Skip to comments.19th century occultic Mormon phenomena: Paranormal intermingling, demonic possession [Vanity]
Posted on 10/31/2013 9:56:18 AM PDT by Colofornian
Latayne Colvett Scott wrote about her experiences in being "proxy baptized" on behalf of the dead when she was a Mormon teen. And even though the process is quite mechanical, activity at Mormon temples can range greatly from the mechanical to the mystical, where, Scott wrote:
"This sort of mechanical processing of proxies goes on daily in the...temples around the world. Literally millions of dead persons have had proxy baptisms done for them in this assembly-line fashion...the righteous dead can intermingle with and teach those who have not received the Gospel in mortal life." (Latayne Colvett Scott, The Mormon Mirage: A Former Mormon Tells Why She Left the Church, Zondervan, 1979, pp. 194-195)
Hence, the Mormon has encouraged spirit visitations and spirit manifestations from the dead -- being on record with over 50 years of encouraging such "communications" from 19th Lds "apostles" like Parley P. Pratt and Charles W. Penrose.
Indeed, the history of the Mormon church within the 19th century is replete with occultic darkness [Documentation is sourced in chart at end of this article]:
"A Christian in looking at this doctrine that a person can accept Christ after death will want to know how Mormons explain the story of the rich man and Lazarus as found in Luke 16:19-26. The late President Joseph Fielding Smith, in his book, Way to Perfection, explained around the great truth of the Bible's teachings on repenting after death by saying that the 'great gulf' was only fixed before the death of Christ. After the Savior's resurrection, it no longer existed. Thus the righteous dead can intermingle with and teach those who have not received the Gospel in mortal life." (Source: Latayne Colvett Scott, The Mormon Mirage: A Former Mormon Tells Why She Left the Church, Zondervan, 1979, p. 195)
On the previous page, Scott wrote about her experiences in the Mormon temple as a Mormon teen:
"When my name was called, I went down into the water. The baptizing elder turned me around so that he could see a large screen, something like an electric football scoreboard, which he looked at over my shoulder. On top of the screen was my name, and below it a name I don't remember, but which I'll say was Elizabeth Anderson. 'Sister Celeste Latayne Colvett,' he said, looking at the screen, 'having been commissioned of Jesus Christ, I baptize you, for and in behalf of Elizabeth Anderson, who is dead, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.' Then he quickly dropped his right arm from the square and lowered me beneath the water. As I was regaining my footing (you learn after the third or fourth time to put one foot slightly behind the other to help you get back out of the water) he had already begun the same prayer, inserting this time the name of another dead woman which had flashed onto the screen behind me. Fifteen consecutive baptisms were performed with me as proxy in a matter of about three minutes. As I left the font, another proxy was preparing to be baptized. Then I was led into a 'confirmation room' where a man sat on a high stool with a chair near his knees. I sat on the chair, my back to him, and he and several other elders placed heir hands heavily upon my head while he pronounced this prayer: 'Sister Celeste Latayne Colvett, in the name of Jesus Christ, we lay our hands upon your head for and in behalf of Elizabeth Anderson, who is dead, and confirm you a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints..." (The Mormon Mirage, p. 194)
What is of interest in the "confirmation room" process Scott wrote about is that many Mormons have said that this proxy Baptism process offers a "choice" in which spirits on the other can reject becoming Mormons. Yet, an "automatic" confirmation process has been part and parcel of the proxy baptisms--indeed Lds leaders "confirm" dead souls as "members of the church."
A blogger who ministers to Mormons, Sharon Lindbloom, has noted: "Unlike Christianity, which recognizes a biblical prohibition against contact with the dead (e.g., Deuteronomy 18:9-14), Mormonism embraces it." Mormonism and Visitations from the Dead
The Bible forbids such communication with the dead -- otherwise known as necromancy.
Judge for yourself:
|DATE||Occultic Communication Encouraged||SOURCE|
|Open House start date April 3, 1993 San Diego, CA Temple||Visitations by the dead: Prior to the dedication of the San Diego temple, local Mormon families were given a packet entitled Family Temple Preparation Material. Included in this written material were about seven pages devoted to "true stories" of temple patrons who were visited by the dead||They See Dead People?|
|Aug. 12, 1949 -- republished by Mormon church in its Deseret Book Co. publishing, 1972||"I haven't actually seen any of them, but sometimes when I have finished an endowment or a sealing session in the Salt Lake Temple my bosom has burned, and I have known keep within me that those persons for whom I have officiated have accepted that work."||Bountiful Second Ward Chapel, "Disembodied Spirit Life" section of Life Eternal: A Series of Four Lectures Lynn A. McKinlay, Deseret Book Co. 1972, p. 206|
|1980||Lds "apostle" Boyd K. Packer: "On many occasions I have been present -- when sealings were to be performed, when temple ordinance work was being done, when funeral sermons were being preached --in circumstances when the veil was very thin. The gratitude of those who have gone beyond found its way through the misty barrier and was communicated as spiritual things are communicated."||The Holy Temple, Bookcraft, 1980, p. 267|
|2009||Even Mormon Sunday School material highlights spirit paranormal manifestations||Lds.org Sunday School Chapter Detail: Doctrine and Covenants and Church History Gospel Doctrine Teacher's Manual: See p. 2|
|Fall 2006 (and assumed other years' courses as well)||Religious Education class at BYU -- C261: Intro to Lds Family History (Genealogy): See 'Manifestations of the Spirits' section, pp. 57-58|
