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Posted on 10/12/2013 9:34:46 AM PDT by NKP_Vet
Not at all. I am proposing that she was predestined to be the Mother of Our Savior, and everything she had, including her holiness, was a gift from Him "Who did great things for her."
There's no such thing as "personal merits" in some sense isolated from God. He certainly gives greater and gives less, as He wills. Jesus said of John the Baptist, "Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he." Greater and lesser are both gifts.
Our Lord's remark about the "biological reductionism" of His Mother to womb and breasts, in no way reduces the honor she has as one who "heard the word of God and kept it." She heard it so well it entered her, and she got pregnant with God.
It saddens me that you take eery opportunity to belittle her who was so honored by Him. Surely He observed, and still observes the Commandment to honor His Mother. It gives me joy to do so. How beautiful she is!
“This refers to God fulfilling his promises, not the Messiah. “
Yes. God’s promises to MARY.
“Blessed is she (Mary) who has believed that the Lord would fulfill his promises to her (Mary)!”
This does not mean that earlier Elizabeth meant God. She meant Messiah. Jew’s did not believe Messiah would be God. Nor do they today.
Check out what John was told when he bowed to someone other than God in heaven. Courtly behavior indeed. Not so much.
“In short, the doctrine is “about” Christ, not Mary.”
We simply disagree.
God never calls Mary by that title. He could have. He never does.
No one in Scripture calls Mary by that title.
No one refers to her that way until 240 years after Christ’s birth.
It was simply added later, as many such things - perpetual virginity, assumption, sinlessness, etc. Accretions of the centuries that are not Biblical.
“On the other hand, some people are holier than others.”
No they are not. All believers are holy because of His holiness. Mary is no more holy now than the newest believer who has entrusted herself to Christ just moments ago.
Mary does share one blessing with all who are now in the presence of the Lord - no more sin nature.
OH really? Then tell me. Why did the Holy Spirit when referring to Mary always have the writers refer to her as “the mother of Jesus” rather than what Catholics refer to her as “mother of God”? Do you really think the Holy Spirit didn’t think to use the Catholic term?
My soul magnifies the Lord,
And my spirit rejoices in God my Savior.
For He has regarded the low estate of His handmaiden,
For behold, henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
For He who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is His name. And His mercy is on those who fear Him from generation to generation.
He has shown strength with His arm:
He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
He has put down the mighty from their thrones,
and exalted those of low degree.
He has filled the hungry with good things;
and the rich He has sent empty away.
He has helped His servant Israel, in remembrance of His mercy;
As He spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to His posterity forever.
Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit.
As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen
Magníficat ánima mea Dóminum,
et exsultávit spíritus meus
in Deo salvatóre meo,
quia respéxit humilitátem
ancíllæ suæ.
Ecce enim ex hoc beátam
me dicent omnes generatiónes,
quia fecit mihi magna,
qui potens est,
et sanctum nomen eius,
et misericórdia eius in progénies
et progénies timéntibus eum.
Fecit poténtiam in bráchio suo,
dispérsit supérbos mente cordis sui;
depósuit poténtes de sede
et exaltávit húmiles.
Esuriéntes implévit bonis
et dívites dimísit inánes.
Suscépit Ísrael púerum suum,
recordátus misericórdiæ,
sicut locútus est ad patres nostros,
Ábraham et sémini eius in sæcula.
Glória Patri et Fílio
et Spirítui Sancto.
Sicut erat in princípio,
et nunc et semper,
et in sæcula sæculórum.
Amen.
She became the Mother of God, in which work so many and such great good things are bestowed on her as pass man’s understanding. For on this there follows all honor, all blessedness, and her unique place in the whole of mankind, among which she has no equal, namely, that she had a child by the Father in heaven, and such a Child . . . Hence men have crowded all her glory into a single word, calling her the Mother of God . . . None can say of her nor announce to her greater things, even though he had as many tongues as the earth possesses flowers and blades of grass: the sky, stars; and the sea, grains of sand. It needs to be pondered in the heart what it means to be the Mother of God.
(Commentary on the Magnificat, 1521; in Luther’s Works, Pelikan et al, vol. 21, 326)
Do you think Mary’s mother knew Mary was predestined to be the Mother of Our Savior? Or her father?
breathman lives!
“It saddens me that you take eery opportunity to belittle her who was so honored by Him.”
Keep in mind, this is a leap you’ve made, most likely due to the weakness of your claim. I never belittled her at all. I simply pointed out that, if you claim she is holy because of her relationship with Christ, or holy because she received it from God but at the same time received it from herself, it is a contradiction. If it is all from God, as you seem to assert, then you do well, and I do not dislike it, since it follows that all whom God saves have the noticeable marks of righteousness that follows all Christians. Though I would still dispute if you are meaning to say that she is spotless of sin by God’s gift, since all men are sinners, even those who receive it from the Father to keep His word.
Rom_3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
“Our Lord’s remark about the “biological reductionism” of His Mother to womb and breasts, in no way reduces the honor she has as one who “heard the word of God and kept it.” She heard it so well it entered her, and she got pregnant with God.”
