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SSPX leader denounces Vatican II, Novus Ordo liturgy [Catholic/SSPX Caucus]
Catholic Culture ^ | October 15, 2013

Posted on 10/16/2013 8:48:30 AM PDT by NYer

The head of the traditionalist Society of St. Pius X (SSPX) has denounced Vatican II, described the post-conciliar liturgy as “evil,” and said that he is grateful the group never reached an accommodation with the Holy See.

In a provocative address to the Kansas City audience, Bishop Bernard Fellay said: “It is has never been our intention to pretend either that the Council would be considered as good, or the New Mass would be ‘legitimate.’” He said that although the Novus Ordo Mass introduced after Vatican II may be valid, “The New Mass is bad, it is evil.”

Bishop Fellay told SSPX supporters that talks with the Vatican, designed to regularize the status of the breakaway traditionalist group, collapsed last June because the Vatican insisted on acceptance of the teachings of Vatican II. The SSPX leader flatly rejected the teaching of Pope Benedict XVI that Vatican II statements should be read in the light of consistent Catholic teaching. “The Council is not in continuity with tradition,” he said. “It’s not.”

While the SSPX leader said that the “hermeutic of continuity” preached by Benedict XVI was unrealistic, he acknowledged that the former Pontiff was somewhat sympathetic to the concerns of traditionalists. Under Pope Francis, he said, the gap between the SSPX and the Holy See is widening.

“When we see what is happening now,” Bishop Fellay said, “we thank God—we thank God!—we have been preserved from any kind of agreement” with the Vatican.

The harsh words from the SSPX leader appear to signal an end to any realistic hope for a reconciliation between the traditionalist group and the Holy See, and an indefinite continuation of the schism that began in 1988 when the late Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre ordained Fellay and three other bishops in defiance of orders from Pope John Paul II.

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TOPICS: Catholic; Religion & Culture; Worship
KEYWORDS: catholic; fellay; francis; pope; popefrancis; sspx; vatican; vcii
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1 posted on 10/16/2013 8:48:30 AM PDT by NYer
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To: Tax-chick; GregB; Berlin_Freeper; SumProVita; narses; bboop; SevenofNine; Ronaldus Magnus; tiki; ...
From Rorate Caeli

For the record - Bishop Fellay: "we thank God, we have been preserved from any kind of Agreement"

2 posted on 10/16/2013 8:49:50 AM PDT by NYer ("The wise man is the one who can save his soul. - St. Nimatullah Al-Hardini)
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To: NYer

I’m sorry to say he’s likely right. Schism the likes of which we haven’t seen in centuries may be coming. The modernists will again cull from the priesthood any man who will fight for traditional morality and against sin.
Welcome to the United Church of Rome.
Kumbayah indeed.


3 posted on 10/16/2013 9:04:57 AM PDT by steve8714 (Are we fighting for peace in Syria? Don't we already know what that is like?)
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To: NYer

I sense that the chief reason why next spring both Blessed John Paul II and Blessed John XXIII are being declared saints is to be seen as a call to Catholics, both conservative and liberal to be at peace.


4 posted on 10/16/2013 9:07:52 AM PDT by Biggirl (“Go, do not be afraid, and serve”-Pope Francis)
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To: steve8714

Highly doubt it.


5 posted on 10/16/2013 9:08:10 AM PDT by Biggirl (“Go, do not be afraid, and serve”-Pope Francis)
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To: NYer

Unfortunately, they will have to learn a hard lesson. Let’s pray for them.

Father, please forgive them, for many of them know not what they do.


6 posted on 10/16/2013 9:25:02 AM PDT by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo....Sum Pro Vita - Modified Descartes)
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To: NYer

I know many people will be upset at this news, and say that it is a sin and horrible and so on. However, do they not just follow their consciences? And doesn’t that save them just as it does the atheist? And are we not, as Catholics, called to encourage them to seek what they see as the Good, which is just what they are doing? Or are we at this forum more Catholic than the pope?


7 posted on 10/16/2013 9:34:57 AM PDT by cothrige
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To: steve8714; Biggirl; NYer
I see the SSPX also just honored the unrepentant Nazi war criminal Erich Priebke by giving him a quasi-Catholic funeral in Rome:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/deaconsbench/2013/10/hundreds-protest-as-sspx-holds-funeral-for-nazi-war-criminal-in-rome/

8 posted on 10/16/2013 9:51:36 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (" I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge." - Romans 10:2)
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To: cothrige
However, do they not just follow their consciences?