|1996||An official Mormon church publication -- even placed wholly as a digital publication for years -- highlighted such occultic communication allegedly occurring in 1884 and 1893 ... see chart below||Our Heritage: A Brief History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints 1996 pp. 99, 102|
|1983||An official Mormon church priesthood manual was encouraging such paranormal communication in citing an 1884 manifestation||Sermons and Missionary Services of Melvin Joseph Ballard, Deseret Book Co. p. 249, as cited in Come Follow Me, Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, p. 162, 1983|
|YEAR||JOSEPH SMITH or LDS Leader 'Revelation' or Mingling with the Dead Episode||SOURCE|
|1831||The records of early Mormonism are replete with accounts of activity from the spirit world. According to John Whitmer, who was the official Church Historian in Joseph Smith's time, some converts to the new religion would 'act like an Indian in the act of scalping,' or would 'slide or scoot on the floor with the rapidity of a serpent....' During the ordination ceremony of Harvey Whitlock as a high priest in 1831, he was seen to have 'turned as black as Lyman was white,' his fingers 'were set like claws,' and, unable to speak, he went about the room with eyes 'as the shape of oval Os....' On another occasion, one man, who weighed over 200 pounds, was thrown through the air by an unseen force, and another 'began screaming like a panther....'||46. John Whitmer, John Whitmer's History (Salt Lake City, Utah: Modern Microfilm Company, n.d.), Chapter Six and 47. Max H. Parkin, Conflict at Kirtland: A Study of the Nature and Causes of External and Internal Conflict of the Mormons in Ohio Between 1830 and 1838 (Salt Lake City: Max Parkin, 1966), pages 79-80 both as cited in GOD-MEN AND SPIRITUAL VEGETABLES:The Occult Worldview of Mormonism|
|1831 [Source is much later from Whitmer is describing 1831 manifestations]||John Whitmer wrote: 'Some had visions and could not tell what they saw, some would fancy to themselves that they had the sword of Laban, and would wield it as expert as a light dragoon; some would act like an Indian in the act of scalping; some would slide or scoot on the floor with the rapidity of a serpent, which they termed sailing in the boat to the Lamanites, preaching the gospel. And many other vain and foolish maneuvers that are unseeming and unprofitable to mention. Thus the devil blinded the eyes of some good and honest disciples. I write these things to show how ignorant and undiscerning children are, and how easy mankind is led astray, notwithstanding the things of God that are written concerning his kingdom.'||Church History, Journal of History, Jan. 1908, p. 55 as quoted by a href=http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/3085089/posts>D&C Student Manual|
|June 3, 1831||The Mormon priesthood being conferred corresponds EXACTLY with the manifest revelation of the man of sin: ...the Elders from the various parts of the country where they were laboring, came in; and the conference before appointed, convened in Kirtland; the Lord displayed His power to the most perfect satisfaction of the Saints. The man of sin was revealed, and the authority of the Melchizedek Priesthood was manifested and conferred for the first time upon several of the elders.||History of the Church, vol. 1, p. 175-176|
|Aug. 12, 1831||Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, on the bank of the Missouri River, McIlwaines Bend, August 12, 1831. On their return trip to Kirtland, the Prophet and ten elders had traveled down the Missouri River in canoes. On the third day of the journey, many dangers were experienced. Elder William W. Phelps, in a daylight vision, saw the destroyer riding in power upon the face of the waters.||Lead-in intro to Lds 'scripture' D&C 61|
|March 27, 1836 and continuing into next year||Joseph Smith observed: Soon after the Gospel was established in Kirtland, and during the absence of the authorities of the Church, many false spirits were introduced, many strange visions were seen, and wild, enthusiastic notions were entertained: men ran out of doors under the influence of this spirit, and some of them got upon the stumps of trees and shouted, and all kinds of extravagances were entered into by them; one man pursued a ball that he said he saw flying in the air, until he came to a precipice, when he jumped into the top of a tree, which saved his life; and many ridiculous things were entered into, calculated to bring disgrace upon the Church of God..."||Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons 1 April 1842, p. 747, cited at D&C Student Manual|
|July 30, 1837||Eventual first president Heber C. Kimball, who would become second counselor to Brigham Young, demon possessed and other Lds missionaries attacked by demons in Preston, UK||Discovering LDS Preston Satanic attack|
|Aug. 10, 1840||Joseph Smith uses macabre setting a funeral sermon to first introduce the doctrine of necro-baptism||I first mentioned the doctrine in public when preaching the funeral sermon of Brother Seymour...||BYU Family History Lab|
|January 1841-->Summer 1843||Joseph Smith becomes obsessed with the dead: "The Prophet Joseph Smith...had received the revelations (sections 124, 127, 128, and 132) which pertain directly to this work. [Re: the dead] And during the last part of his life he said, 'This subject was upon my mind more than any other.'"||Lds apostle Boyd K. Packer, The Holy Temple, p. 191 1980 Bookcraft|
|April 1842||...who can drag into daylight and develop the hidden mysteries of the false spirits that so frequently are made manifest among the Latter-day Saints?||Joseph Smith, The Prophet's Editorial in the Times and Seaons, as found in History of the Church, Vol. 4, p. 573|
|April 7, 1844||It's less than three months before Joseph Smith's death. And, like he did with a Baptism of the Dead doctrinal unveiling, Smith chooses yet another funeral sermon to unveil one of the most controversial Mormon doctrines: That men can become gods (and that God was once a man).||The King Follett [funeral] sermon|
