Posted on 10/16/2013 5:29:46 AM PDT by Gamecock
Novelist Lars Walker — a friend of this blog and an insightful reviewer of some of my own novels — makes a trenchant comment in the Elizabeth Smart post below. I know it’s trenchant because I was about to make basically the same comment but Lars beat me to it! In the comment, he makes a delightfully concise reference to “the Osteenian view that suffering is always a sign of God’s displeasure.” This, of course, refers to popular preacher Joel Osteen, who has been promoting his new book at the Blaze and other places. He basically preaches that God wants wonderful things for your life and you only have to open yourself to God’s will in order to receive those blessings.
I stumbled on Osteen before he was famous. It was more than ten years ago, when I was wrestling with my own conversion to Christianity. I was struggling deeply with the fear that faith would limit my freedom of thought (it didn’t) and the idea that I might be betraying my Jewish heritage. Late one night, while channel surfing, I came upon one of Osteen’s half hour sermons on some religious channel. I (who generally dislike religious programming) was bowled over by him. He was brilliant at conveying God’s love for his human creation and I found his words very moving and comforting. I remember telling my wife about him over our morning coffee. I was well aware of the intellectual flaw in “the Osteenian view.” If God wants only good things to happen to us, and we have to “activate his blessings,” by our positive prayers and good actions, then indeed, as Lars says, suffering must always be a result of some failure on our part. Still, I found his optimism and generosity of heart compelling.
And there is some Biblical support for his point of view. “A righteous man may have many troubles, but the Lord delivers him from them all,” says the Psalmist, whereas “Evil will slay the wicked.” This attitude dominates both Psalms and Proverbs. But it is offset by Job and Ecclesiastes. The latter tells us: “Here is a pointless thing that happens on earth: A righteous man receives what happens to the wicked, and a wicked man receives what happens to the righteous.” And Jesus, who knew a thing or two, remarked that the sun shines on the evil as well as the good and the rain falls on the just and unjust alike.
Not surprisingly, the Bible is right on both counts. That is, of course, in general, a good life is likely to make you happier than a bad one, and good habits will probably make you healthier and more prosperous than bad ones. No good parent tells his child, “My son, go forth and treat yourself and others like garbage, it’ll be great.” There’s a reason the proverbs say what they say.
But at the same time, bad things do happen to good people and life is unfair and it’s important to include that in your philosophy lest you end up blaming the victims — or God — for the evils of this fallen world. For a few years after I first saw Osteen, I followed him, read his books and listened to his sermons sometimes… then I stopped. I don’t mean this in any way personally. I have no reason to think he’s other than a good guy spreading the Word as it comes to him. But I personally began to find his philosophy… well, unhelpful.
The preacher in my novel True Crime comments that if you want to have faith, you have to believe in a “God of the sad world.” I think that’s clearly true. For me, one of Christianity’s central assets is that it’s a tragic religion — which is to say, a realistic one. The son of God prayed for release from a dreadful death and his prayer went unfulfilled. That tells you something, something you need to know in order to live with patience and wisdom. It’s not that God is absent, it’s that (as Job discovered) the moral context of life is larger than mortal man can comprehend. Which can make things very, very difficult at times. Tragedy is what we know; redemption is what we believe; that’s why they call it faith instead of knowledge.
I appreciate Osteen’s good will. I enjoy his warmth and spirit. I really like the visceral way he convey’s God’s love. But in the end, if you don’t have a sense of evil and unfairness, I don’t think you can preach truly.
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In the religious world of so-called christianity there are many deceivers, Osteen and many like him are the rule, not the exception.
Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Ro 16:18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
On my 2.5 hour round trip commute, I’ve listened to the bible on mp3 for the last several months. I’ve “burned through” the NT several times and am currently up to the end of Ezekiel, having re-listened to many parts before continuing on.
I now see Proverbs as wisdom 101, Ecclesiastes as wisdom 301 and the NT as wisdom 401. I used do go to a mega church. I was actually saved and the next week started going to one (that is one of the more interesting “coincidences” in my life).
