Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Pope Francis describes ‘ideological Christians’ as a ‘serious illness’ within the Church
Opposing Views ^ | October 21, 2013 | Sarah Rae Fruchtnicht

Posted on 10/21/2013 9:32:05 AM PDT by armydoc

Pope Francis called for a more open-minded Church on Thursday, suggesting that when a Christian “becomes a disciple of the ideology, he has lost the faith.”

Francis said because ideology is rigid and non-inclusive, it pushes people away and leaves out the grace of God.

“And, even worse, the Lord cannot be close to the people,” Francis said.

“The faith passes, so to speak, through a distiller and becomes ideology,” he said. “And ideology does not beckon [people]. In ideologies there is not Jesus: in his tenderness, his love, his meekness. And ideologies are rigid, always. Of every sign: rigid.”

It is judgmental and without exception, which Francis says is not the Lord’s message.

“The faith becomes ideology and ideology frightens, ideology chases away the people, distances, distances the people and distances of the Church of the people,” he said. “But it is a serious illness, this of ideological Christians.”

He said the Church does not want to keep the door shut and the key in its pocket.

He also claimed Christians who lose faith and prefer the ideologies are “rigid, moralistic, ethical, but without kindness.”

“The key that opens the door to the faith is prayer,” he said. “If there is no prayer, you always close the door.”

A person who does not pray is “arrogant, is proud, is sure of himself. He is not humble. He seeks his own advancement.”

That being said, he also warned, “It is one thing to pray, and another thing to say prayers.” He said people who are obsessed with Christian ideology don’t pray; they simply recite the same prayers they’ve memorized years ago.


TOPICS: Theology
KEYWORDS: homily; popefrancis
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-95 next last
Wow, where to start? Are we to strip Christ of His magnificent "ideologes"- the Incarnation, the Atonement, etc? Also- what are we to do with this "ideology" that denies ideologies- kind of an internal contradiction, no?
1 posted on 10/21/2013 9:32:05 AM PDT by armydoc
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: armydoc
“It is one thing to pray, and another thing to say prayers.”
2 posted on 10/21/2013 9:34:21 AM PDT by marron
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: armydoc

What’s left? Emotionology?


3 posted on 10/21/2013 9:35:00 AM PDT by DManA
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: armydoc

Matthew 10:34

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.


4 posted on 10/21/2013 9:39:52 AM PDT by MichaelCorleone (Jesus Christ is not a religion. He's the Truth.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: armydoc; NYer; zot

I think this is another way of warning us of repeating the “sins” of the Pharasees. And of doing something by rote, rather than understand WHY we do/pray it.


5 posted on 10/21/2013 9:41:38 AM PDT by GreyFriar (Spearhead - 3rd Armored Division 75-78 & 83-87)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: armydoc

He pretty much lets us conservatives off the hook with this language, but Pelosi is definitly on it, imho.


6 posted on 10/21/2013 9:42:27 AM PDT by RitaOK ( VIVA CHRISTO REY / Public education is the farm team for more Marxists coming.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: armydoc
Doctrine is not ideology.

Ideology is an aping of doctrine.

The Resurrection is not an ideology - it is a historical fact with profound spiritual importance.

The great conservative thinkers - like Edmund Burke and Russell Kirk - have warned against conservatives imitating ideological constructs like Jacobinism and Leninism.

Subsidiarity is insurance against ideology.

7 posted on 10/21/2013 9:42:44 AM PDT by wideawake
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: armydoc

>>Francis said because ideology is rigid and non-inclusive, it pushes people away and leaves out the grace of God.

Sez the leader of the most rigid and rulebound part of Christendom.


8 posted on 10/21/2013 9:43:12 AM PDT by Bryanw92 (Sic semper tyrannis)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: armydoc

Keeping a close watch on this Pope.

He is either very right or very wrong.

Overall I get what he is trying to convey, but he also seems to be loosing the Church from the moorings of the teachings of the Bible.

He seems to be advocating fervent worship, but his direction of worship without sound biblical mooring also could provide many with confusion on just who and what is being worshiped.


9 posted on 10/21/2013 9:43:56 AM PDT by rdcbn
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: armydoc

Frank, Frank, Frank.

Eiki: “An ideology is a set of conscious and unconscious ideas that constitute one’s goals, expectations and actions. An ideology is a comprehensive vision, a way of looking at things (compare worldview) as in several philosophical tendencies (see political ideologies), or a set of ideas proposed by the dominant class of a society to all members of this society (a “received consciousness” or product of socialization).”

IOW, you have an ideology, I have a world view.

Everybody has an ideology, it’s just that some refuse to admit it. I suspect Frank is using ideology to mean “bad ideology,” but that’s a really dumb thing to do.


