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From a Biblical standpoint, when is drunkenness reached?
11/25/2013 | Laissez-Faire Capitalist

Posted on 11/25/2013 9:03:35 AM PST by Laissez-faire capitalist

The Apostle Paul said to not become drunk on wine, but to be filled with the Spirit. Obviously, there is a point at which one can imbibe a certain amount of alcohol, be it from fermented grapes, fermenting honey, or whatever - and become drunk.

I imagine that some people, somewhere, can drink one beer for the first time and become drunk - a rarity indeed - but nonetheless not outside the realm of possiblity. And so, by drinking that first beer, they become drunk --- and sin. Others may say that it takes x amount (be it from wine, beer, hard liquor, etc) to become drunk (i.e. a 6 pack). Others may say that it takes x amount of the aforementioned times 1.5 (9 beers). Others may say 2 times x - a 12 pack...

Is it different for each person? .

Can some people say "I wasn't drunk, I was just slightly tipsy, or somewhat tipsy, and thus was not drunk and therefore do not need to repent of the sin of drunkenness." Who is to say? Do they alone know the truth?

The best thing to do is avoid alcohol altogether.

Now some may say that if this road is trod that it could lead to a host of "maybe I shouldn't do this or that" and thus it becomes a question of necessity.

Is clothing necessary? Yes. Is food necessary? Yes. And on and on... And so, some things in life aren't necessary. Is alcohol necessary?

Can someone become addicted to a host of things? Certainly. Some are probably addicted to social websites - how is that any different from being addicted to cigarettes? Sure, certain addiction may have different levels of consquence, but addictions of any sort aren't pleasing to God.

And, once again, I will add to this - for those who missed it the first two times:

A young man was heard accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. A few years later he went off to Bible college, graduated, and became a youth pastor not long thereafter. Around two years later he fell into sin, deep sin, whatever. Half of the church thought that he was never saved to begin with, and the other half thought that he had merely "fallen out of fellowship" with Christ, but was nonetheless still saved.

So how much bad fruit, or lack of good fruit, does one have to show in order to be classified into the "never saved" to begin with or the merely "out of fellowship with Christ"? X amount of sin? X amount plus one act of drunkenness? X amount of a particular sin, plus one act of drunkenness, plus one time of fornication to put them "over the top" and into the realm of the "never saved"? And how much of a time period must elapse between each sin(s)?

Yes, Paul the Apostle knew that certain of the Thessalonians were saved, and appaerently the Apostle John knew that certain were saved when he wrote to them, but they were writing the scriptures. The Bible says that the scriptures are God breathed, and Paul wrote that the scriptures were written when the Holy Spirit moved upon men.

And thus it wasn't Paul or John who knew who was or wasn't saved, but God alone --- He revealed this to them as they wrote the scriptures. But since there are supposedly no Apostles around anymore, who is there for God to reveal things like this to? And secondly, the canon of scripture is closed.

I believe that we know personally if our hearts are or aren't right with Jesus Christ. I know when God has pricked my heart on several occasions. As to being able to say with absolute certainty whether or not the person sitting next to me or you in the pew is or isn't saved - who is to know?

I believe that the term "out of fellowship with Christ" needs to be chunked.

If a person is in sin, claims to be saved, then someone should follow the scriptures and go to that person and tell them that they need to repent. If they refuse, then take a second person, (an elder of the church). If they refuse to repent, let the local body of believers they belong to decide to tell them that they refuse to repent and are thus disfellowshipped. Sure, they can still come to that church church, but they (as Jesus said) would be treated like a heathen man.

And so, if that youth pastor person ultimately refused to repent... in the end, was he never truly saved to begin with? And if so, how could they he duped the church for so long?

If his departure from the church was his unmasking, who is to say that he will never return and truly repent, thus showing that a declaration of him being never saved to begin with was actually premature, as they later repented, and thus showed that they were saved in the first place, and had not duped the church, but had fallen into sin?