|April 6, 1853||How do the Saints expect the necessary information by which to complete the ministrations for the salvation and exaltation of their friends who have died? By one holding the keys of the oracles of God, AS A MEDIUM THROUGH WHICH THE LIVING CAN HEAR FROM THE DEAD. Shall we, then, deny the principle, the philosophy, the fact of communication between worlds? No! verily no! The spiritual philosophy of the present age was introduced to the modern world by Joseph Smith. The people of the United States abandoned him to martyrdom...simply because a medium of communication with the invisible world had been found, whereby the living could hear from the dead. ...an obscure boy and his few associates, in the western wilds of New York, commenced to hold CONVERSE WITH THE DEAD...ONE OF THE LEADING OR FUNDAMENTAL TRUTHS OF "MORMON" PHILOSOPHY, viz. - "That the living may hear from the dead."... ...we...call attention to the means of discriminating or judging between the lawful and the unlawful mediums or channels of communication...the holy Prophet...remind us that a people should seek unto their God for the living to hear from the dead! ...the Lord...has committed to this Priesthood the keys of holy and divine revelation, and of CORRESPONDENCE, OR COMMUICATION BETWEEN angels, SPIRITS, AND MEN... ...all the most holy CONVERSATIONS AND CORRESPONDENCE WITH God, angels, and SPIRITS, shall be had only in the sanctuary of His holy Temple... Ye are assembled...and have laid these Corner Stones, for the express purpose that the living might hear from the dead, and that we may prepare a holy sanctuary, where "the people may seek unto their God, for the living to hear from the dead"...||Journal of Discourses, Vol. 2, pp. 44-46|
|1868||Re: former early cohort of Joseph Smith, Sidney Rigdon (who left Smith's group): Sidney Rigdon was Prophet, Seer and Revelator for a small group of Mormons in New York. In his capacity as prophet, Rigdon regularly received revelations, often directed at specific followers. His revelations include channeling of the dead. He recorded these revelations and sent them to his follower Stephen Post. The resulting compilation of revelations (in Rigdons handwriting) are available today in the Stephen Post Collection at the University of Utah, where they are stored as Copying Book A & Book of the Revelations of Jesus Christ to the Children of Zion Through Sidney Rigdon Prophet & Seer & Revelator. Essentially this scripture can be viewed as The Doctrine and Covenants Part II.||Sidney Rigdon: Channeling The Dead|
|Early 1877||In the last two weeks before he left the St. George, Utah temple, we have at least four accounts that claim that the spirits of the signers of the Declaration of Independence -- with George Washington -- having appeared to Woodruff. Is the temple haunted? Were these indeed ghosts of the signers? Could they have been demons in disguise as ghosts?||Lds Temple Haunted? Did Declaration of Independence signers appear as ghosts to leader? [Vanity]|
|Oct. 10, 1880||Fourth Lds "prophet" Wilford Woodruff reveals that during the late 1840s or sometime during the 1850s he: "I have had many interviews with Brother Joseph until the last 15 or 20 years of my life; I have not seen him for that length of time." One of the top three-ranked Mormon leaders, Lds "apostle"/First President Heber C. Kimball also claimed: "Joseph Smith continued visiting myself and others up to a certain time, and then it stopped."||Journal of Discourses 21, pp. 317-318; source for Kimball's quote: Deseret Weekly News, 53:112, Temples of the Most High, 1896, p. 345|
|May, 1884||The Haunting of Bishop Ballard's Neighborhood by Elderly Newspaper Delivery Boys Ghostly newspaper delivery "boys": "In May 1884, Bishop Henry Ballard of the Logan Second Ward was signing temple recommends at his home. Henry's nine-year-old daughter, who was talking with friends on the sidewalk near her home, saw two elderly men approaching. They called to her, handed her a newspaper, and told her to take it to her father. The girl did as she was asked. Bishop Ballard saw that the paper, the Newbury Weekly News, published in England, contained the names of more than 60 of his and his father's acquaintances, along with genealogical information. This newspaper, dated 15 May 1884, had been given to him only three days after it was printed. In a time long before air transportation, when mail took several weeks to get from England to western America, this was a miracle. The next day, Bishop Ballard took the newspaper to the temple and told the story of its arrival to Marriner W. Merrill, the temple president. President Merrill declared, 'Brother Ballard, someone on the other side is anxious for their work to be done and they knew that you would do it if this paper got into your hands.'" (Our Heritage: A Brief History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1996, p. 99) Ballard was then quoted by Bryant S. Hinckley in Sermons and Missionary Services of Melvin Joseph Ballard, Deseret Book Co, p. 249, as saying: "Elder Melvin J. Ballard testified that 'the spirit and influence of your dead will guide those who are interested in finding those records." (As cited in Come Follow Me, Melchizedek Priesthood Personal study guide, 1983)||Our Heritage: A Brief History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints 1996 p. 99; Sermons and Missionary Services of Melvin Joseph Ballard, Deseret Book Co. p. 249, as cited in Come Follow Me, Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, p. 162, 1983|
|Sept. 16, 1887||Fourth Mormon Prophet Wilford Woodruff tells followers, I feel to say little else to the Latter-day Saints wherever and whenever I have the opportunity of speaking to them, than to call upon them to build these Temples now under way, to hurry them up to completion. The dead will be after you, they will seek after you as they have after us in St. George. They called upon us, knowing that we held the keys and power to redeem them. I will here say, before closing, that two weeks before I left St. George, the spirits of the dead gathered around me, wanting to know why we did not redeem them.||Journal of Discourses 19:229|