And the author nails the warnings in Ecclesiastes. Frankly, I think that when one is focused on the good or bad happening in this life, they are focused on the wrong thing. In my small baptist church in rural KY, everyone knows I see this life much like a video game. I put a quarter in back in 1954 and am playing as best as I can, but it is not my “real” life. Sure, I come out in how I play the game and, as a Christian, I try to play by the rules, but I know that the enemy lurks behind rocks and sometimes I am tried by “bad things” happening to me or those I love.
But in the end, it’s Game Over, and then I’m in the “real world”. What matters then is if I am Christs or not. I’ve made my choice. What happens in this life is all there for teaching and the gaining of wisdom, be it apparently good or bad.
And one last analogy: The professor in school that made your life most miserable was also the one you learned the most from.
2 Cor 11:4
For if someone comes along and preaches another Jesus than the one we preached, or should you receive a different spirit from the one you received or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you are all too willing to listen.
—
Osteen definitely preaches another “Jesus” and gospel from a different spirit.
“the Osteenian view that suffering is always a sign of God’s displeasure.”
That is most ridiculous thing I have ever heard!
I guess God was showing His “displeasure” with Jesus, when he received stripes for our healing, and when He bore our sins on the cross....
I guess God was also angry with all of the Apostles when they were beaten and put to death!
No, in this world, we will all have trouble and The Lord delivers us out of them all. If we do everything perfect and nothing bad ever happens, then why would we need God or Jesus for that matter? No, it is in the bad times that our Love for Him is proved through faith, just like Abraham.
Olsteen is preaching a false Gospel.
To add to your observations. They never want to talk about Jesus, saying if I have suffered, why would you expect less.
Job’s conclusion was that God is God and I am not in my paraphrase.
I don’t know about the rest of you but it is ONLY in the troubling/hard areas of life that I turn to him and have had my greatest growth and gotten to know Him.
I have started to pay for troubles for people. It is the most encouraging of prayers as it always gets answered.
Several ‘progressive Christians’ do this with Rob Bell being the worst.
Go was showing his displeasure with us, and taking it out on Jesus.
I guess God was also angry with all of the Apostles when they were beaten and put to death!
I think you are missing the point, but not by much. Osteenology doesn't answer the question on pain and suffering. To him if you do everything right God will "prosper" you. No room for pain and suffering.
In the religious world of so-called christianity there are many deceivers, Osteen and many like him are the rule, not the exception.
A lot of Chirstians today say they don't want doctrine, just want to love Jesus.
Ask the so who is Jesus? Hopefully they will answer the Son of God. Congratulations! That is doctrine!
Problem is they don't think deeply enough about the most important thing going. And that is God as he is revealed in Scripture.
Go=God.
Because the Cross is offensive - it says that you can never be “good” enough of your own efforts.
It’s also offensive to say that the Cross is the ONLY WAY, condemning everyone that doesn’t accept the gift offered through it.
People were offended by the Ark, too, and for the same reason: “You say you’re going to be the only one to live because you obey God? And the rest of us are condemned? How arrogant and rude!”
Heb 11:7
By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that is in keeping with faith.
I don’t think you can preach truly.
In our responses, sometimes we tend to communicate only the correction and suffering.
“The son of God prayed for release from a dreadful death and his prayer went unfulfilled.”
What Christ prayed was, “if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me.” He always prayed, “Thy will be done.” He concluded that the cup could not pass from Him until He first drank from it. After He drank from it, the cup did pass from Him, and He was raised from the dead.
I’m not trying to split hairs, but I take issue with the idea Chirst’s prayer was unfulfilled. God the Father ALWAYS answered His Son’s requests because His Son ALWAYS did His Father’s will.
I understand that Christ, in His humanity, did not want to go to the cross. And this seems to be the point of the above statement, but the statement is not technically correct.
But the illustration of Christ’s prayer does support the main argument against the fallacy that God’s perfect will means never having to suffer. Victory is the ultimate outcome but not continuously realized by having a trouble-free life.
ping
Same here, but from a slightly different perspective. God made it possible for the cup to pass from His Son. At any time, Jesus could have called down a host of angels to rescue Him from his assignment. Yet Jesus put the Father's will ahead of his own. He laid down His life by choice. And through unimaginable pain, He was obedient to the very end.