So, once again, how can one ever differentiate here in the here and now, and at this moment b/w those who are or will be known later as the "never saved" and the "fallen out of fellowship with Christ"?


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian; General Discusssion; Mainline Protestant; Ministry/Outreach; Moral Issues; Theology
KEYWORDS: biblealcohol; drunkenness
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1 posted on 11/25/2013 9:03:35 AM PST by Laissez-faire capitalist
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist
Which lie makes one a liar ?

Which one(s) do not ?


ALL scripture is given ..... snip ..... for instruction in righteousness.

2 posted on 11/25/2013 9:05:56 AM PST by knarf (I say things that are true .. I have no proof .. but they're true.)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

If, at any time, Obama makes sense .... then you’ve probably had a bit too much.


3 posted on 11/25/2013 9:10:24 AM PST by F15Eagle (1Jn4:15;5:4-5,11-13;Mt27:50-54;Mk15:33-34;Jn3:17-18,6:69,11:25,14:6,20:31;Ro10:8-11;1Tm2:5-6;Ti3:4-7)
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To: F15Eagle

Indeed, that’s a good indicator, because the main point is to not take leave of your senses, which you would have to in order for Obama to make sense.


4 posted on 11/25/2013 9:14:08 AM PST by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter admits whom he's working for)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

The cool thing about Christianity is that it is a “spirit of the law” rather than “letter of the law” sort of thing.

They didn’t have breathalizer’s back then. I’ll add that you know when you are “drunk” vs slightly feeling it. I figure it is somewhere between the two but towards the latter. It’s also a frame of mind. If you are feeling it, do you down another couple shots of tequila? And, frankly, why are you doing shots in the first place when the only reason for them is getting drunk?

I like to sip bourbon, scotch, tequila and even good vodka. But I limit myself to a shot an hour.


5 posted on 11/25/2013 9:14:15 AM PST by cuban leaf
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To: knarf

“The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective” James 5:16

Do not mix or confuse righteous living with salvation which is the free gift of God.

As far as alcohol is concerned, Jesus turned the water into wine... and yet taught against ANY excess.... not just alcohol.

Gluttony is a sin too... so how fat do you have to be before your salvation is in question?

Righteous living empowers your prayer life.

Addiction is addiction... regardless of how much it takes to get your “fix”.


6 posted on 11/25/2013 9:17:22 AM PST by Safrguns (PM me if you like to play Minecraft!)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

From personal experience, the third tequila shot.


7 posted on 11/25/2013 9:17:34 AM PST by OpusatFR
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

Wow, seems to me you are conflating a number of issues.

First, the issue of adult beverages.
Second, the issue of once saved, always saved, really EVER saved, etc.
Third, church fellowhip, etc.

On the first, I would say that the “first miracle” more or less does away with any idea that teetotaling is scriptural.

On the second, I mean, it is a heart thing, and who are we to know about others?

On the third, a totally different deal altogether.


8 posted on 11/25/2013 9:18:57 AM PST by C. Edmund Wright (Tokyo Rove is more than a name, it's a GREAT WEBSITE)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

When the mother of Jesus said “Son, they have no wine”, at the Cana wedding feast, did He reply,

“Mom, it’s good thing they ran out before there’s too much drunkenness. I wouldn’t contribute to making the situation any worse.”

Instead, Jesus willed His first miracle recorded in Scripture, and when the chief steward tasted the water changed to wine, he called the bridegroom over & criticized his saving the best wine for last when the guests were too inebriated to taste the difference.

At the Last Supper, Jesus took the cup filled with wine and gave thanks........

Kinda difficult to insist that it was all only grape juice.


9 posted on 11/25/2013 9:20:18 AM PST by elcid1970 ("In the modern world, Muslims are living fossils.")
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist
The best thing to do is avoid alcohol altogether.