|1888||Lds apostle Charles W. Penrose: "Knowledge that is needful concerning the spiritual sphere will come through an appointed channel and in the appointed place. The temple where the ordinances can be administered for the dead, is the place to hear from the dead. The priesthood in the flesh, when it is necessary, will receive communications from the Priesthood behind the vail." Later (1906) quote from Penrose: "...the Priesthood behind the veil will reveal to the Priesthood in the flesh in the holy Temples of God where these conversations will take place...work...not only going on here in the flesh, but it is going on in the world behind the veil among the spirits that have departed."||Quote 1: Lds "apostle" Charles W. Penrose, Mormon Doctrine, 1888, published through the Juvenile Instructor's office, SLC, pp. 40-41; Quote 2: Conference Reports, April 1906, pp. 86-87 See: We Believe: Doctrines and Principles of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints by Rulon T. Burton p D-129: 'Work for the Dead'; cf. The Facts on the Mormon Church by John Ankerberg, John Weldon, & Dillon Burroughs 1991/2009 Harvest House Publishers, p. 70|
|April 1, 1893||From a Mormon church LDS Sunday School Lesson: Suggestions for Lesson Development Attention Activity: As appropriate, share the following story or use an activity of your own to begin the lesson. Frederick William Hurst was working as a gold miner in Australia when he first heard Latter-day Saint missionaries preach the restored gospel. He and his brother Charles were baptized in January 1854. He LDS.org - Sunday School Chapter Detail - The Hearts of the Children Shall Turn to Thei... Page 1 of 6 http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=ce109207f7c2011... 12/4/2009 tried to help his other family members become converted, but they rejected him and the truths he taught. Fred settled in Salt Lake City four years after joining the Church, and he served faithfully as a missionary in several different countries. He also worked as a painter in the Salt Lake Temple. In one of his final journal entries, he wrote: Along about the 1st of March, 1893, I found myself alone in the dining room, all had gone to bed. I was sitting at the table when to my great surprize my elder brother Alfred walked in and sat down opposite me at the table and smiled. I said to him (he looked so natural): When did you arrive in Utah? He said: I have just come from the Spirit World, this is not my body that you see, it is lying in the tomb I look to you to do the work for me in the temple. You are watched closely.||Diary of Frederick William Hurst, comp. Samuel H. and Ida Hurst , 204 as part of.Lds Sunday School lesson from "Doctrine and Covenants and Church History," "The Hearts of the Children Shall Turn to Their Fathers," pp. 1-2|
|April-->May, 1893||The Haunting of the Salt Lake City Temple opening: An official Mormon church publication claims that when the LDS opened their temple in the Spring of 1893, "Some Latter-day Saints saw...past Presidents of the Church and other deceased Church leaders."||Our Heritage: A Brief History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints 1996 p. 102, referencing Richard Neitzel Holzapfel, Every Stone a Sermon, 1992, pp. 71, 75, 80.|
|Jan. 1, 15, 1895||Think of the affinity between the dead and us. They are looking to us for deliverance. Shall we not help them?||Zina D.H. Young, Woman's Exponent, Jan 1, 15, 1895, p. 226 Note: Young was a polygamous wife of BOTH Joseph Smith & by|
"This sort of mechanical processing of proxies goes on daily in the...temples around the world. Literally millions of dead persons have had proxy baptisms done for them in this assembly-line fashion...the righteous dead can intermingle with and teach those who have not received the Gospel in mortal life."
Well, given what mormonism is, this does not surprise me.
ANOTHER 15 MINUTES OF HATE FILLED RANTS BY A CRAZY NUT WHO KNOWS NOTHING ABOUT THIS TOPIC. WHY ARE YOU SO EVIL?
ANOTHER 15 MINUTES OF HATE FILLED RANTS BY A CRAZY NUT WHO KNOWS NOTHING ABOUT THIS TOPIC. WHY ARE YOU SO EVIL?
Great post Colofornian!
October, 1918: The Haunting of Lds 'prophet' Joseph F. Smith
Joseph Smith has dozens of accounts of the dead appearing to him. The Lds church thought so much of this that they put most of them in a 2007 book on the series of Lds "Presidents" ("Prophets").
A follow-up Lds "prophet" -- Joseph F. Smith -- claimed 91 years ago this month to see the hosts of the dead, both small and great...an innumerable company of the spirits of the just (D&C 138:11-12) -- and these spirits were just waiting for Mormon missionaries to come their way to be redeemed -- as JF Smith said that the Mormon jesus had prepared "the faithful spirits of the prophets who had testified of him in the flesh; That they might carry the message of redemption unto all the dead, unto whom he could not go personally, because of their rebellion and transgression, that they through the ministration of his servants might also hear his words. (D&C 138:37-38) Lds thought so much of more dead appearing to their "prophet" in 1918 that they added it to their "Scriptures"...(I think the occult world likes October for some reason)
Late 1970s or 1980-1981: The Evil Spirit Haunting of the Lds Brazilian Mission
"A few years ago while touring the missions of South America, I heard President William Grant Gangerter of the Brazilian Mission make some interesting comments. He reported that there had been a wave of incidents in which evil spirits were afflicting the missionaries and the Saints. At every conference the missionaries were relating experiences they were having with evil spirits. The intensity of their influence was frightening."