If we are born again, we need to feed the new spiritual man and the only food that strengthens our new man are Gods Words, not some preachers interpretations of His Words, including Rick Warren.
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
“Ask who is Jesus?”
An answer I would give also...he is the great God and our Saviour.
Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
You are so right without Doctrine we all would be left with nothing but old wives fables,(1Ti 4:7 But refuse profane and old wives’ fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.)
Ro 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
1Ti 4:6 If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.
1Ti 4:13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.
2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
Tit 2:1 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:
Tit 2:7 In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,
Tit 2:10 Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.
Sorry for the long post, but once I get started, it is hard to stop.
For me, it comes down to one thing. When asked if Jesus is the only way to God, Osteen hemmed and hawed and stumbled over his answer. This happened twice, on O’Reilly’s show and on Larry King. No minister of the Gospel should have a problem answering that question.
Olsteen’s message sometimes come too close to comfort to oprah and other “positive thinking” gurus. Was looking for a new church recently. Went to several - some were typical mega-churches with shuttle buses, overflow crowds - rock concert lighting and fog machines. Everyone on stage had tattoos, even the minister. Message was very good but as we tried to ‘plug in’ and get to know people we found that no one there knew anyone. It was more or less a random group every week - there was no real fellowship - just a sunday concert. Later i was at a coffee shop and one of that church’es ministers came in, set next to me, and began interviewing a young person for a ministerial staff opening. They seemed focused on numbers vs. scripture. Don’t believe they even discussed the candidate’s spiritual condition or the message of the church. It was like any other number crunching corporate job interview. We never went back. But to be honest our suspicouns about the church had peaked while my wife was downing one of their starbucks fraps one sunday morning in the ‘cafe’ outside the worship ‘theater’. But i was far too busy downing a huge plate of pancakes, scrambled eggs, hash browns and sausage gravy biscuits from the ‘restaurant’ right outside same theater. In America, there is no body of Christ anymore - it has faded away into little pockets. Now there is just ‘theater’.
Every time I see Mr. Osteen on the T.V. I think of a used car salesman or snake oil salesman. It immediately sets my teeth on edge. HE is like many other t.v. preachers, the package gets in the way of the message. GOD told me to tell you to send me money and we both will be happy !!
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Saying we believe something is not practicing faith. Actually getting out of the boat and stepping onto the water is.
I can’t agree with you more. Churches appear to be just club houses. But, it may be that churches are the mission field which is something I have to wrap my mind around because that is not my expectation or the way I grew up.
I have stopped going to church for now. Digging in on my own and have found a few warriors like me. My wife and I study the Bible together. When led, we will go back out.
Within every denomination, church, there is a remnant. We are the church, it is not the man made organization, the building. Go find the church, it is there but not easy to find. I did hear a sermon once on “be the church”. That one still inflicts pain for me.
And then there is Revelation chapters 2 and 3. When was the last time you heard a sermon on that?
Amen.
And my point is the same. That is doctrine. Contrary to what many would say.
I wouldn’t trust anyone who smiles all the time.
By their fruits .. and fleets of aircraft and autos, ye shall know who they are.. nuff said.
So how does one discern the everyday trials and sufferings from the times one is being disciplined? Never heard anyone address this nor any Bible verses come to mind.
John 10:10 Amplified Bible
10 The thief comes only in order to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have and enjoy life, and have it in abundance (to the full, till it overflows).
If you get the full revelation of what Jesus is saying in John 10:10, the world becomes far less confusing. There is no darkness in Light, no evil in Good, and no selfishness in Love.
I suspect God will make it clear when that happens.
As a possible example, if you drink and drive and then get into some sort of accident or arrested, I would say that is discipline. If you get hit by a drunk driver, that may be trials and suffering, of course YMMV.
By their haute coutured trophy wives, ye shall know them.
Prayer=Question
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