10 posted on 11/25/2013 9:22:39 AM PST by central_va (I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: elcid1970

there are quite a few Christians-

That interpret -that indeed it WAS all Grape juice-
nothing was fermented.

just sayin...


11 posted on 11/25/2013 9:24:46 AM PST by mj1234
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To: Safrguns

Good and appropriate answer.


12 posted on 11/25/2013 9:25:34 AM PST by Obadiah (I Like Ted.)
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To: F15Eagle

POTD! LOL!


13 posted on 11/25/2013 9:28:39 AM PST by knittnmom (Save the earth! It's the only planet with chocolate!)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist
From a Biblical standpoint, when is drunkenness reached?

When it causes an inability to serve others and oneself according to the will of God.

14 posted on 11/25/2013 9:30:50 AM PST by Raycpa
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To: Obadiah

>>> Good and appropriate answer.

Thanks... now if I could just stop smoking... ;)


15 posted on 11/25/2013 9:31:48 AM PST by Safrguns (PM me if you like to play Minecraft!)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

Yes - it is obvious from the text that some drinking of “wine” is a given. IMHO, it boils down to the question of where is your heart (what gives you pleasure)?

Imagine dying of thirst in the desert and you find a cool clear well. But then instead of drinking deeply, you grab a nearby spade and dig and scratch in the dirt, trying to suck some life-giving moisture of of the dry dust. This what God calls EVIL:

“...for my people have committed two evils: they have forsaken me, the fountain of living waters, and hewed out cisterns for themselves, broken cisterns that can hold no water.” Jeremiah 2:13

I thinks C.S. Lewis put it best:
“It would seem that Our Lord finds our desires not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.” C.S. Lewis, The Weight of Glory.


16 posted on 11/25/2013 9:32:57 AM PST by jonno (Having an opinion is not the same as having the answer...)
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To: jonno

(FR needs an ‘edit’ button 8^)


17 posted on 11/25/2013 9:35:49 AM PST by jonno (Having an opinion is not the same as having the answer...)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

When you stop being a happy drunk.


18 posted on 11/25/2013 9:46:28 AM PST by glorgau
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To: mj1234

And they are wrong, and normally among the most pharisaical among us…..


19 posted on 11/25/2013 9:47:16 AM PST by C. Edmund Wright (Tokyo Rove is more than a name, it's a GREAT WEBSITE)
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To: cuban leaf

12-18 yo single malt…..in small, slow amounts…..


20 posted on 11/25/2013 9:47:59 AM PST by C. Edmund Wright (Tokyo Rove is more than a name, it's a GREAT WEBSITE)
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To: Raycpa
When it causes an inability to serve others and oneself according to the will of God.

Interesting concept, since in the "first miracle" - at the wedding feast - it was apparently okay for the guests to really party down - and yet, in other situations….driving, at work, etc, the bar would be far lower.

21 posted on 11/25/2013 9:50:25 AM PST by C. Edmund Wright (Tokyo Rove is more than a name, it's a GREAT WEBSITE)
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To: Safrguns
You guys are good ... but not THAT good.

NO where did I even come close to implying anything about salvation.

But if you want to play switcho-change-o ... WHY was Jesus baptized ?

22 posted on 11/25/2013 9:51:06 AM PST by knarf (I say things that are true .. I have no proof .. but they're true.)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist; F15Eagle
It is a good and fair question. Our pastor has been confronted by both the teetotalers and the casual drinkers, and he sides with the teetotalers (he is one himself), because he does not want it to be a stumbling block. And yet the miracle of the wedding wine is a wonderful account of something Jesus did.

I have heard it described as: "The water beheld its Creator, and blushed."

As has been mentioned here, all sin should be avoided. The Bible mentions that alcohol can lead to debauchery in other areas because our minds are dulled and our inhibitions lowered. There are many Biblical references about alcohol. Here is are just two:

I Peter 4:3. "For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries."

