Skip to comments.Pope Francis describes ‘ideological Christians’ as a ‘serious illness’ within the Church
Posted on 10/21/2013 9:32:05 AM PDT by armydoc
Pope Francis called for a more open-minded Church on Thursday, suggesting that when a Christian becomes a disciple of the ideology, he has lost the faith.
Francis said because ideology is rigid and non-inclusive, it pushes people away and leaves out the grace of God.
And, even worse, the Lord cannot be close to the people, Francis said.
The faith passes, so to speak, through a distiller and becomes ideology, he said. And ideology does not beckon [people]. In ideologies there is not Jesus: in his tenderness, his love, his meekness. And ideologies are rigid, always. Of every sign: rigid.
It is judgmental and without exception, which Francis says is not the Lords message.
The faith becomes ideology and ideology frightens, ideology chases away the people, distances, distances the people and distances of the Church of the people, he said. But it is a serious illness, this of ideological Christians.
He said the Church does not want to keep the door shut and the key in its pocket.
He also claimed Christians who lose faith and prefer the ideologies are rigid, moralistic, ethical, but without kindness.
The key that opens the door to the faith is prayer, he said. If there is no prayer, you always close the door.
A person who does not pray is arrogant, is proud, is sure of himself. He is not humble. He seeks his own advancement.
That being said, he also warned, It is one thing to pray, and another thing to say prayers. He said people who are obsessed with Christian ideology dont pray; they simply recite the same prayers theyve memorized years ago.
What’s left? Emotionology?
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
I think this is another way of warning us of repeating the “sins” of the Pharasees. And of doing something by rote, rather than understand WHY we do/pray it.
He pretty much lets us conservatives off the hook with this language, but Pelosi is definitly on it, imho.
Ideology is an aping of doctrine.
The Resurrection is not an ideology - it is a historical fact with profound spiritual importance.
The great conservative thinkers - like Edmund Burke and Russell Kirk - have warned against conservatives imitating ideological constructs like Jacobinism and Leninism.
Subsidiarity is insurance against ideology.
>>Francis said because ideology is rigid and non-inclusive, it pushes people away and leaves out the grace of God.
Sez the leader of the most rigid and rulebound part of Christendom.
Keeping a close watch on this Pope.
He is either very right or very wrong.
Overall I get what he is trying to convey, but he also seems to be loosing the Church from the moorings of the teachings of the Bible.
He seems to be advocating fervent worship, but his direction of worship without sound biblical mooring also could provide many with confusion on just who and what is being worshiped.
Frank, Frank, Frank.
Eiki: “An ideology is a set of conscious and unconscious ideas that constitute one’s goals, expectations and actions. An ideology is a comprehensive vision, a way of looking at things (compare worldview) as in several philosophical tendencies (see political ideologies), or a set of ideas proposed by the dominant class of a society to all members of this society (a “received consciousness” or product of socialization).”
IOW, you have an ideology, I have a world view.
Everybody has an ideology, it’s just that some refuse to admit it. I suspect Frank is using ideology to mean “bad ideology,” but that’s a really dumb thing to do.
This can be read on several layers. On the surface, I understand the argument. It is not controversial. It is what Christ would say.
We’ve been here before. Vatican II was not controversial (sorry to friends who disagree), it was just “heard” in creative ways, ways that gave license to that which was not intended. Layers of meanings were found, layers that were inferred not intended.
I believe that Francis may be naive. Many of the saints were naive, blessedly so. Naivete in Peter’s chair though could cost souls.
Need to pray on this, and hope that I am wrong.
The serious illness of the Church is the fear of preaching the Bible as written and risk offending someone. You cannot like some parts of God’s Word and ignore the ones you don’t like. It is all or nothing. You may not like what the Bible says about a certain topic but you can bet God isn’t interested in not offending you. His wrath is already upon us as stated in John 3:18 it is up to us to accept the gift He has offered us to escape that wrath and not think we are equal to Him and decide which of His Words we want to follow.
Eiki = Wiki. New keyboard.
Dumb question, dogmas are not ideologies. They are articles of faith. Faith is in the will, not in the mind. Holiness is in the will, not in the reason. Reason is the handmaiden of faith.
Everyone has a perspective. Some people adopt an ideology to represent their perspective. Not everyone does.
What is the difference?
An ideology has a precise answer for every one of life's questions, and the answer always leads back to a defined core of political beliefs - beliefs which trump any larger moral principles.
No. I'm not Catholic.
You miss the point. He is simply saying that love trumps all else. Nothing more. You can’t hate someone because they disagree with you. Nor, if you don’t show them love, will they ever come to agree with you. God is Love.
Comments like this really leave room for confusion and also allow others to define the meaning of his words in a potentially less than constructive fashion.
His comments do provide and worthy path for reflection but I am not certain they will be taken in the spirit they were intended.
Vatican Radio - October 17, 2013
Pope Francis at Mass calls for greater openness
Sounds good - now, will the Pope request that of the Muslims out there?
Of course, we know what the reply would be.
Crusades II - the only question is will it happen before, during, or after CW-II.
Whew, we’ve got a lot on our plate.
Sorry, but you are defining ideology as “bad ideology.”
Here is #1 definition from Random House Kernerman Webster’s College Dictionary.
1. the body of doctrine or thought that guides an individual, social movement, institution, or group.
Christianity is itself an ideology.
Well said. The Pope is a spiritual idealist in the mode of St Francis, he is not a beurocrat.
Indeed. “but we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;” I Corinthians 1:23
New Papal statement:
The gate isn’t really narrow. It’s as wide as we can make it. Y’all come! And you of the Faithful? You ain’t all that!
Which mean you define "love" by what the bible tells us about God - You don't define God by worldly notions of what constitutes "love".
