Swimming the Tiber?

The Roman Catholic Church poses several attractions for evangelical Christians. Whether their motivation is Rome’s apparent unifying power, its claims to be semper idem (“always the same”), its so-called historical pedigree, its ornate liturgy, or the belief that only Rome can withstand the onslaught of liberalism and postmodernism, a number of evangelicals have given up their “protest” and made the metaphorical trek across Rome’s Tiber River into the Roman Catholic Church.

Historically, particularly during the Reformation and post-Reformation periods, those who defected back to Rome typically did so out of intense social, political, and ecclesiastical pressure—sometimes even to save themselves from dying for their Protestant beliefs. But today, those who move to Rome are not under that same type of pressure. Thus, we are faced with the haunting reality that people are (apparently) freely moving to Rome.

In understanding why evangelicals turn to Catholicism, we must confess that churches today in the Protestant tradition have much for which to answer. Many evangelical churches today are, practically speaking, dog-and-pony shows. Not only has reverence for a thrice holy God disappeared in our worship, but even the very truths that make us Protestant, truths for which people have died, such as justification by faith alone, have been jettisoned for pithy epithets that would not seem out of place in a Roman Catholic Mass or, indeed, a Jewish synagogue. Our polemics against Rome will be of any lasting value only when Protestant churches return to a vibrant confessional theology, rooted in ongoing exegetical reflection, so that we have something positive to say and practice alongside our very serious objections to Roman Catholic theology.

The attractions of Rome are, however, dubious when closely examined. For example, after the Second Vatican Council (1962–1965), the Catholic Church lost not only the claim to be “always the same” but also its claim to be theologically conservative. Besides the great number of changes that took place at Vatican II (for example, the institution of the vernacular Mass), the documents embraced mutually incompatible theologies. Perhaps the most remarkable change that took place in Rome was its view of salvation outside of the church, which amounts to a form of universalism: “Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience” (Lumen Gentium 16; hereafter LG). Protestants, who were condemned at the Council of Trent (1545–1563), were now referred to as “separated fellow Christians” (Unitatis Redintegratio 4). Once (and still?) anathematized Protestants are now Christians? This is a contradiction. But even worse, present-day Roman Catholic theologians candidly admit that those who try to be good possess divine, saving grace, even if they do not explicitly trust in Christ.

Such a view of salvation is really the consistent outworking of Rome’s position on justification. So, while the Roman Catholic Church can no longer claim to be “always the same” or theologically conservative, she still holds a view of justification that is antithetical to the classical Protestant view that we are justified by faith alone. Whatever pretended gains one receives from moving to Rome, one thing he most certainly does not receive—in fact, he loses it altogether—is the assurance of faith (Council of Trent 6.9; hereafter CT). It is little wonder that the brilliant Catholic theologian Robert Bellarmine (1542–1621) once remarked that assurance was the greatest Protestant heresy. If, as Rome maintains, the meritorious cause of justification is our inherent righteousness, then assurance is impossible until the verdict is rendered. For Protestants, that verdict is a present reality; the righteousness of Christ imputed to us is the sole meritorious cause of our entrance into eternal life. But for Roman Catholics—and those outside of the church who “do good”—inherent righteousness is a part of their justification before God (CT 6.7).

The Reformation doctrine of justification was not something about which Protestant theologians could afford to be tentative. At stake is not only the question of how a sinner stands accepted before God and, in connection with that, how he is assured of salvation (1 John 5:13), but also the goodness of God toward His people.

In the end, our controversy with Rome is important because Christ is important. Christ alone—not He and Mary (LG 62)—intercedes between us and the Father; Christ alone—not the pope (LG 22)—is the head of the church and, thus, the supreme judge of our consciences; Christ alone—not pagan “dictates of conscience” (LG 16)—must be the object of faith for salvation; and Christ’s righteousness alone—not ours (LG 40)—is the only hope we have for standing before a God who is both just and the Justifier of the wicked. To move to Rome is not only to give up justification and, thus, assurance— even more so, it is to give up Christ.

