Posted on 10/11/2013 1:51:45 PM PDT by marshmallow
My friends know that I appreciate candor, and that I can be frank to a fault. I don’t tolerate it well when everyone in the room is desperately trying to ignore the proverbial eight-hundred pound gorilla sitting in the corner.
Author Sherry Weddell does not tolerate this well either.
And she would like us – “active” and presumably committed Catholics, lay, religious, consecrated and clergy – to focus on one rather large gorilla sitting in the corner of our contemporary Church: the reality that a disturbingly large proportion of Church-going Catholics fail to live as disciples of Jesus – as intentional disciples.
That message is at the heart of a sorely needed reality check she provides in her new book, Forming Intentional Disciples: the Path to Knowing and Following Jesus.
She begins by sharing some disturbing statistics she has extrapolated from her own analysis of a 2008 study by the Pew Research Center. Among them:
• Only 30 percent of Americans raised Catholic are still “practicing” (which in the survey meant “attending Mass at least once a month”).
• Another 38 percent hang on to the Catholic label – cultural Catholics – but seldom or never attend Mass.
• The other 32 percent no longer consider themselves Catholic. Of these, 3 percent follow a non-Christian religion, 14 percent consider themselves "unaffiliated," and 15% have joined a Protestant faith community.
Weddell observes:
“[W]e have asked hundreds of diocesan and parish leaders from sixty dioceses throughout the English-speaking world this question: What percentage of your parishioners, would you estimate, are intentional disciples? To our astonishment, we have received the same answer over and over: ‘Five percent.’”
More troubling still is her discovery – after working with hundreds of parishes, and personally interviewing a couple thousand practicing Catholics, most of........
(Excerpt) Read more at catholicnewsagency.com ...
You might want to get in on this.
You might want to get in on this."
That's gonna leave a mark...
I see that in my parish and I would despair but I know God is in charge. I have read the Bible, I know how many times the Israelites turned their backs on God and I feel that these are those times, repeated again.
It isn’t just Catholics it is people of all faiths, most aren’t affiliated with any church. In our small town the 2 Catholic churches have more members than the other 40 or so churches combined. I often wonder how they are paying the utility bills.
“and 15% have joined a Protestant faith community. “
Great news anytime someone follows Christ. Wise men still seek Him.
tiki,
while it won’t be admitted here, I see that churches that are theologically sound and culturally relevant, are growing. Churches that have one or none of those are shrinking - without regard to denomination.
Millennials, in particular, eschew the irrelevant and are attracted to culturally relevant messages. When those messages are based on God’s Revelation, in a setting that speaks to them, there are never enough seats.
It is very unfortunate and even painful for me to contemplate, but the Catholic Church has no standing to pontificate about Christian living at this time.
bkmk
Bookmark.
Are you saying that faithful Catholics don't follow Christ?
38% "seldom or never" attend Mass. 3% follow a non-Christian religion. 14% "unaffiliated".
Better to practice no faith at all than to be a believing Catholic, hmm?
“Are you saying that faithful Catholics don’t follow Christ? “
I’m saying every faithful CHRISTIAN follows Christ, and it is always a reason to rejoice.
Agreed, but that doesn’t answer the question.
An interesting article, and no doubt, a book worth reading. However, I don’t share the author’s optimism. I say this, not because I see no evidence of any turn-around in the Church (although I don’t), but because a “problem” in any organization rarely just “happens”. Problems occur because of some generally identifiable cause, and the problem rarely goes away until the cause is identified and addressed. This has not been done.
It’s unfair, I recognize, to take issue with a book I haven’t read, but from the review by Father Berg I must conclude that Ms. Weddell does not suggest any reason why the faith of today’s modern Catholic is so weak. Or saying that another way, she doesn’t identify what she believes to be the cause of the problem she has defined. But to go further with Father Berg’s gorilla analogy, this failure to identify the root cause of the problem is not the 500 pound gorilla in the room––it’s the 1000 pounder. And interestingly, Father Berg doesn’t seem to have too much of a problem ignoring that one.
Long before Ms.Weddell began researching the subject of her book, traditional Catholics recognized that most “practicing” Catholics today are hardly distinguishable from any faithful Protestant. But more importantly, anyone who has taken the time to read traditional Catholic publications like Catholic Family News over the past 10 years, knows that traditional Catholics have not hesitated to lay the blame squarely at the feet of the modernist bishops who embrace the errors of the Second Vatican Council that are responsible for these problems. Until those errors are faced up to and rejected by the Catholic clergy (bishops and priests alike) the only change we will see in the Catholic Church will be a further diminution of the faith.
