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Cardinal Maradiaga’s Poisonous Fruit
The Catholic Thing ^ | November 19, 2013 | John Zmirak

Posted on 11/10/2013 4:46:26 PM PST by ebb tide

Vaticanologists are making much of a major speech by one of the eight cardinals the pope has designated as leaders of reform, Cardinal Oscar Rodriguez Maradiaga.

The speech is ambitious: It offers a comprehensive re-reading of the Church’s role in politics, and of the government in economics. The cardinal makes bold, sweeping assertions in a tone as confident as Karl Marx or Ayn Rand: “With the New Evangelization we restart (start anew) from the beginning: we once more become the Church as proclaimer, servant, and Samaritan.”

Does the cardinal really mean that the Church ever ceased to be these things? If so, when? And by what authority does the speaker makes this implicit attack on all his predecessors? By the experience of the Church in Latin America, where large swaths of his flock have fled to Pentecostalism?

Which popes, precisely, is he accusing here:

Too many times [the Church] gives the impression of having too much certitude and too little doubt, freedom, dissension or dialogue. No more excommunicating the world, then, or trying to solve the world’s problems by returning to authoritarianism, rigidity and moralism, but instead keeping always the message of Jesus as her sole source of inspiration.

Such grand and unsupported attacks on an institution’s past are a common rhetorical device of revolutionary movements, which demonize the past, thus gaining the power to shape the future.

Power is the point here: For all his protestations of “humility” and “service,” the cardinal imagines a Church that will have extensive political and economic power, wielded through laymen and politicians whom it can mold. In what shape political and economic principles does he hope to mold them?

Cardinal Maradiaga makes his sympathies clear when he quotes as an authority on the morality of international investment the Swiss radical Jean Ziegler – a longtime defender of Fidel Castro, who has called the United States an “imperialist dictatorship”:

The globalization of the exchange of services, capital and patents has led over the past ten years to establish a world dictatorship of finance capital. . . .The lords of financial capital wield over billions of human beings a power of life and death. Through their investment strategies, their stock market speculations, their alliances, they decide day to day who has the right to live on this planet and who is doomed to die.

Ironically, Ziegler here denounces foreign investors for threatening poor people with death; on other occasions he has condemned the United States for forbidding its citizens to do business with Cuba.

Cardinal Oscar Rodriguez Maradiaga makes a point Globalization has helped tens of millions in long-impoverished places like India and China move from grinding poverty to relative prosperity – even as wealth stagnated or shrank in Europe and North America. Talented people in developing countries are no longer doomed to subsistence agriculture or foreign-aid handouts; increasingly, they can compete against better-paid, comparatively privileged workers in richer countries. This reality is something Jean Ziegler prefers to ignore.

The Cardinal elaborates on Ziegler’s conspiracy theory, writing himself:

The effects and consequences of the neoliberal dictatorships that rule democracies are not hard to uncover: they invade us with the industry of entertainment, they make us forget about human rights, they convince us that nothing can be done, that there is no possible alternative. To change the system, it would be necessary to destroy the power of the new feudal lords. Chimerical? Utopian?

The Church decidedly bets on living the globalization of mercy and solidarity.

So democracies like ours are “neoliberal dictatorships,” which the Church will help reform through the “globalization of mercy and solidarity,” that is, by helping governments to seize wealth from some people, skim its own share off the top, and distribute that wealth to others. Those “others” will doubtless be grateful, as Hugo Chavez’s supporters were in Venezuela; indeed, they will form powerful voting blocs dependent on state redistribution of wealth, as directed by humble clergymen.

This shows no awareness of decades of research about the true causes of poverty: the lack of clear property rights, political corruption, crony capitalism, populist politics, and centralized bureaucracy. Such problems cannot be solved by foreigners, but by local action to build up a culture of enterprise and institutions that protect small business owners. But it’s much more convenient, comfortable, and conducive to grabbing power to blame everything on the Yanquis.

