Posted on 11/25/2013 9:03:35 AM PST by Laissez-faire capitalist
The Apostle Paul said to not become drunk on wine, but to be filled with the Spirit. Obviously, there is a point at which one can imbibe a certain amount of alcohol, be it from fermented grapes, fermenting honey, or whatever - and become drunk.
I imagine that some people, somewhere, can drink one beer for the first time and become drunk - a rarity indeed - but nonetheless not outside the realm of possiblity. And so, by drinking that first beer, they become drunk --- and sin. Others may say that it takes x amount (be it from wine, beer, hard liquor, etc) to become drunk (i.e. a 6 pack). Others may say that it takes x amount of the aforementioned times 1.5 (9 beers). Others may say 2 times x - a 12 pack...
Is it different for each person? .
Can some people say "I wasn't drunk, I was just slightly tipsy, or somewhat tipsy, and thus was not drunk and therefore do not need to repent of the sin of drunkenness." Who is to say? Do they alone know the truth?
The best thing to do is avoid alcohol altogether.
Now some may say that if this road is trod that it could lead to a host of "maybe I shouldn't do this or that" and thus it becomes a question of necessity.
Is clothing necessary? Yes. Is food necessary? Yes. And on and on... And so, some things in life aren't necessary. Is alcohol necessary?
Can someone become addicted to a host of things? Certainly. Some are probably addicted to social websites - how is that any different from being addicted to cigarettes? Sure, certain addiction may have different levels of consquence, but addictions of any sort aren't pleasing to God.
And, once again, I will add to this - for those who missed it the first two times:
A young man was heard accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. A few years later he went off to Bible college, graduated, and became a youth pastor not long thereafter. Around two years later he fell into sin, deep sin, whatever. Half of the church thought that he was never saved to begin with, and the other half thought that he had merely "fallen out of fellowship" with Christ, but was nonetheless still saved.
So how much bad fruit, or lack of good fruit, does one have to show in order to be classified into the "never saved" to begin with or the merely "out of fellowship with Christ"? X amount of sin? X amount plus one act of drunkenness? X amount of a particular sin, plus one act of drunkenness, plus one time of fornication to put them "over the top" and into the realm of the "never saved"? And how much of a time period must elapse between each sin(s)?
Yes, Paul the Apostle knew that certain of the Thessalonians were saved, and appaerently the Apostle John knew that certain were saved when he wrote to them, but they were writing the scriptures. The Bible says that the scriptures are God breathed, and Paul wrote that the scriptures were written when the Holy Spirit moved upon men.
And thus it wasn't Paul or John who knew who was or wasn't saved, but God alone --- He revealed this to them as they wrote the scriptures. But since there are supposedly no Apostles around anymore, who is there for God to reveal things like this to? And secondly, the canon of scripture is closed.
I believe that we know personally if our hearts are or aren't right with Jesus Christ. I know when God has pricked my heart on several occasions. As to being able to say with absolute certainty whether or not the person sitting next to me or you in the pew is or isn't saved - who is to know?
I believe that the term "out of fellowship with Christ" needs to be chunked.
If a person is in sin, claims to be saved, then someone should follow the scriptures and go to that person and tell them that they need to repent. If they refuse, then take a second person, (an elder of the church). If they refuse to repent, let the local body of believers they belong to decide to tell them that they refuse to repent and are thus disfellowshipped. Sure, they can still come to that church church, but they (as Jesus said) would be treated like a heathen man.
And so, if that youth pastor person ultimately refused to repent... in the end, was he never truly saved to begin with? And if so, how could they he duped the church for so long?
If his departure from the church was his unmasking, who is to say that he will never return and truly repent, thus showing that a declaration of him being never saved to begin with was actually premature, as they later repented, and thus showed that they were saved in the first place, and had not duped the church, but had fallen into sin?
So, once again, how can one ever differentiate here in the here and now, and at this moment b/w those who are or will be known later as the "never saved" and the "fallen out of fellowship with Christ"?
Interesting concept, since in the "first miracle" - at the wedding feast - it was apparently okay for the guests to really party down - and yet, in other situations….driving, at work, etc, the bar would be far lower.
NO where did I even come close to implying anything about salvation.
But if you want to play switcho-change-o ... WHY was Jesus baptized ?
I have heard it described as: "The water beheld its Creator, and blushed."
As has been mentioned here, all sin should be avoided. The Bible mentions that alcohol can lead to debauchery in other areas because our minds are dulled and our inhibitions lowered. There are many Biblical references about alcohol. Here is are just two:
I Peter 4:3. "For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries."
Luke 12: 42 - 46 "The Lord answered, “Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions.5 But suppose the servant says to himself, ‘My master is taking a long time in coming,’ and he then begins to beat the other servants, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk. The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers."
I think Christ is saying we should not take our eye off the ball - that being prepared for His coming. Drinking to excess does that. But, He does forgive when we ask Him to. I can tell when certain of my behaviors take me out of fellowship with Him. The Holy Spirit convicts us.