I think it speaks to the nature of man, of the degree that sin has corrupted that nature. Luther, in his spiritual struggles, came to have a very low opinion of himself as a human being. Whatever he did, he saw the pit of hell yawning before him, a veritable black hole from which no light emerged, and every step brought him closer to that pit.

Is it necessary that every thread which might have interest and be reconciling (for example, there is a suggestion about common ground concerning reason) degenerate into a donnybrook?

The government is assailing and threatening the Catholics right now. Last year on the days of our Stand Up for Religious Freedom rallies, Protestants joined us, and one, a Baptist, said, "We're all Catholic today."

I think we'd do better and give better witness if we focused more on making common cause these days.

In Richard Strauss's searing opera, Salome, the Jews are represented as people always quarreling. The opera was first performed in 1905. Look what happened a generation later.

When Caesar comes for us, there will be not only Maximilian Kolbes but also Bonhoeffers. I'm just sayin'.

And of what does that assurance consist, becoming a saint or just feeling justified, or something else?

Good question. It is the assurance that I am, right now, redeemed by the blood of Christ and that the Holy Spirit within me has been given as a GUARANTEE of my redemption. It is in knowing that the very fact that I have received Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord that I am positionally seated already in the heavenlies with Christ and that my ultimate sanctification is assured as I live here on earth. It is explained well in Ephesians 2:1-10

As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Just an ironic incident regarding things degenerating into a “donnybrook”. My daughter, Brooke, married a guy named, you guessed it, Donny. I didn’t want to think the marriage was doomed, but...and sure enough, it quickly degenerated into a you guessed it again. NAMES MEAN SOMETHING PEOPLE!! :)

I actually deplore the donnybrooks! However, it is necessary sometimes (here, especially) to earnestly contend for the faith once delivered unto the saints. It would be lovely if we could conduct all discussions with respect and kindness - agreeing to disagree when at a standoff, but as Jesus aptly demonstrated many times, that isn't always possible and error should be rebuked. Granted, some Catholics think everything is erroneous in the "Protestant" world and vice versa, but we DO have many core commonalities. There may very well come a time when we will do battle side-by-side against the dark forces attacking our Christian way of life and I will join that battle. I just don't believe that we have to shy away from expressing what and why we believe as we do on these threads that get posted here. It's a heck of a lot easier than on any other website out in the cloud world, that's for sure!

We should each be responsible for our own online conduct and I try hard to contain my urges to answer fire with fire. I've learned that, of course, it only makes the fire hotter. I've learned that a "soft answer turns away wrath" most times. I appreciate that quality in yours.

To put it in Catholic talk, you are convinced that you are in a state of grace, and that no matter what you do, you will so remain, because the Holy Spirit is within you?

God's word assures me that I have been saved by grace through faith and that it's not of my own works or efforts. All those who come to Christ in faith are IN a state of grace because that is how we ARE saved - by grace. Just as we are not saved by our own merits (say, not sinning, doing good works, saying prayers, etc.) we are also not KEPT saved by those efforts. We are found In Christ, not having our own righteousness, but the righteousness which is of God by faith (Philippians 3:9). The grace that saves us, keeps us saved.

And, in anticipation of your next tack, saving faith IS a faith that is demonstrated in a changed life. The "old nature" is crucified with Christ and we have been given a new nature - a SPIRIT nature - that internally renews our minds. This is a "living faith" that the lives we now lead we lead by the grace of God in gratitude for His mercy and because we are now geared towards righteousness in order to honor and glorify God. We may slip from time to time, because that old nature keeps crawling off the altar, but the spirit always draws us back to Christ and repentance. We never are cast away, lost or unadopted, that same grace which redeemed us keeps us saved - even if/when we slip. When that awesome truth is finally revealed to our hearts, how can we EVER desire to remain in sin?

