, but there seems to be something strange going on in the Vatican. No, I’m not talking about all that, at least not directly. I’m talking about the strange, long, almost awkward and, dare I say it, embarrassed silence, that has reigned from the Vatican’s press office on all of Pope Francis’s extraordinary statements and actions since his election....

....In the nearly ten years I’ve been covering Vatican and Catholic-related news, through three papacies now, I don’t remember a time when the uproar caused by things a pope is saying and doing has reached so deeply into the minds of orthodox believers....for weeks, there was nothing; no clarification, no corrections or denials at all from inside the Vatican’s walls. The Catholic world outside was starting to wonder just what is going on in there. Nothing, that is, until last Thursday...Not only was there no comment or clarifications in the prepared remarks at that press conference, Fr. Lombardi had nothing prepared for what he must have known would be the main point of interest for journalists. He seemed, simply, to be caught off guard....

....Scalfari and Lombardi have both insisted that Pope Francis was shown the final text and approved it, although it is not “clear how closely the Pope read it”.

Ping for later

13 posted on 10/09/2013 8:50:28 AM PDT by Alex Murphy (Just a common, ordinary, simple savior of America's destiny.)
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To: seeker41
From the interview of Pope Francis Pope:

“The most serious of the evils that afflict the world these days are youth unemployment and the loneliness of the old."

From Cardinal Ratzinger:

"Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the -application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia" (WRHC 3).

I want BXVI back.

14 posted on 10/09/2013 8:51:22 AM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: seeker41

Alfredo Sauce?!? Is that actually a person’s name, or is the Pope talking to his dinner?


15 posted on 10/09/2013 8:51:30 AM PDT by Boogieman
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To: seeker41

Only God, working through Jesus Christ, converts people. Proselytism is what the Jehovah’s Witnesses do, and we all know how convincing that is! Or what the Muslims do, converting by force.

Even when the Spanish evangelized the American Indians, the Indians did not have to convert. Those tribes that didn’t could still enter into a treaty with Spain. But the Franciscan, Jesuit and Dominican missionaries managed to convince most of them to convert by telling them about the freedom and peace found in Our Lord Jesus Christ.

And as for the knowledge of good and evil by even non-Christians, that’s essentially another way of saying “natural law,” which is because man is made in the Image and Likeness of God and has this law engraved on his heart.

Whether a person ignores it or is blinded to it by an evil ideology that exalts things contrary to it (such as Islam or Communism), this natural law exists and can be discovered by the conscience, the built-in moral sense of mankind.


16 posted on 10/09/2013 8:51:53 AM PDT by livius
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To: Brian Kopp DPM
No one knows for sure yet. He may be a great saint, he may be an anti-pope.

Petrus Romanus?

17 posted on 10/09/2013 8:53:20 AM PDT by Mikey_1962 (Obama: The Affirmative Action President.)
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To: seeker41
Thanks for that link. These are dangerous days we are living. We all must be alert, watch and pray.

My Interview With Pope Francis

I was sitting at my desk when my secretary knocked on the door. I could see she was excited and breathless. “I have the Pope on the phone for you!”

“Your Holiness, this is unexpected!”

“I would like you to have a dialogue with you. However, since you are in the United States I would like this interview to take place in your mind. This is a chance for you, as one of my priests, to ask me questions.”

“Your Holiness, I am honored.” The interview began.

The room I sat in was simply furnished. There was a chair, a desk and a religious picture on the wall. I had a glass of water.

In my mind the Pope entered the room. He was dressed in white.

Holiness, allow me first of all to thank you for the honor of conducting an interview with me. I am, after all, only a convert, and one of your humble priests. My first question to you is about the importance of the New Evangelization. How shall we convince a new generation of the love of Christ and convert them to the Catholic faith?

Proselytism is solemn nonsense. It makes no sense. I recently had an interview with the Italian atheist Alfredo Sauce and I assured him that I did not want to convert him.