The good cardinal has already shown in the past his proclivity for shifting blame. In May 2002, the cardinal explained who was really to blame for the sex abuse scandal: Jews in the media.

Tiny coteries of evil investors cause starvation in the developing world, while cabals of Jewish journalists try to smear the innocent bishops. Is it all clear now? Based on Manichean, conspiratorial analyses such as these, we humble, loving “Samaritans” must reject the pharisaical Church of the past, and march forward to use the guns and prisons of the state to enforce “mercy” and “solidarity” among the classes and the nations.

In Quod Apostolici Muneris, the great Leo XIII frankly condemned socialism as a Satanic counterfeit of the Gospel. If I might be permitted to cite this pope from the Church’s compromised past:

they assail the right of property sanctioned by natural law; and by a scheme of horrible wickedness, while they seem desirous of caring for the needs and satisfying the desires of all men, they strive to seize and hold in common whatever has been acquired either by title of lawful inheritance, or by labor of brain and hands, or by thrift in one's mode of life. . . .But the boldness of these bad men, which day by day more and more threatens civil society with destruction, and strikes the souls of all with anxiety and fear, finds its cause and origin in those poisonous doctrines which, spread abroad in former times among the people, like evil seed bore in due time such fatal fruit.

We see that fruit today. And I’m not biting. Neither should you.


TOPICS: Catholic
KEYWORDS: francis; gangof8; maradiaga; socialists
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1 posted on 11/10/2013 4:46:26 PM PST by ebb tide
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To: ebb tide

I think John Zmirak is right on here. From what I’ve read of Maradiaga, he’s a “Rupturist” and a left-wing political operator,


2 posted on 11/10/2013 4:57:06 PM PST by Mrs. Don-o ("He will come on that Day to judge the living and the dead, and the world by fire.")
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To: Mrs. Don-o

If that is the case, what is Pope Francis doing having him as one of the eight Cardinal advisors?

I’m continually looking for reasons to hope this pope is simply a misunderstood saint.

I’m continually disappointing in this search.


3 posted on 11/10/2013 5:27:40 PM PST by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: Mrs. Don-o
I think John Zmirak is right on here. From what I’ve read of Maradiaga, he’s a “Rupturist” and a left-wing political operator,

And the fact he's in a position of high power is another reason I refuse to associate myself anymore with the Catholic Church.

4 posted on 11/10/2013 5:47:00 PM PST by Yossarian
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To: Brian Kopp DPM

Amen to your comments. As a Catholic, I find this Pope’s continual daily comments to be rather scary. But then I should have known as he appears to be living up to his Jesuit culture.


5 posted on 11/10/2013 5:48:17 PM PST by CdMGuy
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To: Yossarian
I refuse to associate myself anymore with the Catholic Church.

Have you also elected to distance yourself from the faith and beliefs of the Catholic Church? No matter who is appointed, promoted, or elected, even a bad pope, I would never abandon those. Totally separate in my heart and mind from "staffing decisions".

6 posted on 11/10/2013 5:51:33 PM PST by steve86 (Some things aren't really true but you Something wrong here wouldn't be half surprised if they were.)
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To: Yossarian

**I refuse to associate myself anymore with the Catholic Church. **

Why are you saying this? will you answer my question since I am a Catholic?

You can’t put all Catholics in the same bucket, just as we can’t put all Presbyterians or all Baptists in the same bucket. We are all individuals, created by God!


7 posted on 11/10/2013 5:59:48 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: steve86
Have you also elected to distance yourself from the faith and beliefs of the Catholic Church? No matter who is appointed, promoted, or elected, even a bad pope, I would never abandon those. Totally separate in my heart and mind from "staffing decisions".

I love the Catechism, I despise the vast majority of Catholics. Leadership and pewsitters alike. Liberal and conservative alike.

I see the destruction they spew on the world, and how they try to wrap it up in Jesus' name, and it makes me sick.

So, now I'm a Catechism loving Christian. The only thing I can do about the Catholic Church, other than pray about it, is vote with my feet. That seems to be the only thing they pay attention to.

8 posted on 11/10/2013 6:00:47 PM PST by Yossarian
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To: Salvation

See post 8.


9 posted on 11/10/2013 6:01:41 PM PST by Yossarian
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To: Yossarian

Your references don’t agree.

http://www.freerepublic.com/~yossarian/


10 posted on 11/10/2013 6:05:49 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation
While I don't know you, I'll guess that if you're a FReeper Catholic, you don't hold to the bizarre anti-US beliefs (trashing our current populace in favor of foreigners, and trashing the constitution as anti-Catholic) I see now taking hold by many on the "conservative" side of the Catholic fence.

However, I have to admit: among conservative Catholics, I saw a lot of public sinning, yet they felt that their devotions to various Catholic-isms (praying the rosary, saint trading cards, perpetual adoration) gave them a pass. It's like refusing to shower because you have such swell perfume.

Being unemployed this last year really opened up my eyes.

11 posted on 11/10/2013 6:06:03 PM PST by Yossarian
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To: Yossarian

All Catholic Churches have what is called a Caritas or an Emergency fund. Did you ask for help?

Also most areas have a St. Vincent de Paul Society that can help you will bills, food, medication, etc. Back when my husband died, I took advantage of both of these resources, for with my five children from 9-10, it was quite difficult at times.

There are also community food banks in most areas. If you lived close to me, I would bring you some food right now!


12 posted on 11/10/2013 6:17:37 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

Thank you, but I’m not in need that way, thank God. I had money piled up, and then a generous family.

However, I was in anguish, that’s for sure, and all I saw were holier-than-thou and supposedly conservative highly-placed in the Church Catholics that were (and still are) profiting from destroying our nation. (Even worse, many then took those profits and used them to fund religious pilgrimages.)

When I confronted them on it, they were excuse-making machines.


13 posted on 11/10/2013 6:22:04 PM PST by Yossarian
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To: Yossarian
I despise the vast majority of Catholics.

Try saying the same thing about the Jews, while you're in Germany, and see what happens.

14 posted on 11/10/2013 6:31:15 PM PST by ebb tide
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To: ebb tide

I’ve been to Auschwitz, no thank you.


15 posted on 11/10/2013 6:32:07 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Yossarian

I’m not understanding how you think the Catholic Church is profiting. They are trying to build up our faith, not the nation.

Maybe you can explain further.


16 posted on 11/10/2013 6:33:46 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation; Yossarian

I don’t recall Christ despising the vast majority of any populations whether they were ethnic, racial, or religious populations. Do you?


17 posted on 11/10/2013 6:39:31 PM PST by ebb tide
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To: Salvation
The Catholic Church is pushing hard for the immigration bill, which not only will create a huge amount of low-information Democrat party voters (hence push hard for the culture of death), but it will double the number of H1B visa slots, thus killing those of us who built up our profession in the technical or medical fields.

All this to build up their depleted population of pew sitters. The steps they are doing right now are actively destroying the country.

And never forget: the Church fought hard for Obamacare, and only backed out when they couldn't get out the immoral mandate aspects. They share blame for this whole mess, as they were active agents in building momentum for it.

18 posted on 11/10/2013 6:43:21 PM PST by Yossarian
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To: Yossarian
**The Catholic Church Some bishops are pushing hard for the immigration bill**

Please don't put the Catholic Church in the bucket for some Bishops.

BTW, are you aware that almost all the Bishops that were pushed forward by Bernardin and Jadot are retiring and have been replaced by very Orthodox and straight forward -- in line with the Church teachings? Most of the Catholics here on FR are very happy that Pope John Paul II, Pope Benedict XVI and Pope Francis are replacing there unorthodox Bishops!!!

19 posted on 11/10/2013 6:48:24 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: ebb tide
I don’t recall Christ despising the vast majority of any populations whether they were ethnic, racial, or religious populations. Do you?

I see the actions - both active and passive - of many of pewsitters in the church - as leading to anguish and destruction.

As I hate anguish and destruction, especially when it impacts both me and the ones I love, I don't look too kindly upon those doing dishing it out. I tried redirecting these people to a non-disordered way of being, but they are stubborn and keep on leaving a trail of destruction.

I see no reason to greet such people with a sickly false smile.

Those are my words, and I stand by them.

20 posted on 11/10/2013 6:51:05 PM PST by Yossarian
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To: Salvation
BTW, are you aware that almost all the Bishops that were pushed forward by Bernardin and Jadot are retiring and have been replaced by very Orthodox and straight forward -- in line with the Church teachings?

When those new Bishops show the guts to demand each parish make a clear and forthright presentation to ALL PARISHONERS about just what abortion is, including showing the bloody guts of the vile act...
...THEN I might take the claim that "they're orthodox" a lot more seriously.

Then I might come back.

21 posted on 11/10/2013 6:54:23 PM PST by Yossarian
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To: Yossarian

I see you are in California. Do you still have a liberal Bishop or do you have one of the new ones?


22 posted on 11/10/2013 6:57:19 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Yossarian
I tried redirecting these people to a non-disordered way of being,..

And what "way of being" would that be? Budhism?

23 posted on 11/10/2013 7:05:59 PM PST by ebb tide
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To: Yossarian
I see the actions - both active and passive - of many of pewsitters in the church - as leading to anguish and destruction.

Do you not think Jesus Christ saw (and sees) all that you see and much more? Yet He died on the Cross for all so that many would be saved.

Have heard of the sin of despair?

24 posted on 11/10/2013 7:13:56 PM PST by ebb tide
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To: Salvation
I see you are in California. Do you still have a liberal Bishop or do you have one of the new ones?

I'll get back to answer that tomorrow. I have an interview to prep for tonight....

25 posted on 11/10/2013 7:46:45 PM PST by Yossarian
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To: ebb tide
And what "way of being" would that be? Budhism?

No, "kind one" (ahem), I was trying to get them to not outsource jobs to Communist China, or import H1B engineers from China and India. Or be PR agents for those who did.

26 posted on 11/10/2013 7:49:45 PM PST by Yossarian
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To: Yossarian

Good luck on your interview.


27 posted on 11/10/2013 7:59:50 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Yossarian

You don’t have to like or associate with people, but don’t give up on the Sacraments. They are the path to life.


28 posted on 11/10/2013 8:07:29 PM PST by Unam Sanctam
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To: ebb tide; TNMountainMan; alphadog; infool7; Heart-Rest; HoosierDammit; red irish; fastrock; ...
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of general interest.

29 posted on 11/10/2013 8:45:56 PM PST by narses (... unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.)
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To: Yossarian
Then I might come back.

Does the church belong to now have any sinners sitting in the pews? Have the ministers of that church ever committed a sin?

30 posted on 11/11/2013 2:44:24 AM PST by verga (We used to be the land of the free. Now weÂ’re just the land of the freebie.)
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To: Yossarian
And the fact he's in a position of high power is another reason I refuse to associate myself anymore with the Catholic Church.

ALL religions can be perverted because they were devised/created by Men and not always as a product of the same Divine Inspiration as the Apostles were affected by.

Being made by Men, no matter how noble the intentions, I hold that religion in itself is sinful as it imposes its own form of The Law on the adherents despite the fact that trying to follow the Law is clearly being in a state of Fallen from Grace.

That said, the Catholic religion has probably done more to save souls than any other Christian religion (despite the long-term Latin Masses which left many of us in the dark - we knew the proper responses during Mass, but had no idea of what the priest or we ourselves were actually saying. I choose to be non-denominational because the Bible is the message and the New Covenant and Christs Love is the meat of the message - no thrills, no frills, just the Good News of Salvation and being justified by His Love vs. having to follow a bunch of Pharisee-type rituals which make one feel good about oneself, but serve no true purpose. No matter the topic of the day, my pastor always insures that Jesus is up front and center and His Love of us and our love of Him is what it's all about.

31 posted on 11/11/2013 4:47:37 AM PST by trebb (Where in the the hell has my country gone?)
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To: Yossarian
I love the Catechism, I despise the vast majority of Catholics

Yuk. Aliens wrote the Catechism?

32 posted on 11/11/2013 5:35:44 AM PST by annalex (fear them not)
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To: trebb
No matter the topic of the day, my pastor always insures that Jesus is up front and center and His Love of us and our love of Him is what it's all about.

Hallelujah! Praise God. I'm blessed to attend a church where my pastor does the same.

33 posted on 11/11/2013 6:21:05 AM PST by 2nd amendment mama ( www.2asisters.org | Self defense is a basic human right!)
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To: Yossarian

Then you’ve been out of the Church since Judas Iscarot? Picked, chosen by that erratic Jesus to be one of His right-hand men!


34 posted on 11/11/2013 6:45:10 AM PST by Mrs. Don-o ("Ubi Petram, Ibi Ecclesiam.")
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To: Yossarian
"Vote with your feet"--- and what makes you think anyone's paying attention to that? Don't flatter yourself.

You do seem to have the Pharisee's Prayer down pretty good. Always good to be Scriptural, I guess.

35 posted on 11/11/2013 6:47:33 AM PST by Mrs. Don-o ("Ubi Petram, Ibi Ecclesiam.")
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To: Yossarian
Reminds me of an old husband-and-wife joke:

Harry: I ain't goin' to your church, Betty. Your church is full of hypocrites.

Betty: Oh, come on. There's always room for one more.

36 posted on 11/11/2013 6:51:35 AM PST by Mrs. Don-o ("Ubi Petram, Ibi Ecclesiam.")
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To: Yossarian
If that's it --- the immigration/Obamacare fracas-- then you should give it another think. These are infuriating USCCB policies, but they are not Catholic Faith and Morals.

Christ founded the Catholic Church to be His instrument for the redemption of the world. The best agents for spreading the fruits of salvation are not necessarily the priests or even the bishops, but the saints.

All of whom lived in times such as ours, or worse. Much worse.

Do not confuse the Apostolic Hierarchy wth the Clerical Bureaucracy.

Tagline.

37 posted on 11/11/2013 6:57:54 AM PST by Mrs. Don-o (USCCB Delenda Est.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
"Vote with your feet"--- and what makes you think anyone's paying attention to that? Don't flatter yourself.

And therein lies a great problem. At my church, if someone isn't there for a couple of weeks, they receive a call from someone asking them if everything is okay. What you're saying is that if someone leaves the Catholic church no one will notice or care! That's pretty pathetic!

38 posted on 11/11/2013 6:58:40 AM PST by 2nd amendment mama ( www.2asisters.org | Self defense is a basic human right!)
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To: 2nd amendment mama
Your parish sounds admirable in that respect. I'm guessing it must be pretty small.

My parish has 1200 families spread out over 4 weekend Masses, sometimes 5. How would anybody know if you had gone to the 5:00 p.m. Vigil Mass, or the 8:00, or the 10:00, or the 12:00 --- or the Latin Mass when we have it (twice a month)?

A small congregation is wonderful because it can be close-knit. Our daily Mass mini-congregations are like that: if Arlene misses the 7:00 a.m. Mass Monday and Tuesday, she'll get 3 or 4 phone calls or e-mails before Thursday wondering what's up! A big congregation, though, there's no way they could keep track of each parishioner's comings and goings unless you were open to fairly intrusive surveillance.

39 posted on 11/11/2013 7:05:54 AM PST by Mrs. Don-o (USCCB Delenda Est.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
So....what you're saying is no one gives a d##n if people don't go to your church with the exception of their donations? They don't notice if someone's missing because they might be ill? Missing for other reasons? That's not a church community. That's big business!

At my church, we live life together and we are all encouraged to serve our church community. Yes, it is small. And no, it isn't a parish because I'm no longer attending the Catholic church. I attend a church that ACTUALLY CARES, whether I'm there or not. I'm not just another "butt in the pew" number to be counted or "weekly envelope in the basket".

40 posted on 11/11/2013 7:21:13 AM PST by 2nd amendment mama ( www.2asisters.org | Self defense is a basic human right!)
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To: 2nd amendment mama
"So....what you're saying is no one gives a d##n if people don't go to your church with the exception of their donations? They don't notice if someone's missing because they might be ill? Missing for other reasons? That's not a church community. That's big business!"

Actually, it's not that "nobody gives a d##n". It's that in many Catholic parishes, the real community or fellowship comes from the various movements, ministries, and organizations within the parish, and not the parish itself per see.

For instance, I mentioned the daily Mass group: about 15 of us that are together every day for the 7:00 Mass, maybe 25 for the 8:30 Mass. With those kinds of numbers you can know each other and ... like I said ... if Arlene missed Mon and Tues, by Wed everybody knows if she had a cold or if her husband's in the hospital or if she's downstate visiting her grandkids.

But there's 36 other ministries/organizations listed in the bulletin with which parishioners are encouraged to get involved: RCIA (adult converts' class); 4 different Bible Studies; 5 different choirs; Engaged Encounter; Marriage Encounter; Home & School Organization; Parish Council; Parish Finance Board; Bereavement Ministry; Council of Catholic Women; Knights of Columbus; Newcomers Welcoming; Respect Life Committee; Community Gardens; Widows' and Widowers' Ministry; Food Pantry; St. Vincent de Paul Society (aid to the needy);Adoration Chapel; Cursillo; Rosary Makers; Liturgy of the Hours; etc. etc.

At least at our parish, there's no pressure, hassle or exclusion over donations. If somebody says "We're unemployed but I volunteer with training the Altar Servers and my wife is a Visitor/Eucharistic Minister for the the shut-ins and the nursing home people"-- nobody's going to say Boo to you about there being no money for the basket.

But if people just come to Sunday Mass and that's it, they can go a long time before anybody takes notice of them. If people feel bummed out about that, I always urge them to puh-lease get involved in a movement of ministry. People need small groups. Even Our Lord thought 12 was a pretty good number.

41 posted on 11/11/2013 9:32:26 AM PST by Mrs. Don-o ("They help each other and say to their companions, 'Be strong!' " — Isaiah 41:6)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

People need small groups. Even Our Lord thought 12 was a pretty good number
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Good point! :-)

Nice post.


42 posted on 11/11/2013 9:36:03 AM PST by wintertime
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To: Unam Sanctam; Yossarian
You don’t have to like or associate with people, but don’t give up on the Sacraments. They are the path to life.
Yes, precisely! The Eucharist is needed for power, understanding, patience, and love.
43 posted on 11/11/2013 10:56:46 AM PST by mlizzy ("If people spent an hour a week in Eucharistic Adoration, abortion would be ended." --Mother Teresa)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

“But there’s 36 other ministries/organizations listed in the bulletin with which parishioners are encouraged to get involved: RCIA (adult converts’ class); 4 different Bible Studies; 5 different choirs; Engaged Encounter; Marriage Encounter; Home & School Organization; Parish Council; Parish Finance Board; Bereavement Ministry; Council of Catholic Women; Knights of Columbus; Newcomers Welcoming; Respect Life Committee; Community Gardens; Widows’ and Widowers’ Ministry; Food Pantry; St. Vincent de Paul Society (aid to the needy);Adoration Chapel; Cursillo; Rosary Makers; Liturgy of the Hours; etc. etc.”

