Posted on 10/15/2013 8:47:46 AM PDT by Gamecock
Rattled by Pope Francis’s admonishment to Catholics not to be “obsessed” by doctrine, his stated reluctance to judge gay priests and his apparent willingness to engage just about anyone — including atheists — many conservative Catholics are doing what only recently seemed unthinkable:
They are openly questioning the pope
The wary traditionalists became critical when, in an interview a few weeks ago, Francis said Catholics shouldn’t be “obsessed” with imposing doctrines, including on gay marriage and abortion. Then earlier this month, Francis told an atheist journalist that people should follow good and fight evil as they “conceive” of them. These remarks followed an interview with journalists this summer aboard the papal airplane in which the pope declared that it is not his role to judge someone who is gay “if they accept the Lord and have goodwill.”
(Excerpt) Read more at washingtonpost.com ...
This is the same pope that excommunicated the Australian heretical priest Greg Reynolds, right . . . ?
“the pope declared that it is not his role to judge someone who is gay “if they accept the Lord and have goodwill.””
“But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.” (1 Corinthian 2:15)
IMO if you’re not willing to question ideas or leaders based on conscience, you’re not sincere/don’t really care about your faith.
Anyone can show up on Sunday, nod and throw a five note in the basket.
C’mon man. The Pope is not running in a GOP primary. Archbishop Dolan explained that the Pope meant these are not the ONLY matters Catholics should talk about.
Who gave Catholics the right to question any of the Pope’s statements and teachings? If he’s the successor to Peter then would they criticize Peter in the same way?
No he’s not running in a primary. What he’s doing is much more important, which is why he should be careful with his tongue. Either he means what he says or doesn’t. When his teaching stands in opposition to Scripture, Bible-believing Christians will call him on it. Christians are taught in Acts 17 to be Bereans. We are to search the Scriptures with diligence to see if what we are being taught is true.
Scripture gives you that right. In fact, Scripture cries out for you to test all things, to compare and contrast what your leaders are teaching with the Word of God. How else can you know if you are following a wolf in sheep’s clothing? If the Bible isn’t your fixed standard your faith is in the opinions and ideas of men.
Many have and did question the Pope, I mention Martin Luther, There are many Christian Church’s and they all at one time left Catholicism.
There have been many Popes, some good and some bad.
I believe Pope Francis is a good man but terribly Naive’
I think there is someone on FR who posts “What the Pope Really Said” threads in response to the propagandist (mainstream media) story lines. I find that by reading direct translations in context the Pope is often saying something entirely different, sometimes exactly opposite, of what he is reported to have said.
Indeed. There are always people willing to cover for Rome.
I have seen it go both ways. What I have read in his transcripts visa-vis homosexuals is basically a re-vamp of love the sinner hate the sin. This is typically twisted by the leftists into acceptance of homosexuality. On the other hand I have read transcripts of the Pope speaking on economics and sounding dangerously like the social justice tyrants. This I have seen conservative catholics try and twist into a traditional “help the poor” narrative.
“Questioners” of the Pope were chased into the mountains of France and often killed. Is Francis now going to say people should follow their consciouses?
I think only when it agrees with him. Bring the man a basin of water for hand washing.
The only reason there’s a question about Pope Francis’ statements is due to publications such as the WaPo deliberately misunderstanding them.
“Catholics shouldn’t be “obsessed” with imposing doctrines, including on gay marriage and abortion.”
Pope Francis made it clear that it was necessary to do two things: preach the truth and welcome sinners with open arms so that they may accept forgiveness and not be estranged by the church.
He made it abundantly clear that you can’t change the mind of people if you are only hurling insults against them.
“people should follow good and fight evil as they “conceive” of them.”
Our reasoning abilities are not always clear. We must follow our consciences and act accordingly.
“declared that it is not his role to judge someone who is gay “if they accept the Lord and have goodwill.”
There is no such thing as a world where EVERYONE agrees on what is moral and what isn’t. Otherwise we would not have needed Jesus Christ.
In other words, the Pope is reminding us that the Our Father, the prayer taught by Jesus when he walked this earth, says, “Forgive us our trespasses
AS WE FORGIVE THOSE WHO TRESPASS AGAINST US.” Christ also taught that we must forgive if we are to be forgiven.
I once heard a priest say that “Love your neighbor as you love yourself,” does not mean that you must love your neighbor in the sense of what we mean by love today, and we often have neighbors whom we don’t even like. What love your neighbor means that we must love the soul that God created.
Why should anyone trust the Washington ComPost to write an unbiased article.
As for this person from the article: One client recently quit, saying, “I’m much more of a Pope Francis-Nancy Pelosi Catholic,....”
I don’t see any coorelation between what Pope Francis has said and what Ms. Pelosi proclaims as her “Catholic” beliefs. But then, I’m merely a Protestant.
NO!
In looking for the exact ruling on when "Papal Infallibility" comes into play, (my own memory was good but not precise on wording), I came across this good definition on Wikipedia:
According to the teaching of the First Vatican Council and Catholic tradition, the conditions required for ex cathedra papal teaching are as follows:
So it must come in the context of a formal Papal Encyclical on the subject at hand. Speaking "off the cuff" doesn't count.
Also please remember: the Pope himself has to go to confession - the Pope has a confessor. Nobody claims the Pope is perfect, not the Pope himself.
I’ll probably be the twentieth Catholic to respond, but the fact is we certainly CAN question the pope on anything unless and until he speaks from the chair of Peter (ex cathedra). The pope is as fallible as we are at all other times.
I can’t yet blame this debacle on the pope. He seems incredibly innocent about how his Jesuit order may have spun his interview. But as a resident of South America he should have been somewhat aware of the order’s divergent views, especially on Christology.