I see. You will forgive me as I am a convert from the Protestant tradition, and when I was in Sunday School I learned the story of Jesus  Christ calling his apostles to be fishers of men. I also recall the Lord’s words, “Go into all the world and make disciples, teaching them and baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.” Holy Father, how shall we understand the command of the Lord to his apostles if proselytism is nonsense? But then, perhaps I have misunderstood your words and there is a deeper meaning?

I repeat it here. Everyone has his own idea of good and evil and must choose to follow the good and fight evil as he conceives them. That would be enough to make the world a better place.”

I see. So perhaps it is not so important to convert people to the Catholic faith? What then is our mission? Simply to make the world a better place? 

“Yes, that is the purpose of our mission: to identify the material and immaterial needs of the people and try to meet them as we can. Do you know what agape is?”

Yes, I know.
“It is love of others, as our Lord preached. It is not proselytizing, it is love. Love for one’s neighbor, that leavening that serves the common good.”

Perhaps the translation from Italian was faulty, but am I to understand that as a Catholic priest then, you would advise me to simply love people and make the world a better place and not seek to convert anyone?

The Son of God became incarnate in the souls of men to instill the feeling of brotherhood. All are brothers and all children of God. Abba, as he called the Father. I will show you the way, he said. Follow me and you will find the Father and you will all be his children and he will take delight in you.

What a beautiful thought. I am sure something is being lost in translation, but it seems theologically imprecise to speak of “the Son of God becoming incarnate in the souls of men” How does one “become incarnate” in the soul?  So the important thing is for people to have a feeling of brotherhood. I can see why non-believers are pleased with this message because it is something with which they can agree!

Please forgive me Holy Father for being obtuse and simplistic, but I am reminded of the Lord’s conversation with Nicodemus in the third chapter of John’s gospel. The Lord said to Nicodemus that it was necessary for a person to be born again of water and the spirit in order to enter the kingdom of God. He went on to say that through his coming death on the cross–when he would be lifted up– all who believe in him would be saved. He then says in verse 18 that those who do not believe are already condemned. I have always understood that the default setting of all human beings is that they are condemned unless they believe in Christ, and the church therefore has the imperative from Christ himself to preach the gospel and call men and women to repentance and faith. Was this not the primary mission of Peter the Apostle, and is it not therefore your primary mission as his successor? But perhaps I have misunderstood.

God is the light that illuminates the darkness, even if it does not dissolve it, and a spark of divine light is within each of us… our species will end but the light of God will not end and at that point it will invade all souls and it will all be in everyone.”

I believe Tielhard deChardin was a Jesuit also was he not? Holiness allow me to ask you a question concerning your earlier words, you said that Jesus said, “I will show you the way.” Perhaps it is lost in translation and I have misunderstood the Scriptures, or perhaps I am being too picky, but I believe Jesus said not that he would “show us the way” but that he IS the way. This would seem to be an existential claim which places him above all other teachers or mentors who merely claim to show the way. Have I misunderstood your teaching here? 

Agape, the love of each one of us for the other, from the closest to the furthest, is in fact the only way that Jesus has given us to find the way of salvation and of the Beatitudes.

Those are beautiful sentiments, and as St Paul teaches “the greatest of these is love”. However, I have always understood that Jesus Christ is “the Way, the Truth and the Life and that no one comes to the Father except through him” This indicates something different than simply loving our neighbor as ourself or following the path of a wise religious teacher. There is first of all an existential encounter with the person of Jesus Christ. In your other interviews and homilies you have spoken of the importance of that primary encounter with the living Jesus Christ, so perhaps I have misunderstood what you are saying here. Surely you are not telling me as one of your priests that all I need to do is be kind and loving to others?

“there is God and I believe in Jesus Christ, his incarnation. Jesus is my teacher and my pastor,Each of us has a vision of good and of evil. We have to encourage people to move towards what they think is Good.”

The conscience is a valuable guide, but as Chief Pastor isn’t it your responsibility to help form the consciences of your flock with clear moral teaching? 

I repeat it here. Everyone has his own idea of good and evil and must choose to follow the good and fight evil as he conceives them.

I must continue to listen and learn from you Holiness. I understand that your recent conversation with an atheist should not be understood as definitive church teaching. It was no more than a personal conversation.