The same is true for any individual or group that chooses to separate itself from the Catholic Church. The same argument applies here.

9 posted on 10/16/2013 10:00:36 AM PDT by NYer ("The wise man is the one who can save his soul. - St. Nimatullah Al-Hardini)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

If he was unrepentant, that is between him and God. The Church gave unrepentant murderer and abortion enabler Ted Kennedy an annulment to marry his whore, and then a funeral.


10 posted on 10/16/2013 10:35:29 AM PDT by steve8714 (Are we fighting for peace in Syria? Don't we already know what that is like?)
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To: Biggirl

John unintentionally did more harm than good, I fear. A holy man, but misinformed by persuasive modernists.


11 posted on 10/16/2013 10:37:02 AM PDT by steve8714 (Are we fighting for peace in Syria? Don't we already know what that is like?)
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To: steve8714

Cardinal Sean was wrong. Want to repeat that over and over and over again? It’s wrong every single time.


12 posted on 10/16/2013 10:37:26 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (" I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge." - Romans 10:2)
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To: steve8714

....Yet he is going to be declared a saint with Blessed John Paul II, to keep the peace between the two sides.


13 posted on 10/16/2013 10:38:14 AM PDT by Biggirl (“Go, do not be afraid, and serve”-Pope Francis)
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To: Biggirl

I’m OK with Roncalli personally, just the Council. Modernity in moral teaching is the enemy of charity and moral living.


14 posted on 10/16/2013 11:16:15 AM PDT by steve8714 (Are we fighting for peace in Syria? Don't we already know what that is like?)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

Yes, but it’s a mistake all churchmen make. The part of the Gospel they take most seriously is the woman accused of adultery.


15 posted on 10/16/2013 11:18:13 AM PDT by steve8714 (Are we fighting for peace in Syria? Don't we already know what that is like?)
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To: NYer

Bishop Fellay:

Does this mean, then, that you’re ready to join the sedevacantists?

Bishops Dolan and Williamson await your answer.


16 posted on 10/16/2013 11:51:31 AM PDT by IbJensen (Liberals are like Slinkies, good for nothing, but you smile as you push them down the stairs.)
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To: Biggirl

All popes following Pius XII are complicit in this creation of a new religion to replace the liturgy, tenants of the Roman Catholic Church.

How, then, can we be a peace when the Church has been hi-jacked by the modernists? Novus Ordo is anathema to Jesus Christ’s Church on earth.


17 posted on 10/16/2013 11:54:20 AM PDT by IbJensen (Liberals are like Slinkies, good for nothing, but you smile as you push them down the stairs.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
just honored the unrepentant Nazi war criminal

When I post a comment similar to yours pertaining to abortionists or whomever you say we don't know the state of the man's soul (at his death).

18 posted on 10/16/2013 11:57:36 AM PDT by steve86 (Some things aren't really true but you wouldn't be half surprised if they were.)
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To: steve8714
Most mainstream Catholics refuse to consider that the schism faction away from the modernist Church may actually be the authentic continuation of the true Church. Then again, it may not. I'm kind of agnostic on that.
19 posted on 10/16/2013 12:02:21 PM PDT by steve86 (Some things aren't really true but you wouldn't be half surprised if they were.)
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To: steve86
Well, I concede, you're right: I shouldn't have said "unrepentant," but just "apparently unrepentant,": since he left a 7-page letter which showed no repentance. So we saw no contrition pre mortem, in mortu or post mortem (if you can make out my ungrammatical Latin.)

The decision of Catholic clergy not to have a Catholic funeral for the man is not a judgment of his interior disposition at the moment of death, nor of his eternal destiny (neither of which we can know), but is a response to the exterior, knowable facts: that he had not practiced the Catholic faith and had expressed no interest in the Sacraments at any point in his adult life.

That's to the best of my knowledge as I understand it: there may be a lot there I don't know.

People still can, and still should, pray for Priebke: May the Lord have mercy on his soul. But I personally think that burying him "in the Church" would have been like kidnapping his corpse and trying to impose a Catholic identity upon a man who had rejected it. It strikes me as an act of presumption, or aggression.