“Agreed, but that doesn’t answer the question.”
If you understand what I posted, what I meant by what I posted and agree with what I posted, why are you trying to stir up animosity among FRiends?
What have you to gain by doing that?
Don’t worry. Be happy.
Luther was wrong, so are they.
sure they do, always have, always will!!
...traditional Catholics have not hesitated to lay the blame squarely at the feet of the modernist bishops who embrace the errors of the Second Vatican Council that are responsible for these problems. Until those errors are faced up to and rejected by the Catholic clergy (bishops and priests alike) the only change we will see in the Catholic Church will be a further diminution of the faith.If traditional Catholics wish to put the blame on modernist bishops, they of course are free to do so, but I would put the blame more on the individual [cool, lukewarm, or blaming] parishioner.
“Luther was wrong, so are they.”
I doubt Luther played into their decision at all, but perhaps you can find one and ask him or her. Then you will know.
Make sure they know what they believe and why.
...teach the childrenAmen!
I gather your use of “CHRISTIAN,” and that you apply it to those who have left the Church, is intended as a perhaps underhanded assertion that Catholics are not, in fact, such. Why then, I wonder, “are you trying to stir up animosity among FRiends? What have you to gain by doing that?”
“I gather your use of “CHRISTIAN,” and that you apply it to those who have left the Church, is intended as a perhaps underhanded assertion that Catholics are not, in fact, such. Why then, I wonder, “are you trying to stir up animosity among FRiends? What have you to gain by doing that?”
My use of Christian refers to ALL who have entrusted themselves to Christ and follow him.
All true believers will rejoice in that - as indeed the “angels in heaven rejoice”...
.
Because everything in the Catholic Church truly necessary for personal spiritual growth is already there. The Most Holy Eucharist, Reconciliation, Adoration, sacramentals as the rosary, the miraculous medal, the brown scapular, and aid from the angels and saints, etc...........
I disagree with this very strongly. It is not enough at all to have the Eucharist, but to also recognize it for what it is and teach others the same. In my area there is not a single Mass which is even remotely reverent. They are, and I mean this literally, hootenannies. There is no longer any sense of the sacred at any moment during any Church service. The priests love to say with their mouths that the Eucharist is God, but then they act in the presence of our Lord as if he were nothing more than a cracker, and everyone else joins in. Frankly, Catholics are more reverent in a museum or a library than they are in a Church, and this goes for the clergy. And we should wonder why young people drift away? Who wouldn't?
Most of our communication is not verbal. Young people, attending sacramental events with their parents, are constantly being taught and little of that is with words. Once in a while a priest may refer to the presence of Christ in the Eucharist, but much more often everybody walks around and talks and carries on as if there were nothing more sacred happening in that building than does at breakfast in a Shoney's. Are we really supposed to expect people to believe our assertions of faith in the Eucharist in spite of what is going on during the Mass? Anyone would either think that we do not believe that God is present in the Mass, or that if He is then he is so unimportant as to merit no attention or thought as we carry on singing about how wonderful we all are.
Added to this is the lack of reverence for God in general. Listen during the next homily you are present during and consider how the priest refers to the Lord. Does he ever use any title of reverence for the Lord or his Blessed Mother? None do in my area, and I doubt they do anywhere these days. No, now we live in an age of just throwing around the Holy Name as if it were nothing more than any word. The Blessed Virgin has ceased to deserve anything more than just her given name, as if she were nobody. If you think I am exaggerating, just ask yourself whether you would ever hear a priest during a homily refer to a little old lady in the Church as anything other than Mrs. Such-and-so. Would he just call her Debbie? Probably not. Would he call another priest Bob? I doubt it. That man would get the honorific of Father, but the Lord doesn't get anything at all. Not Christ, Lord, or anything. Nope. I remember when the religious order that used to run our parish gave out a sheet explaining the history of the order, and it was filled with "Saint This" and "Venerable That" for all the founders of the order, and all the clergy were "Reverend This" or "Father That" without a single omission. But, throughout this document the Holy Name was printed some ten or fifteen times, and not many fewer for His Blessed Mother, and did they receive the least honorific or title? Not a single time. Not once. Just consider who was being treated with reverence and devotion in that document. It wasn't the Lord or his Mother that I can tell you. And I have never heard or seen anything different when clergy are speaking. What does it teach to people to hear that difference?