I am grateful for your interviews with atheists, but I must admit to being confused by many of your answers. What I have gathered from this most recent interview is that all people will be saved in the end, and that it is good enough for everyone to simply follow their conscience and be loving to others.

My final question is this – if you really are saying that following one’s conscience is good enough and one does not need to be converted, that belief in Jesus Christ is optional and that in the end all will be saved–then why should I continue be ing a Catholic priest? Indeed why should I continue to be a Catholic?

Transcendence remains because that light, all in everything, transcends the universe and the species it inhabits at that stage. But back to the present. We have made a step forward in our dialogue. We have observed that in society and the world in which we live selfishness has increased more than love for others, and that men of good will must work, each with his own strengths and expertise, to ensure that love for others increases until it is equal and possibly exceeds love for oneself.”

Thank you for meeting with me Holy Father. I want to continue to learn from you, but may I leave you with a simple question? As you continue to meet with atheists and unbelievers will you also take time to meet with those of your flock who find your personal views difficult to understand?

Many of us are ordinary Christians who love Jesus Christ and believe the plain words of Scripture. When we read what you are saying some of it seems to contradict the words of Jesus himself. I hope you will take time to explain them for us and help us to understand.

UPDATE: Sister Anne provides some help with what seems to be an unclear translation of some of the Italian in the latest papal interview here: Jimmy Akin analyzes the Pope’s interview here.


18 posted on 10/09/2013 8:54:00 AM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: Boogieman

That quote was from a startlingly well done piece of satire.


19 posted on 10/09/2013 8:54:58 AM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: Brian Kopp DPM

Almost like he is the Obama of popes. He says ambiguous statements that people project their own wishes on. Yet he says that be conforms with the beliefs of the Church.


20 posted on 10/09/2013 8:55:02 AM PDT by informavoracious (Of course I want people to have healthcare, I just didn't know I was the one who would be paying...)
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To: livius
Proselytism is what the Jehovah’s Witnesses do

Its also the vast majority of postings on the Religion Forum from certain sectors.

21 posted on 10/09/2013 8:57:51 AM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: Brian Kopp DPM

Thank you for the article. Interesting.


22 posted on 10/09/2013 8:59:33 AM PDT by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass , Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: Brian Kopp DPM

ping


23 posted on 10/09/2013 9:03:29 AM PDT by Java4Jay (The evils of government are directly proportional to the tolerance of the people.)
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To: Brian Kopp DPM

People have the same misgivings about the Christ, who sits down and eats with sinners. This Pope has been forthcoming about the need for mercy and absolution in a sick world, and the world hates him for it. It is better to let the Pope speak and let his official press remain silent. Let his words speak for themselves, and if you have doubts or misgivings, ask the Pope to explain further in his own words. From what I’ve read so far - in his own words - the Pope speaks very much in accord with the catholic Faith.


24 posted on 10/09/2013 9:04:34 AM PDT by Fester Chugabrew
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To: pgkdan
...many of his comments border on heresy...

It seems to me that this pope is saying exactly what he wants to say and his words are being interpretted exactly as he wants them interpretted.

It is difficult to escape this conclusion.

If Pope Benedict XVI were not still alive, most of us would not even be entertaining these thoughts.

But the idea of an anti-pope in our time haunts our fears, and has foundation in Catholic prophecy.

25 posted on 10/09/2013 9:05:27 AM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: Brian Kopp DPM

Well there is something strange in the White House


26 posted on 10/09/2013 9:06:16 AM PDT by Patriot Babe
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To: Brian Kopp DPM; miele man

Thank you for posting this. Bump for later consideration and reflection.


27 posted on 10/09/2013 9:06:48 AM PDT by miele man
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To: Brian Kopp DPM

Ah, thanks for clearing that up.


28 posted on 10/09/2013 9:06:51 AM PDT by Boogieman
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To: Fester Chugabrew
I disagree. So do many bright well educated mainstream Catholics who are much smarter than I and far better educated, whose opinions I highly regard.
29 posted on 10/09/2013 9:07:13 AM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: Brian Kopp DPM

The Bible says that in the end times most professed believers would be led astray.