Now this is a flight of fancy on my part, but I can imagine that if there were a Catholic funeral, Mr. Preibke would have risen up in flames, shrieking "No, Goddamn it, keep me away from that Jew Christ!"

20 posted on 10/16/2013 12:11:45 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("It's nowhere around here to get lost at.")
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To: steve8714
Dear steve8714,

I don't think the real question was whether Chappaquiddick Ted truly validly married Joan. It was clearly beyond him psychologically to enter into a valid marriage. One must be able to form clearly in one’s mind ideas like “monogamy,” “fidelity,” “sobriety,” “obligation,” “duty,” and “chastity” if one is to marry validly.

The REAL question was why the Church subsequently permitted him to attempt a second marriage. I have heard of annulment cases where at least one party to the putative, but ultimately declared null, marriage, was not permitted to again re-attempt sacramental marriage because of the psychological impediments that continued to exist in that party..


sitetest

21 posted on 10/16/2013 12:21:57 PM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: NYer

The “Catholic Caucus” label will be removed because the article discusses sedevacantists who are not members of the caucus.


22 posted on 10/16/2013 3:16:34 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: IbJensen

Careful now. The Catholics here will start to label you something other than Catholic. And then ban you from Catholic Caucus threads.


23 posted on 10/16/2013 3:45:50 PM PDT by piusv
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To: Religion Moderator
The “Catholic Caucus” label will be removed because the article discusses sedevacantists who are not members of the caucus.

Their excommunication was lifted by Pope Benedict XVI. The Catholic Church stil considers them as members, albeit their personal positions.

This thread remains a CATHOLIC CAUCUS.

24 posted on 10/16/2013 3:46:49 PM PDT by NYer ("The wise man is the one who can save his soul. - St. Nimatullah Al-Hardini)
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To: Religion Moderator

Thank you for that.


25 posted on 10/16/2013 3:48:09 PM PDT by piusv
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To: NYer

Thank you for saying this. I am most certainly a Catholic and have every right to reply to Catholic Caucuses.


26 posted on 10/16/2013 3:49:53 PM PDT by piusv
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To: piusv; Religion Moderator; Tax-chick; GregB; Berlin_Freeper; SumProVita; narses; bboop; ...
Thank you for saying this. I am most certainly a Catholic and have every right to reply to Catholic Caucuses.

Absolutely!! This thread is for discussion by CATHOLICS.

Attn: Religion Moderator: PLEASE RESTORE THE CATHOLIC CAUCUS STATUS.

27 posted on 10/16/2013 4:01:25 PM PDT by NYer ("The wise man is the one who can save his soul. - St. Nimatullah Al-Hardini)
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To: NYer

To be fair to the Religion Moderator, he is basing his actions on some guideline as to what kind of Catholic can respond to Caucuses. Perhaps it is this guideline that needs to be adjusted.


28 posted on 10/16/2013 4:04:26 PM PDT by piusv
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To: sitetest
I have heard of annulment cases where at least one party to the putative, but ultimately declared null, marriage, was not permitted to again re-attempt sacramental marriage because of the psychological impediments that continued to exist in that party.

That would seem like a no-brainer. I've wondered why a person considered incompetent to receive the Sacrament of Matrimony the first time automatically becomes competent the next time ... absent a clear conversion.

29 posted on 10/16/2013 4:06:34 PM PDT by Tax-chick ("The heart of the matter is God's love. It always has been. It always will be."~Abp. Chaput)
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To: NYer

And for those, like myself, who need a definition:

The term “sedevacantism” is derived from the Latin phrase sede vacante, which literally means “the seat being vacant”.[3] The phrase is commonly used to refer specifically to a vacancy of the Holy See from the death or resignation of a pope to the election of his successor. “Sedevacantism” as a term in English appears to date from the 1980s, though the movement itself is older. Going back to John XXIII or Pius XII, or Pius X.

Ah, for the days of the Merovingian papacy or the Protestant Reformation. (semi-sarcasm)


30 posted on 10/16/2013 4:41:39 PM PDT by GreyFriar (Spearhead - 3rd Armored Division 75-78 & 83-87)
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To: Tax-chick
Dear Tax-chick,

I've read that many annulments come about during the course of folks converting or being received into full communion with the Catholic Church. And many of these folks bring a whole set of luggage with them. I've known converts with two, three failed marriages prior to conversion. Since these folks are formally converting, it seems reasonable that many of them have learned something or have repented of something that makes it possible that they may attempt marriage again.