I don’t understand anybody who swims the Tiber for reasons other than theological and ecclesiological, unless he had a vision or some such.

Roman doctrine and practice offers "order." Those that go to Evangelical/Baptist/Protestant churches that end up with Rome are seeking "order" and "tangible" religion.

Rome feeds the senses and gives concrete "stereo instructions" on how to be "righteous" before God. So people seeking order in their lives who do not have the Holy Spirit guiding them, go to something that they can "control" by DOING somethings. That is the allure.

Pastors probably see it coming but most don't. They are the veiled questions of "how do I know for sure I am saved?" I am sure pastors lead them to God's Word and if God's Word is not enough, they shop for a religion that gives them written instructions on what they can DO. At that point you put 'salvation' in your our hands (control, kind of like at the tower of Babel) and the hands of others who tell you that what you are doing is right because "God has his rep right here on earth" to confirm your beliefs...which are in yourself and not God.

I do believe John 6 begins with verse 1 as well. Loads going on in the entire chapter to include verse 63. When the Jews started discussing manna from heaven given by Moses (really Jesus), Jesus begins His similtude of faith/trust (belief) in Him as the Son of God.

If Rome wants to build a major theology on a similtude that does not correspond to the Last Supper, that is fine, but they need to be honest about other similtudes Jesus spoke as well. He is the Door; the Vine; the Word. We understand what Jesus meant by "the Door." He is the door to the Father. We don't have an earthly door in which to enter, because it is in the Person of Jesus Christ. We understand the term “Word” (Greek logos) designates God the Son with respect to His deity; “Jesus” and “Christ” refer to His incarnation and saving work. We do not "eat" a Bible to receive the Word. The Vine is used to show The Father is in the Son, the Son in the Father, The believer in the Son and the Son in the believer. Quite a 'complicated' circuit thus the Vine.

These are powerful similtudes, pictorals if you will of a definate REALITY of Jesus Christ. None of them are giving us a physical reality other than the death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ. That happened once for all.

We are told by the Master in verse 63:

63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

I copied and pasted from the article. Those were not my words. I didn’t make anything up.

I didn't say you "made anything up". The article you pasted flatly states a falsehood. It tells a lie.

Anti-Catholic evangelicals always say, "Oh, we don't hate Catholics! We love Catholics!". REALITY CHECK! Telling a falsehood about someone else is slander. It's objectively a sin. It's -- objectively -- *never* an act of love.

(Subjectively, it can be done out of ignorance, and be innocent. However, I just popped any bubbles of ignorance on that topic, and am happy to pop them again. Do you want me to quote Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, on the topic? I'm happy to.)

Excellent post. What did Jesus tell us about justification?

Luke 18:

9 And He also told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and viewed others with contempt: 10 “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.’ 13 But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

I've been curious as to why Catholics believe they ingest His Body and Blood, yet they make no mention of why they don't light up like glow-worms at night."THen spake Jesus again unto them, saying, "I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life." (John 8:12). Now THAT would be an argument they could PROVE happened, every night they partake of the Eucharist. WHy is one literal and the other figurative? Maybe because they are BOTH figurative??

Catholics do not believe we are saved by our own efforts, but we do believe that we are made in the image of God, and our nature was not so corrupted by sin that our inborn gifts have no efficacy. As to assurance, I am not quite sure how to reconcile the confident attitude of modern evangelicals with that of, say , say the Puritans who kept spiritual journals so they might discern whether they were among the Elect or not. You all seem to have more in common with John Wesley and his methodism than Calvin.

Nothing seems to set them off more than to think that God is merciful and gives us His salvation and righteousness as a gift.

People by nature, love the ability to "see" and "touch"...the tangible things. It gives people "control" over their own lives. We are a fallen people of demanding "litmus tests" and "metrics." Rome gives people what they want---the ability to merit their own salvation, which makes folks feel like they are in control.

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