Certainly it reduces her from the Roman Catholic heights, which imagine her as “the guardian of our peace and the minister to us of heavenly grace, who is placed on the highest summit of power and glory in Heaven,” or that she stands in the throne room of judgment, and leaps in to save sinners from Christ’s judgment, based on the number of rosaries prayed.
I do not diminish the unique blessing of being the mother of the Lord. I simply reduce her from being your God, since it does not follow that she “gave birth to Jesus,” therefore “she saves us from Jesus Christ through her intercession.”
Generally, Protestants make too little of Mary and Romans too much...
We enjoy your deep theologically sound study and contributions. Truly! We do!! Thank you for participating.
Matthew 5:19
"Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
Matthew 11:11
"Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he."
If everything and everybody were, by necessity, equal, then it would be impossible to speak of "growing" in grace. We grow because we CAN grow; because God can cause this increase in us; there IS such a thing as greater or lesser grace.
2 Peter 3:18
"But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen."
Credo in Deum Patrem omnipotentem;
Creatorem caeli et terrae.
Et in Jesum Christum,
Filium eius unicum, Dominum nostrum;
qui conceptus est
de Spiritu Sancto,
natus ex Maria virgine;
passus sub Pontio Pilato,
crucifixus, mortuus, et sepultus;
descendit ad inferos;
tertia die resurrexit a mortuis;
ascendit ad caelos;
sedet ad dexteram Dei Patris omnipotentis;
inde venturus est
iudicare vivos et mortuos.
Credo in Spiritum Sanctum;
sanctam ecclesiam catholicam;
sanctorum communionem;
remissionem peccatorum;
carnis resurrectionem;
vitam aeternam. Amen.
In English:
I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.
I believe in Jesus Christ,
his only Son, our Lord.
He was conceived
by the power of the Holy Spirit,
and born of the Virgin Mary,
He suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
He descended into hell.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
he will come again
to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy Catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen
I know I do! Everytime I go to the grocery store, I scan the cereal box aisle, looking for YOPIOS cereal. I’ve asked the manager and he’s trying to find out the manufacturer so he can order a supply. I love our grocery store manager. Always so helpful. Just like narses!
I wonder what interpretation gave us indulgences and self-flagellation?
Wow a predestination Catholic! We have loads to discuss:)
Another Protestant tradition that is not in Scripture.
On the contrary, it is among the oldest of commandments in the book.
Deuteronomy 66 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart: 7 And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up. 8 And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.
Note what was identified as commandment of God, the word of God, even the holy writ. That makes the Word, supreme, with Christ much ratifying that, in each and every occurrence in which in His own dealing with those who would pervert or change the word of God by their own teachings and traditions, would say to them in rebuke " It is written", even also to the devil himself;
I could go on, but that's enough for now...
Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.
Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, “be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect.” We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.
Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.
Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.
Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God’s graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.
1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead’s behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory. These verses directly correspond to 2 Macc. 12:44-45 which also shows specific prayers for the dead, so that they may be forgiven of their sin.
Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and “under the earth” which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.
2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.8). Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.
Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed during our lives, in the transitional state of purgatory.
Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are “made” perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits are in purgatory.
1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the “prison.” These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.
Rev. 21:4 - God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. Note the elimination of tears and pain only occurs at the end of time. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory.
Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. The word “unclean” comes from the Greek word “koinon” which refers to a spiritual corruption. Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, or considered unclean, and must be purified before entering heaven. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed.
Luke 23:43 – many Protestants argue that, because Jesus sent the good thief right to heaven, there can be no purgatory. There are several rebuttals. First, when Jesus uses the word “paradise,” He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew “sheol,” meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord’s resurrection. Second, since there was no punctuation in the original manuscript, Jesus’ statement “I say to you today you will be with me in paradise” does not mean there was a comma after the first word “you.” This means Jesus could have said, “I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise” (meaning, Jesus could have emphasized with exclamation his statement was “today” or “now,” and that some time in the future the good thief would go to heaven). Third, even if the thief went straight to heaven, this does not prove there is no purgatory (those who are fully sanctified in this life – perhaps by a bloody and repentant death – could be ready for admission in to heaven).
Gen. 50:10; Num. 20:29; Deut. 34:8 - here are some examples of ritual prayer and penitent mourning for the dead for specific periods of time. The Jewish understanding of these practices was that the prayers freed the souls from their painful state of purification, and expedited their journey to God.
Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory.
Zech. 9:11 - God, through the blood of His covenant, will set those free from the waterless pit, a spiritual abode of suffering which the Church calls purgatory.
2 Macc. 12:43-45 - the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the age-old teaching of purgatory. As a result, he removed Maccabees from the canon of the Bible.
It means she gave birth to a person who was God: Jesus Christ Our Lord.
Joseph was Jesus' stepfather. Mary was His mother. She gave Him birth. All Christians know that.
I'm sure there are some catholics who do believe The appellation leads to confusion; Do I understand you correctly that
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
that mother of god does not mean mother of god ?
it to be a true statement. There are some on this board
that believe it to be a true statement.
and who is the father of confusion ?
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