Luke 12: 42 - 46 "The Lord answered, “Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions.5 But suppose the servant says to himself, ‘My master is taking a long time in coming,’ and he then begins to beat the other servants, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk. The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers."

I think Christ is saying we should not take our eye off the ball - that being prepared for His coming. Drinking to excess does that. But, He does forgive when we ask Him to. I can tell when certain of my behaviors take me out of fellowship with Him. The Holy Spirit convicts us.

I have known many people who, while they might not drink, they have the sin of gossip. They feel they are doing nothing at all wrong discussing the sins of others, and to them, it seems to give them great pleasure to point out the sins of others.

All answers to life's questions are found in the Bible. If we meditate on the Word of God, we cannot help but be changed by that act.

23 posted on 11/25/2013 9:55:25 AM PST by SkyPilot
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

My wife’s grandfather could drink one glass of wine, and he would have to be carried to bed. I can drink a double Scotch and water, and remain perfectly sensible, which I believe is the standard Christians need to adhere to, keeping their wits about them. A number of Irish Christians might have another take on the subject, and I’ll leave it to them to work out a path between pub and church.


24 posted on 11/25/2013 10:11:35 AM PST by pallis
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

The body is the Temple of the Lord. When have you defiled the Temple?


25 posted on 11/25/2013 10:11:40 AM PST by Viennacon
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To: SkyPilot

I would also say any time you are deliberately poisoning yourself, that is an affront to God since your body is the Temple. That includes everything from giving your liver a kicking, to shoooting heroin into your eyeballs.

Of course, the aim is to either abstain or drink responsibly, neither of which are incredibly challenging. Alcohol can actually have many positive effects in moderation.


26 posted on 11/25/2013 10:15:30 AM PST by Viennacon
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

When the state law in effect says that you are. The bible says “obey every law and ordinance of man.”


27 posted on 11/25/2013 10:24:28 AM PST by xzins ( Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Those who truly support our troops pray for victory!)
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To: mj1234
LOL! Our preacher said that about 15 years ago!

“And That is when Jesus changed the water into pure unfermented grape juice!”

28 posted on 11/25/2013 10:29:47 AM PST by Ruy Dias de Bivar (Sometimes you need 7+ more ammo. LOTS MORE.)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

Somewhere between a buzz and a spew. Each person is different.

I’ve seen people get drunk on three Oklahoma 3.2 beers, and others it does not affect at all.


29 posted on 11/25/2013 10:31:42 AM PST by Ruy Dias de Bivar (Sometimes you need 7+ more ammo. LOTS MORE.)
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To: knarf

After talking with a fundamentalist friend of mine...i was told once saved always saved...there is no need to repent since salvation is never lost


30 posted on 11/25/2013 10:32:03 AM PST by bike800
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To: knarf

>>> WHY was Jesus baptized ?

Well, first you need to understand what baptism signifies.

It signifies death of the body and resurrection into eternal life.

There was no need for Jesus to repent... but repentance is not baptism. repentance was a prerequisite for sinners TO baptism.

Jesus was baptized as the FIRST one to be resurrected... the ONE who would lead the way from death unto life.

I will re-read your post before I answer your first question.


31 posted on 11/25/2013 10:32:33 AM PST by Safrguns (PM me if you like to play Minecraft!)
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To: OpusatFR

Is that before or after the eating the worm in the Mezcal?


32 posted on 11/25/2013 10:40:45 AM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: C. Edmund Wright; cuban leaf
I can see you recognize the first miracle wasn't turning multiple containers of multiple gallons of water into single malt.........."most" experts might say that's a good thing........

:-)

33 posted on 11/25/2013 10:42:38 AM PST by Lakeshark (Mr Reid, tear down this law!)
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To: bike800
There's a TON of unrepentant, born again Christians with no joy nor earthly blessings.

