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The Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689 with Scripture Proofs [3 of 34]
Center for Reformed Theology and Apologetics ^ | 1689

Posted on 11/08/2013 6:51:37 AM PST by Alex Murphy

CHAPTER 2; OF GOD AND OF THE HOLY TRINITY

Paragraph 1. The Lord our God is but one only living and true God;1 whose subsistence is in and of Himself,2 infinite in being and perfection; whose essence cannot be comprehended by any but Himself;3 a most pure spirit,4 invisible, without body, parts, or passions, who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto;5 who is immutable,6 immense,7 eternal,8 incomprehensible, almighty,9 every way infinite, most holy,10 most wise, most free, most absolute; working all things according to the counsel of His own immutable and most righteous will,11 for His own glory;12 most loving, gracious, merciful, long-suffering, abundant in goodness and truth, forgiving iniquity, transgression, and sin; the rewarder of them that diligently seek Him,13 and withal most just and terrible in His judgments,14 hating all sin,15 and who will by no means clear the guilty.16
1 1 Cor. 8:4,6; Deut. 6:4
2 Jer. 10:10; Isa. 48:12
3 Exod. 3:14
4 John 4:24
5 1 Tim. 1:17; Deut. 4:15,16
6 Mal. 3:6
7 1 Kings 8:27; Jer. 23:23
8 Ps. 90:2
9 Gen. 17:1
10 Isa. 6:3
11 Ps. 115:3; Isa. 46:10
12 Prov. 16:4; Rom. 11:36
13 Exod. 34:6,7; Heb. 11:6
14 Neh. 9:32,33
15 Ps. 5:5,6
16 Exod. 34:7; Nahum 1:2,3

Paragraph 2. God, having all life,17 glory,18 goodness,19 blessedness, in and of Himself, is alone in and unto Himself all-sufficient, not standing in need of any creature which He hath made, nor deriving any glory from them,20 but only manifesting His own glory in, by, unto, and upon them; He is the alone fountain of all being, of whom, through whom, and to whom are all things,21 and He hath most sovereign dominion over all creatures, to do by them, for them, or upon them, whatsoever Himself pleases;22 in His sight all things are open and manifest,23 His knowledge is infinite, infallible, and independent upon the creature, so as nothing is to Him contingent or uncertain;24 He is most holy in all His counsels, in all His works,25 and in all His commands; to Him is due from angels and men, whatsoever worship,26 service, or obedience, as creatures they owe unto the Creator, and whatever He is further pleased to require of them.
17 John 5:26
18 Ps. 148:13
19 Ps. 119:68
20 Job 22:2,3
21 Rom. 11:34-36
22 Dan. 4:25,34,35
23 Heb. 4:13
24 Ezek. 11:5; Acts 15:18
25 Ps. 145:17
26 Rev. 5:12-14

Paragraph 3. In this divine and infinite Being there are three subsistences, the Father, the Word or Son, and Holy Spirit,27 of one substance, power, and eternity, each having the whole divine essence, yet the essence undivided:28 the Father is of none, neither begotten nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father;29 the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Father and the Son;30 all infinite, without beginning, therefore but one God, who is not to be divided in nature and being, but distinguished by several peculiar relative properties and personal relations; which doctrine of the Trinity is the foundation of all our communion with God, and comfortable dependence on Him.
27 1 John 5:7; Matt. 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:14
28 Exod. 3:14; John 14:11; I Cor. 8:6
29 John 1:14,18
30 John 15:26; Gal. 4:6




TOPICS: Apologetics; Evangelical Christian; Mainline Protestant; Theology
KEYWORDS:
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Each day I will be posting a new chapter from the Baptist Confession of Faith, as hosted on Reformed.org.

