A Roman Catholic scholar and former philosophy and religion professor has released a new book that defends Mormonism as "one of the youngest branches on the Christian tree," and claims that Christians can learn from the Mormon religion.

"Traditional theology teaches that matter is lifeless, without the soul it's just dead weight," Webb explained. But this view is not inherent in the Christian faith, he argued, "it took a long time until Christians started accepting this idea of matter."

Furthermore, with the discoveries of modern physics, Webb encourages Christians to accept a more lively, spiritual view of matter.

"Matter has something of the divine in it," he argued. "Matter can be elevated, it can transcend its own state."

Webb also claims that this concept is not pantheistic, but lies at the heart of Roman Catholicism, with the idea of transubstantiation, where the bread and wine become the body and blood of Jesus Christ.

Lynn Wilder, former Brigham Young University professor and author of Unveiling Grace: The Story of How We Found Our Way Out of the Mormon Church, told CP that "Webb's position on Mormon teachings is corroborated in Mormon scripture where God the Father has a body of flesh and bone (D&C 130:22) as does Jesus, and that all spirit -- even their Holy Ghost -- is matter (D&C 131:7-8)."

Wilder added, however, that this belief "is what makes Mormonism polytheistic instead of monotheistic."

"In Mormonism," Wilder explained, "each God consists of matter and is separate from the others," as opposed to united in the Christian Trinity of Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

"Since a worthy priesthood-holding, temple-attending Mormon male can eventually work his way to godhood like all three members of the Mormon godhood did, according to LDS teachings, there could be millions of gods with material bodies," she added.

Wilder also emphasized that Mormons do not believe God created the universe ex nihilo, or out of nothing, citing Psalms 32 as the basis for this doctrine.

The Church of Latter-day Saints, she explained, teaches that the gods "reorganized matter that already existed (Pearl of Great Price, Book of Abraham 4:1)."

Webb, however, defended the Church of Latter-day Saints as a branch of Christianity.

"To me, Mormons should be grouped with all the other Protestant denominations in terms of how the Catholic Church sees them," as 'separated brethren,' he explained.

Webb also lamented the Roman Catholic Church's decision -- which he called "recent" -- to not accept the baptism of Mormons. "I think that's a very unfortunate decision," he said.

"Mormons are closer to Catholics than most Protestants," Webb added, noting that they "love the ritual, love the history, family, traditional values."

He expressed annoyance at the common Evangelical dismissal of Roman Catholic and Mormon churches in that they "don't feel Jesus there." Mormons and Catholics "don't have a born again experience," but believe that faith involves "gradual, deeper immersion in scripture and tradition," he explained.

Providing an opposing view, Wilder dismissed these arguments, emphasizing the fact that Mormons do not follow the Bible alone.

"Mormons believe that Christ's church fell away after the original apostles died, so the Catholic Church is not true," she argued. "The true church was not restored until Joseph Smith, so although Webb would say they are brothers, Mormon doctrine teaches otherwise."

Wilder also acknowledged that Mormons have communion, but emphasized that they use "leavened bread and water, not fruit of the vine or unleavened bread." In short, "the Mormon Jesus teaches a different way to be saved so [He] is not the biblical Jesus."

She also claimed to know the Church of Latter-day Saints more intimately than Webb, noting her experience at Brigham Young University and her husband's experience in the temple.

The author of Mormon Christianity "would not know the deep doctrines of Mormonism that are taught in the temple or in the various priesthood classes for members," she alleged.

While it is fine that you believe this way, there is a very significant number of people who believe that without linage there is no authority and they have plenty of good reasons for their beliefs. It is all about beliefs. Most Catholics would not agree with you.

What does it matter if they agree with me???

Let them wrestle with the two texts I cited -- 1 Peter 2:4-9 & Rev. 1:5-6.

God isn't going to hold them accountable as to whether or not to agree with me; I am not Lord of their lives.

However, He will hold them accountable if they take an eraser to those passages; clip them out; and live as if they don't exist.

The Scriptures are not authority, there are a number of different translations and versions and interpretations that make it impossible to settle many questions.

You know we're awfully glad that Jesus didn't take your same sorry attitude toward the Old Testament as you do toward the Bible...and here -- to strengthen the NEW Testament even more are His very words strewn all about & thruout it!!! (Gospels; Acts; Revelation)

I don't ever find Jesus using this sorry excuse about the Old Testament that you use: "Oh, there's different OT interpretations...and there's the Septuagint vs. the Tanahk..." Not at all. He quoted it constantly. Before referencing a passage, He would ask, "Have you not read...?" or He would say, "You have heard it said..."

The apostle Paul did the same thing in Acts 17:11 by commending the Bereans as "noble" because they took the new revelations and compared them to the existing ones (the OT) to see if they were so.

Paul didn't say to them, "Oh, yeah...you don't have a way of confirming what I'm saying 'cause the Prophets and the Psalms and the wisdom books and the Pentateuch are unreliable."

...if as you say all believers in Christ have the priesthood then the Mormons have it too because they certainly believe in Christ.

Why do you assume every "Christ" identity out there is the same or is THE genuine article?

Are you so easily fooled as a world traveler whenever a street peddler offers you a high-end brand-name watch? Are you that dupe-able?

Jesus said: "4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many." (Matthew 24:4-5)

To hear you tell it, every false Messiah group that comes along -- the ones Jesus references here -- would somehow be "Messianic" (Christian) -- just because they believe in a "Messiah" with symbolism attached to the Christ of the Bible.

The "Christ" of the Marharishi of Transcendental Meditation is a Jesus who never suffered -- at odds with the cross.
The "Christ" of Guru Maharaj Ji supposedly merged with Krishna, Ram and Buddha -- at odds with the uniqueness of Jesus.
The only difference between the Moonie "christ" and the rest of us, said, Sun Myung Moon, is that Jesus had no original sin nature.
The "christ" of Christian Science think of themselves as "Christian," yet they don't believe Jesus is God.
The "christ" of the Jehovah's Witnesses is not Almighty and is "a god," but not "THE" God; nor did He bodily resurrect.
The "christ" of many gnostics would in no way incarnate a human body -- because that to them would be too "corrupt" of a thing to do.
The "christ" of Brigham Young was one redeemer-savior among who knows how many? "He was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. On every earth. How many earths are there?...Consequently every earth has its redeemer..." Brigham told us (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 14, p. 71, 1870) [Not exactly a "unique" redeemer among a slew full of them!]
The "christ" of Mormonism is a pre-existent spirit-creature; a son of a God-man whose next-in-line brother is "Lucifer/Satan" -- a "Jesus" who had to work out his own salvation; and whose blood didn't cover all of our personal sins (thereby rendering him as an incomplete, inadequate "savior").

Can somebody tell us: How can all these "christs" be one-in-the-same?

Can you answer that, JA???

Are you that easily duped?

Would you believe EVERY CHARACTER wanting to buy your used car (or house) with cash that looks a little fishy?

While it is fine that you believe this way, there is a very significant number of people who believe that

without linage there is no authority
and they have plenty of good reasons for their beliefs. It is all about beliefs. Most Catholics would not agree with you. [JAKraig]

Let's take this "lineage" matter you brought up and apply it to the Mormons -- and Mormon "scripture", shall we?

I have two specific verses from the Mormon "Doctrine & Covenants in mind:
* 8 Therefore, thus saith the Lord unto you, with whom the priesthood hath continued through the lineage of your fathers— 9 For ye are lawful heirs, according to the flesh... (D&C 86:8-9)
* Previous to that, Joseph Smith prophesied Sept. 22-23, 1832:
14 Which Abraham received the priesthood from Melchizedek, who received it through the lineage of his fathers, even till Noah;

OK, class, let me interrupt D&C 84:14-18 by asking which priesthood is referenced here -- the Melchizedek or the Aaron? (Answer? Melchizedek...so keep that in mind as you read vv. 15-18)

Cont'd: 15 And from Noah till Enoch, through the lineage of their fathers; 16 And from Enoch to Abel, who was slain by the conspiracy of his brother, who received the priesthood by the commandments of God, by the hand of his father Adam, who was the first man—which priesthood CONTINUETH IN THE CHURCH OF GOD in ALL GENERATIONS, and is WITHOUT BEGINNING OF DAYS OR END OF YEARS. And the Lord confirmed a priesthood also upon Aaron and his seed, THROUGHOUT ALL GENERATIONS, WHICH PRIESTHOOD ALSO CONTINUETH FOREVER WITH THE PRIESTHOOD which is after the holiest order of God.” (D&C 84:17-18)

So what are we to conclude here? Several things:

Per Joseph Smith...
#1...Past tense: this priesthood lineage the Mormons picked up in the early 1830s came thru fathers who weren't Mormon! (D&C 86:8-9)

#2...Past tense: ...this Melchizedek priesthood has continued in the church of God -- all generations! (D&C 84:17) Meaning there was no complete apostasy! Ever! And, btw, that lines up quite nicely with what the apostle Paul said in Ephesians 3:21 -- that there would ”be glory IN THE CHURCH and in Christ Jesus THROUGHOUT ALL GENERATIONS, FOR EVER AND EVER! Amen.”

God was glorified in the church via ALL generations!!

#3...Past AND present & future tense: this Melchizedek priesthood NEVER underwent complete apostasy...as the Mormons claim elsewhere...for "it continueth forever" (D&C 84:18)

Now...how do the Mormon leaders deal with these four verses?

Well, the hefty 500-page D&C Student Manual curricula the Lds church puts out...is a running commentary on that book.

With D&C 84:14-18, it's QUITE STRANGE!

First, they simply ignore commenting on D&C 84:17-18 completely! However, they do comment thru it indirectly with this reference to D&C 84:19-28: ..."he took the Melchizedek Priesthood, which administers the gospel, out of their midst in the sense that it did NOT continue and pass one from priesthood holder to another in the normal and usual sense of the word."

Say what?

A "normal and usual sense" of the phrasing of those verses said the priesthood DID continue forever in God's church in all generations. Yet they somehow claim it didn't -- and that vv. 17-18 are be simply glossed over!

With D&C 86:8-9, here's how they tried to explain that away:
"'Oh', I can hear some of you say, 'there must be something wrong with that statement, for I am the only member of my family who has joined the Church. How could I have received the priesthood from my parents? In this scripture the Lord was not talking about your priesthood line of authority. He was talking about your inherited right to receive and use priesthood power...This means we receive a right to priesthood blessings from our blood ancestry." (pp. 191-192)

Just wow! Here, Catholics when they talk about continuing the priesthood authority they talk about a handed-down spiritual authority. And here Mormons usually talk the same way -- even as they say it "skipped" 1800 years!

And here they take plain language of "priesthood" "inherit" and "lineage" -- and say, well, it wasn't meant that way. It was NON-priests and priests alike -- your PARENTS -- who "eligiblized" to eventually receive that priesthood?

What?

This is what you get in a cartwheel jumping church! herefore, either Mormons are internally lying/covering up that they believe Smith is a false prophet, or more likely, they believe Smith was telling the truth in D&C 84:17-18; 86:8...which means they believe that the priesthood was rec'd via "the lineage of their fathers" (86:8) and this was a continuous priesthood passed down "throughout all generations" (84:17-18) – and therefore are in grave error that there was EVER a universal apostasy.

Scholar gets schooled!!

Mormonism is not Christianity. FYI -->

Christian churches teach belief in God as an eternal, self-existent, immortal being, unfettered by corporeal limitations and unchanging in both character and nature. In recent years, several Christian denominations have made studies of Mormon teaching and come to the conclusion that there are irreconcilable differences between LDS doctrine and Christian beliefs based on the Bible.

Statement of the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod
Statement of the Presbyterian Church (USA)
Statement of the Roman Catholic Church
Statement of the Southern Baptist Convention
Statement of the United Methodist Church
Statement of the Assemblies of God Church

Some Mormons undoubtedly become Christians, and evidently leave the Mormon sect they were members of behind.

(Thanks to delacort for compiling this list)

We definitely should celebrate our commonalities rather than rail against our differences.

Sorry, Ecumentalist; but the DIFFERENCES are the things that are DAMNING.

Or have you FORGOTTEN what your past LEADERS have said??

Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).

Joseph Smith: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).

Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).

Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).

Orson Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses

, vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses , 18:172).

President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses , 10:127).

James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).

President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).

More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).

President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).

President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 2, p.196).

Doctrine and Covenants

Oh boy! You've broken the ice!!

Learning alert!!

The Doctrine and Covenants

Section 132

Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Nauvoo, Illinois, recorded 12 July 1843, relating to the new and everlasting covenant, including the eternity of the marriage covenant, and also the plurality of wives (see History of the Church, 5:501–7). Although the revelation was recorded in 1843, it is evident from the historical records that the doctrines and principles involved in this revelation had been known by the Prophet since 1831.

1–6, Exaltation is gained through the new and everlasting covenant; 7–14, The terms and conditions of that covenant are set forth; 15–20, Celestial marriage and a continuation of the family unit enable men to become gods; 21–25, The strait and narrow way leads to eternal lives; 26–27, The law is given relative to blasphemy against the Holy Ghost; 28–39, Promises of eternal increase and exaltation are made to prophets and Saints in all ages; 40–47, Joseph Smith is given the power to bind and seal on earth and in heaven; 48–50, The Lord seals upon him his exaltation; 51–57, Emma Smith is counseled to be faithful and true; 58–66, Laws governing the plurality of wives are set forth.

16Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in ^amarriage; but are appointed angels in ^bheaven, which angels are ministering ^cservants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.

17For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are ^aangels of God forever and ever.

18And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife, and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity, if that ^acovenant is not by me or by my word, which is my law, and is not sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, through him whom I have anointed and appointed unto this power, then it is not valid neither of force when they are out of the world, because they are not joined by me, saith the Lord, neither by my word; when they are out of the world it cannot be received there, because the angels and the gods are appointed there, by whom they cannot pass; they cannot, therefore, inherit my glory; for my house is a house of order, saith the Lord God.

19And again, verily I say unto you, if a man ^amarry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and ^beverlasting covenant, and it is ^csealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of ^dpromise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the ^ekeys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit ^fthrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s ^gBook of Life, that he shall commit no ^hmurder whereby to shed innocent ⁱblood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their ^jexaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the ^kseeds forever and ever.

20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from ^aeverlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be ^bgods, because they have ^call power, and the angels are subject unto them.

21Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my ^alaw ye cannot attain to this glory.

22For ^astrait is the gate, and narrow the ^bway that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the ^clives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me.

23But if ye receive me in the world, then shall ye know me, and shall receive your exaltation; that ^awhere I am ye shall be also.

24This is ^aeternal lives—to ^bknow the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath ^csent. I am he. Receive ye, therefore, my law.

25^aBroad is the gate, and wide the way that leadeth to the ^bdeaths; and many there are that go in thereat, because they ^creceive me not, neither do they abide in my law.

Yes, their creeds are all wrong,

HMMMmmm...

Could you please point out the ERROR that your church claims is here?

Nicene Creed

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

Who, for us men for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father [and the Son]; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.

And I believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

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