When we come to know and love Christ, he loves us back and we take his love into every encounter we have with others.
Ideologies, good or bad, are things which can be manipulated and so can be strong temptations for those who depend on their own strength and wisdom instead of the strength and wisdom of Christ.
Where do you draw the line between ramaining faithful to “the whole counsel of God” and Ideology? It’s not phariseeism because the sin if the pharisees was hypocrisy. They didn’t practice what the preached. Nobody condones that. What is being tossed around as “ideology” here is something different than that but the Pope never quite defines it.
I don’t define love at all. God is.
>>All churches have man made rules. There are no exceptions.
Some have more rules than others. Most rules are administrative in nature and govern how to operate the church, not in who qualifies for communion, etc.
Absolutely correct. Thus, the Pope's devotion to helping the poor is an ideology. Is he saying this is a bad thing? Or is it just holding true to biblical precets that the world doesn't like what constitutes bad "ideology"? And if so, why?
“Christianity is itself an ideology.”
I believe it is not. (Perhaps there is a ‘faith’ pun there.)
All other religions are. (Human nature desires structure, rules, etc. for security. But humans cannot follow the rules (any rules). Islam as we see it appears attractive today for these reasons.)
Ideologies do not work. That’s why Christianity is different, and why God is the True God.
I wasn't referring to you personally in the post. My point was that the world wants to define God by its conception of love rather than defining love by what the bible tells us of God.
I have noticed that just excerpts of the Pope’s remarks in the press can be insufficient. This was part of his homily given at mass last Thursday.
There is more context, including his references to Bible verses, in the text of the article which I linked in Reply #19.
I’d start with finding out what he really said instead of these stupid articles that take soundbites from him and make a mountain out of a molehill.
Anybody got a link to the full speech.
Constantine destroyed Christianity for 1500 years.
Every Christian who has judged or sought to impose Christianity on anyone is a Constantine Christian with an ideology.
A true Christian is tolerant of sin even as he/she lives and espouses another way.
Muslims are all about ideology, judging, which leads to a will to sanction and enforce, which is Pharisaical and against Christ’s will.
Well lets see, drowned instead of sprinkled, once saved always saved, raise your hands and shout, baptism makes a baby born again, predetermination.............those don't sound administrative.
It looks like it would be posted on the page linked below (not there yet) - see also link in #19 above.
This pope will not destroy the Church but he’s doing the best job that he can do toward that effort. Our Lady of Fatima warned that many terrible things would happen to the Church, and we are now seeing that prophesy play out as no one could have ever imagined. The very foolish and uninformed will follow his heretical lead, but faithful Catholics will hold fast to the traditional teachings of our Church and pray that the Holy Spirit instill some truth in his heart. But through this all we have only one pope and he is it. And as painful and as incongruous as it may seem, this heretic will remain our pope until the Holy Spirit allows otherwise. God help us all.
You are defining not the difference between ideology and not-ideology, but rather the difference between (what you believe) to be True ideology and a variety of other ideologies that contain elements of truth and error to varying degrees.
That a belief system is True does not make it any less an ideology.
We have a winner. I love this admonition from the Pope... and I’m not even Catholic.
Who appears to be trying to affect change.
>>Well lets see,
>>drowned instead of sprinkled,
OK. This is a rule in some churches. Now, lets look at all the rules on baptism in the RCC. They have rules too, you know.
>>once saved always saved,
Not a rule. Just a misconception.
>>raise your hands and shout,
What kind of rule is that??
>>baptism makes a baby born again,
Not a rule. Just a belief.
Not a rule. Calvinists do belief in that, but they don’t have any litmus tests to determine if you were one of the elect.
>>.............those don’t sound administrative.
By non-adminstrative rules, I meant rules that keep you from a sacrament or a part of worship and rules that proclaim you separated from God unless you perform some act.
Well, we are not talking about “the world” . . . just the words of the Pope, which everyone wants to make out to be controversial when they are not. Jesus didn’t define love either. He just commanded that we love God, and love one another.
Go to any of those churches, tell them you want to join but don't agree with their man made doctrine. You'll see the other side of the door pretty darn quick.
raise your hands and shout, What kind of rule is that??
Never been to an Assembly of God?
Any church will let you sit in a pew but you have to agree with their rules to join in.
I stand by my statement.
Jesus is God and all scripture is God breathed. Thus, if God is love then love is defined as whatever the scripture tells us about God. The whole counsel of God. And the only reason the "words of the Pope" here are controversial is that they are essentially incomprehensible. He never comes close to defining what he means be ideology and is essentially talking in riddles. Platitudes and sophistries are no substitute for Pastorly wisdom.
In the Errors of Ideology chapter in the Politics of Prudence, Kirk discussed “ideology” as the tendency to think that we can find a “simple saving truth” or formula that will then substitute for true principles and character.
In reading the link that someone thoughtfully supplied on the prior page to the original article which had some direct quotes of the Pope's homily and its context to the teachings found in the biblical quotes he cites, this appears somewhat the sense of what he was saying.
I know people of faith that in expressing or discussing their faith, seem to elevate a particular item to a “door shutting” condition (the Pope's analogy) and say that others are not “Christian”, “saved”, or any of a number of things if they don't believe in “apostolic succession”, “sola scriptura”, “sanctity of life”, or some other sole formulaic statement above, or instead of, all else.
Kenneth Minouge, Russell Kirk and many other philosophic writers have pointed out the limitations of the term and not wanted to see it substituted for broader terms of belief or principles.
>>I stand by my statement.
Obviously, you have a problem with churches in general if you think that the AoG requires you to raise your hands and shout. I used to be AoG and I’m not a clapper or hand raiser. Never have been.
This is what Pope Francis trying to correct, fear of the need to preach the Bible.
I don’t think I like this new pope. At all.
I stand by my statement.