Skip to comments.Cardinal Dolan: If Not for Religious Violations, Church Would Have Been Obamacare 'Cheerleaders'
Posted on 12/03/2013 12:41:03 AM PST by 2ndDivisionVet
Appearing on NBCs Meet the Press with David Gregory, Cardinal Timothy Dolan of New York said that the Catholic Church ideally would have backed Obamacare but for President Obamas attempt to cram down violations of the First Amendment on Obamacares back. We bishops have been really kind of in a tough place because were for universal, comprehensive, life-affirming healthcare, Dolan said, emphasizing that church support for universal government healthcare dated back to 1919 in the United States. So were not Johnny-come-latelies. Weve been asking for reform in healthcare for a long time.
Dolan added, however, that the Obamacare mandate which stifled the religious expression of Catholic businessowners had sunk Catholic support for Obamacare. Where we started bristling and saying, Uh-oh, first of all this isnt comprehensive, because its excluding immigrant and its excluding the unborn baby, so we began to bristle at that.(continued)
(Excerpt) Read more at breitbart.com ...
and, welcome to one of the biggest reasons I recently dumped the Catholic Church, Dolan, you fleabag!
Hard to know what point he is making.
Does he think this will make the Obammunists stop cramming down the violations of the 1st Amendment?
And, why would the Catholic church want to abrogate it’s own historical role to the government under any circumstances?
its excluding immigrant and its excluding the unborn baby,
No Im sure the illegal aliens are first in line...
and abortion is not excluded...
FUCD. You phony pompous rich fraud.
Forget all the other issues. Forget forced re-distribution of wealth. He is all for that. Forget the lies used to pass this. Forget the rationing and death panels. Forget the cancelled plans. Forget all of that. Those don’t apply to him.
If “the bishops” support Obamacare, then Dolan is unintentionally condemning Rome for its wretched choices for bishops for this country. Obamacare is evil—quite apart from the HHS Abortion Mandate.
Dolan is a loathsome, shallow, worldly, big-mouthed, cowardly blowhard.
Such a statement to make the Church appear reasonable is littering this nation with a wasteland of lies.
Well - this is nice to know. I thought the US was infiltrated to the point of no return - now The Church!
AS I read everyone’s comments, I concur 100% - and the one about leaving The Church...well...my Children will get their first communion done, for The Church is that of Jesus Christ and that historical connection is something personal to make...but if The Church continues down this dangerous road with allying with darkness — then I must step away and hold my faith privately and away from such until Christ cleans his house...how sad it has all come to this.
It has already reached the point of no return in the Presbyterian and Methodist Churches.
The Catholic/Orthodox complex of churches has seen embracing government in its mission vision since the 4th century. Some Protestants went along with that too, but others begged to differ. I think it’s excellent that Obama has served up something that the Catholic church can’t swallow! I hope that gets them to rethink what looks this sad historical presumption to baptize Caesar into Christ, and to concentrate on grass roots faith again. Grass roots faith is always where the various parts of the church have proven the most powerful — when the regime absolutely hated it. It has happened in Orthodox, Catholic, and Protestant branches alike.
“History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government.”
Born and raised Catholic, dumped it many years ago.
The Catholic church was too, too much about the Catholic church and far to little about the Lord, plus a lot of other reasons and cover ups we continually hear reports of.
I really shake my head and wonder about it now.
All I can say is may the Lord save it for those who are still Catholics and I mean that sincerely.
If you are hoping “a bunch of people” (whatever the sign over the door) is going to keep your faith going, you’ve put your faith in the wrong place.
And this is a pan-Christian issue. Protestants have it as well as Catholics and Orthodox.
Letting worship organizations go visibly looey like this is one way God emphasizes that they shouldn’t be “idolized.” Denomination issues existed from the early days... “I am of [whomever].” People put the ultimate fondness they should have had for the Lord, onto their clergy. It is an understandable error, but not to constantly try to correct it is wrong too.
A church that got full of itself is why Martin Luther eventually walked away, and why earlier on the Orthodox family of churches bid farewell to Rome. If it were not for the promise of God sustaining these pride-ridden worship bodies (and the problem persists to this day) they would have winked out. But it was not worldliness that kept them going. We will look in vain for a worship body that doesn’t have some badness. What we are well to look for is a local worship body where in spite of the badness, Christ visibly manifests in the life of the congregation, and it may be found to meet in some nondescript, homely place rather than some grand cathedral.
I'm beginning to think that Cardinal Dolan and Vice President Biden have a "gaffe competition" going on between them. Or maybe not, as you'll see at the end.
The headline is truly what Cardinal Dolan said of the Obamacare disaster that is unfolding before our very eyes. It's just that teensy thing about the murder of babies that gives them a cause for pause. Sane people have been sounding that clarion call all along, but the progressives in the US hierarchy refuse to accept it. Here's a key principle: when we ascribe to any governmental entity the powers and authority that Obamacare (and socialism) does, those sitting in positions of authority will become giddy and arrogant with their power. They will see themselves as de facto deities and believe they have the prerogatives of the same. In fact, we saw that in the 1970s. It's no accident that Roe versus Wade was handed down after the Welfare State became firmly ensconced as a way of life. Give a governmental entity enormous power and it will assume an enormous appetite for more. Our Founding Fathers were deathly afraid of this scenario happening and sought to put checks and balances within the US Constitution. The progressives in the USCCB worked feverishly with their cohorts outside the Church, using foolish prelates like Cardinal Dolan as their foils for their plots. They succeeded.
Only now does Dolan seem to think something amiss, but still he persists in his denial of the horrible evil that is Obamacare. At least I can only hope it's denial. The cynical - and realistic - side of me believes that Cardinal Dolan knew all along that we'd all be forced to pay for the murders of babies, and is putting on this "bristling" schtick to mollify those of us who have been protesting all along. I believe he's fully culpable for the furtherance of Obamacare via his allowance of the Obama photo-op at the Al Smith Dinner. His connivance in this mess is no less than that of Sister Carol Keehan as she wields her Pen of Perfidy.
…and, welcome to one of the biggest reasons I recently dumped the Catholic Church, Dolan, you fleabag!
If my faith was dependent upon the fidelity of the US bishops to traditional Catholic teaching, I would have become an atheist many, many years ago.
If the Cardinal thinks about that sentence, he must obviously conclude once and for all why government enforced socialism or communism never works.
Golly, what a shock.
I’ve been saying the same thing about the Catholic Church all along. If they had gotten their little carve-out, they’d be backers of the bill.
The Catholic Church is all about the “social justice” mentality. The recent missive from the Pope backs this up.
And the failure of the Church to do anything about “Catholics” who back abortion shows me that their so-called opposition to abortion is all talk and no walk.
There are bishops and there are bishops. For some reason, Dolan is constantly trying to suck up to the government. He obviously thinks that dictatorial socialized medicine is popular and that the Church would be perceived as a stick in the mud, retrograde, anti-Obama force if he opposed it. He’s been a real disappointment in New York., which needed somebody strong and unashamed, but got a boot licker.
Nobody objects to providing health care for the poor, and the Church was doing it long before governments got involved. However, having a complete government takeover of health care is not synonymous with providing health care to the poor, but with having government take over every aspect of the individual’s life and make moral and ethical decisions for everyone, Catholic or not. Dolan is an extremely shallow thinker and is, for unknown reasons, terrified of offending Obama.
Didn’t the JFK welfare scheme get attaboys from a lot of Catholic clergy too?
Maybe this is a bit sardonic of me, a Crazy Evangelical, to say... but please, Roman Catholic Church, if you really must egg on a government to do philanthropy, something that isn’t in the biblical mission, be sure at least that it really DOES believe in God? Because otherwise yes that government will become its own idol.
The idea of a government as a positive redemptive channel is something that churches have a hard time getting rid of. Governments do law well. But being an inevitable mix of believers and unbelievers, they can’t do gospel well.
There is no other person or persons that can set you straight with the Lord other than yourself.
Those that find need of churches, I respect and understand, whatever it takes to bring you closer to the lord, but it is not my way.
Uh, no, sorry. Protestant churches, on the whole, don’t view government as a redemptive channel. This was part and parcel of the Reformation - splitting government from churches.
The Catholic Church likes to think that they’re in a position to elect or appoint governments. That was their position for a thousand years in Europe, and they were perfectly happy to go to war to defend it.
I’m glad you have been granted the stuff to carry out a solo faith walk. There is always a part of one’s walk that is so deep that nobody else can really see it, though we try in vain to describe it. However when being away from an earnest worship congregation is not forced on you (like it was for John on Patmos) it is unwise to forsake that, or putting it positively, wise to avail yourself of it. The others become as mirrors unto you, flawed though they be, and you likewise. There is a power in communal praise that surpasses that of solo praise.
Protestant followings have been a mixed bag here. But in general the more independent the congregation, the less likely it sees government as a panacea.
I used to be Catholic, then later I “test drove” a few other faiths. I’ve come to the conclusion that faith is and should be an individual thing. Seems to me it’s more important to do right in life than to spend an hour or so once a week in an ornate building. These days it seems that organized religions are responsible for the problems in this world — not the solution.
I don't know about that, but I am reasonably sure that the LBJ "Great Society" was likely widely lauded.
A couple of examples of why they are dead wrong:
48. These general observations also apply to the role of the State in the economic sector. Economic activity, especially the activity of a market economy, cannot be conducted in an institutional, juridical or political vacuum. On the contrary, it presupposes sure guarantees of individual freedom and private property, as well as a stable currency and efficient public services. Hence the principle task of the State is to guarantee this security, so that those who work and produce can enjoy the fruits of their labours and thus feel encouraged to work efficiently and honestly. The absence of stability, together with the corruption of public officials and the spread of improper sources of growing rich and of easy profits deriving from illegal or purely speculative activities, constitutes one of the chief obstacles to development and to the economic order.
