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Utah Scout leaders face backlash after incident in Goblin Valley State Park (Updated)
BYU Universe ^ | Oct. 29, 2013 | Dylan Ellsworth

Posted on 11/07/2013 4:33:58 AM PST by Colofornian

Two Utah Boy Scout leaders are facing significant backlash after posting a video online of the men tipping over a nearly 200-million-year-old rock formation in Goblin Valley State Park.

Glenn Taylor and David Hall, from Highland, Utah, have now been removed from the Boy Scouts of America. An investigation is underway to determine whether the men will face felony charges.

SNIP

...leadership of the Utah National Parks Council, the Boy Scouts’ local chapter, consulted with leadership of the chartering organization for the men’s unit — The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints — including ward and stake leaders, according to council spokesperson John Gailey.

...International fury quickly erupted following the video’s posting.

“We’ve had hundreds of death threats,” Hall said...

The incident received renewed attention after it was discovered that Taylor recently filed a lawsuit against Alan MacDonald and his daughter Cassie, a BYU student, for a car accident almost four years ago.

Cassie MacDonald, a junior studying broadcast journalism, was 16 years old and driving in American Fork when she looked down for a second. As she looked back up she noticed cars stopped in front of her...she hit three cars. The incident seemed minor, no ambulances were called and no injuries reported until Taylor filled his lawsuit in Provo 4th District Court Sept. 3.

Cassie MacDonald found out later that the man suing her for “serious, permanent and debilitating injuries” was the man pushing over the rock in the Goblin Valley video.

“I was a little bit surprised,” she said. “That was a two-ton rock that he basically came up to and pushed right off its base. He really put his back into it, and that took some serious muscle...from the looks of it, it doesn’t look like he is seriously disabled.”...

(Excerpt) Read more at universe.byu.edu ...


TOPICS: General Discusssion; Other Christian; Other non-Christian; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: antichristian; backlash; boyscouts; inman; lds; mormonism; religionbashing; utah
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From the excerpted article:

Two Utah Boy Scout leaders are facing significant backlash after posting a video online of the men tipping over a nearly 200-million-year-old rock formation in Goblin Valley State Park. Glenn Taylor and David Hall, from Highland, Utah, have now been removed from the Boy Scouts of America. An investigation is underway to determine whether the men will face felony charges.

Cont'd:

...leadership of the Utah National Parks Council, the Boy Scouts’ local chapter, consulted with leadership of the chartering organization for the men’s unit — The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints — including ward and stake leaders, according to council spokesperson John Gailey.

Cont'd:

The incident received renewed attention after it was discovered that Taylor recently filed a lawsuit against Alan MacDonald and his daughter Cassie, a BYU student, for a car accident almost four years ago. Cassie MacDonald, a junior studying broadcast journalism, was 16 years old and driving in American Fork when she looked down for a second. As she looked back up she noticed cars stopped in front of her...she hit three cars. The incident seemed minor, no ambulances were called and no injuries reported until Taylor filled his lawsuit in Provo 4th District Court Sept. 3. Cassie MacDonald found out later that the man suing her for “serious, permanent and debilitating injuries” was the man pushing over the rock in the Goblin Valley video. “I was a little bit surprised,” she said. “That was a two-ton rock that he basically came up to and pushed right off its base. He really put his back into it, and that took some serious muscle...from the looks of it, it doesn’t look like he is seriously disabled.”...

So this guy's a Mormon church Boy Scout leader. Pushes over a two-ton ancient rock formation. Glories about it online.

Gets removed from the Boy Scouts group. Faces potential criminal felony charges, etc.

And, showing no probs being able to push over such a hefty rock, has a case pending in Provo court against a BYU student for supposedly causing him: “serious, permanent and debilitating injuries”???

1 posted on 11/07/2013 4:33:58 AM PST by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian

All three may be closet male homosexual pedophiles as they certainly are not true to the Boy Scout way of life and should never be in charge of young boys as “Leaders”.


2 posted on 11/07/2013 4:44:22 AM PST by AKinAK (Keep your powder dry pilgrim.)
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To: Colofornian

Yep, you summed it up pretty good there. Goes to show what a sue-happy society we are these days.

My son is a boyscout and when I told him about this he said it goes against everything they are taught, especially the “leave no trace” part of camping...they are to do no damage nor leave anything behind to show that they were even there. I’m glad the “leaders” were relieved of duty and pray the scouts get someone to lead them properly.


3 posted on 11/07/2013 4:49:24 AM PST by trussell (I carry because...When seconds count between life and death, the police are only minutes away)
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To: Colofornian

When I was in Scouts, the rule was, “Take only pictures, leave only footprints.” Times change I suppose.


4 posted on 11/07/2013 5:08:20 AM PST by The_Victor (If all I want is a warm feeling, I should just wet my pants.)
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To: The_Victor

“When I was in Scouts, the rule was, “Take only pictures, leave only footprints.” Times change I suppose.”

My first thoughts too. Mindless destruction of a natural wonder is not just “having fun.”


5 posted on 11/07/2013 5:23:03 AM PST by FAA
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To: Colofornian

No matter what you say, Mormans make great neighbors. (Unless they start tipping your house!)


6 posted on 11/07/2013 5:45:21 AM PST by Gamecock (Many Atheists take the stand: "There is no God AND I hate Him.")
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To: FAA

That’s still the guideline for scouts.


7 posted on 11/07/2013 5:54:13 AM PST by gitmo ( If your theology doesn't become your biography it's useless.)
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To: Colofornian

People do stupid things. Back in 1971, I was in Carlsbad Caverns when the woman behind me noticed a small formation. She said to her partner, “It looks so fragile!” She then reached over and grabbed it and tried to see if it was. It wasn’t and no damage was done.

I thought ..”IDIOT!”

The scout leader, in Utah, should have warned others to stay away from the formation and notified a ranger immediately, but stupid is as stupid does, especially when you video your stupidity and post it on line.


8 posted on 11/07/2013 6:00:01 AM PST by Ruy Dias de Bivar (Sometimes you need 7+ more ammo. LOTS MORE.)
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To: Colofornian

You’ll have to help me understand why this is posted in the religion forum.

What role does MormonISM play in this story?

Idiots and cheats come in all varieties.


9 posted on 11/07/2013 6:55:28 AM PST by dmz
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To: Colofornian
“We’ve had hundreds of death threats,” Hall said...

No...

Wait!!

That was over the 'morally straight' clause.

10 posted on 11/07/2013 7:20:06 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: dmz
What role does MormonISM play in this story?

Interesting question.

Good thing the 'leader' wasn't a CATHOLIC with a bad back!

11 posted on 11/07/2013 7:21:59 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: dmz
You’ll have to help me understand why this is posted in the religion forum. What role does MormonISM play in this story? Idiots and cheats come in all varieties

These idiots -- and one cheat -- happened to be Mormon...belonging to the Mormon church.

12 posted on 11/07/2013 8:46:48 AM PST by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian

These idiots — and one cheat — happened to be Mormon...belonging to the Mormon church.

<><><>

Well, gosh, what do we need News/Activism for? We’ll just determine the religion of the perps for each story and post them here on the religion forum.

I guess what I am asking is what role does the religion of the perp play in this story?

Should we start posting, say, stories about drunk drivers here on the religion once we discover that they are evangelical? Pot busts if they are Protestant? Passing bad checks if they are Catholic?


13 posted on 11/07/2013 9:38:09 AM PST by dmz
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To: Colofornian

What motivates you to never praise God; but only deride Mormons?


14 posted on 11/07/2013 9:49:12 AM PST by laotzu
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To: laotzu

I praise God for you, Laotzu! (He loves you!)


15 posted on 11/07/2013 9:56:36 AM PST by Colofornian
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To: dmz; Colofornian; colorcountry; SZonian; SENTINEL; reaganaut
You’ll have to help me understand why this is posted in the religion forum.
What role does MormonISM play in this story?

Well, we see posts almost daily stating the mormons are just the nicest, most honest,kind, giving, helpful, and wonderful neighbors....those of us who have lived with mormons know that they are no different from any other class of people...and here is a good example of that!

The arrogance of mormons who believe they are God's "chosen" is highlighted by the actions of these two candidates for the "Jackass TV show". They saw themselves as "saviors".

16 posted on 11/07/2013 10:03:15 AM PST by greyfoxx39 (We can thank Mitt Romney for the present situation in our country. His feet are made of clay.)
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To: dmz
Well, gosh, what do we need News/Activism for? We’ll just determine the religion of the perps for each story and post them here on the religion forum. I guess what I am asking is what role does the religion of the perp play in this story?

Go back to the story:

Here, I'll highlight it for you:

...leadership of the Utah National Parks Council, the Boy Scouts’ local chapter, consulted with leadership of the chartering organization for the men’s unit — The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints...

The chartering org for this Boy Scout group in question was the Mormon church. They chose these leaders; it was their discernment -- or lack of it -- that put them into these leadership roles.

Secondly, the source itself for the article is a religious institution -- BYU.

Thirdly, the driver who hit this Boy Scout leader in question was a student at BYU, a religious institution.

Fourthly, if you go to the original link within the article, you can read the last quote from this now ex-Boy Scout as to who he apologized to: It's a six-letter word that starts with "c-h- "

(Last I knew, these institutions were deemed by society as "religious"...Do I have to conduct your reading of these articles for you, DMZ? Why do you have to have these details obvious within the article spelled out to you?)

17 posted on 11/07/2013 10:03:38 AM PST by Colofornian
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To: dmz
Should we start posting, say, stories about drunk drivers here on the religion once we discover that they are evangelical? Pot busts if they are Protestant? Passing bad checks if they are Catholic?

Yes...especially if these churches have placed such individuals in leadership roles representing the churches or auxiliary groups within the church.

And that's what we have here.

18 posted on 11/07/2013 10:05:37 AM PST by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian
I praise God

Yeah, yeah...sure you do, but only when you are called on it.

Please do not patronize God.

19 posted on 11/07/2013 10:22:58 AM PST by laotzu
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To: laotzu; freedomlover; All
What motivates you to never praise God; but only deride Mormons?

Well, I first tried to take the upper road in post #15..and indeed ALL of God's creation, including you & every Mormon, is praiseworthy...nothing patronizing there...

But, with your insistence in post #19...You can not only read me praising God here (June 30, 2013 post)...
Post #107: Praise God...
...but you can repent also for lying about me, posting falsely about me...
...And best of all, was the comment in post #105 of that link as to why I was praising God in that moment!

20 posted on 11/07/2013 10:43:44 AM PST by Colofornian
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To: dmz
"What role does MormonISM play in this story?"

The "leaders" in all positions within the mormon church are "called" by god. IOW, mormons in positions of authority pray to god for direction and guidance in selecting members to fill roles and positions.

One could then argue that if these clowns are "called of god", then it has a lot to do with the validity of such a "system", i.e. mormonism.

21 posted on 11/07/2013 10:50:13 AM PST by SZonian (Throwing our allegiances to political parties in the long run gave away our liberty.)
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To: Colofornian
I first tried to take the upper road in post #15

You have never posted an article praising God, heralding your faith, or witnessing the miracle that God's presence in our lives offers.

You exclusively post only to weaken Mormon faith.

Post #15 !! And then, only because I called you on it. Why never post #1? Why never the article itself?

Your calling to weaken Mormons is demonstrably stronger than your calling to witness for God. Why?

22 posted on 11/07/2013 11:22:02 AM PST by laotzu
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To: laotzu
Pointing out heresy is a worthwhile endeavor.

witnessing the miracle that God's presence in our lives offers.

You can get that same warm fuzzy from AA, Mormonism, Baha'i and countless self-help programs. What I say God is doing in my life has not one thing to do with the truth of Christianity. I am called to preach Christ crucified. Not hold myself out as proof that He exists.

23 posted on 11/07/2013 11:37:58 AM PST by Gamecock (Many Atheists take the stand: "There is no God AND I hate Him.")
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To: Gamecock
What I say God is doing in my life has not one thing to do with the truth of Christianity

I am sincerely sorry if that truth of Christianity has not one thing to do with your life.

24 posted on 11/07/2013 12:00:14 PM PST by laotzu
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To: AKinAK

bump

sad that the Mormons don’t agree.


25 posted on 11/07/2013 12:01:24 PM PST by GeronL
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To: laotzu
You have never posted an article praising God, heralding your faith...

The faith I herald is Evangelical, and what do Evangelicals do at church services other than worship?

Thread posted July 31, 2012:

THREAD: Massive evangelical church service set to run on the eve of Democratic convention

Tebow shares my Evangelical faith:
Tebow's most amazing trait? Humility

Your OTHER false claim: ...or witnessing the miracle that God's presence in our lives offers.

Incarnationally Jesus was certainly most prominently Present pre-atonement -- and with that ensuing atonement He took our place...you can't get any more "present" than that:

Good Friday THREAD 2012: He Took Our Place: Identity Theft: Recovering Who You Are, Part I [Jesus made to be sin & a curse]

You need to stop your false claims to omniscience as to what I've posted with your "never" and "exclusive" false claims.

Obviously, I've posted primarily on Mormonism...
...just as if you were going to a Mormon blog like Mormon Coffee: It's Forbidden, but It's Good!...
...you wouldn't expect a series of articles on Baptists, Presbyterians, Methodists, Evangelicals and the like!

26 posted on 11/07/2013 12:05:26 PM PST by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian
The faith I herald is Evangelical

Perhaps I have been unfair to, and about you.

Please, if you would be so kind, direct me to the last article you posted heralding Evangelicals and not deriding Mormons.

27 posted on 11/07/2013 12:12:10 PM PST by laotzu
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To: laotzu; Colofornian

Interesting post...

So it got me to thinking, has laotzu ever posted a comment or article on, for example, a Proddy vs. Catholic thread in order to present a similar “argument” about stopping the “hate”? It’s not like there is any shortage of opportunity.

In the same vein, went back to see if laotzu had ever posted a comment or article that praised God, heralded his faith or witnessed a miracle that God’s presence in our lives offers.

Went back to January and nary a one...hmmmm.

Yet, if you look for the snark, sarcasm, denigration and derision towards those who post about mormonism...hoo boy! No shortages there...such “christian” behavior.

A “champion” to those mormons who consider the “anti’s” comparable to dogs or swine.

From a mormon...
George A. Smith - “If a faith will not bear to be investigated; if its preachers and professors are afraid to have it examined, their foundation must be very weak.”

Journal of Discourses, vol. 14, p. 216 (1871)


28 posted on 11/07/2013 12:16:23 PM PST by SZonian (Throwing our allegiances to political parties in the long run gave away our liberty.)
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To: Colofornian
My apologies. The answer I requested was right there in your post all along.

So. What is that? One pro-evangelical article for every hundred anti-mormon?

29 posted on 11/07/2013 12:17:29 PM PST by laotzu
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To: Colofornian

Making death threats against these bozo’s is stupid.

What they did was incredibly stupid and violated every tennant of scouting as well.. you just have to wonder about these adults.

We all are flawed creatures, but what would possess a group of grown men to act like teenage boys? Particularly a group of men who are part of an organization dedicated to guiding boys away from such stupid behavior.


30 posted on 11/07/2013 12:19:39 PM PST by HamiltonJay
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To: SZonian
In the same vein, went back to see if laotzu had ever posted a comment or article that praised God

And could not find a single article posted weakening another's faith.

31 posted on 11/07/2013 12:19:50 PM PST by laotzu
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To: Colofornian
Thanks again for directing me to one article you have posted that was not anti-Mormon.

I could not help but notice that you, nevertheless, used it for yet another anti-Mormon rant.

Why is your motivation to deride Mormons stronger than your motivation to witness for God?

After all, this is the religion forum.

32 posted on 11/07/2013 12:26:45 PM PST by laotzu
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To: laotzu

Article? No, comments, too many to count.

If a Christian is compelled, nay, called to counter what their faith deems heretical to Christianity and they do so, are you supporting their faith when you conduct personal attacks against said person for doing so?


33 posted on 11/07/2013 12:31:49 PM PST by SZonian (Throwing our allegiances to political parties in the long run gave away our liberty.)
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To: laotzu
Thanks again for directing me to one article you have posted that was not anti-Mormon.

(You can't even read basic posts, eh? I directed you to THREE...give it up...you can't even comprehend a single post of mine, let alone what I've posted in my entirety)...

34 posted on 11/07/2013 12:37:01 PM PST by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian
Obviously, I've posted primarily on Mormonism..

Why is your motivation to deride Mormons stronger than your motivation to witness for God?

35 posted on 11/07/2013 12:45:03 PM PST by laotzu
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To: HamiltonJay
Making death threats against these bozo’s is stupid.

Yup...and criminal, too.

But some naturalists/environmentalists think they are 'sovereign' in oversight of even kicking up dust in certain places.

36 posted on 11/07/2013 12:45:32 PM PST by Colofornian
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To: laotzu
My apologies. The answer I requested was right there in your post all along.

Apologies accepted.

37 posted on 11/07/2013 12:46:33 PM PST by Colofornian
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To: SZonian
you conduct personal attacks

What are you on about?

38 posted on 11/07/2013 12:47:50 PM PST by laotzu
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To: Colofornian
It may seem that I have only criticism to offer you. I regret that.

Please ping me the next time you start a thread that is not anti-mormon so that we may meet on a different field.

39 posted on 11/07/2013 12:53:54 PM PST by laotzu
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To: SZonian; laotzu; All
...it got me to thinking, has laotzu ever posted a comment or article on, for example, a Proddy vs. Catholic thread in order to present a similar “argument” about stopping the “hate”? It’s not like there is any shortage of opportunity.

Good Q, Szonian...

Uh...Laotzu, since I don't claim sovereign omniscience over your posting history like you've REPEATEDLY done on mine, wanna answer this Q triggered by Szonian's post?...and if you haven't posted something like that, why not?

In the same vein, went back to see if laotzu had ever posted a comment or article that praised God, heralded his faith or witnessed a miracle that God’s presence in our lives offers. Went back to January and nary a one...hmmmm.

Interesting religious hypocrisy you've noted, Szonian, on Laotzu's part.

Well...Prompted by your post, Szonian...

I then went back over his thread-posting history 2000-2012...and I didn't see a single such thread-post by Laotzu...unless ya wanna count: Christ-like smudge on garage floor fetches $1,500 on eBay [Aug. 10 2007 thread post by Laotzu)

...Perhaps you can explain that Laotzu? [And maybe we missed something...we're not as 'omniscient' as you are on knowing the comprehensive thread-posting activities of other posters like you pretend to be]

So, even tho it's apparently some "high priority" that threads get posted on FR that -- in Laotzu's words -- "praise[d] God, herald...faith or witness[ed] a miracle that God’s presence in our lives offers" -- he's had 12.5 years to do that...and instead, we see thread offerings like this Dec. 31, 2008 gem:

Thanksgiving With A Space Alien

*****************************

You know what I think Szonian? Here, we had Laotzu post a thread almost six years ago --

Offended Muslim Syndrome & Self-Help Support Groups [Thread posted by Laotzu, 12/10/07] --
And perhaps Laotzu caught that virus found in that given thread...

...Only instead of getting "Offended Muslim Syndrome" -- he caught the "Offended Mormon Syndrome" strain!


40 posted on 11/07/2013 1:14:22 PM PST by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian
wanna answer this Q triggered by Szonian's post?

Be happy to.

Were you to check, you would not find a single article I have posted weakening another's faith.

I had long ago forgotten those articles I posted from The Peoples Cube. Funny stuff. Well worth going back and reading again. Thank you.

No hypocrisy there. Anything else?

41 posted on 11/07/2013 1:40:42 PM PST by laotzu
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To: Colofornian
P.S. I identified both of those articles with keywords such as: sarcasm, satire, humor...

None were on the religion forum. They are truly funny articles. You might enjoy them.

42 posted on 11/07/2013 1:52:58 PM PST by laotzu
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To: Colofornian
P.S.S. :

"I have always been offended by rubber ducks," says Mahmud Said of Portland, Oregon. "For a long time I felt stigmatized and inadequate, until one day I decided to write about it on an Internet forum. I received hundreds of heart-felt emails - from Morocco to Indonesia. It turns out that thousands of Muslim men between the ages of 18 and 35 have had traumatic experiences with rubber ducks.

"We started a support group that has grown to 10,000 members. Not only do we share horrifying rubber duck stories, we also try to increase public awareness by sabotaging the world supply of rubber ducks, setting fire to factories, abducting rubber duck distributors, and intimidating retailers. These are building blocks for our healthy future. With Allah as my witness, our public awareness campaign will soon result in a completely rubber-duck-free world."

Thanks again. I had totally forgotten about this article.

43 posted on 11/07/2013 1:57:15 PM PST by laotzu
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To: laotzu; SZonian; All
Your comment doesn't address Szonian's comment:

In the same vein, went back to see if laotzu had ever posted a comment or article that praised God, heralded his faith or witnessed a miracle that God’s presence in our lives offers. Went back to January and nary a one...hmmmm.

I went back thru your posting history all the way back to April 2000....and likewise didn't see any thread posting that...

* Praises God
* Heralds your supposed Baptist faith
* or witnesses a miracle that God's presence in our lives offers

(But, hey, maybe I missed something not evident within scanning of those headlines)

If this is of such import to you -- one that you now gauge as some "weapon" you attempt to hold as some standard over my posting head -- where are your threads of this nature these past 12.5 years?

What? You have no faith to herald?

What? Your God isn't praiseworthy?

What? No miraculous presence of God in your life?

And worse? How can you hypocritically attempt to "call out" somebody on something you yourself won't engage in?

44 posted on 11/07/2013 2:04:32 PM PST by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian
and likewise didn't see any thread posting that... * Praises God * Heralds your supposed Baptist faith * or witnesses a miracle that God's presence in our lives offers

Well, you caught me out. Its true, I have never.... Oh, wait:

________________________________________________________
Thursday, November 07, 2013 9:11:51 AM · 7 of 29
laotzu to Colofornian

Is this not a beautiful morning? God certainly does great work.

He deserves our praise, glory and song. But instead....

________________________________________________________

Why, that was just this morning. Isn't this fun?

C'mon, give me another one.

45 posted on 11/07/2013 2:12:21 PM PST by laotzu
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To: laotzu; SZonian; All
Were you to check, you would not find a single article I have posted weakening another's faith.

Oh, we -- and all Muslims -- were supposed to take that biting sarcastic Islam thread you posted in Dec. 2007 (the one I linked toward end of post #40) as "faith-promoting" & "edifying" of the Muslim "faith"?

You have a REAL problem.

On the one hand, you used the word "never" several times to claim open falsehoods about my posting history...
...and then on the SAME hand [there doesn't appear to be "the other hand" with you] you claim in your response to my post that mentions this particular Muslim thread that it's somehow not an effort to diminish the Islamic faith.

Why do you continue to insult our intelligence when we don't need to rely upon your filtered attempts to interpret what is so obvious?

46 posted on 11/07/2013 2:17:40 PM PST by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian
one that you now gauge as some "weapon"

Why are you quoting me as using the word "weapon"? I know that you a smart fellow. There is really no need for that.

47 posted on 11/07/2013 2:21:27 PM PST by laotzu
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To: laotzu; SZonian; All
Well, you caught me out. Its true, I have never.... Oh, wait: ________________________________________________________ Thursday, November 07, 2013 9:11:51 AM · 7 of 29 laotzu to Colofornian Is this not a beautiful morning? God certainly does great work. He deserves our praise, glory and song. But instead.... ________________________________________________________ Why, that was just this morning. Isn't this fun? C'mon, give me another one. ***************************

So what? You change standards in mid-stream? Your standards attempted to apply my way re: posts #27 & #22 were on articles posted -- not just individual comments sneaking their way into a much broader or even distinct thread topic.

Here, I'll help out your memory recall -- something that's vital for actual ethical relational interaction with other posters:

Laotzu, post #27: direct me to the

last ARTICLE you posted heralding Evangelicals...

Laotzu, post #22: You have never

posted an ARTICLE praising God, heralding your faith, or witnessing the miracle that God's presence in our lives offers. You exclusively post only


to weaken Mormon faith.

Where's those ARTICLES you've posted on the above topics?

48 posted on 11/07/2013 2:25:13 PM PST by Colofornian
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To: laotzu

Still dodging, but no matter...questioning a person directly about their motivations, purpose, faith, etc.

All designed to hijack the thread and make it about the poster, not the subject material...

I consider that a personal attack...when one challenges the character of an individual vs. presenting rebuttal information.

I’d say you’ve done a dandy job here of hijacking the thread and making it all about folks and not the subject matter.

But then, that was the point, wasn’t it?


49 posted on 11/07/2013 2:27:10 PM PST by SZonian (Throwing our allegiances to political parties in the long run gave away our liberty.)
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To: laotzu

verbal weaponry is still that...especially when falsehoods are spread...as you have engaged in today...


50 posted on 11/07/2013 2:27:30 PM PST by Colofornian
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