Forward
1. Of the Holy Scriptures
2. Of God and the Holy Trinity
3. Of God's Decree
4. Of Creation
5. Of Divine Providence
6. Of the Fall of Man, of Sin, and of the Punishment thereof
7. Of God's Covenant
8. Of Christ the Mediator
9. Of Free Will
10. Of Effectual Calling
11. Of Justification
12. Of Adoption
13. Of Sanctification
14. Of Saving Faith
15. Of Repentance unto Life and Salvation
16. Of Good Works
17. Of the Perseverance of the Saints
18. Of the Assurance of Grace and Salvation
19. Of the Law of God
20. Of the Gospel and the Extent of Grace thereof
21. Of Christian Liberty and Liberty of Conscience
22. Of Religious Worship and the Sabbath Day
23. Of Lawful Oaths and Vows
24. Of the Civil Magistrate
25. Of Marriage
26. Of the Church
27. Of the Communion of Saints
28. Of Baptism and the Lord's Supper
29. Of Baptism
30. Of the Lord's Supper
31. Of the State of Man after Death, and of the Resurrection of the Dead
32. Of the Last Judgment
Ending Statement and Signatories

1 posted on 11/08/2013 6:51:37 AM PST by Alex Murphy
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To: Gamecock; Greetings_Puny_Humans; ducttape45; RoadGumby

Baptist Confession PING


2 posted on 11/08/2013 6:52:21 AM PST by Alex Murphy ("the defacto Leader of the FR Calvinist Protestant Brigades")
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To: Alex Murphy

I’m a 1689 Baptist. A small percentage of modern Baptists would agree with their own Baptist ancestors.


3 posted on 11/08/2013 7:16:12 AM PST by .45 Long Colt
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To: Alex Murphy

Please put me on ping list


4 posted on 11/08/2013 8:42:43 AM PST by Ecliptic (.)
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To: Alex Murphy
I have a question and I mean it with sincerity and nothing more.
What is the difference between Baptists and other denominations? I haven't found any site that offers a decent explanation between the 41,000 different Protestant denominations.

I did have a Methodist geometry teacher once. She was from the South and WHAT a drawl. I was hard put to pay attention. She was a good teacher once I got used to the sound and rhythm of her drawl. Miss Hill.

5 posted on 11/08/2013 9:38:13 AM PST by cloudmountain
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To: cloudmountain; Gamecock
I have a question and I mean it with sincerity and nothing more. What is the difference between Baptists and other denominations? I haven't found any site that offers a decent explanation between the 41,000 different Protestant denominations.

When you find a site that provides the list of "41,000 different Protestant denominations", we can start to talk about whether/how they differ. If you cannot locate a list with 41,000 unique entries, we can start to talk about making a priori assumptions that there are 41,000 and that they all differ.

6 posted on 11/08/2013 9:52:07 AM PST by Alex Murphy ("the defacto Leader of the FR Calvinist Protestant Brigades")
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To: Alex Murphy

What is a number for how many different Christian denominations we can all agree upon?


7 posted on 11/08/2013 10:05:37 AM PST by FourtySeven (47)
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To: FourtySeven
What is a number for how many different Christian denominations we can all agree upon?

How many different Catholic denominations can we agree on?

8 posted on 11/08/2013 10:20:28 AM PST by Alex Murphy ("the defacto Leader of the FR Calvinist Protestant Brigades")
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To: cloudmountain

There’s not 41,000 denominations, though I wouldn’t care if there were 100,000 denominations. That’s 100,000 defeats for Rome’s power hungry little hands.


9 posted on 11/08/2013 10:33:51 AM PST by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Alex Murphy

Depends I guess (on how one defines “Catholic”) but if one defines “Catholic” as those churches in communion with the Bishop of Rome (the Pope) the answer to your question to me would be: none.


10 posted on 11/08/2013 10:37:40 AM PST by FourtySeven (47)
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To: FourtySeven
Not that the distinction between Catholicism and other religions is all that important, though.
11 posted on 11/08/2013 10:42:23 AM PST by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: FourtySeven
Depends I guess (on how one defines “Catholic”) but if one defines “Catholic” as those churches in communion with the Bishop of Rome (the Pope) the answer to your question to me would be: none.

It also depends on how one defines "denomination" and "different" :)

12 posted on 11/08/2013 10:49:31 AM PST by Alex Murphy ("the defacto Leader of the FR Calvinist Protestant Brigades")
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

That’s an interesting photo. I have seen “explainations” that say it was actually a Bible given to him by some Arabic patriarch (not pictured, from some Coptic church allegedly).

I don’t know. And (at least) for me, that’s the point. There exist no firm absolute source to determine the photograph’s authenticity, (at least nine that it could find after literally spending hours one Sunday afternoon searching) much less what he is actually kissing, so,for myself there isn’t much reason to get all worked up about it.