Come Unto Christ, Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, for 1984, 1988 published 1983, 1986 p. 109
And, just posted this thread: The Haunting of a Mormon Missionary in Ecuador [The OTHER World Series]
Hmmmmm, citing lds sources, lds journals, etc. Are you denying the content of those lds sources? If there is evil, then those sources contain that evil. You bleat would be more valid if you can provide documentation that those many, many sources are not correct rather than stomping your foot and yelling.
Did it really take you 15 minutes to read that short article?
Please provide any proof that Colofornian “ knows nothing about this topic”.
What do you know that he does not??
Capitalized rants, insults and name calling don’t make a convincing argument, do they? That is the only recourse for people without facts to make their case. Democrats use the same technique for the same reasons.
ANOTHER 15 MINUTES OF HATE FILLED RANTS BY A CRAZY NUT WHO KNOWS NOTHING ABOUT THIS TOPIC. WHY ARE YOU SO EVIL?
Yeah Colofornian ... how evil, insane and hateful you are to suggest there is any connection between Mormonism and the occult! It is obvious that you know nothing about the topic.
P.S. Please ignore the above picture of a whatcha-ma-call-it. It is an innocent and ancient symbol of Christianity that probably has nothing whatsoever to do with Mormonism
Bill; why are YOU yelling?
It's usually 3 minutes; but today (Halloween) you get more for your money...
It's then up to YOU to educate the folks who are reading this thread.
I'll bet you 'believe' quite strongly that MORMONism is true.
at LEAST it’s not an inverted star!
at LEAST its not an inverted star!
You're right ... there's none of them baphomets and pentagrams to be found anywhere near a sacred Mormon temple ... no siree!
"macabre setting", really? Necro-baptism? No where in the LDS scripture does the word "necro" appear anywhere.
So you're suddenly hypersensitive about a word that just means "the dead?" What? Lds never use the word, "dead?"
But, hey, thanks for reminding me that I actually did a "break-out" broader on this subject two years ago: Smith used Lds funerals to introduce necro-baptism, 'becoming gods' [The OTHER World Series: Vanity]
Me:: Joseph Smith becomes obsessed with the dead:
Your response: Joseph pondering on dead, in your words makes him "obsessed with the dead".
Well, it helps if you don't wrest my commentary away from the content: Lds "apostle" Boyd Packer, 1980 book, The Holy Temple:
"The Prophet Joseph Smith...had received the revelations (sections 124, 127, 128, and 132) which pertain directly to this work. [Re: the dead] And during the last part of his life he said, 'This subject was upon my mind more than any other.'"
So the supreme attention-getter of ANY subject of Joseph's last 2 or 3 years becomes in your mind mere "ponderin'"...
And so the fact that he was more fixated upon the dead (ya know, those 'necro-ized' ones) than ANYBODY alive makes it sound like the image of Joseph you would like to portray...
...was simply a flesh-and-blood Auguste Rodin statue version (we've seen "The Thinker" statue...hand on chin)...
...philosophically ponderin' away...
...not realizing that what he was overly fascinated with happened to be more "stiff" than the marble Rodin's statue was made out of!
All: To understand the backdrop of Storm's comments here, ya need to understand one simple distinctive about Mormon doctrine: Their teaching that their heavenly father is but a "resurrected man."
I have in my hands a book written by a Mormon General Authority -- Milton R. Hunter -- published 1951/1972 under the title: Pearl of Great Price Commentary. The first words right out of Hunter's preface is the sanctioning for such a book by the Lds Church hierarchy: "For many years the General Authorities of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and probably the majority of its members, have felt a definite need for a Pearl of Great Price commentary." (p. v)
On page 54 of Hunter's book, he describes the Mormon "Godhead" as follows: "...the Godhead is componed of three separate and distinct persons, TWO of which have passed through mortality and are now RESURRECTED..."
So, per the Mormon god-view, since Heavenly Father is a resurrected man, should he appear to anybody on earth, why he's just a "ghost" or "spirit" appearing...or, somebody (like me, says SP) could make it out to be that way.
But sorry, SP. Heavenly Father was NEVER a man. He never sinned. And therefore, He didn't have to die. And, no, unlike His Son, He wasn't resurrected. Therefore, your reference here to Job, etc. is quite spurious.
[See my last post...last part of my answer applies there as well]
6. Jesus Himself met evil spirits face to face many times and so did the original Apostles. Were they necromancers and occultists too?
#1...Jesus NEVER had to consult with anybody other than His Father/Holy Spirit...So no "necromancy" there...
#2...You may have it in your peculiar worldview that demonic-type 'angels' living forever with the Mormon god -- as Joseph Smith believed...were resurrected men..
...see The Doctrine and Covenants [132:17: Non-abiding 'angels' remain with Mormon god, said Smith]; ...
...but the Biblical worldview is that demonic spirits were never men & hence never died as men.
You're on extremely dangerous spiritual ground here, Storm.
Numbers 11, v. 26 specifically says it was "THE" Spirit (not just "a" spirit).
In the chapter before Jesus talks about those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit (Luke 12:10), he talks about casting out demons "by the finger of God" (Luke 11:20), which MANY Bible commentators reference that "finger" as the Holy Spirit Himself: 20 But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you." (Jesus, Luke 11:20)
If we go to Mark 3, where Jesus is referenced also talking about blaspheming the Holy Spirit (3:28-29), the context also shows a heavy focus on casting out demons in that chapter ... see Mark 3:11, 22-23 -- even to the point where Jesus defends the Holy Spirit by asking a rhetorical question in v. 23: "How can Satan cast out Satan?"