I don’t know what an “anti-Pope” is since I don’t follow earthly Gods.


30 posted on 10/09/2013 9:07:29 AM PDT by GeronL
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To: cuban leaf

God had nothing to do with it.


31 posted on 10/09/2013 9:10:50 AM PDT by Bulwyf
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To: Brian Kopp DPM

Ping for later


32 posted on 10/09/2013 9:11:56 AM PDT by Jonty30 (What Islam and secularism have in common is that they are both death cults)
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To: Brian Kopp DPM
I want BXVI back.
*smiles* He certainly was easier to understand, as is noted in your quoted commentary.

I think in doing what he "wants" to do, rather than going with the program as is expected by the multitudes, Pope Francis is being selfish. But who knows? Maybe there's a rhyme and reason for it all; I do like his emphasis on prayer.
33 posted on 10/09/2013 9:12:10 AM PDT by mlizzy (If people spent an hour a week in Eucharistic adoration, abortion would be ended. --Mother Teresa)
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To: GeronL

I don’t believe in earthly “gods” either. The bible does talk about this one world religion/government coming our way. I can’t help but think we’re being setup for it. It’s time more than ever to put our focus into our personal relationship with Jesus Christ and put our faith in him and trust in him. God’s plans will come to pass, and we can take comfort in that.


34 posted on 10/09/2013 9:14:47 AM PDT by Bulwyf
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To: livius
Only God, working through Jesus Christ, converts people

Is there ONE YHvH ??

Are there two or three gods ??

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
35 posted on 10/09/2013 9:16:16 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your teaching is my delight.)
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To: mlizzy
Lots of people are "nervous" right now.

Reader Feedback: “I can’t read just anything about the Church anymore…”

I have been getting notes by email along these lines:

I just wanted to send a quick thank you for the helpful posts lately. I have been nervous since Pope Benedict left and I worry about what this all means for the future of my diocese … when it is time for a new Bishop. I had thought things would improve around here (more reverent liturgy and less liberal style social justice) but now I’m not so sure it will really change any time soon. There are some bright spots, though, and ways I can help if I look for them.

I can’t read just anything about the Church anymore but I still read your blog because you are hopeful and realistic. Thank you for the encouragement you give so many people.

You are welcome!

I suspect that a lot of people out there are feeling and thinking along the same lines.  Many people are nervous.  That is to be expected.

Be involved and help work for good changes.   It will be like pushing a huge rock up a hill. It will also, in the long run, result in benefits for many.


36 posted on 10/09/2013 9:18:34 AM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: Bulwyf

I totally agree with that.

There is no one between you and Jesus/God and anyone that pretends there is and that you cannot get there without their assistance they are not true Christians.


37 posted on 10/09/2013 9:18:57 AM PDT by GeronL
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To: Brian Kopp DPM

Pope Francis seems to be performing as a one man act, scorning both the Vatican’s traditional papal apartments and its bureaucracy while likely aiming at major changes in its personnel and operations. I wonder if at the upcoming general synod, Pope Francis intends to curtail key aspects of the papacy as to its pomp and governance powers.


38 posted on 10/09/2013 9:21:55 AM PDT by Rockingham
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To: Brian Kopp DPM
Dear Brian,

“It seems to me that this pope is saying exactly what he wants to say and his words are being interpretted exactly as he wants them interpreted.”

Actually, I don't believe this is true. I could be wrong, but my sense is that Pope Franky is just intellectually sloppy. He blurts out whatever comes to his fertile mind, and doesn't look back.

When I look at remarks that I assume are prepared beforehand (such as his remarks during his audiences, like what one sees in this thread: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/3076661/posts ), it's pretty good stuff.

It's when he “grabs the mike” and starts ad libbing that we see,... unusual results.

I could speculate on the reasons for this, but I think I won't for now. But what is evident to me is that he really has no idea how his off-the-cuff remarks will be interpreted. In fact, I'm not sure he has much of an idea of what he's going to actually say much before he says it.

