Peter is REALLY Satan
Pharisees are REALLY serpents
Mary REALLY did have another son - John
Samaritans are REALLY dogs
Skip to comments.Swimming the Tiber?
Posted on 11/19/2013 6:10:28 AM PST by Gamecock
The Roman Catholic Church poses several attractions for evangelical Christians. Whether their motivation is Romes apparent unifying power, its claims to be semper idem (always the same), its so-called historical pedigree, its ornate liturgy, or the belief that only Rome can withstand the onslaught of liberalism and postmodernism, a number of evangelicals have given up their protest and made the metaphorical trek across Romes Tiber River into the Roman Catholic Church.
Historically, particularly during the Reformation and post-Reformation periods, those who defected back to Rome typically did so out of intense social, political, and ecclesiastical pressuresometimes even to save themselves from dying for their Protestant beliefs. But today, those who move to Rome are not under that same type of pressure. Thus, we are faced with the haunting reality that people are (apparently) freely moving to Rome.
In understanding why evangelicals turn to Catholicism, we must confess that churches today in the Protestant tradition have much for which to answer. Many evangelical churches today are, practically speaking, dog-and-pony shows. Not only has reverence for a thrice holy God disappeared in our worship, but even the very truths that make us Protestant, truths for which people have died, such as justification by faith alone, have been jettisoned for pithy epithets that would not seem out of place in a Roman Catholic Mass or, indeed, a Jewish synagogue. Our polemics against Rome will be of any lasting value only when Protestant churches return to a vibrant confessional theology, rooted in ongoing exegetical reflection, so that we have something positive to say and practice alongside our very serious objections to Roman Catholic theology.
The attractions of Rome are, however, dubious when closely examined. For example, after the Second Vatican Council (19621965), the Catholic Church lost not only the claim to be always the same but also its claim to be theologically conservative. Besides the great number of changes that took place at Vatican II (for example, the institution of the vernacular Mass), the documents embraced mutually incompatible theologies. Perhaps the most remarkable change that took place in Rome was its view of salvation outside of the church, which amounts to a form of universalism: Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience (Lumen Gentium 16; hereafter LG). Protestants, who were condemned at the Council of Trent (15451563), were now referred to as separated fellow Christians (Unitatis Redintegratio 4). Once (and still?) anathematized Protestants are now Christians? This is a contradiction. But even worse, present-day Roman Catholic theologians candidly admit that those who try to be good possess divine, saving grace, even if they do not explicitly trust in Christ.
Such a view of salvation is really the consistent outworking of Romes position on justification. So, while the Roman Catholic Church can no longer claim to be always the same or theologically conservative, she still holds a view of justification that is antithetical to the classical Protestant view that we are justified by faith alone. Whatever pretended gains one receives from moving to Rome, one thing he most certainly does not receivein fact, he loses it altogetheris the assurance of faith (Council of Trent 6.9; hereafter CT). It is little wonder that the brilliant Catholic theologian Robert Bellarmine (15421621) once remarked that assurance was the greatest Protestant heresy. If, as Rome maintains, the meritorious cause of justification is our inherent righteousness, then assurance is impossible until the verdict is rendered. For Protestants, that verdict is a present reality; the righteousness of Christ imputed to us is the sole meritorious cause of our entrance into eternal life. But for Roman Catholicsand those outside of the church who do goodinherent righteousness is a part of their justification before God (CT 6.7).
The Reformation doctrine of justification was not something about which Protestant theologians could afford to be tentative. At stake is not only the question of how a sinner stands accepted before God and, in connection with that, how he is assured of salvation (1 John 5:13), but also the goodness of God toward His people.
In the end, our controversy with Rome is important because Christ is important. Christ alonenot He and Mary (LG 62)intercedes between us and the Father; Christ alonenot the pope (LG 22)is the head of the church and, thus, the supreme judge of our consciences; Christ alonenot pagan dictates of conscience (LG 16)must be the object of faith for salvation; and Christs righteousness alonenot ours (LG 40)is the only hope we have for standing before a God who is both just and the Justifier of the wicked. To move to Rome is not only to give up justification and, thus, assurance even more so, it is to give up Christ.