Yep... Our Pope speaks softly but is very much doctrinally sound.
O.K., Help me out here, the Pope(s) has spoken “ex cathedra” very few times so all other statements, being fallible, can be questioned and if contrary to individual conscience, not followed in belief or practice?
Are not Catholics bound to follow his (Popes) teaching authority even outside of “ex cathedra” pronouncements?
True, Paul did but I know of no Catholic that claims to speak with the authority Paul did. Obviously this was no minor thing as holy spirit guided Paul to include it in the Scriptures.
You are surely far more familiar with the Catechism than I, what does it say on the subject of criticizing the Pope?
Have you read Galatians lately?
Yup, he is willing to say that a priest who gives the Eucharist to animals is no priest. Frankly if he weren't willing to take that stand than I'd say not only is he not conservative, he's not Catholic. So he passed that test at least.
In a broader view, it seems to me that Francis' general philosophy is "if they are good people, who am I to judge?" which begs the question of how you judge whether they are good people in the first place. But Francis answered that when he said that people should be judged on whether they are good within their understanding of good and their own value system. But you cannot know what's in their minds so you therefore cannot judge them. Or anyone for that matter. In this way he wishes (it seems) to lead us to a totally non-judgemental, all inclusive church.
If that's what he really wants than maybe Saint Malachi got it right when he predicted this was the last Pope.
Most of the comments people are talking about don’t even rise to the level of “teaching”; they’re just the Pope’s personal opinions on things. When he wants to “teach,” he’ll do so in a formal document, not a letter to a private individual, interview with a reporter, etc.
Galatians? yes. And? Don’t be shy, just say what you are trying to say!
St. Catherine of Siena rebuked -- very respectfully and lovingly, but still a rebuke -- the Pope of her time for continuing to live in Avignon rather than in Rome.
I don’t know how you arrive at that conclusion or it’s basis in past official teachings or the Catechism but if so then it is still left to the individual to decide what is a formal document, etc.
Is Francis going to say “This is a formal teaching that must be followed”? Or are his words going to be taken as the leading of the spirit and therefore spiritual guidance or discipline?
Did she speak with apostolic authority? Was there a rule that Popes must live in Rome? Not a good example.
The Wikipedia Catechism?
There's no ambiguity to "decide". A formal document is an encyclical, a bull, an apostolic constitution, etc. Not an interview with "La Stampa".
Soon we’ll be seeing the pope mobile with one of those “COEXIST” bumper stickers on it.
Weird, whenever I read his words, it gets even worse. I suppose it’s because I understand his universalism quite well.
Yeah, I usually look up things on The Official Catechism Website. But I was in a rush, and... IT IS CORRECT!
If it's correct, at least in this case, then I don't knock it. (And it came up high in the results list....)
The heart is desperately wicked and deceitful above all else. Why would someone want to follow that, no matter what they call it?
We have Scripture as an absolute, objective standard of what is right and wrong. We don't go by feelings or impressions, or whatever.
Thanks for posting. This article about sums up all the previous articles on Pope Francis.
Then his publicist, interpreter and 8 Cardinal panel that reviews his stuff before being released all need to be fired. Do you really think they release what he says without someone looking at it critically and then handing it back to him for approval? I tell you maybe some fly by night operation will do that but not the Vatican. I think it is telling the Pope received a thank you note from NARAL. NARAL for heavens sake!! JPII is rolling the tombs of popes.
Again, you are assuming a bunch of cardinals and advisors got it wrong too. Below is an exact quote from Francis. It was in the context of homosexuals and atheists. So please tell me how that is hating the sin?
"God forgives those who obey their conscience"--Pope Francis
It is no surprise Pope Francis is peddling his version of the Latin American Liberation Theology he grew up with. You are right he is cloaking it in the usual "helping the poor" when he is advocating the usual communist dialectic.
Well the message was not received. Francis' message is loud and clear. The RCC has its arms wide open to accept your sin as long as your conscience is fine with it. Go ask NARAL, they got the message loud and clear...They sent him a thank you note!!!
And that’s a good example of what I described, “left to the individual to decide”.
Problem is your pope never explained that...Dolan is just trying to cover for you pope who apparently doesn't want to be covered...
Well put. One of the main reasons I remain Protestant despite my agreeing with Roman Catholicism on many points(mainly life and the natural family).
I am not obligated to accept any heretical teaching...whether from the pope or anyone else (in fact, I am obligated to at least resist it).
Apparently though that means other Catholics here get to sit in judgment on whether I am a Catholic (and therefore bar me from posting in Catholic Caucus threads).
I would agree that there are times when what Francis has said was taken out of context, came from media bias, etc., but not all of it. I am not so blind as to not see when his words are twisted. HOWEVER, I am also not so blind to see when his words ARE NOT twisted.
And lately? His words are not twisted.
But if he is the POPE, doesn’t he have an OBLIGATION to speak as a CATHOLIC POPE? Not just a guy in a white cassock?
But you describe a conundrum perfectly.....a very sincere Catholic looks to the Pope for spiritual leadership but finds some of his pronouncements completely unacceptable no matter how explained or spun. What's that person to do? You say if the teaching is heretical you must resist, others have said unless it is some official teaching the Popes opinion is just that and can be ignored.
Submission to the Pope or submission to one’s conscience?
Neither. Submission to the Traditional teachings of the Catholic Church. Before Vatican II Catholics didn’t have to make a judgment call between what the Pope did/said and what the Church taught for hundreds of years.
Not to belabor a point but it seems many a Catholic finds Vat.2 the source of endless evils and it sounds like you view it as forcing Catholics into an either or position, “Traditional teaching” or...or what would you call it? Bordering on heresy?
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