But regarding Chappaquiddick Ted, the man's basic lack of common decency or fundamental morality should have told against granting him permission to remarry.


sitetest

31 posted on 10/16/2013 5:03:25 PM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: sitetest

I was an RCIA sponsor for a man who was then in his 50s joining the church. He and his wife, a cradle Catholic, both had previous marriages. I got to know him very well - it was like bringing my father into the Church, he was even from the same part of the Midwest - and there was no question that both of them were practically unrecognizable compared to what they had been at the time of their first marriages.

They had not received Communion since their marriage, and the whole congregation at the Easter Vigil was sniffling when they went up together.

To be honest, I sometimes wonder if I’m “really” married, in spite of the assurance from some very respectable priests. But in the case of Ted Kennedy, good gravy, a sociopath is incapable of contracting Christian matrimony ... maybe even of legal marriage. Being stone cold nuts is always an exception.


32 posted on 10/16/2013 5:09:22 PM PDT by Tax-chick ("The heart of the matter is God's love. It always has been. It always will be."~Abp. Chaput)
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To: Tax-chick
Dear Tax-chick,

“To be honest, I sometimes wonder if I’m ‘really’ married, in spite of the assurance from some very respectable priests.”

LOL. Don't feel bad. I've entertained similar doubts, myself. My wife and I were so naive, so young, so stupid, so immature when we got married. We always say that we grew up together (especially having known each other since age 16).

But the bottom line is, we knew what marriage was, we knew it was permanent, we knew that in a Catholic marriage, there are three - you, me and God (kids come later, one hopes). We knew it was a vocation, and we believed that we were called to that vocation with each other, and that it is through marriage that spouses become holy.

After 30 years, it's worked for my wife!! She's a SAINT! Me? Well,... I'm married to a SAINT who prays for me all the time, so there's hope for me, too!


sitetest

33 posted on 10/16/2013 5:16:55 PM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: sitetest

We weren’t Catholic when we were married. My husband was unabaptized at the time. The Lutheran Air Force chaplain didn’t ask. Nonetheless, various pastors have said it’s good. Our pastor in Tulsa did a Catholic “verification” of our vows, so maybe that counts.


34 posted on 10/16/2013 5:26:54 PM PDT by Tax-chick ("The heart of the matter is God's love. It always has been. It always will be."~Abp. Chaput)
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To: Tax-chick

A “verification” of vows? Not sure I’ve heard of that.


35 posted on 10/16/2013 5:40:42 PM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: sitetest

Me, either. I’ve heard of a “clarification” of vows, where those unhappy souls are desperately searching for a loop-hole. Maybe the “verification” comes after the “clarification”, when that undotted I is found..


36 posted on 10/16/2013 5:46:44 PM PDT by smvoice (HELP! I'm trapped inside this body and I can't get out!)
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To: sitetest

Oh, whatever it was. Renewal? Restatement? I still don’t know if we’re married. If he decides to ditch us, whatever, freep that. Maybe he can walk away clean.


37 posted on 10/16/2013 5:57:29 PM PDT by Tax-chick ("The heart of the matter is God's love. It always has been. It always will be."~Abp. Chaput)
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To: NYer
The same is true for any individual or group that chooses to separate itself from the Catholic Church. The same argument applies here.

Why not? If atheists should be encouraged to be as atheist as possible because that is what they view as the Good, and if they are also saved by being such, then why should not liberal cafeteria Catholics be as they think they should be? Won't they be saved by being that too as atheists are saved by denying God?

But, as for the SSPX, I just think it is funny that the pope has not already publicly forgiven them and welcomed them back. Are they not lost sheep which he should be pursuing? And they are no more repentant than are atheists who do not seek faith, or homosexuals who live openly such lifestyles, and the pope seems to be okay with them. Don't the SSPX have consciences which compel them in their beliefs as those people do in their own? Sadly, such ideas rarely apply to those who simply believe as the Church did for almost 2,000 years. They are not welcomed back, but must make attestations of accepting every nuance of liberally interpreted VII ideas. They must apologise for every imagined offense. They must worship with the modern liturgy and praise it when asked about it. When a bunch of Anglicans who have historically denied numerous dogmas of the Church want to return no explicit avowals of any council "teaching" is required, and they are even allowed their own liturgy which was written by archheretic and murderer Cranmer. But, the SSPX are held to test after test, and are not even allowed to worship with the Church's own liturgy! And, the pope who cannot shut up about how we must support atheists in their atheism has nothing to say about supporting Catholics in their catholicism. Very sad, but only too typical.