I think we should take his press spokesman's words to heart, that he is speaking casually, informally, that these are not magisterial pronouncements. Essentially, they're bull sessions. When I used to bowl with the Knights of Columbus, we had these sorts of conversations all the time. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with them.

The primary difference is that none of us bowlers thought that our casual conversations should have been published in the world press.

However, as I noted on another thread, the pope thinks that most clergy are narcissists. Who am I to argue?


sitetest

39 posted on 10/09/2013 9:23:05 AM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: Bulwyf

God had nothing to do with it.


Zactly. It’s why I did not capitalize the word. ;-)


40 posted on 10/09/2013 9:29:46 AM PDT by cuban leaf
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To: Brian Kopp DPM
Interesting from Fr. Z. Thanks!

And yeah, many eyebrows went up at the washing of the feet of two female prisoners last Easter season, and those eyebrows haven't come down [completely] since then. A different kind of pope, that's for sure; nothing like BXVI. We continue to pray..
41 posted on 10/09/2013 9:32:38 AM PDT by mlizzy (If people spent an hour a week in Eucharistic adoration, abortion would be ended. --Mother Teresa)
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To: sitetest
I hope you're right. I see signs of hope with this Pope, but I see very real reasons for grave concern.

Speaking of "signs of the times," take a look at this article in, of all places, the Huffington Post:

Pope and Putin: Seize Opportunity, Heed Directive for World Peace and Good, 'Consecrate Russia!'

42 posted on 10/09/2013 9:34:01 AM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: GeronL

I agree with that too, Jesus died for sins, paid the price of my admission with his perfect sacrifice. That’s why I get into with catholics a lot. So close, yet so far from the truth. It’s truly discouraging to me to see so many good people misled into a false teaching.


43 posted on 10/09/2013 9:36:52 AM PDT by Bulwyf
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To: Brian Kopp DPM

Proselytism is what the Jehovah’s Witnesses do

Its also the vast majority of postings on the Religion Forum from certain sectors.

.................

It is also what Christ commanded His disciples to do, what they did on Pentecost, Paul did throughout the known world, what Christians have done to the corners of the earth for thousands of years, into the deepest jungles, deserts, islands, etc., and fulfills the prophecy that people from every tribe, tongue and nation will worship Him.


44 posted on 10/09/2013 9:37:29 AM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion (I grew up in America. I now live in the United States..)
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To: Boogieman

Not to diminish the seriousness of the topic, that is funny. :o)


45 posted on 10/09/2013 9:43:28 AM PDT by Scarlet7
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To: Bulwyf

The think most Catholics when being judged can be saved, but some of them have spent far too much time thinking about or praying to one of the 10,000 or so Saints, to the point where Jesus has just become one of many.


46 posted on 10/09/2013 9:45:57 AM PDT by GeronL
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To: GeronL

I think


47 posted on 10/09/2013 9:46:18 AM PDT by GeronL
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To: Brian Kopp DPM

That’s how it goes with scribes and pharisees; brilliant and curious as they may be - they are dissatisfied with the plain and simple Word of Truth, and extremely uncomfortable at the suggestion others less worthy may enter the Kingdom of Heaven ahead of them.


48 posted on 10/09/2013 9:47:34 AM PDT by Fester Chugabrew
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To: aMorePerfectUnion

The Pope is making a distinction between proselytizing and evangelizing. Its a distinction lost on most.


49 posted on 10/09/2013 9:48:20 AM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: Brian Kopp DPM; pgkdan

If one reads Pope St. Pius X’s encyclical condemning Modernism (”Pascendi Dominici Gregis,” 1907), one comes to the conclusion that Pope Francis is a full-blown Modernist. The fact that Pope St. Pius X declared Modernism to be a heresy leads to the other conclusion that Pope Francis is a heretic. It is hard to wrap one’s mind around that little factoid, but looking at the facts dispassionately and objectively leads one to that conclusion.

We must face reality in order to know how to pray.


50 posted on 10/09/2013 9:49:21 AM PDT by nanetteclaret (Unreconstructed "Elderly Kooky Type" Catholic Texan)
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