But, should anyone be concerned he is kissing a Koran: I have of course considered that possibility and concluded that, from a human standpoint, it’s not that odd to show such gratitude for what another (this case a Muslim) would consider such a “treasure”. It’s not as if he is worshipping the book. After all, if someone gave me a prized possession of theirs, I may kiss it too to show how much I appreciate the gesture.

But that’s just me. “Your mileage may vary” I guess.


13 posted on 11/08/2013 11:10:27 AM PST by FourtySeven (47)
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To: Alex Murphy
It also depends on how one defines "denomination" and "different" :)

You're absolutely right.

14 posted on 11/08/2013 11:11:44 AM PST by FourtySeven (47)
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To: Alex Murphy

i am shocked, this section is actually very good on describing God and the Trinity. ( even down to agreeing with the filioque )


15 posted on 11/08/2013 11:19:06 AM PST by one Lord one faith one baptism
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism
i am shocked, this section is actually very good on describing God and the Trinity.

I am shocked that you are shocked.

16 posted on 11/08/2013 11:22:17 AM PST by Alex Murphy ("the defacto Leader of the FR Calvinist Protestant Brigades")
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To: Alex Murphy; cloudmountain; Gamecock

“When you find a site that provides the list of “41,000 different Protestant denominations”, we can start to talk about whether/how they differ. If you cannot locate a list with 41,000 unique entries, we can start to talk about making a priori assumptions that there are 41,000 and that they all differ. “

see how the mind of man differs from that of God -

John 17:20 “ i do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, that they all may be one; even as thou Father art in me and i in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me”

how many who claim to know Jesus, believe in Jesus have ever meditated on this prayer and have ever asked themself, was this prayer to the Father answered?
i would say it was answered and Christians have been “one” in His Church for close to 2,000 years now.
of course, Satan has planted weeds at various points over the 2,000 year history, nonetheless, there still is only ONE faith, ONE Lord, One Baptism.


17 posted on 11/08/2013 11:52:19 AM PST by one Lord one faith one baptism
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To: Alex Murphy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations

That was my source.

18 posted on 11/08/2013 12:26:07 PM PST by cloudmountain
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To: cloudmountain; Gamecock; Mr Rogers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations
That was my source.

There's a awful lot of different Catholic and Orthodox denominations listed on that page.

19 posted on 11/08/2013 12:29:10 PM PST by Alex Murphy ("the defacto Leader of the FR Calvinist Protestant Brigades")
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
There’s not 41,000 denominations, though I wouldn’t care if there were 100,000 denominations. That’s 100,000 defeats for Rome’s power hungry little hands.

THIS was the source of that number.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations

I wouldn't even IMAGINE how many of anything when it comes to religion, but I understand your snarl back to me. Shows me a lot about your character.

20 posted on 11/08/2013 12:31:23 PM PST by cloudmountain
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To: cloudmountain

Cause Wiki is such a reliable source! </sarc>


21 posted on 11/08/2013 12:49:29 PM PST by Gamecock (Many Atheists take the stand: "There is no God AND I hate Him.")
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To: Alex Murphy

I think what they are looking for is something like this:

-Protestants: includes Church of England, Anglican, some Lutheran
-Evangelicals: most others make this up to include most Baptists.
-Others:


22 posted on 11/08/2013 12:54:58 PM PST by redleghunter
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To: Alex Murphy
There's a awful lot of different Catholic and Orthodox denominations listed on that page.

Yes, there are.
I wasn't talking about numbers. I was talking about theology.
To this day there isn't a Protestant alive who can tell me the THEOLOGICAL difference between, say, Episcopalian and Lutheran. But, the ones I speak with don't take umbrage. They simply don't KNOW the theological difference between the denominations. End of story.

Yes, there are a lot of Orthodox Catholics. When Rome chose LATIN as the language of the Church, the Greek speakers weren't terribly happy about it. Words are important. During the 1960's the pope then declared that the Mass could be said in the vernacular. It wasn't long before most of the Orthodox churches of the world reunited with Rome. The Russian Orthodoxy did NOT.

I was in Serbia this year and went to Mass in Belgrade. I could only understand "Jesu Christus" (or something very similar) and "Amen" in Serbian. I thought it would be SOMEthing like Russian. But, no, it was TOTALLY different.

http://newchristendom.blogspot.com/2012/10/orthodox-catholic-reunion-what-will-it.html
THINGS ORTHODOX AND CATHOLICS DO NOT NEED TO AGREE ON FOR REUNION:
#1. Beards. Get over it. No sane Jesus loving Christian would prevent reunion because of such a triviality.

#2. Celibate priests. This is not a matter of dogma for Catholics, but merely the practice of the Latin rite and not even the eastern rite Catholics such as the Maronites. And Orthodoxy would not need to change to accept this practice, they would merely need to allow some (Latin rite) Catholics to continue this practice. And the fact that Orthodox priests may not remarry, and that their bishops may not be married shows that they understand the Latin reasoning to a degree, and should be able to respect and tolerate the Latin Rite on this discipline.

#3. Charisms of religious orders. Some Orthodox criticize Catholic piety for having different religious orders with different callings, unlike the Orthodox who have a more singular vision of what religious life should be like.

#4. Leavened or unleavened bread.

#5. Statues in the round vs. icons only.

#6. Different types of miracles. (Orthodox saints do not have stigmata, while some other miracles seem to only happen to Orthodox or Eastern Catholic saints, such as miracles of uncreated light appearing). Either way, let's agree that we both have holy ones who have miracles, and not disrespect the other side for it's differences.

#7. Differences of devotional practices. This one actually get's me steamed up a little. I have heard Catholics roundly criticized by Orthodox for praying the Rosary or Stations of the Cross. Generally the critique is that prayer focusing on events is not spiritual enough, and the Orthodox are soooo much more spiritual in how they pray. This kind of attitude is toxic for everyone who touches it. Both sides have deep histories of very intense types of prayer, and getting into a spitting contest here is just petty. In defense of the Orthodox critics on this topic, I have often found that they have wrong information about Catholic practices anyway.

#8. Calendar issues. Fact: There are three calendars in use among Orthodox churches who are in communion with each other: Julian, Revised Julian, and Gregorian. This fact should be the end of the discussion if this issue is brought up in the context of reunion. It is currently a controversy in Orthodoxy, and it can continue to be a controversy in a reunited Church.

#9. Orthodox crabbing about "proselytizing" in "their lands". Give me a break. If I, as a Catholic, lived in a majority Orthodox country (in Eastern Europe or Russia), I would need to go to a Church in communion with the pope. It is as simple as that. The presence of Catholic Churches in these areas is totally legit, and Orthodox need to get over it. Was the way they got there in some cases not a good way? Perhaps. But the fact is that Catholics who wish to receive the Eucharist from priests in communion with the Apostolic See need somewhere to go. And the fact that Orthodox have churches in America and elsewhere shows that they do the same thing the Catholics have done, yet the Catholics don't gripe one bit about it. I am just fine with there being an Orthodox diocese in my area. Let's each make our case and let people decide which team is right. These a just a few things that it will not take to achieve unity. Unfortunately, that are often the ones most discussed as if they really are an impediment to unity. Anyone have any other items to add to the list?

23 posted on 11/08/2013 12:55:55 PM PST by cloudmountain
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To: Gamecock
Cause Wiki is such a reliable source!

But....but, but, it's on the Internet!!! It HAS to be true!
Or is the "truth" a matter of choice and judgment? No, that can't be either. It's on the Internet and so is Wiki and I KNOW that NO ONE on the FR site EVER, ever, ever, ever uses Wiki!! How COULD they? It's...blasphemy!

24 posted on 11/08/2013 12:58:26 PM PST by cloudmountain
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To: FourtySeven; Greetings_Puny_Humans
This is how Catholic Answers, answered the Pope JPII Quran kissing: Q:1. "John Paul II kissed the Quaran!" Really this does strike me as odd. I can't reason why he would do that. Did he really do that?

A:Yes, he did.

Pope John Paul - Kissed the Koran

Many non-Catholic Christians objected when Pope John Paul II kissed the Koran during a visit to a mosque several years ago. However, in showing respect for Islam’s scriptures, the Holy Father was following the advice of one of the greatest evangelists of all time, the Apostle Paul, who described his own approach to inter-faith dialogue in these words:

1 Corinthians 9:19-23 19Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law. 22To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. 23I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.,/I.

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=332095

I do believe he kissed this Quran long before Muslims were blowing up US GIs in Iraq.

25 posted on 11/08/2013 1:05:49 PM PST by redleghunter
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism
I agree. Christ's Church, He is the Head and we are the members. Romans:

So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh to live according to the flesh -- for if you are living according to the flesh you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the flesh, you will live. For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, 'Abba! Father!' The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him that we may indeed be glorified with Him." (Romans 8:12-17).

26 posted on 11/08/2013 1:12:17 PM PST by redleghunter
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To: cloudmountain
Sir, below is the answer most Evangelicals will give you. To try to pin down Evangelicals by a brick and mortar church or ruling ecclesiolatry is like bringing a football bat to a baseball game. This is what St Paul put together in his epistle to the Romans"

So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh to live according to the flesh -- for if you are living according to the flesh you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the flesh, you will live. For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, 'Abba! Father!' The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him that we may indeed be glorified with Him." (Romans 8:12-17).

27 posted on 11/08/2013 1:17:40 PM PST by redleghunter
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations


28 posted on 11/08/2013 1:18:39 PM PST by cloudmountain
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To: redleghunter

Thanks I learned something through your post.


29 posted on 11/08/2013 1:20:00 PM PST by FourtySeven (47)
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To: cloudmountain
I wasn't talking about numbers. I was talking about theology. To this day there isn't a Protestant alive who can tell me the THEOLOGICAL difference between, say, Episcopalian and Lutheran. But, the ones I speak with don't take umbrage. They simply don't KNOW the theological difference between the denominations. End of story.

If you don't know the differences between them, or whether there are any at all, why then do you yourself claim that there are 41,000 different Protestant denominations?

And you're right - until you yourself can back up the claim that there are 41,000 theologically different Protestant denominations, then this is where your story ends.

30 posted on 11/08/2013 1:22:51 PM PST by Alex Murphy ("the defacto Leader of the FR Calvinist Protestant Brigades")
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To: redleghunter
***I do believe he kissed this Quran long before Muslims were blowing up US GIs in Iraq.***

Probably. But Muslims have been killing Americans long before Iraq.

31 posted on 11/08/2013 1:23:45 PM PST by Gamecock (Many Atheists take the stand: "There is no God AND I hate Him.")
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To: cloudmountain
I was talking about theology.

If you believe Evangelicals have over 41,000 "theologies" you are in error. At one point there were 7 churches in Asia Minor in which Christ directly addressed in Revelation. They were called churches, plural. There may be hundreds of thousands or millions of different Evangelical churches, but the "theology" or being more specific, the authority is God's Word. Thus the name Bible Believing churches.

I know it seems odd to Roman Catholics (yea, alas I was raised and very practicing moons ago) that there is no Evangelical pope or regional bishops (some denominations of Protestants do have this structure) but to them it all makes sense based on the Scriptures I posted from Romans 8 and in many other places.

32 posted on 11/08/2013 1:26:04 PM PST by redleghunter
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To: redleghunter
Sir, below is the answer most Evangelicals will give you. To try to pin down Evangelicals by a brick and mortar church or ruling ecclesiolatry is like bringing a football bat to a baseball game. This is what St Paul put together in his epistle to the Romans"

It's ma'am.
Football bat to a baseball game: very appropriate analogy.

The Romans: St. Paul went to Rome to convert the Romans. He couldn't do much with them because the Romans wanted to listen to someone who had KNOWN Jesus and had been WITH him. So, Paul sent for Peter. Think of that LONG voyage.
In the Vatican, downstairs, which was once street level, there is a metal box (in a glass case, of course) and the box is marked: HERE LIES PETER.
There, inside the box, were the bones of St. Peter. So simple, so clear.

Peter and Paul, talk about the "dynamic duo."

33 posted on 11/08/2013 1:27:14 PM PST by cloudmountain
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To: redleghunter
If you believe Evangelicals have over 41,000 "theologies" you are in error. At one point there were 7 churches in Asia Minor in which Christ directly addressed in Revelation. They were called churches, plural. There may be hundreds of thousands or millions of different Evangelical churches, but the "theology" or being more specific, the authority is God's Word. Thus the name Bible Believing churches. I know it seems odd to Roman Catholics (yea, alas I was raised and very practicing moons ago) that there is no Evangelical pope or regional bishops (some denominations of Protestants do have this structure) but to them it all makes sense based on the Scriptures I posted from Romans 8 and in many other places.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations

It's not what I believe. How would I know something like that? It's what is written on the above site.