10 posted on 10/21/2013 9:44:32 AM PDT by Sherman Logan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: armydoc

Wow.
This can be read on several layers. On the surface, I understand the argument. It is not controversial. It is what Christ would say.
But,
We’ve been here before. Vatican II was not controversial (sorry to friends who disagree), it was just “heard” in creative ways, ways that gave license to that which was not intended. Layers of meanings were found, layers that were inferred not intended.
I believe that Francis may be naive. Many of the saints were naive, blessedly so. Naivete in Peter’s chair though could cost souls.
Need to pray on this, and hope that I am wrong.


11 posted on 10/21/2013 9:45:37 AM PDT by Ouchthatonehurt ("When you're going through hell, keep going." - Sir Winston Churchill)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: armydoc

The serious illness of the Church is the fear of preaching the Bible as written and risk offending someone. You cannot like some parts of God’s Word and ignore the ones you don’t like. It is all or nothing. You may not like what the Bible says about a certain topic but you can bet God isn’t interested in not offending you. His wrath is already upon us as stated in John 3:18 it is up to us to accept the gift He has offered us to escape that wrath and not think we are equal to Him and decide which of His Words we want to follow.


12 posted on 10/21/2013 9:45:59 AM PDT by Resolute Conservative
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Sherman Logan

Eiki = Wiki. New keyboard.


13 posted on 10/21/2013 9:46:11 AM PDT by Sherman Logan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: armydoc

Dumb question, dogmas are not ideologies. They are articles of faith. Faith is in the will, not in the mind. Holiness is in the will, not in the reason. Reason is the handmaiden of faith.


14 posted on 10/21/2013 9:48:39 AM PDT by WriteOn (Truth)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Sherman Logan
Everybody has an ideology

Everyone has a perspective. Some people adopt an ideology to represent their perspective. Not everyone does.

What is the difference?

An ideology has a precise answer for every one of life's questions, and the answer always leads back to a defined core of political beliefs - beliefs which trump any larger moral principles.

15 posted on 10/21/2013 9:48:59 AM PDT by wideawake
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: Bryanw92
All churches have man made rules. There are no exceptions.

No. I'm not Catholic.

16 posted on 10/21/2013 9:49:31 AM PDT by DJ MacWoW (The Fed Gov is not one ring to rule the all)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: armydoc

You miss the point. He is simply saying that love trumps all else. Nothing more. You can’t hate someone because they disagree with you. Nor, if you don’t show them love, will they ever come to agree with you. God is Love.


17 posted on 10/21/2013 9:49:44 AM PDT by MrChips (MrChips)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Ouchthatonehurt

Well put.

Comments like this really leave room for confusion and also allow others to define the meaning of his words in a potentially less than constructive fashion.

His comments do provide and worthy path for reflection but I am not certain they will be taken in the spirit they were intended.


18 posted on 10/21/2013 9:51:38 AM PDT by rdcbn
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

>
Vatican Radio - October 17, 2013

Pope Francis at Mass calls for greater openness

http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2013/10/17/pope_francis_at_mass_calls_for_greater_openness_/in2-738150


19 posted on 10/21/2013 9:52:48 AM PDT by deks
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: armydoc

Sounds good - now, will the Pope request that of the Muslims out there?

Of course, we know what the reply would be.

Crusades II - the only question is will it happen before, during, or after CW-II.

Whew, we’ve got a lot on our plate.


20 posted on 10/21/2013 9:54:37 AM PDT by Da Coyote
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: wideawake

Sorry, but you are defining ideology as “bad ideology.”

Here is #1 definition from Random House Kernerman Webster’s College Dictionary.

1. the body of doctrine or thought that guides an individual, social movement, institution, or group.

Christianity is itself an ideology.


21 posted on 10/21/2013 9:57:03 AM PDT by Sherman Logan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: MrChips

Well said. The Pope is a spiritual idealist in the mode of St Francis, he is not a beurocrat.


22 posted on 10/21/2013 9:57:39 AM PDT by Williams (No Obama)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: Resolute Conservative

Indeed. “but we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;” I Corinthians 1:23


23 posted on 10/21/2013 9:57:46 AM PDT by ReformationFan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: armydoc

New Papal statement:

The gate isn’t really narrow. It’s as wide as we can make it. Y’all come! And you of the Faithful? You ain’t all that!


24 posted on 10/21/2013 10:00:10 AM PDT by Cletus.D.Yokel (Catastrophic Anthropogenic Climate Alterations - The acronym explains the science.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: MrChips
"God is Love."

Which mean you define "love" by what the bible tells us about God - You don't define God by worldly notions of what constitutes "love".

25 posted on 10/21/2013 10:01:36 AM PDT by circlecity
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: MrChips

Exactly!

When we come to know and love Christ, he loves us back and we take his love into every encounter we have with others.

Ideologies, good or bad, are things which can be manipulated and so can be strong temptations for those who depend on their own strength and wisdom instead of the strength and wisdom of Christ.