IoW, the context is all clear: Jesus was casting out demons. The Pharisees were accusing Him of casting out spirits by Satan's power. Jesus, then in Mark 3:28 (also Luke 12) essentially says,
"Hey, if you say anything against Me -- you can be forgiven"...
..."but if you're going to accuse or insinuate" (even to make some attempted apologetic point) "that the Holy Spirit was operating as Satan or satanic hosts...
...duck! Look out! Forgiveness will NEVER be yours!"
I'm not saying you believe this; but you are so wrecklessly tossing around the Holy Spirit's Name in conjunction with demonic activity, that a warning here is quite proper: It was so serious of a sin that Jesus told them flat-out "no forgiveness forthcoming" for even suggesting such ties/links.
I warn you: In God's Name, stop being so cavalier with your weak apologetics' efforts that you wind up so readily bandying out the Name of the Holy Spirit!
#3 example of Abraham...also covered in post #20.
to which you replied;
Please allow me to disabuse you of that notion...for you reach for portion of culturally connotative usage (and misuage), rather than the root.
combining form prefix: necro-
Your statement continued;
which as I have shown above isn't exactly true, but as I also spoke toward, is the culturally derived connotative association, although one perhaps a bit misused by fantasy-genre "hack" paper-back writers, at least a decade or so before Harry Potter came toddling along.
Necro- as in Necromancer http://www.thefreedictionary.com/necromancer
As you said;
but the LDS does "baptize" the dead, by proxy. Hence, necro-baptism [by proxy].
And you also said;
which was not done that I could see (or you may point out which reply# that statement was made, in regards to yourself specifically?), rendering the following;
apparently broken, by your own self.
What was that again, you were saying about soup?
If you like, we could speak about Joseph Smith's "obsessions" and how he could fit the bill for heel, cad, fraud, huckster, swindler, etc? I can bring dictionary of those terms, upon request. Preferably, after we find some agreement upon earned and deserved (after one has done all that they honestly can do?) soup rations. bwahahhaa
Sammy Hagar - Little White Lie (Music Video) WIDESCREEN HQ [this song going out to J.Smith, who's "soup" could never now be cold, since it's most likely ON FIRE]
Words such as "wrong" "false" "error" do not attribute motive.
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
I'm glad you found the link helpful.
Interestingly enough, in regards to this particular root "necro" and variants, in reading the other notes on that page, I thought I was seeing a Indo-Persian-European sort of spread of usage, which made me wonder as to Egyptian, also.
Woops, I said that magic word. Now the can is opened, and I hope reformed Egyptian worms don't come crawling out.
Have you ever tried to read BYU scholarship which pretends itself to in some way establish that the funeral scrolls bought by J.Smith, can translate into what J.S. claimed, that he alone at the time could understand? (the book of Abraham is tied to an Egyptian funeral scroll)
People around here may think I jibber-jabber without getting to the point. Those guys can go on for days without getting anywhere. Or present stuff by way of what seems to me to be sleight-of-hand that fools chiefly themselves. MEGO to the max.
It's rather hilarious that just a few years after Smith bought and allegedly "translated" that scroll, a decade or so, maybe two, the Rosetta Stone was decoded enough for those who work in those language fields, to begin unraveling a few remaining mysteries.
Since there is enough scholarship concerning those sort of scrolls (there are many of them, from over a span of centuries), and the meanings have been fairly well determined (the scrolls repeat the same themes --- with the rise and fall of Egyptian kings documented amongst the various collections of scrolls by reference, and what god or goddess they were associated with have their fortunes as it were, also rise and fall (or change), then the Smith "translation" should be the coffin nail, if there were not enough already...for the scrolls are many (and more repetitive than not, which is the most telling aspect) and are many "nails" as it were.
One dead and gone mistaken "god" vision-religion, coming out of the tombs like a mummy's curse breathing [from the link which you provided];
upon Joey's accumulation of fraud.
It's like -- majic, the kind the Pharaoh's magicians knew the tricks of. The ones which brought death.
Things are pretty grim when even the mummies cackle at ya'.
Mistaken you: And here's another ugly lie. Necro is known through out literature as "evil" or "evil sorcerer". It's short for "Necromancer" or "Necromancy". It's a dark art. Equating myself and other Latter-day Saints with anything "necro" is guilt by association. It's a foul and low thing to do Colofornian.
Blue Dragon had it on the $ in post #26...take a good look at that...if you don't believe here...here's some links on the word Necrology:
* 1. A list of people who have died, especially in the recent past or during a specific period.
"2013 Necrology. What is a necrology? A necrology is a listing of people who have died during a specific time period. Find A Grave necrologies let you browse the names and faces of the 75 most famous people who have died during a selected year, all the way back to 1900. They are listed in order of their Find A Grave 'fame ranking', as voted by Find A Grave contributors. To view a necrology, simply select a year from the pop up list below."
Source: Necrology per Find a Grave.com
Hmmm...Here Mormons do their own massive "gravedigging" -- well, by that I mean "digging into grave" history...
...in order to glean, names, birthdates, deathdates, etc. to necro-baptize them amidst their gathering of necrology research...
...And here, like this necrological link to "famous people," you'll find in research Mormon baptisms of the dead that they seem to love to feast upon "famous people" in the proxy process, even though their relatives are not likely to be Mormon...
>..and yet you want me to ignore all of that necrological stuff they engage in. Interesting.
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
Delphi dear, is that you? You’re trying to impugn the origins of Christianity, so I ‘feel’ it just might be you, slithering back for more of your father’s work.