Security of the believer
John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
John 10:25-30 Jesus answered them, I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.
Ephesians 1:13-14 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Colossians 1:13-14 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
Colossians 3:3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
2 Corinthians 1:21-22 And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
2 Corinthians 5:4-8 For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdenednot that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
Too many brethren joining the Catholic Church - eh?
Hardly. Too many Roman Catholics high fiving when one does.
If they leave they never were one of us. Besides, numbers don’t prove the truth. The path is narrow after all.
I don’t understand anybody who swims the Tiber for reasons other than theological and ecclesiological, unless he had a vision or somesuch.
So, that is the problem you have with this?
Rome maintains nothing of the sort. Why do you guys have to keep making up nonsense like this?
The meritorious cause of our justification is the righteousness of Jesus Christ. I'm going to say that again, louder.
The meritorious cause of our justification is the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF JESUS CHRIST !
The effect of our justification is that that righteousness is truly communicated to us and inhabits our soul, it is not merely "imputed" to our "account" as some sort of legal fiction, as Luther wrongly taught.
Anyone who is seeking to be justified by his own "inherent righteousness" (what is that?) will be damned.
It's one thing to object to what Catholicism actually teaches, but to slander us with strawman garbage like this is really inexcusable.
The Most Reverend David R. Choby
Bishop of Nashville
The Catholic Center
2400 Twenty-first Avenue South
Nashville, TN. 37212
I'll PM you my name and parish, and you can write a letter to the bishop explaining my "heresy" in the preceding post.
I would say he'd laugh in your face, but he's too nice a man for that.
Not so. For my wife and me, our Tiber swim took place 19 years ago to be with Him, not give Him up. The author cites two of the four classic Protestant barriers to Rome; the role of Mary and the authority of the pope. Those two, along with the role of the saints and the meaning of the Eucharist, are the primary obstacles. But once the last of these, the meaning of the Eucharist, was literally understood in terms of John Chapter 6, the swim became a necessity. It was no longer an option to stay with the "dog and pony show". We had to be with Jesus.
Jesus answered, The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.
Also love Bob Dylan's version of v. 28:
Do you ever wonder just what God requires?
You think He's just an errand boy to satisfy your wandering desires?
When you gonna wake up, when you gonna wake up, when you gonna wake up and strengthen the things that remain?
"When You Gonna Wake Up?, Slow Train Comin' album, 1978
Believe Him by saying He lied web He said, "This is my body", lied when He told the thief on the cross, "Today you will be with me in Paradise", and sent the Holy Spirit to guide us but didn't give the Holy Spirit power to protect His Word from the inclusion of error.
If someone believes Christ they don't preach and teach doctrines that are only correct if Christ is a liar.
He also said...
Get thee behind me SATAN.
"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?
"First let the children eat all they want," he told her, "for it is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."
You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred?
When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to her, Woman, here is your son, 27 and to the disciple, Here is your mother. From that time on, this disciple took her into his home.
Then it follows logically that...
Peter is REALLY Satan
I copied and pasted from the article. Those were not my words. I didn’t make anything up.
You mean like the Bible teaches?
What? Paul was wrong as well?
Paul teaches grace without merit and imputed righteousness without merit.
We can't do anything to earn, or merit, if you will, the righteousness God offers us as a free gift by grace through faith in Christ.
Gifts are NOT earned.
Colossians 2:13-14 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.
Romans 4:1-25 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.
Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.
Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.
For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.
That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspringnot only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, as it is written, I have made you the father of many nationsin the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist.
In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations, as he had been told, So shall your offspring be. He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah's womb. No unbelief made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised.
That is why his faith was counted to him as righteousness. But the words it was counted to him were not written for his sake alone, but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.
How do you reconcile the teaching of the Catholic church that the flesh gives life in light of Jesus comment in John 6 that It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
The SPIRIT gives life.
The flesh is no help at all.
So what, according to Catholicism, gives life? The Spirit, like Jesus said, or the flesh like the RCC says?