38 posted on 10/16/2013 6:04:42 PM PDT by cothrige
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To: Tax-chick
Dear Tax-chick,

Convalidation? Radical sanation?

Convalidation requires renewal of vows (renewed consent). If you did that, you're married.

Radical sanation doesn't require renewal of vows. I think my brother-in-law and sister-in-law got one of these. I forget why they needed one. That's probably it, if you were baptized and your husband wasn't, which would be an impediment to marriage (I think that would be disparity of cult).

Convalidation or sanation, if you got either of these, you're pretty much married.


sitetest

39 posted on 10/16/2013 6:11:12 PM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: sitetest
Convalidation or sanation, if you got either of these, you're pretty much married.

I guess we must have. Our pastor at the time knew about this stuff. Tulsa is an orthodox place, in a flat, boring, tornado-prone way. I still miss the square-mile grids of everything.

40 posted on 10/16/2013 6:15:18 PM PDT by Tax-chick ("The heart of the matter is God's love. It always has been. It always will be."~Abp. Chaput)
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To: AdmSmith; AnonymousConservative; Berosus; bigheadfred; Bockscar; cardinal4; ColdOne; ...

Thanks NYer.


41 posted on 10/16/2013 6:21:29 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (It's no coincidence that some "conservatives" echo the hard left.)
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To: NYer

I can make it a “Catholic/SSPX Caucus” but the “Catholic Caucus” label excludes SSPX and Orthodox.


42 posted on 10/16/2013 7:05:00 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: NYer

By the way, the caucus designations on this Religion Forum have to do with maintaining peace on the threads, e.g. limiting discussion. It is not a theological statement.


43 posted on 10/16/2013 7:07:57 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: Religion Moderator

The SSPX is Catholic, just not very obedient and not very politic. But clearly validly ordained Catholic clergy. And yes, for many years an arguable ex-communication was in place, but that has been lifted.


44 posted on 10/16/2013 7:12:32 PM PDT by narses (... unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.)
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To: narses

Interesting but it doesn’t matter to the problem at hand. There are still Freepers who wish to call a Catholic Caucus that excludes SSPX (and Orthodox.)


45 posted on 10/16/2013 7:15:38 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: Religion Moderator

How? I mean the SSPX is an organization of priests, I don’t think even one of them posts here. How would excluding people who do not post here mean anything?


46 posted on 10/16/2013 7:17:23 PM PDT by narses (... unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.)
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To: narses

By excluding SSPX I mean that the “Catholic Caucus” designation excludes anyone who does not recognize the present Pope and Papal Infallibility.


47 posted on 10/16/2013 7:23:05 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: Religion Moderator

The SSPX explicitly recognizes both the Pope and all Dogmas of the Church, including the Vatican I declaration regards Papal Infallibility.

See http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2012/07/19/sspx-we-recognise-the-authority-of-the-pope/


48 posted on 10/16/2013 7:34:18 PM PDT by narses (... unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.)
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To: Religion Moderator; narses
Dear Religion Moderator,

I have to agree with narses and with anyone else who thinks that the SSPX is, at least for now, Catholic.

Their status is irregular, but their excommunications were lifted a few years back, and they recognize the pope as the Vicar of Christ.

Not sure what else would make them qualify.


sitetest

49 posted on 10/16/2013 7:59:05 PM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: narses
Again, it does not matter. The decision was made years ago after a long discussion on a thread where your co-religionists - particularly those who post caucus articles - argued the points at length.

Those who want to have the Catholic Caucus include sedevacantists must use the term "Catholic/SSPX Caucus." And if they wish to include Orthodox as well, they must stipulate "Catholic/SSPX/Orthodox Caucus" or "Catholic/Orthodox Caucus" as the case may be.

50 posted on 10/16/2013 8:02:56 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
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