Just so I understand how the rules are applied, could you tell me the subject of post #36?
It was the semantics which were being objected to by yourself in the first place, and still are. So yes, Really, for word usage was and still is(?) the issue at hand. I can't see how that aspect can be logically denied.
Well now we are getting somewhere. It wasn't the word usage itself which was entirely inaccurate, but "guilt by association" aspect which was troubling?
What is the more logically insulting is to not acknowledge that your own initial definition was incorrect, for that definition relied not upon root and actual meanings, as I plainly enough demonstrated, and as additional links have been kindly provided by others, quite neutrally by one also, as in http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3085963/posts?page=27#27.
Which leaves reactionary argument against the use of the phrase necro-baptism still inaccurate enough, for in modern English usage "necro" as prefix, most assuredly refers to "the dead" (which is what you were arguing against) any way one chooses to
slice baptize it.
I did offer for usage; necro-baptism, by proxy, adding that last portion for greater precision. Why not take me up on that offer? What objection could still remain if it were to be spoken of in that manner?
As I have told a few others --- English is my native tongue. I shall not submit to demand concerning how I speak it, in regards to those whom seek to control my own free expression, although I am open to making some reasonable modification if case can be made that to do so is necessary towards greater accuracy. But if it's just part of some politics of the aggrieved, sans enough rationality to force change for reason of accuracy & truth, then I gotta' tell ya', forget it, I will not submit to whiny complaints, or someone's hurt feelings at expense of truth & clarity in course of free expression. In other words --- I shall not agree to allowing you (or most anyone other than God Himself) to unilaterally control the narrative. Got that? Good. Let's move on...
So far -- you have yet to make a convincing case that I should make any changes, other than having decided on my own to extend grace to add "by proxy" towards alleviating concern that the LDS practice routinely involves actual dead-tissue, non-living corpses be physically present and directly submerged in LDS water pools...
To get to the crux of the matter;
Does the LDS "baptize" persons now dead "by proxy", or not? That equals baptizing the dead, as regarding dead bodies themselves, yet in absentia, not being done just "verbally", but by necessity of the doctrinal practice itself, needing "a body" to submerse, would it not? Which in LDS theology and practice (though I will not admit to in efficaciousness, before God) makes the proxy, representative of the necro- as matter of fact.
This can be seen as part of the overall [so-called] LDS theology of themselves, that it is that particular "community" alone, in the persons of their "bishops" and so called "prophets" claiming for themselves being the Only True Church, with all others outside of their realm alleged to be entirely "apostate". Hence [I assume] the perceived need from within those bounds, beginning with J.Smith himself, of there being need for this doctrine of baptism of the dead by proxy --- since to this day it is alleged that it is they alone (Temple Mormons) who have the "authority" to rightfully and properly baptize. But in reaching beyond the living in this over-reach, they do in effect, reach into the realm of the dead. Necro, necro...
|It is one thing to pray concerning the dead, praying for those whom have passed on, first in thanksgiving of those persons having been created to have been among the living, and in loving remembrance of them; possibly praying then also in supplication to the Lord for those persons very souls, that those be with Him always, resurrected by His power to be with Him forever, entering into His realm by the power of His own blood sacrifice|
--- it is yet another thing to hold the view that this not be in no way possible for those not "Mormon" (and that the heavenly realm is, for lack of better term, "Mormonic", with persons there living much as persons do here on earth, procreating physically and naturally, per LDS theology/eschatology -- which sort of idea or thing is spoken explicitly against in the NT (At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven) with LDS officially holding doctrine that unless by the [alleged] power and "authority" of Mormons; persons not only living, but now "dead" too, be baptized by LDS authorities, in LDS Temples, either while alive, or when having already passed from life in this realm, unto [physical] death, they can in no wise enter into the kingdom (of God). What a tacked-on, big-time change in the theology/eschatology of Christ Himself LDS teachings are, for it is most certainly NOT any Mormon who has ever themselves baptized anyone with the Holy Ghost, for that portion is of the Lord's, alone. He holds Himself at limitation of the beck and call of no man, even as He can and does, in love and not inconsiderable humility, even towards us whom He has created, condescend to those of low estate...
There is nothing in the NT which authorizes the Mormon practice of baptizing the dead by proxy (much less that only Mormon baptisms be valid or recognized by Him) but the
Spot on, BD.
[To SP]As I have told a few others --- English is my native tongue. I shall not submit to demand concerning how I speak it, in regards to those whom seek to control my own free expression, although I am open to making some reasonable modification if case can be made that to do so is necessary towards greater accuracy. But if it's just part of some politics of the aggrieved, sans enough rationality to force change for reason of accuracy & truth, then I gotta' tell ya', forget it, I will not submit to whiny complaints, or someone's hurt feelings at expense of truth & clarity in course of free expression.
Yup, BD. Mormon political correctness running amok. Yup. Politics of the aggrieved; victim-rights mentality where minorities of any persuasion (in this case, a religious minority attempting to control free expression. (We first got used to it here @ FR; and then, when most of the FR Mormons were zotted for legit reasons -- and a few went on "vacation" -- we just haven't been subjected to it by FR Mormons of late)
Yup. Home run. Grand slam.
(Who knows, BD? For all we know, StormPrepper may yet next complain about your use of the word "crux" -- which, etymologically, comes from crucifix. Mormons, ya know, tend to prefer the Garden of Gethsemane to Calvary as their description of Christ's atoning process...so perhaps, BD, you should have used some garden term instead so as to not offend SP...like to get to the "root" of the matter)
SP, ALL: StormPrepper seems to be trying to kill two-birds-with-one-theme on his posts in this particular thread.
What do I mean?
His focus seems to seek accomplishment of two things:
(a) By attempting to make this thread about my choice of words, he seeks to reduce the thread focus to me alone...a tactic used commonly by a Mormon apologist wannabe, a Mr. G. West on his site.
For example, West -- who went south from his baptist roots long ago -- will comment upon a thread I post, then quote the thread article itself as if I wrote the article or came up with that very slant as introduced by either a blogger, a journalist, a Mormon leader, or whoever wrote that particular thread! In this way, the Mormon apologist doesn't have to face the very content of the argument itself. They get to simply focus on me! So, ALL, when you see this tactic being exercised, note that the very content of the thread itself is an "expose'" that Mormon apologists just don't want to touch!
And then (b) -- the second "bird": By placing the alleged "offense" upon me for using a word that means "dead," he seeks to actually reverse the offense itself?
What do I mean? Well, this became quite plain when I noticed this comment by poster "Flat Lander" published in a Mormonism Recovery Board Feb. 22, 2012:
When we see headlines like the above truly offensive ones, anything that a Mormon apologist can do to turn the "offense" away from the offensive practice itself -- in this case -- Necro-baptism by proxy...could wind up a minor digital victory:
* Anne Frank has been posthumously baptized (Mormon) [thread posted by ColorCountry]
* Anne Frank, a Mormon?
* Mormons apologize for posthumous baptism of parents of Jewish rights advocate Wiesenthal
* Mormons' macabre Jewish baptisms won't benefit Mitt
[Note: StormPrepper -- to be consistent -- be sure you write an e-mail of objection to the South Florida Sun-Sentinel to alleged "guilt by association" headline linking "macabre" Mormons baptizing the Jewish dead!]
A little over three weeks ago, I mentioned the following parallel situation on an FR thread...it fits StormPrepper's responses, as well:
Blacks Ridiculed again by the Mormon Church.
I can recall when people have intentionally shown pictures of aborted babies to high schoolers & junior highers adjacent to campuses in states where those student-teens can get an abortion minus parental consent or even parental knowledge.
Now, you would think people who haven't seen pictures of aborted babies would get riled & upset & provoked by the very people who dismembered these precious babies in said pix. You know.
The abortion industry.
The insurance company who pays for some of these abortions.
ObamaCare that wants to expand such payments.
The boyfriend, partner, incest perp, teacher, or parent who drove the mom to the abortuary.
The black-robed rogues who legalized abortion-on-demand.
But, no. These citizens, some parents of these kids, get riled & upset & provoked at the people who show the pictures! Forget about the murderers & those who engaged in accessory-before-the-fact; just go after those who refuse to censor the truth! Those bold enough to unveil the "behind-the-scene" realities!
Some of these citizens simply prefer to EITHER be in denial; or to continue their enabling of the abortion culture.
So, do we have parallels to this on some FR threads? Do we see at times some non-Mormons & Mormons alike reacting in similar ways to aborted-babies' pix as they are confronted with the realities of Mormonism?
Yup. Hence, they go after the "picture" bearer; they assume the accusatory route & make the thread about the poster...
[End of Oct. 10, 2013 FR post]
In this same way, baptizing the dead -- and involving teens in the process -- claiming that Holocaust victims, etc. have become Mormons...is offensive. Hence, what we see StormPrepper attempting to do is re-route the offense of the practice itself! Instead, just shoot the messenger!
[Of course, next he might object to use of the phrase "shoot the messenger" as advocating violence and making Mormons "guilty by association" with 'shooters'"! This is becoming more hilarious by the post!]
The poster evidently wrongfully believes you are a retread of DelphiUser.
Yep ... not the first time I’ll be wrong and not the last, either.
And, no, I have not looked at explanations for Smith's translation of the Egyptian scroll though I am fairly certain he would not have made the translation he did were he aware of what would be happening in the future, i.e. the Rosetta Stone.
Also, I suspect the belief system survives despite such things mostly because the beliefs are widely integrated with a culture. Rejecting the beliefs might also require rejecting the culture.
It would be like having to give up being a Texan in order to walk away from Koresh's Branch Davidians. But Koresh's beliefs were not integrated into a culture beyond his own compound in Waco. Praise God!
Thank you so much for sharing your insights, dear BlueDragon!
Now why is this quote relevant to our discussion?
Because StormPrepper, the Mormon, is attempting to make a big deal about attempted LDS interactions with dead bodies...
Whereas most people tend to think of a "spirit body" as distinct from a "physical flesh-and-bones body", the Mormon church itself is unique in that Joseph Smith taught that the "spirit body" is the SAME PHYSICAL bodily form as "mortals."
Hence, these dead people, per Mormonism, already have PHYSICAL bodily forms...only these corpses have been perfected.
Christianity holds to an eventual similar teaching -- but futurizes perfected physical bodies until the final resurrection.
"Necro" simply both historically -- and currently -- has ONLY had two meanings: "Dead" and "corpse"...and, given that "corpse" comes from its root "corpus" (which just means "body")...
...and the Mormon church teaches that dead spirits have such corpuses (physical bodies)...
...this shows exactly how spurious this Mormon apologist wannabe argues.
Thank you for sharing those insights, dear Colofornian!
You showed up in this thread; shouted something; and then disappeared.
Are you OK?
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