26 posted on 10/21/2013 10:02:58 AM PDT by pax_et_bonum (Never Forget the Seals of Extortion 17 - and God Bless Americad)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: armydoc

Where do you draw the line between ramaining faithful to “the whole counsel of God” and Ideology? It’s not phariseeism because the sin if the pharisees was hypocrisy. They didn’t practice what the preached. Nobody condones that. What is being tossed around as “ideology” here is something different than that but the Pope never quite defines it.


27 posted on 10/21/2013 10:04:37 AM PDT by circlecity
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: circlecity

I don’t define love at all. God is.


28 posted on 10/21/2013 10:06:38 AM PDT by MrChips (MrChips)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: DJ MacWoW

>>All churches have man made rules. There are no exceptions.

Some have more rules than others. Most rules are administrative in nature and govern how to operate the church, not in who qualifies for communion, etc.


29 posted on 10/21/2013 10:09:30 AM PDT by Bryanw92 (Sic semper tyrannis)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: Sherman Logan
"Christianity is itself an ideology"

Absolutely correct. Thus, the Pope's devotion to helping the poor is an ideology. Is he saying this is a bad thing? Or is it just holding true to biblical precets that the world doesn't like what constitutes bad "ideology"? And if so, why?

30 posted on 10/21/2013 10:11:32 AM PDT by circlecity
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: Sherman Logan

“Christianity is itself an ideology.”

I believe it is not. (Perhaps there is a ‘faith’ pun there.)

All other religions are. (Human nature desires structure, rules, etc. for security. But humans cannot follow the rules (any rules). Islam as we see it appears attractive today for these reasons.)

Ideologies do not work. That’s why Christianity is different, and why God is the True God.


31 posted on 10/21/2013 10:12:35 AM PDT by Scrambler Bob ( Concerning bo -- that refers to the president. If I capitalize it, I mean the dog.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: MrChips
"I don’t define love at all. God is."

I wasn't referring to you personally in the post. My point was that the world wants to define God by its conception of love rather than defining love by what the bible tells us of God.

32 posted on 10/21/2013 10:14:06 AM PDT by circlecity
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: y'all

I have noticed that just excerpts of the Pope’s remarks in the press can be insufficient. This was part of his homily given at mass last Thursday.

There is more context, including his references to Bible verses, in the text of the article which I linked in Reply #19.


33 posted on 10/21/2013 10:15:28 AM PDT by deks
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: armydoc

I’d start with finding out what he really said instead of these stupid articles that take soundbites from him and make a mountain out of a molehill.

Anybody got a link to the full speech.


34 posted on 10/21/2013 10:15:31 AM PDT by DannyTN
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: armydoc

Constantine destroyed Christianity for 1500 years.

Every Christian who has judged or sought to impose Christianity on anyone is a Constantine Christian with an ideology.

A true Christian is tolerant of sin even as he/she lives and espouses another way.

Muslims are all about ideology, judging, which leads to a will to sanction and enforce, which is Pharisaical and against Christ’s will.


35 posted on 10/21/2013 10:25:01 AM PDT by UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide (HELL, NO!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Bryanw92
Most rules are administrative in nature and govern how to operate the church, not in who qualifies for communion, etc.

Well lets see, drowned instead of sprinkled, once saved always saved, raise your hands and shout, baptism makes a baby born again, predetermination.............those don't sound administrative.

36 posted on 10/21/2013 10:25:50 AM PDT by DJ MacWoW (The Fed Gov is not one ring to rule the all)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: DannyTN

It looks like it would be posted on the page linked below (not there yet) - see also link in #19 above.

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/francesco/homilies/2013/index_en.htm


37 posted on 10/21/2013 10:26:33 AM PDT by deks
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: armydoc

This pope will not destroy the Church but he’s doing the best job that he can do toward that effort. Our Lady of Fatima warned that many terrible things would happen to the Church, and we are now seeing that prophesy play out as no one could have ever imagined. The very foolish and uninformed will follow his heretical lead, but faithful Catholics will hold fast to the traditional teachings of our Church and pray that the Holy Spirit instill some truth in his heart. But through this all we have only one pope and he is it. And as painful and as incongruous as it may seem, this heretic will remain our pope until the Holy Spirit allows otherwise. God help us all.


38 posted on 10/21/2013 10:27:22 AM PDT by tomsbartoo (St Pius X watch over us)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Scrambler Bob

You are defining not the difference between ideology and not-ideology, but rather the difference between (what you believe) to be True ideology and a variety of other ideologies that contain elements of truth and error to varying degrees.

That a belief system is True does not make it any less an ideology.


39 posted on 10/21/2013 10:29:41 AM PDT by Sherman Logan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: GreyFriar

We have a winner. I love this admonition from the Pope... and I’m not even Catholic.