Today there is no sense of reverence, sacrality or devotion to that which is holy, and people learn that every day and then act on it. And guess what, they act with indifference and rejection, because it deserves that. You think those who learn what they are taught are lazy? But, if so, what are all of those who insist on teaching them this indifference to God and his Holy Church? You want to know what is driving people from the faith? It is this disregard and irreverence which is rife in the Church today. Until we restore some sense of the sacred and then help foster a real Catholic identity among the young people in the Church things will continue as they are now.
Looking at the numbers, when your religion tells the world how many English speaking Catholics there are, the real number is 30% of what your religion claims...
Again, using these numbers, only 15% of Catholics believe in a personal relationship with Jesus...
And while those 15 percent may believe in a personal relationship with Jesus, only 1.5% of all those Catholics are what is termed, intentional Catholics...And look at those numbers of Catholics in the article who don't even believe Jesus is divine...
Yet Weddell not infrequently discovered many who – upon sharing with her their own experience of the faith – did not believe in the divinity of Jesus, or who intimated that that they don't even believe in a personal God at all
But here again, if Weddell has touched a nerve, that may well indicate that she is exactly right in her assertion that a vast majority of Catholics lack in their self-understanding the very category of committed, active “discipleship” that should be in the very DNA of baptized Christians.
That is where the ship hits the coral reef...There can be no spiritual understanding when there is no spirit involved...You don't get understanding with water baptism, you only get wet...
To get there, most people need to cross at least four other thresholds: first they need to trust – to trust those in whom they see modeled something which they themselves lack: a robust and joyful living of a personal relationship with Jesus.
And this is where the flotsam and jetsam of the of the Catholic ship washes up on the beach...
By trusting in other Catholics you will learn how to be Catholic...And this will NOT get you a joyful living of a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, by copying someone else...A personal relationship with Jesus is not mimicking your neighbors...
God says you must trust in Jesus to become a Christian, not other Catholics...
One can not have a personal relationship with Jesus unless Jesus is living within you...
Having crossed this threshold, they would then ideally become imbibed with curiosity about Jesus. That curiosity would then be nourished and grow to genuine openness to learning more about Jesus, which would then move them to seek Jesus actively; then – and only then – they would be in a position to take the final step to following Jesus as an “intentional disciple” in the midst of his Church.
The only curiosity to learn about Jesus then would be an intellectual curiosity...For an actual Christian, this curiosity about Jesus happens the instant one is baptized with the Holy Ghost...It's not at the end of the line as it is for Catholics...
There are no unintentional Christians as compared to unintentional Catholics...
Another interesting point is that 15 percent of all Catholics leave and join Protestant churches...
Rom_15:12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.
2Co_1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us.
1Ti_4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe
Heb_2:13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
Boy that Pew Poll is something else. Can you believe they polled over a billion people? Now that’s impressive.
The basic problem is that the catechesis of the vast majority of Catholics is just lousy. Lousy. Most of them were exposed to some very complicated teachings when they were children, and they retained only a smattering of what they were taught. In many cases what they retained wasn’t enough to give them a strong faith that would sustain them during life’s great challenges. Even today, most catechesis is poor.
But there is hope. Many adults are coming into the Church—here in the Archdiocese of Washington the catechumens have to go through the National Shrine in shifts because even that huge space isn’t enough to hold them all at once. The advent of social media, EWTN, Catholic radio, and more Catholic publishers has helped. Small groups like the Institute for Catholic Culture get people excited about learning about their faith. In my own parish, located in a hotbed of liberalism, a lecture series on the philosophical underpinnings of Catholic theology, with special emphasis on Aquinas, drew SRO crowds. Other parishioners jammed a lecture hall for a more-rigorous-than-usual catechists’ class. People really are hungry for learning.
So yes, there may be many who fall by the wayside, but the new converts are full of passion, and a remnant will keep the teachings of the Church.
What errors? If they need be faced up to, then it stands to reason they need be identified.
This is also in the poll, but not being played up by the liberal media.
“While the findings of the survey are an obvious concern to Catholics, they first must be understood within the larger context of the study, something that many of the sensational stories did not do. The survey showed that 44 percent of adult Americans are no longer practicing the religious affiliation in which they were raised as children, which means that, across the board, only 56 percent of American adults are still adhering to their childhood affiliation. Since 68 percent of those baptized and raised Catholics are still Catholic, that means that the Catholic Church is doing well relative to the American norm.
Compared to Catholics, only 60 percent of Baptists, 58 percent of Lutherans, 49 percent of Pentecostals, 48 percent of Methodists, 48 percent of Church of Christ members, 44 percent of Episcopalians, and 36 percent of Presbyterians, are still practicing in the Church of their childhood. The only major religious affiliations that are doing better than the Catholic Church in retaining their members are the Jews at 74 percent and the Mormons at 72”.
You think those who learn what they are taught are lazy?Yes! Isn't most everyone to some degree? Lord knows I'm lazy, and I know all about the Eucharist! So shame on me twice.
those are the ones who find it much easier to be a protestant....just find a group, out of thousands, who agree with your opinions and join it.Catholics have to go to confession, you'll just have to ignore your misdeeds because Christ paid your dues. You can much more easily believe that the eucharist is crackers and grape juice(no wine please, it has alcohol in it)rather than the actual Body and Blood of Christ.....matrimony....you'll get to say it's not sacramental and if I want to divorce and remarry, go for it...God doesn't care. And, not least of all, I'd much rather play golf on Sunday morning than be mandated to attend Mass.............see how easy it is???
Catholics do this as well...Just on these thread we see where Catholics are pew jumping to parishes all over the place...And they are encouraged by other Catholics...
Catholics have to go to confession, you'll just have to ignore your misdeeds because Christ paid your dues.
Christians go to confession every day...Sometimes all day long...Difference is we go straight to God to confess...We don't waste our time confessing to and asking forgiveness from another sinner just like ourselves, as God tells us to in the scriptures...
You can much more easily believe that the eucharist is crackers and grape juice(no wine please, it has alcohol in it)rather than the actual Body and Blood of Christ.....
John the Baptist wouldn't touch alcohol...And sure it's much easier to believe that a cracker and grape juice when it looks, tastes, feels, smells and sounds like a cracker and grape juice...
If one of your priest claims to turn my red Monte Carlo into a banana split but I can still climb into it and drive it away when he's done, Nah, it's still a red Monte Carlo...Especially when we know that God never told your priest to do magic tricks...
matrimony....you'll get to say it's not sacramental and if I want to divorce and remarry, go for it...God doesn't care.
Or, as Catholics are encouraged to with their almost equal number of divorces, hey, I can just get an annulment so divorce is not big deal...
And, not least of all, I'd much rather play golf on Sunday morning than be mandated to attend Mass.............see how easy it is???
C'mon...We all know a typical Mass is a ghost town when it comes to men...
It's sort of like the gal who is 50 pounds overweight, owns slick gym equipment that was given to her, and yet she still complains that no one encourages her to use it. It's right there! Hop on!
I am sorry, but it is nothing like this. This analogy relies on a person who already knows how to fix their problem and then blames others. Faith doesn't work that way. It must be kindled, especially among the young. When priests and bishops go through the motions and behave with no sense of the sacred whatsoever it says more to the young than their empty words. They can preach about the Lord in the Eucharist (not that they do of course) but it means much less to people than what they do. Hypocrisy will not sell among the young. Young people are not going to go and research the truths of the faith because they are not inspired to believe it in the first place. Why is that? Because nothing happens in the churches to inspire them, and this is because there is no Catholic identity or sense of the sacred. This is what is strangling the modern Church. Blaming uninspired people for not doing research or study on a subject which means nothing to them because of the empty rhetoric and indifference of preachers, priests and bishops (among others) is to entirely miss the point. The modern Church is infected with indifference and modernism and it is driving out the young and inquiring, and that is not the fault of the victim but those who have the responsibility to teach and lead.
Because you can't MAKE dull priests be "on fire," without first praying them there, and who better to do that than parishioners who believe the Eucharist is the True Body of Our Lord Jesus Christ?
Yes, that is so, but it doesn't change the fact that modernist priests will teach and behave as they themselves believe, and that means every day of the week and not just on Sunday. Until we get Catholic priests, not just "on fire" ones, we are not going to do much better. Until we insist on living a Eucharistic faith, and not just talking about it we won't do much better. And that means not just receiving Communion more often, but behaving as if we, all of us including the priests, believe what we say when we enter a church. In other words we have to restore our sense of Catholic identity as a body if we are going to move forward, and that means getting rid of modernist priests and clergy first and foremost. Until that is done nothing else can be accomplished. But, by all means, don't stop praying. That we all have to do.
The basic problem is that the catechesis of the vast majority of Catholics is just lousy. Lousy.
I have to agree with this, but I think it is actually a red herring. Learning lists, or facts, or any of this is fine and good, but it won't keep people in the Church unless they can see it in action. We love to print books about the Eucharist, but then every day we walk around our churches without so much as a howdy doo to the Lord reserved there. We no longer genuflect, and even bowing is becoming passe. Nods or simply ignoring the tabernacle is more standard now.
What good is it to teach people what the Eucharist is if we are all going to then behave as if it were just a cracker? Honestly, next time at Mass just watch and consider this question. Would anybody walking in off the street, knowing nothing about what we believe or do and speaking no word of our language, ever form the opinion that we worship as God what is reserved in the tabernacle or the bread we receive at communion? This is what young people see and learn from, and no amount of school learning will ever change that.
I love what you wrote: “pound the heavens for help from the angels and saints”, because sometimes it seems that just “knocking” isn’t going to work, LOL... Blessings, HK
LOL... my caffeinated way of expression... happy someone appreciates it. Thanks!
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By their fruits shall ye know them and non-Catholic imitation Christianity is obviously producing some amazing fruits.
Thank God this country isn't the horrible place it was fifty years ago, right?
This snarky-snark;
at once rather backfires upon your own statements, while giving ever support for my own here contention, for "fifty years ago" when the American cultural ethos was in fact more predominately "Protestant" mindset than not as to morals and behavior (unwed motherhood was a shame, "shacking up" was frowned upon, being a hopeless anti-theist burden and leach upon society and taxpayer was condemned, etc.) then the culture was much more upright, cleaner in word and deed, though the U.S. has always been a nation of rank sinners too, Roman Catholics included.
Thank you for this post, it does add some perspective to the whole subject. It is telling that it is always the Catholic Church that is talked about in the media. It is the Church and held up to a higher standard. Rightly so and it will withstand all this as it has withstood centuries.
Of course a percentage of those attending Mass are not fully committed to living as a disciple of Christ. It is the same in Protestant assemblies. On Sunday every one is a Holy Roller and then away from church, they are living as sinfully as ever.
The difference is that in the Protestant world, there is no longer any condemnation for what is sinful behavior. I don’t mean to imply that ALL Protestants no longer treat sin as sin, but that in the “judge not lest ye be judged” world, no emphasis is placed on the eternal consequences for sin.
I watch a few Protestants ministers and while they do expound on how to follow Christ and live faithfully, it is almost always with an eye to the rewards in this life rather than in the next.
Unfortunately, much of that attitude has seeped into the Catholic’s faith. Clergy are hesitant to preach on these things for fear of offending parishioners. But the truth is known and the Church has not softened her teachings in that truth.
That is why Catholics quit coming. It is too uncomfortable to be a Catholic in this world. I waited eight years to receive the Eucharist because my marriage was not Sacramental. God’s grace gave me the forebearance to wait for that reward when it would have been easier to leave and become a Protestant.
Talk to Catholics who have left and you will find most fall into two categories: those who say they “found Jesus” in hand clapping, foot stomping services or they were hurt or offended by something or someone.
I agree there is a general irreverence for God in American society that has been growing since the sixties.
Remember the lyrics in that Sheryl Crow song, “What if God was one of us? Just a slob like one of us?”
To too many Christians, Jesus was a nice guy we should try to emulate rather than the Son of God and our Savior.
Satan’s greatest accomplishment hasn’t been to convince people he doesn’t exist, it has been to convince people they don’t need God’s grace.
Devout Catholics understand that Mass is to worship and honor our Lord Jesus Christ. Mass is not to entertain us. The Catholics that don’t understand this are prime pickings for Jimmy Swaggart and the Bible thumping protestant preachers.
Sheryl Crow didn’t sing that song, it was Joan Osborne.
LOL, thanks, I thought it was Sheryl. Happy to say I am fairly ignorant of most contemporary artists.
I think sometimes it has to do with narcissism and conceit. Worse than forgetting who God is, some forget who we are.
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