Maybe that has something to do with the Church’s refusal to baptise my grandson until his parents attend some classes.


44 posted on 11/11/2013 11:24:41 AM PST by dsc (Any attempt to move a government to the left is a crime against humanity.)
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To: dsc
I know a husband-wife team who worked for 25 years at the parish and diocesan level in a big diocese in Texas on adult religious education. They were frustrated because no matter how good an educational program was, only the predictable faithful 2-5% of the parishioners would attend: the same ones for everything.

They've become convinced that the best time to fortify adults' knowledge and understanding of Catholic faith and morals, would in conjunction with sacramental preparation for themselves or their children:

Isn't there a pastorally effective way to do this?

People who are serious about a job or profession accept the need for regular updating of skills, in-service training, and a duty to enhance one's fund of knowledge and understanding. Should we expect less for the Catholic Life?

I'm thinking of Our Lord's warmly and winsomely inviting words to the effect that unless you're willing to renounce father, mother, wife, husband, children, friends, property, and life itself, and take up your cross, you are not worthy to be His disciple.

What an extremist.

And did it "work"?

45 posted on 11/11/2013 11:45:45 AM PST by Mrs. Don-o ("They help each other and say to their companions, 'Be strong!'" - Isaiah 41:6)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

“They’ve become convinced that the best time to fortify adults’ knowledge and understanding of Catholic faith and morals, would in conjunction with sacramental preparation for themselves or their children”

They’ve become convinced...I guess that’s what honks me off. My grandson isn’t baptised because “they’ve become convinced.” Who in Hell are they to deny an infant the sacrament?


46 posted on 11/11/2013 11:58:35 AM PST by dsc (Any attempt to move a government to the left is a crime against humanity.)
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To: Brian Kopp DPM; ebb tide

I find it fascinating how this thread is more about the dumbass comments made by one poster than the real issue in the OP.

I would like to hear the answer to your question Dr. Brian. It’s much easier to avoid the real issue here though.


47 posted on 11/11/2013 1:48:08 PM PST by piusv
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To: Mrs. Don-o

I meant “they” in the abstract. I was not referring to your friends, who, of course, have nothing to do with my problem.


48 posted on 11/11/2013 1:48:34 PM PST by dsc (Any attempt to move a government to the left is a crime against humanity.)
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To: dsc
Of course, I don't know anything about your grandson's circumstances. But it's a situation which required real pastoral sensitivity. On the one hand, Catholic parents have not just the right, but the obligation to have their newborn Baptized, and that should be reasonably soon after birth. On the other hand, the Church baptizes infants entirely contingent on the assumption that the parents are ready, willing, and able to raise him as a Catholic.

The problem, in some cases,is that parents who are ignorant of, or more or less indifferent to the Faith, are having their kids baptized merely as a social convention. They don't have adequate knowledge of the faith and morals of the Church to really be responsible for the child's early spiritual formation; in fact, they hardly know what Baptism is as a Sacrament, what it signifies or what obligations they have assumed in consequence.

So the pastor has to try to ensure that the parents are knowledgeable about what the Baptismal vows entail, just as he has to try to ensure that engaged couples are knowledgeable about what the Marriage vows entail.

Can you blame the pastor for trying to conscientiously fulfill his obligation to teach as well as sanctify?

And the parents: wouldn't they want to broaden and deepen their knowledge of these essential Catholic Truths?

49 posted on 11/11/2013 3:04:10 PM PST by Mrs. Don-o ("They help each other and say to their companions, 'Be strong!'" - Isaiah 41:6)
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To: Mrs. Don-o; dsc
I'm with you, dsc. From the Catholic Catechism:

The Church and the parents would deny a child the priceless grace of becoming a child of God were they not to confer Baptism shortly after birth.

50 posted on 11/11/2013 6:13:04 PM PST by ebb tide
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