40 posted on 10/21/2013 10:29:46 AM PDT by Frapster (frak)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: Bryanw92

Who appears to be trying to affect change.


41 posted on 10/21/2013 10:30:22 AM PDT by Frapster (frak)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: DJ MacWoW

>>Well lets see,

>>drowned instead of sprinkled,
OK. This is a rule in some churches. Now, lets look at all the rules on baptism in the RCC. They have rules too, you know.

>>once saved always saved,
Not a rule. Just a misconception.

>>raise your hands and shout,
What kind of rule is that??

>>baptism makes a baby born again,
Not a rule. Just a belief.

>>predetermination
Not a rule. Calvinists do belief in that, but they don’t have any litmus tests to determine if you were one of the elect.

>>.............those don’t sound administrative.
By non-adminstrative rules, I meant rules that keep you from a sacrament or a part of worship and rules that proclaim you separated from God unless you perform some act.


42 posted on 10/21/2013 10:35:20 AM PDT by Bryanw92 (Sic semper tyrannis)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: circlecity

Well, we are not talking about “the world” . . . just the words of the Pope, which everyone wants to make out to be controversial when they are not. Jesus didn’t define love either. He just commanded that we love God, and love one another.


43 posted on 10/21/2013 10:39:35 AM PDT by MrChips (MrChips)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: Bryanw92
I meant rules that keep you from a sacrament or a part of worship and rules that proclaim you separated from God unless you perform some act.

Go to any of those churches, tell them you want to join but don't agree with their man made doctrine. You'll see the other side of the door pretty darn quick.

raise your hands and shout, What kind of rule is that??

Never been to an Assembly of God?

Any church will let you sit in a pew but you have to agree with their rules to join in.

I stand by my statement.

44 posted on 10/21/2013 10:39:47 AM PDT by DJ MacWoW (The Fed Gov is not one ring to rule the all)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 42 | View Replies]

To: MrChips
"Jesus didn’t define love either. He just commanded that we love God, and love one another."

Jesus is God and all scripture is God breathed. Thus, if God is love then love is defined as whatever the scripture tells us about God. The whole counsel of God. And the only reason the "words of the Pope" here are controversial is that they are essentially incomprehensible. He never comes close to defining what he means be ideology and is essentially talking in riddles. Platitudes and sophistries are no substitute for Pastorly wisdom.

45 posted on 10/21/2013 10:43:54 AM PDT by circlecity
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 43 | View Replies]

To: Sherman Logan
“Ideology provides sham religion and sham philosophy, comforting in its way to those who have lost or never have known genuine religious faith, and to those not sufficiently intelligent to apprehend real philosophy.” – Russell Kirk

In the Errors of Ideology chapter in the Politics of Prudence, Kirk discussed “ideology” as the tendency to think that we can find a “simple saving truth” or formula that will then substitute for true principles and character.

In reading the link that someone thoughtfully supplied on the prior page to the original article which had some direct quotes of the Pope's homily and its context to the teachings found in the biblical quotes he cites, this appears somewhat the sense of what he was saying.

I know people of faith that in expressing or discussing their faith, seem to elevate a particular item to a “door shutting” condition (the Pope's analogy) and say that others are not “Christian”, “saved”, or any of a number of things if they don't believe in “apostolic succession”, “sola scriptura”, “sanctity of life”, or some other sole formulaic statement above, or instead of, all else.

Kenneth Minouge, Russell Kirk and many other philosophic writers have pointed out the limitations of the term and not wanted to see it substituted for broader terms of belief or principles.

46 posted on 10/21/2013 10:44:36 AM PDT by KC Burke (Officially since Memorial Day they are the Gimmie-crat Party.h)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: DJ MacWoW

>>I stand by my statement.

Obviously, you have a problem with churches in general if you think that the AoG requires you to raise your hands and shout. I used to be AoG and I’m not a clapper or hand raiser. Never have been.


47 posted on 10/21/2013 10:45:33 AM PDT by Bryanw92 (Sic semper tyrannis)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 44 | View Replies]

To: Resolute Conservative

This is what Pope Francis trying to correct, fear of the need to preach the Bible.


48 posted on 10/21/2013 10:48:34 AM PDT by Biggirl (“Go, do not be afraid, and serve”-Pope Francis)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: armydoc

I don’t think I like this new pope. At all.


49 posted on 10/21/2013 10:49:35 AM PDT by jocon307
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Bryanw92
I have been a member too. Ever try joining the choir etc? Oh! Been a Methodist, Presbyterian and a Baptist. You'd better fit their mold! My current church uses the Bible and only the Bible. No book of rules or order or anything man made.

I stand by my statement.

50 posted on 10/21/2013 10:50:45 AM PDT by DJ MacWoW (The Fed Gov is not one ring to rule the all)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 47 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-95 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson