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Swimming the Tiber?
The Aquila Report ^ | November 20, 2012 | Mark Jones

Posted on 11/19/2013 6:10:28 AM PST by Gamecock

The Roman Catholic Church poses several attractions for evangelical Christians. Whether their motivation is Rome’s apparent unifying power, its claims to be semper idem (“always the same”), its so-called historical pedigree, its ornate liturgy, or the belief that only Rome can withstand the onslaught of liberalism and postmodernism, a number of evangelicals have given up their “protest” and made the metaphorical trek across Rome’s Tiber River into the Roman Catholic Church.

Historically, particularly during the Reformation and post-Reformation periods, those who defected back to Rome typically did so out of intense social, political, and ecclesiastical pressure—sometimes even to save themselves from dying for their Protestant beliefs. But today, those who move to Rome are not under that same type of pressure. Thus, we are faced with the haunting reality that people are (apparently) freely moving to Rome.

In understanding why evangelicals turn to Catholicism, we must confess that churches today in the Protestant tradition have much for which to answer. Many evangelical churches today are, practically speaking, dog-and-pony shows. Not only has reverence for a thrice holy God disappeared in our worship, but even the very truths that make us Protestant, truths for which people have died, such as justification by faith alone, have been jettisoned for pithy epithets that would not seem out of place in a Roman Catholic Mass or, indeed, a Jewish synagogue. Our polemics against Rome will be of any lasting value only when Protestant churches return to a vibrant confessional theology, rooted in ongoing exegetical reflection, so that we have something positive to say and practice alongside our very serious objections to Roman Catholic theology.

The attractions of Rome are, however, dubious when closely examined. For example, after the Second Vatican Council (1962–1965), the Catholic Church lost not only the claim to be “always the same” but also its claim to be theologically conservative. Besides the great number of changes that took place at Vatican II (for example, the institution of the vernacular Mass), the documents embraced mutually incompatible theologies. Perhaps the most remarkable change that took place in Rome was its view of salvation outside of the church, which amounts to a form of universalism: “Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience” (Lumen Gentium 16; hereafter LG). Protestants, who were condemned at the Council of Trent (1545–1563), were now referred to as “separated fellow Christians” (Unitatis Redintegratio 4). Once (and still?) anathematized Protestants are now Christians? This is a contradiction. But even worse, present-day Roman Catholic theologians candidly admit that those who try to be good possess divine, saving grace, even if they do not explicitly trust in Christ.

Such a view of salvation is really the consistent outworking of Rome’s position on justification. So, while the Roman Catholic Church can no longer claim to be “always the same” or theologically conservative, she still holds a view of justification that is antithetical to the classical Protestant view that we are justified by faith alone. Whatever pretended gains one receives from moving to Rome, one thing he most certainly does not receive—in fact, he loses it altogether—is the assurance of faith (Council of Trent 6.9; hereafter CT). It is little wonder that the brilliant Catholic theologian Robert Bellarmine (1542–1621) once remarked that assurance was the greatest Protestant heresy. If, as Rome maintains, the meritorious cause of justification is our inherent righteousness, then assurance is impossible until the verdict is rendered. For Protestants, that verdict is a present reality; the righteousness of Christ imputed to us is the sole meritorious cause of our entrance into eternal life. But for Roman Catholics—and those outside of the church who “do good”—inherent righteousness is a part of their justification before God (CT 6.7).

The Reformation doctrine of justification was not something about which Protestant theologians could afford to be tentative. At stake is not only the question of how a sinner stands accepted before God and, in connection with that, how he is assured of salvation (1 John 5:13), but also the goodness of God toward His people.

In the end, our controversy with Rome is important because Christ is important. Christ alone—not He and Mary (LG 62)—intercedes between us and the Father; Christ alone—not the pope (LG 22)—is the head of the church and, thus, the supreme judge of our consciences; Christ alone—not pagan “dictates of conscience” (LG 16)—must be the object of faith for salvation; and Christ’s righteousness alone—not ours (LG 40)—is the only hope we have for standing before a God who is both just and the Justifier of the wicked. To move to Rome is not only to give up justification and, thus, assurance— even more so, it is to give up Christ.


TOPICS: Evangelical Christian; General Discusssion; Mainline Protestant
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1 posted on 11/19/2013 6:10:28 AM PST by Gamecock
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To: metmom; Alex Murphy
For example, after the Second Vatican Council (1962–1965), the Catholic Church lost not only the claim to be “always the same” but also its claim to be theologically conservative. Besides the great number of changes that took place at Vatican II (for example, the institution of the vernacular Mass), the documents embraced mutually incompatible theologies. Perhaps the most remarkable change that took place in Rome was its view of salvation outside of the church, which amounts to a form of universalism: “Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience” (Lumen Gentium 16; hereafter LG). Protestants, who were condemned at the Council of Trent (1545–1563), were now referred to as “separated fellow Christians” (Unitatis Redintegratio 4). Once (and still?) anathematized Protestants are now Christians? This is a contradiction. But even worse, present-day Roman Catholic theologians candidly admit that those who try to be good possess divine, saving grace, even if they do not explicitly trust in Christ.
2 posted on 11/19/2013 6:12:26 AM PST by Gamecock (If you like your constitution, you can keep your constitution. Period. (M.S.))
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To: Gamecock; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; caww; count-your-change; CynicalBear; ...
Whatever pretended gains one receives from moving to Rome, one thing he most certainly does not receive—in fact, he loses it altogether—is the assurance of faith (Council of Trent 6.9; hereafter CT). It is little wonder that the brilliant Catholic theologian Robert Bellarmine (1542–1621) once remarked that assurance was the greatest Protestant heresy. If, as Rome maintains, the meritorious cause of justification is our inherent righteousness, then assurance is impossible until the verdict is rendered. For Protestants, that verdict is a present reality; the righteousness of Christ imputed to us is the sole meritorious cause of our entrance into eternal life. But for Roman Catholics—and those outside of the church who “do good”—inherent righteousness is a part of their justification before God (CT 6.7).

Security of the believer

John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

John 10:25-30 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.”

Ephesians 1:13-14 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Colossians 1:13-14 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Colossians 3:3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

2 Corinthians 5:4-8 For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

3 posted on 11/19/2013 6:18:50 AM PST by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of faith....)
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To: Gamecock

Too many brethren joining the Catholic Church - eh?


4 posted on 11/19/2013 6:27:09 AM PST by Last Dakotan
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To: Last Dakotan

Hardly. Too many Roman Catholics high fiving when one does.

If they leave they never were one of us. Besides, numbers don’t prove the truth. The path is narrow after all.


5 posted on 11/19/2013 6:29:27 AM PST by Gamecock (If you like your constitution, you can keep your constitution. Period. (M.S.))
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To: Gamecock

I don’t understand anybody who swims the Tiber for reasons other than theological and ecclesiological, unless he had a vision or somesuch.


6 posted on 11/19/2013 6:30:42 AM PST by Mad Dawg (In te, Domine, speravi: non confundar in aeternum.)
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To: Gamecock
Hardly. Too many Roman Catholics high fiving when one does.

So, that is the problem you have with this?

7 posted on 11/19/2013 7:31:46 AM PST by Last Dakotan
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To: metmom
If, as Rome maintains, the meritorious cause of justification is our inherent righteousness

Rome maintains nothing of the sort. Why do you guys have to keep making up nonsense like this?

The meritorious cause of our justification is the righteousness of Jesus Christ. I'm going to say that again, louder.

The meritorious cause of our justification is the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF JESUS CHRIST !

The effect of our justification is that that righteousness is truly communicated to us and inhabits our soul, it is not merely "imputed" to our "account" as some sort of legal fiction, as Luther wrongly taught.

Anyone who is seeking to be justified by his own "inherent righteousness" (what is that?) will be damned.

It's one thing to object to what Catholicism actually teaches, but to slander us with strawman garbage like this is really inexcusable.

8 posted on 11/19/2013 7:57:08 AM PST by Campion ("Social justice" begins in the womb)
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To: metmom
And, BTW, before you start trying to lecture me that I don't really know what Catholicism teaches, here's my bishop's address:

The Most Reverend David R. Choby
Bishop of Nashville
The Catholic Center
2400 Twenty-first Avenue South
Nashville, TN. 37212

I'll PM you my name and parish, and you can write a letter to the bishop explaining my "heresy" in the preceding post.

I would say he'd laugh in your face, but he's too nice a man for that.

9 posted on 11/19/2013 8:00:04 AM PST by Campion ("Social justice" begins in the womb)
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To: Gamecock
"To move to Rome is not only to give up justification and, thus, assurance— even more so, it is to give up Christ."

Not so. For my wife and me, our Tiber swim took place 19 years ago to be with Him, not give Him up. The author cites two of the four classic Protestant barriers to Rome; the role of Mary and the authority of the pope. Those two, along with the role of the saints and the meaning of the Eucharist, are the primary obstacles. But once the last of these, the meaning of the Eucharist, was literally understood in terms of John Chapter 6, the swim became a necessity. It was no longer an option to stay with the "dog and pony show". We had to be with Jesus.

10 posted on 11/19/2013 8:47:56 AM PST by Reo (the 4th Estate is a 5th Column)
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To: Gamecock
The Roman Catholic Church poses several attractions for evangelical Christians.


11 posted on 11/19/2013 8:49:41 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Campion
I would say he'd laugh in your face, but he's too nice a man for that.

That's illogical.

12 posted on 11/19/2013 8:51:04 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Reo
the meaning of the Eucharist, was literally understood in terms of John Chapter 6

HMMMmmm...


John 6:28-29

Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”


13 posted on 11/19/2013 8:52:35 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie
v. 28-29 starts it, but continues on through v.69....

Also love Bob Dylan's version of v. 28:

Do you ever wonder just what God requires?

You think He's just an errand boy to satisfy your wandering desires?

When you gonna wake up, when you gonna wake up, when you gonna wake up and strengthen the things that remain?

"When You Gonna Wake Up?, Slow Train Comin' album, 1978

14 posted on 11/19/2013 9:16:01 AM PST by Reo (the 4th Estate is a 5th Column)
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To: Elsie
Riiiiiiight.

Believe Him by saying He lied web He said, "This is my body", lied when He told the thief on the cross, "Today you will be with me in Paradise", and sent the Holy Spirit to guide us but didn't give the Holy Spirit power to protect His Word from the inclusion of error.

If someone believes Christ they don't preach and teach doctrines that are only correct if Christ is a liar.

15 posted on 11/19/2013 9:17:55 AM PST by Rashputin (Jesus Christ doesn't evacuate His troops, He leads them to victory)
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To: Rashputin
Believe Him by saying He lied web He said, "This is my body",


He also said...

Get thee behind me SATAN

"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?

"First let the children eat all they want," he told her, "for it is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."

You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred?

When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to her, “Woman, here is your son,” 27 and to the disciple, “Here is your mother.” From that time on, this disciple took her into his home.

Then it follows logically that...

16 posted on 11/19/2013 9:21:52 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Campion

I copied and pasted from the article. Those were not my words. I didn’t make anything up.


17 posted on 11/19/2013 9:35:23 AM PST by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of faith....)
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To: Campion; metmom
The effect of our justification is that that righteousness is truly communicated to us and inhabits our soul, it is not merely "imputed" to our "account" as some sort of legal fiction

You mean like the Bible teaches?

18 posted on 11/19/2013 9:41:00 AM PST by Gamecock (If you like your constitution, you can keep your constitution. Period. (M.S.))
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To: Campion
The effect of our justification is that that righteousness is truly communicated to us and inhabits our soul, it is not merely "imputed" to our "account" as some sort of legal fiction, as Luther wrongly taught.

What? Paul was wrong as well?

Paul teaches grace without merit and imputed righteousness without merit.

We can't do anything to earn, or merit, if you will, the righteousness God offers us as a free gift by grace through faith in Christ.

Gifts are NOT earned.

Colossians 2:13-14 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

Romans 4:1-25 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”

Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”

Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.

That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist.

In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations, as he had been told, “So shall your offspring be.” He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah's womb. No unbelief made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised.

That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.” But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.


19 posted on 11/19/2013 9:44:47 AM PST by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of faith....)
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To: Reo
But once the last of these, the meaning of the Eucharist, was literally understood in terms of John Chapter 6, the swim became a necessity.

How do you reconcile the teaching of the Catholic church that the flesh gives life in light of Jesus comment in John 6 that It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

The SPIRIT gives life.

The flesh is no help at all.

So what, according to Catholicism, gives life? The Spirit, like Jesus said, or the flesh like the RCC says?

20 posted on 11/19/2013 9:48:13 AM PST by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of faith....)
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To: Gamecock

I cannot imagine why it so pushes RC’s over the edge to think that Christ’s righteousness is imputed to us, credited to our account, without us having to earn it. Nothing seems to set them off more than to think that God is merciful and gives us His salvation and righteousness as a gift.

You’d think anyone in their right minds would jump at the chance.

Go figure.


21 posted on 11/19/2013 9:51:38 AM PST by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of faith....)
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To: metmom

Shows thier wordliness. Everyone else in the world thinks they are good enough. Modern day Roman Catholicism thinks the same.

Eph. 2:8-9, “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not by works, lest any man should boast.”


22 posted on 11/19/2013 9:56:33 AM PST by Gamecock (If you like your constitution, you can keep your constitution. Period. (M.S.))
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To: Gamecock

“Hardly. Too many Roman Catholics high fiving when one does.”

Here’s a high five for you: last week representatives from a small but very influential Protestant denomination visited the Vatican to meet with a high ranking cardinal to formally request opening up dialogue between the Catholic Church and the aforementioned Protestant denomination. I won’t tell you the denomination’s name until it is revealed by that denomination and the Catholic Church, but it will be a big deal when it becomes public.

Are you feeling any better now? Somehow I doubt that.


23 posted on 11/19/2013 10:32:36 AM PST by vladimir998
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To: Campion; metmom
From metmom: If, as Rome maintains, the meritorious cause of justification is our inherent righteousness

Your response: Rome maintains nothing of the sort. Why do you guys have to keep making up nonsense like this?

The truth.

THE COUNCIL OF TRENT

Session VI - Celebrated on the thirteenth day of January, 1547 under Pope Paul III

CHAPTER XVI
THE FRUITS OF JUSTIFICATION, THAT IS, THE MERIT OF GOOD WORKS, AND THE
NATURE OF THAT MERIT

“we must believe that nothing further is wanting to those justified to prevent them from being considered to have, by those very works which have been done in God, fully satisfied the divine law according to the state of this life and to have truly merited eternal life,”

Would you like to apologize to metmom?

24 posted on 11/19/2013 10:48:52 AM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: Gamecock

In America, whites are leaving Catholicism, mass democrat immigration keeps the numbers somewhat steady.


25 posted on 11/19/2013 10:59:09 AM PST by ansel12 ( Democrats-"a party that since antebellum times has been bent on the dishonoring of humanity.)
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To: Gamecock

People searching for truth will be swimming the Tiber 2,000 years from now “so that they all may be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you.”


26 posted on 11/19/2013 11:19:23 AM PST by ex-snook (God is Love)
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To: Gamecock
From what I see it is those Protestants who wanted a religious experience or those who perhaps sought Jesus but never found him...

It is inconceivable to me that a Spirit indwelt Christian would take on a religion which teaches that you are in error and not indwelt with the Holy Spirit...I'd say it's impossible for a born again Christian to become a Catholic...

27 posted on 11/19/2013 11:31:03 AM PST by Iscool
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To: ex-snook
People searching for truth will be swimming the Tiber 2,000 years from now “so that they all may be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you.”

Depends on what side of the Tiber you swam to...The far side feeds you the father once a week or so and you're good for about 20 minutes...

28 posted on 11/19/2013 11:33:30 AM PST by Iscool
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To: Elsie
Then we at least agree that people who believe Mary is dead believe Christ lied to the thief on the cross and that people who only accept the anti-Christ Pharisee Approved Luther Subset of Scripture believe the Holy Spirit cannot and did not protect the Word of God from error.

A simple clear statement like, "This is my body" isn't at all the same as the typical silly comparisons those who deny the power of the Holy Spirit try to compare it to but that's OK since by agreeing with the other two things I mention makes my point for me.

29 posted on 11/19/2013 12:45:26 PM PST by Rashputin (Jesus Christ doesn't evacuate His troops, He leads them to victory)
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To: Gamecock
In the end, our controversy with Rome is important because Christ is important. Christ alone—not He and Mary (LG 62)—intercedes between us and the Father; Christ alone—not the pope (LG 22)—is the head of the church and, thus, the supreme judge of our consciences; Christ alone—not pagan “dictates of conscience” (LG 16)—must be the object of faith for salvation; and Christ’s righteousness alone—not ours (LG 40)—is the only hope we have for standing before a God who is both just and the Justifier of the wicked. To move to Rome is not only to give up justification and, thus, assurance— even more so, it is to give up Christ.

Thank you for posting this. The doctrine of justification by faith alone in Christ alone was the MAJOR reason why I rejected the religion I was born and raised in and there is NO impetus for me to ever need to return to it. It is for that very reason that Bellarmine stated - there can be no assurance of salvation in a religion that makes personal righteousness the cause of it. This assurance - the imputation of Christ's righeousness clearly and unambiguously taught in Scripture - is something NOTHING can steal from me!

30 posted on 11/19/2013 1:59:13 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: metmom; Gamecock
This gist of the problem:

For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. (Romans 10:2-4)

31 posted on 11/19/2013 2:06:59 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: Rashputin
Your Logic 101 grade appears to have been rated WAY too high.

... we at least agree that people who believe Mary is dead believe Christ lied to the thief on the cross...

32 posted on 11/19/2013 2:12:38 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Mad Dawg; Gamecock
I don’t understand anybody who swims the Tiber for reasons other than theological and ecclesiological, unless he had a vision or somesuch.

Which direction are you talking about? :o)

I swam away because of theological reasons but many Catholics have asserted (here, especially) that that isn't possible and the only reasons could have been for moral ones (i.e., disagreement over divorce, sex outside of marriage, contraception, etc.). Yet, when I left it was because I recognized that the gospel of Catholicism was NOT the gospel of Christ.

33 posted on 11/19/2013 2:14:10 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: boatbums

Nailed it!


34 posted on 11/19/2013 2:18:27 PM PST by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of faith....)
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To: Elsie
The number of Protestants consumed by fire at autos de fe, was quite small, although the Elizabethan propagandists made it seem like a million. The Spanish inquisition aimed more at ethnic cleaning, at Jews and Moors, than heresy.
35 posted on 11/19/2013 2:27:22 PM PST by RobbyS (quotes)
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To: ansel12

Not to become protestants, not any more. More to become pagans, just like the children of the evangelicals. Neither side has any bragging rights.


36 posted on 11/19/2013 2:30:52 PM PST by RobbyS (quotes)
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To: boatbums
Well, having read Thomas Sowell, I have at least to note that "Recognize" is the debatable word.
:-)

But yes, in either direction. Such a choice shouldn't be made on a whim or a "what the heck?" it seems to me.

37 posted on 11/19/2013 2:33:16 PM PST by Mad Dawg (In te, Domine, speravi: non confundar in aeternum.)
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To: CynicalBear; metmom; Gamecock
Some more of THEIR truth:

If any one saith that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation...and that without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain from God, through faith alone, the grace of justification...let him be anathema (The Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent. Found in Philip Schaff, The Creeds of Christendom (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1919), Canon IV, p. 119).

As regards those who, by sin, have fallen from the received grace of Justification, they may again be justified...through the sacrament of Penance...For, on behalf of those who fall into sins after baptism, Christ Jesus instituted the sacrament of Penance...and therein are included not only a cessation from sins, and a detestation thereof, or, a contrite and humble heart, but also the sacramental confession of said sins...and sacerdotal absolution; and likewise satisfaction by fasts, alms, prayers, and the other pious exercises of the spiritual life...for the temporal punishment, which...is not always wholly remitted. If any one saith that he who has fallen after baptism...is able to recover the justice which he has lost...by faith alone without the sacrament of Penance...let him be anathema (The Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent. Found in Philip Schaff, The Creeds of Christendom (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1910), Decree on Justification, Chapter XIV. Canon XXIX.

In this divine sacrifice...that same Christ is contained and immolated in an unbloody manner who once offered himself in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross...This sacrifice is truly propitiatory...If any one saith, that the sacrifice of the mass is only a sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving; or that it is a bare commemoration of the sacrifice consummated on the cross, but not a propitiatory sacrifice...and that it ought not to be offered for the living and dead for sins, pains, satisfactions and other necessities: let him be anathema (The Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent. Found in Philip Schaff, The Creeds of Christendom (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1910), Doctrine on the Sacrifice of the Mass, Chp. II, p. 180, Canon III).

The doctrine of purgatory clearly demonstrates that even when the guilt of sin has been taken away, punishment for it or the consequences of it may remain to be expiated and cleansed. They often are. In fact, in purgatory the souls of those 'who died in the charity of God and truly repentant, but who had not made satisfaction with adequate penance for their sins and omissions' are cleansed after death with punishments designed to purge away their debt...Following in Christ’s steps, those who believe in him have always tried to help one another along the path which leads to the heavenly Father, through prayer, the exchange of spiritual goods and penitential expiation. The more they have been immersed in the fervor of love, the more they have imitated Christ in his sufferings. They have carried their crosses to make expiation for their own sins and the sins of others. They were convinced that they could help their brothers to obtain salvation from God who is the Father of mercies. This is the very ancient dogma called the Communion of Saints...The “treasury of the Church” is the infinite value, which can never be exhausted, which Christ’s merits have before God. They were offered so that the whole of mankind could be set free from sin and attain communion with the Father. In Christ, the Redeemer himself, the satisfactions and merits of his Redemption exist and find their efficacy. This treasury includes as well the prayers and good works of the Blessed Virgin Mary. They are truly immense, unfathomable and even pristine in their value before God. In the treasury, too, are the prayers and good works of all the saints, all those who have followed in the footsteps of Christ the Lord and by his grace have made their lives holy and carried out the mission the Father entrusted to them. In this way they attained their own salvation and at the same time cooperated in saving their brothers in the unity of the Mystical Body...God’s only-begotten Son... has won a treasure for the militant Church... he has entrusted it to blessed Peter, the key-bearer of heaven, and to his successors who are Christ’s vicars on earth, so that they may distribute it to the faithful for their salvation. They may apply it with mercy for reasonable causes to all who have repented for and have confessed their sins. At times they may remit completely, and at other times only partially, the temporal punishment due to sin in a general as well as in special ways (insofar as they judge it to be fitting in the sight of the Lord). The merits of the Blessed Mother of God and of all the elect ... are known to add further to this treasure (Paul VI, Indulgentiarum Doctrina, January 1, 1967).

Justification...is not the remission of sins merely, but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man. If any one saith, that the good works of the one that is justified are in such manner the gifts of God, that they are not also the good merits of him that is justified, by the good works which he performs through the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, and does not truly merit increase in grace, eternal life, and the attainment of eternal life, if so be, that he depart in grace, and an increase in glory, let him be anathema (The Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent. Found in Philip Schaff, The Creeds of Christendom (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1910), Decree on Justification, Chapter VII, Canons X, XXXII).

38 posted on 11/19/2013 2:41:28 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: boatbums

And of what does that assurance consist, becoming a saint or just feeling justified, or something else?


39 posted on 11/19/2013 2:41:34 PM PST by RobbyS (quotes)
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To: Mad Dawg

Yes, I agree. Hope all is well in your neck of the woods.


40 posted on 11/19/2013 2:49:34 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: boatbums

I think it speaks to the nature of man, of the degree that sin has corrupted that nature. Luther, in his spiritual struggles, came to have a very low opinion of himself as a human being. Whatever he did, he saw the pit of hell yawning before him, a veritable black hole from which no light emerged, and every step brought him closer to that pit.


41 posted on 11/19/2013 2:50:26 PM PST by RobbyS (quotes)
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To: boatbums
Is it necessary that every thread which might have interest and be reconciling (for example, there is a suggestion about common ground concerning reason) degenerate into a donnybrook?

The government is assailing and threatening the Catholics right now. Last year on the days of our Stand Up for Religious Freedom rallies, Protestants joined us, and one, a Baptist, said, "We're all Catholic today."

I think we'd do better and give better witness if we focused more on making common cause these days.

In Richard Strauss's searing opera, Salome, the Jews are represented as people always quarreling. The opera was first performed in 1905. Look what happened a generation later.

When Caesar comes for us, there will be not only Maximilian Kolbes but also Bonhoeffers. I'm just sayin'.

42 posted on 11/19/2013 2:59:06 PM PST by Mad Dawg (In te, Domine, speravi: non confundar in aeternum.)
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To: RobbyS
And of what does that assurance consist, becoming a saint or just feeling justified, or something else?

Good question. It is the assurance that I am, right now, redeemed by the blood of Christ and that the Holy Spirit within me has been given as a GUARANTEE of my redemption. It is in knowing that the very fact that I have received Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord that I am positionally seated already in the heavenlies with Christ and that my ultimate sanctification is assured as I live here on earth. It is explained well in Ephesians 2:1-10

    As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

43 posted on 11/19/2013 3:04:23 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: Mad Dawg; boatbums

Just an ironic incident regarding things degenerating into a “donnybrook”. My daughter, Brooke, married a guy named, you guessed it, Donny. I didn’t want to think the marriage was doomed, but...and sure enough, it quickly degenerated into a you guessed it again. NAMES MEAN SOMETHING PEOPLE!! :)


44 posted on 11/19/2013 3:07:19 PM PST by smvoice (HELP! I'm trapped inside this body and I can't get out!)
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To: boatbums

To put it in Catholic talk, you are convinced that you are in a state of grace, and that no matter what you do, you will so remain, because the Holy Spirit is within you?


45 posted on 11/19/2013 3:12:13 PM PST by RobbyS (quotes)
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To: Mad Dawg
I actually deplore the donnybrooks! However, it is necessary sometimes (here, especially) to earnestly contend for the faith once delivered unto the saints. It would be lovely if we could conduct all discussions with respect and kindness - agreeing to disagree when at a standoff, but as Jesus aptly demonstrated many times, that isn't always possible and error should be rebuked. Granted, some Catholics think everything is erroneous in the "Protestant" world and vice versa, but we DO have many core commonalities. There may very well come a time when we will do battle side-by-side against the dark forces attacking our Christian way of life and I will join that battle. I just don't believe that we have to shy away from expressing what and why we believe as we do on these threads that get posted here. It's a heck of a lot easier than on any other website out in the cloud world, that's for sure!

We should each be responsible for our own online conduct and I try hard to contain my urges to answer fire with fire. I've learned that, of course, it only makes the fire hotter. I've learned that a "soft answer turns away wrath" most times. I appreciate that quality in yours.

46 posted on 11/19/2013 3:23:35 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: smvoice

Whoah! How ironic.


47 posted on 11/19/2013 3:25:21 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: boatbums

lol! Isn’t it though?! ANother one, my sister’s secretary is named Sandy Klause. I am not kidding.


48 posted on 11/19/2013 3:29:31 PM PST by smvoice (HELP! I'm trapped inside this body and I can't get out!)
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To: smvoice

EXCELLENT!

However, her parents need a spanking.


49 posted on 11/19/2013 3:34:24 PM PST by Mad Dawg (In te, Domine, speravi: non confundar in aeternum.)
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To: smvoice

That’s a great story! So sad but so funny,


50 posted on 11/19/2013 3:35:26 PM PST by Mad Dawg (In te, Domine, speravi: non confundar in aeternum.)
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