I have known many people who, while they might not drink, they have the sin of gossip. They feel they are doing nothing at all wrong discussing the sins of others, and to them, it seems to give them great pleasure to point out the sins of others.
All answers to life's questions are found in the Bible. If we meditate on the Word of God, we cannot help but be changed by that act.
My wife’s grandfather could drink one glass of wine, and he would have to be carried to bed. I can drink a double Scotch and water, and remain perfectly sensible, which I believe is the standard Christians need to adhere to, keeping their wits about them. A number of Irish Christians might have another take on the subject, and I’ll leave it to them to work out a path between pub and church.
The body is the Temple of the Lord. When have you defiled the Temple?
I would also say any time you are deliberately poisoning yourself, that is an affront to God since your body is the Temple. That includes everything from giving your liver a kicking, to shoooting heroin into your eyeballs.
Of course, the aim is to either abstain or drink responsibly, neither of which are incredibly challenging. Alcohol can actually have many positive effects in moderation.
When the state law in effect says that you are. The bible says “obey every law and ordinance of man.”
“And That is when Jesus changed the water into pure unfermented grape juice!”
Somewhere between a buzz and a spew. Each person is different.
I’ve seen people get drunk on three Oklahoma 3.2 beers, and others it does not affect at all.
After talking with a fundamentalist friend of mine...i was told once saved always saved...there is no need to repent since salvation is never lost
>>> WHY was Jesus baptized ?
Well, first you need to understand what baptism signifies.
It signifies death of the body and resurrection into eternal life.
There was no need for Jesus to repent... but repentance is not baptism. repentance was a prerequisite for sinners TO baptism.
Jesus was baptized as the FIRST one to be resurrected... the ONE who would lead the way from death unto life.
I will re-read your post before I answer your first question.
Is that before or after the eating the worm in the Mezcal?
:-)
I'm the son of mr and mrs knarf
I can change my name to rufus t firefly, cut off my wangus, paint my body green, eat worms, live in a swamp and I will still be the son of mr and mrs knarf
They may not like to do it publically, but I am the product of their union and they must accept I am their son, or daughter, or swamp thing.
Your fundamentalist friend was correct, in the definition of the words being responded to (you forced him), but no born again believer WANTS to live an unrepentant life ... God is TOO good to just ignore like that.
>>> NO where did I even come close to implying anything about salvation.
Born again Christians FREQUENTLY question themselves as to whether or not they were saved to begin with when they struggle with sin. It is Satan’s favorite way to disable a Christian’s witness via doubt.
In your post, you asked this question:
“So how much bad fruit, or lack of good fruit, does one have to show in order to be classified into the “never saved” to begin with or the merely “out of fellowship with Christ”? “
At the end of your post, you asked the question again:
“So, once again, how can one ever differentiate here in the here and now, and at this moment b/w those who are or will be known later as the “never saved” and the “fallen out of fellowship with Christ”?”
Your implication is that we cannot differentiate.
You also said that the term “out of fellowship” should be chunked (eliminated).
Therefore the implication is “Never Saved”.
Therefore, you DID imply something about salvation...
Whether you intended to or not.
Even after the Second coming, all of humanity still has another Millennium's worth of sanctification left before we can possibly be sinless.
The "out of fellowship" term is a very precise description of our relationship to God as believers, when we sin after having once placed faith alone in Christ alone. Even after we are saved, we find we still sin, even when we fully intend otherwise. This manifests the distinction between the old man and the new man.
Repentance doesn't mean turning away from disobedience to the law. It means changing our thinking back towards facing God through faith in what Christ provided us on the Cross.
That wasn't me.
knarf....
I must apologize for clicking the wrong “reply link”.
I was responding to (and thought I was answering) the original post... not your immediate response (post 2)
Thought i was talking to post 1.
and they're correct !
That interpret -that indeed it WAS all Grape juice-
nothing was fermented.
One time in my tea-totalling AG church (about 1,000 folks in the congregation that particular morning) the pastor was reading the scripture on which he was basing his message. His message was not about wine or drinking, though wine was mentioned in the particular scripture. At the word “wine”, the pastor stopped, looked at the congregation, and said, (I paraphrase), “Folks, the word translated into wine here means fermented juice of grapes”. And then he went on with the reading and the lesson where it was never mentioned again.
I have no problem with being careful to correctly interpret scripture, but I learned long ago not to entertain a certain belief about scripture simply because other “Christians” believed it. Many “Christians” believe Mary died a virgin. Many “Christians” believe that if you don’t accept Christ you will consciously suffer unimaginable torment for eon on unending eon.
But with all of these issues, it is best to accept their teaching as what they believe and what might be true, but research it yourself. It’s absurdly easy in the day of the internet and search engines. Ignorance is even less of an excuse now than ever.
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