34 posted on 11/08/2013 1:30:48 PM PST by cloudmountain
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To: Alex Murphy
If you don't know the differences between them, or whether there are any at all, why then do you yourself claim that there are 41,000 different Protestant denominations?
And you're right - until you yourself can back up the claim that there are 41,000 theologically different Protestant denominations, then this is where your story ends.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations

See Note.
From the Internet, listed above:
Note: This is not a complete list, but aims to provide a comprehensible overview of the diversity among denominations of Christianity. As there are reported to be approximately 41,000 Christian denominations, many of which cannot be verified to be significant, only those denominations with Wikipedia articles will be listed in order to ensure that all entries on this list are notable and verifiable.

Granted, Wiki isn't the Gospel, but it's a source of information that MANY internet folks use.

35 posted on 11/08/2013 1:36:25 PM PST by cloudmountain
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To: cloudmountain; redleghunter
It's not what I believe. How would I know something like that? It's what is written on the above site.

I guess Protestants are responsible for what Wikipedia says about Protestants, redleg. Better round up the gang, and see what sort of re-write we can come up with before the weekend!

36 posted on 11/08/2013 1:37:40 PM PST by Alex Murphy ("the defacto Leader of the FR Calvinist Protestant Brigades")
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To: Gamecock
I was hoping JPII would be more like Urban II and muster forces to obliterate Islam.
37 posted on 11/08/2013 1:42:45 PM PST by redleghunter
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To: cloudmountain; Alex Murphy

***Granted, Wiki isn’t the Gospel, but it’s a source of information that MANY internet folks use.***

So it’s on the level of tradition?


38 posted on 11/08/2013 1:44:35 PM PST by Gamecock (Many Atheists take the stand: "There is no God AND I hate Him.")
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To: Alex Murphy
I guess Protestants are responsible for what Wikipedia says about Protestants, redleg. Better round up the gang, and see what sort of re-write we can come up with before the weekend!

Where DOES Wiki get its info? From FR? From books? From the INTERNET? NOOO, say it ain't so.

I IMAGINE that Wiki actually did some research. MAYbe they even asked some Protestant parishes!! Nooo, can't be. :o)

RE-WRITE!!!

No one is responsible, of course, NEVER my fault, nope, not me. I didn't write that. Nonono.

39 posted on 11/08/2013 1:46:20 PM PST by cloudmountain
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To: Gamecock
So it’s on the level of tradition?

Go me. How would I know? I'm not part of that company. Are you?

Tradition...you made me think of Tevya.

40 posted on 11/08/2013 1:47:42 PM PST by cloudmountain
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To: cloudmountain; redleghunter; Gamecock
Where DOES Wiki get its info? From FR? From books? From the INTERNET? NOOO, say it ain't so. I IMAGINE that Wiki actually did some research. MAYbe they even asked some Protestant parishes!! Nooo, can't be. :o) RE-WRITE!!! No one is responsible, of course, NEVER my fault, nope, not me. I didn't write that. Nonono.

Like I said, this is where your story ends.

41 posted on 11/08/2013 2:00:35 PM PST by Alex Murphy ("the defacto Leader of the FR Calvinist Protestant Brigades")
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To: cloudmountain
My apolgies Ma'am. Did not know.

The below is tradition correct?

The Romans: St. Paul went to Rome to convert the Romans. He couldn't do much with them because the Romans wanted to listen to someone who had KNOWN Jesus and had been WITH him. So, Paul sent for Peter. Think of that LONG voyage.

What we do know for sure is that Paul wrote to the Romans before he arrived there. Paul's first visit to Rome was as a prisoner. Under house arrest he evangelized. He makes no mention of Peter arriving, nor does he appeal to Peter as a matter of fact Paul found a very lively group of believers in Rome when he arrived.

In Peter's epistles there is no mention of being in Rome. He addresses his first epistle as follows:

1 Peter 1:

1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

2 Peter 1:

1 Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ: 2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Still no indications of Rome.

But we do get a hint of a location at some time here in 1 Peter 5:

12 By Silvanus, our faithful brother as I consider him, I have written to you briefly, exhorting and testifying that this is the true grace of God in which you stand. 13 She who is in Babylon, elect together with you, greets you; and so does Mark my son. 14 Greet one another with a kiss of love. Peace to you all who are in Christ Jesus. Amen.