I'm the son of mr and mrs knarf

I can change my name to rufus t firefly, cut off my wangus, paint my body green, eat worms, live in a swamp and I will still be the son of mr and mrs knarf

They may not like to do it publically, but I am the product of their union and they must accept I am their son, or daughter, or swamp thing.

Your fundamentalist friend was correct, in the definition of the words being responded to (you forced him), but no born again believer WANTS to live an unrepentant life ... God is TOO good to just ignore like that.

34 posted on 11/25/2013 10:44:45 AM PST by knarf (I say things that are true .. I have no proof .. but they're true.)
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To: knarf

>>> NO where did I even come close to implying anything about salvation.

Born again Christians FREQUENTLY question themselves as to whether or not they were saved to begin with when they struggle with sin. It is Satan’s favorite way to disable a Christian’s witness via doubt.

In your post, you asked this question:
“So how much bad fruit, or lack of good fruit, does one have to show in order to be classified into the “never saved” to begin with or the merely “out of fellowship with Christ”? “

At the end of your post, you asked the question again:

“So, once again, how can one ever differentiate here in the here and now, and at this moment b/w those who are or will be known later as the “never saved” and the “fallen out of fellowship with Christ”?”

Your implication is that we cannot differentiate.
You also said that the term “out of fellowship” should be chunked (eliminated).
Therefore the implication is “Never Saved”.

Therefore, you DID imply something about salvation...
Whether you intended to or not.


35 posted on 11/25/2013 10:50:23 AM PST by Safrguns (PM me if you like to play Minecraft!)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist
"I believe that the term "out of fellowship with Christ" needs to be chunked."

Even after the Second coming, all of humanity still has another Millennium's worth of sanctification left before we can possibly be sinless.

The "out of fellowship" term is a very precise description of our relationship to God as believers, when we sin after having once placed faith alone in Christ alone. Even after we are saved, we find we still sin, even when we fully intend otherwise. This manifests the distinction between the old man and the new man.

Repentance doesn't mean turning away from disobedience to the law. It means changing our thinking back towards facing God through faith in what Christ provided us on the Cross.

36 posted on 11/25/2013 10:50:24 AM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: Safrguns
Ahhh the thought plickens ... !

That wasn't me.

37 posted on 11/25/2013 10:52:00 AM PST by knarf (I say things that are true .. I have no proof .. but they're true.)
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To: knarf

knarf....

I must apologize for clicking the wrong “reply link”.

I was responding to (and thought I was answering) the original post... not your immediate response (post 2)

Thought i was talking to post 1.


38 posted on 11/25/2013 10:52:51 AM PST by Safrguns (PM me if you like to play Minecraft!)
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To: Safrguns
I talk to the post a LOT ... and I get answers ...




and they're correct !

39 posted on 11/25/2013 10:55:08 AM PST by knarf (I say things that are true .. I have no proof .. but they're true.)
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To: mj1234

That interpret -that indeed it WAS all Grape juice-
nothing was fermented.


Not really. Ask them where they get that position from and you will be amazed.

One time in my tea-totalling AG church (about 1,000 folks in the congregation that particular morning) the pastor was reading the scripture on which he was basing his message. His message was not about wine or drinking, though wine was mentioned in the particular scripture. At the word “wine”, the pastor stopped, looked at the congregation, and said, (I paraphrase), “Folks, the word translated into wine here means fermented juice of grapes”. And then he went on with the reading and the lesson where it was never mentioned again.

I have no problem with being careful to correctly interpret scripture, but I learned long ago not to entertain a certain belief about scripture simply because other “Christians” believed it. Many “Christians” believe Mary died a virgin. Many “Christians” believe that if you don’t accept Christ you will consciously suffer unimaginable torment for eon on unending eon.

But with all of these issues, it is best to accept their teaching as what they believe and what might be true, but research it yourself. It’s absurdly easy in the day of the internet and search engines. Ignorance is even less of an excuse now than ever.


40 posted on 11/25/2013 10:56:45 AM PST by cuban leaf
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To: central_va

That is education at its best!


41 posted on 11/25/2013 10:58:32 AM PST by LibLieSlayer (FROM MY COLD, DEAD HANDS! BETTER DEAD THAN RED!)
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To: SkyPilot

In my church, teatotalling is the rule, though half the congregation smokes,and obesity is a major problem there. I smoke a cigar every few months and have a full bar at home, but I’m not obese.

I see all of these things as moderation things and I really don’t bring the subject up at church. If it every DOES come up and someone is condemning all drinkng, I ask them what is a muslim/mormon doing going to a Christian church.

It’s fine if someone has decided for themself that they should not drink (especially an alcoholic), but to call it a sin when others drink is ridiculous and very judgemental.


42 posted on 11/25/2013 11:02:19 AM PST by cuban leaf
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To: bike800

Absurd.

Even after being saved, we still find ourselves having sinned. The solution to postsalvation sin is the same as presalvation sin.

Christ died on the Cross for all the sins of the entire world. Sin has already been judged, but forgiveness doesn’t occur until we face God, turn in our thinking back towards Him, THROUGH faith in Christ (what He provided on the Cross), and by confessing our sins to Him,( while in faith in Christ and the Cross), then we are forgiven those sins.

The reason we repent and confess our sins, is so we are back in fellowship with Him. Then we are able to grow by His work in us as we study His Word. Until then, we aren’t receptive to the spiritual life.


43 posted on 11/25/2013 11:05:10 AM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: Cvengr

Oh heck! That was a worm?


44 posted on 11/25/2013 11:19:47 AM PST by OpusatFR
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To: C. Edmund Wright

***12-18 yo single malt…..in small, slow amounts…..***

Like the slow setting on the IV drip?


45 posted on 11/25/2013 11:23:38 AM PST by ResponseAbility (The truth of liberalism is the stupid can feel smart, the lazy entitled, and the immoral unashamed)
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To: ResponseAbility

maybe not THAT slow…..:)


46 posted on 11/25/2013 11:38:53 AM PST by C. Edmund Wright (Tokyo Rove is more than a name, it's a GREAT WEBSITE)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

To the meat of the question...
All of our walk is focused upon our thinking, though the body and flesh are involved in how He has made us a Temple for Him.

The first problem with alcohol and drunkenness, is our ability to perceive and then to discern our state of intoxication is the first thing impaired by drunkenness.

The work of God in us thrives on our ability in the human spirit and our soul to think through faith in Him.

When we imbibe to the pint of drunkenness, we fail to place our faith on Him and how He has made us, but instead upon ourselves and our work independent of Him.

There also are admonishments for preaching while intoxicated.


47 posted on 11/25/2013 11:44:22 AM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: Cvengr

This is about 2,000 years from Roman controlled territory?

There was “must” which had little alcohol

Then there was the custom of watering down the wine by half for women and half again for children (water was not often purified in those days) when they weren’t just given juice or something.


48 posted on 11/25/2013 11:46:32 AM PST by GeronL (Extra Large Cheesy Over-Stuffed Hobbit)
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar

Best counter I’ve seen was the remark in Scripture of the guest at the wedding who exclaimed, Why did you hide the best wine until last? Custom was for the best wine to be served first, then after people had a few drinks, imbibed, and not quite as discerning, feed them the lesser wine and nobody would know the difference.

IMHO, while daily consumption may have been a grape juice, when they sat and imbibed with wine,...it was probably a better wine than we drink today.


49 posted on 11/25/2013 11:51:35 AM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: Safrguns

You bring up a good point regarding overweight believers.

On the contrary, what blood sugar level would be considered sinful?

Many with either too low or too high of blood sugar levels tend to lose their patience and are moody. Is it sinful? Known sin or an unknown sin?

Could apply to diabetics. Even the thin ones.


50 posted on 11/25/2013 11:58:17 AM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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