The part where you said the Romans wanted someone who KNEW Jesus. Let's look at the authority as an apostle Paul states he has directly from Jesus Christ and no "flesh":

Galatians 1:

11 But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.

13 For you have heard of my former conduct in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it. 14 And I advanced in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries in my own nation, being more exceedingly zealous for the traditions of my fathers.

15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace, 16 to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately confer with flesh and blood, 17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went to Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.

18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter,[a] and remained with him fifteen days. 19 But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord’s brother. 20 (Now concerning the things which I write to you, indeed, before God, I do not lie.)

21 Afterward I went into the regions of Syria and Cilicia. 22 And I was unknown by face to the churches of Judea which were in Christ. 23 But they were hearing only, “He who formerly persecuted us now preaches the faith which he once tried to destroy.” 24 And they glorified God in me.

42 posted on 11/08/2013 2:04:23 PM PST by redleghunter
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To: cloudmountain

You are in error if you think there are 41,000 or more theologies. You can argue there are more brick and mortar “churches” out there. But brick and mortar do not make a church.


43 posted on 11/08/2013 2:12:40 PM PST by redleghunter
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To: Alex Murphy; GarySpFc; daniel1212
I guess Protestants are responsible for what Wikipedia says about Protestants, redleg. Better round up the gang, and see what sort of re-write we can come up with before the weekend!

LOL! I vote for daniel1212 and Dr. Gary to get that task:) Let's all get on PM and collaborate:) Like the other side:)

I am just a simple Evangelical educated by Jesuits (how about that one:)). If I were elected to "fix" wikipedia on "church membership" this would be the entry:

Romans 8:

8 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

44 posted on 11/08/2013 2:25:27 PM PST by redleghunter
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To: Gamecock

LOL I saw that one coming.


45 posted on 11/08/2013 2:26:28 PM PST by redleghunter
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To: Gamecock; Alex Murphy; daniel1212; GarySpFc; Greetings_Puny_Humans; Iscool; Elsie; metmom; ...

Obamacare is 2,000 pages long and we still don’t know all of what is in it.

“We have to pass the law (Obamacare) to see what is really in it.”-—Nancy Pelosi

The Roman Catholic catechism is 3,000 pages long and most Roman Catholics and priests still don’t know everything in it.

So like Obamacare, I guess you have to join the Roman Catholic Church just to find out what’s in the catechism.


46 posted on 11/08/2013 2:32:58 PM PST by redleghunter
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To: cloudmountain

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJO35zU5bXg


47 posted on 11/08/2013 2:34:31 PM PST by redleghunter
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To: FourtySeven
What is a number for how many different Christian denominations we can all agree upon?

Denominations don't mean much in regard to someone's salvation. When a person becomes saved, they become part of the body of Christ. They don't join a denomination to get saved.

48 posted on 11/08/2013 3:34:39 PM PST by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of faith....)
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To: redleghunter

“for all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God”

bingo! you nailed it. God is not the author of confusion, nor can He deceive. The Holy Spirit has been leading the Church for close to 2,000 years. He was leading it in the first century, 2nd century and every century since. So the Holy Spirit would not lead Joseph Smith in the 19th century to completely contradict what the Universal Church had taught and believed for 1,800 years up until JS came on the world scene.
Likewise, the Holy Spirit was not leading some in the 16th century when they completely contradicted what the Universal Church had taught and believed for 1,500 years up to that point on baptism and the Eucharist.
The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of truth, not confusion and the Church is the pillar of truth, not confusion.
All who are truly led by the Spirit of God heed what He said thru Paul in 1 Corinthians 10 - i appeal to you brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no dissensions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgement.

many act as if 1 Corinthians 10 says - i appeal to you brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you read the Scriptures, decide for yourselves what the Spirit is leading you to believe and then accumulate teachers to fit your own desires.

many claim to be followers of Jesus Christ, but when it really comes down to it, they are following their own desires and mind.


49 posted on 11/08/2013 4:47:00 PM PST by one Lord one faith one baptism
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To: redleghunter

I’ve seen the movie umpteen times. Great movie.


50 posted on 11/08/2013 6:39:41 PM PST by cloudmountain
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