Another task of the State is that of overseeing and directing the exercise of human rights in the economic sector. However, primary responsibility in this area belongs not to the State but to individuals and to the various groups and associations which make up society. The State could not directly ensure the right to work for all its citizens unless it controlled every aspect of economic life and restricted the free initiative of individuals. This does not mean, however, that the State has no competence in this domain, as was claimed by those who argued against any rules in the economic sphere. Rather, the State has a duty to sustain business activities by creating conditions which will ensure job opportunities, by stimulating those activities where they are lacking or by supporting them in moments of crisis.
The State has the further right to intervene when particular monopolies create delays or obstacles to development. In addition to the tasks of harmonizing and guiding development, in exceptional circumstances the State can also exercise a substitute function, when social sectors or business systems are too weak or are just getting under way, and are not equal to the task at hand. Such supplementary interventions, which are justified by urgent reasons touching the common good, must be as brief as possible, so as to avoid removing permanently from society and business systems the functions which are properly theirs, and so as to avoid enlarging excessively the sphere of State intervention to the detriment of both economic and civil freedom.
In recent years the range of such intervention has vastly expanded, to the point of creating a new type of State, the so-called "Welfare State". This has happened in some countries in order to respond better to many needs and demands, by remedying forms of poverty and deprivation unworthy of the human person. However, excesses and abuses, especially in recent years, have provoked very harsh criticisms of the Welfare State, dubbed the "Social Assistance State". Malfunctions and defects in the Social Assistance State are the result of an inadequate understanding of the tasks proper to the State. Here again the principle of subsidiarity must be respected: a community of a higher order should not interfere in the internal life of a community of a lower order, depriving the latter of its functions, but rather should support it in case of need and help to coordinate its activity with the activities of the rest of society, always with a view to the common good.100
By intervening directly and depriving society of its responsibility, the Social Assistance State leads to a loss of human energies and an inordinate increase of public agencies, which are dominated more by bureaucratic ways of thinking than by concern for serving their clients, and which are accompanied by an enormous increase in spending. In fact, it would appear that needs are best understood and satisfied by people who are closest to them and who act as neighbours to those in need. It should be added that certain kinds of demands often call for a response which is not simply material but which is capable of perceiving the deeper human need. One thinks of the condition of refugees, immigrants, the elderly, the sick, and all those in circumstances which call for assistance, such as drug abusers: all these people can be helped effectively only by those who offer them genuine fraternal support, in addition to the necessary care.
John Paul II, Centesimus Annus
I have NEVER HEARD a US bishop preach on the above (I have read writings from a small minority who have talked about the above type of concept...but they are in the minority).
Or, more recently:
…The State which would provide everything, absorbing everything into itself, would ultimately become a mere bureaucracy incapable of guaranteeing the very thing which the suffering personevery personneeds: namely, loving personal concern. We do not need a State which regulates and controls everything, but a State which, in accordance with the principle of subsidiarity, generously acknowledges and supports initiatives arising from the different social forces and combines spontaneity with closeness to those in need…
Benedict XVI, Deus Caritas Est, 28
And there are other examples, but those are two recent examples.
Even an old radical like Dorothy Day (foundress of the "Catholic Worker")had it more right than the current crop of US Bishops:
We believe that social security legislation, now balled as a great victory for the poor and for the worker, is a great defeat for Christianity. It is an acceptance of the Idea of force and compulsion. It is an acceptance of Cain's statement, on the part of the employer. "Am I my brother's keeper?" Since the employer can never be trusted to give a family wage, nor take care of the worker as he takes care of his machine when it is idle, the state must enter in and compel help on his part. Of course, economists say that business cannot afford to act on Christian principles. It Is impractical, uneconomic. But it is generally coming to be accepted that such a degree of centralization as ours is impractical, and that there must be decentralization. In other words, business has made a mess of things, and the state has had to enter in to rescue the worker from starvation.
Of course, Pope Pius XI said that, when such a crisis came about, in unemployment, fire, flood, earthquake, etc., the state had to enter in and help.
But we in our generation have more and more come to consider the state as bountiful Uncle Sam. "Uncle Sam will take care of it all. The race question, the labor question, the unemployment question." We will all be registered and tabulated and employed or put on a dole, and shunted from clinic to birth control clinic. "What right have people who have no work to have a baby?" How many poor Catholic mothers heard that during those grim years before the war!
"More About Holy Poverty. Which Is Voluntary Poverty.", The Catholic Worker, Feb 1945
There is such a HUGE disconnect between the last 30 years or so worth of US bishops and the Holy See as to boggle the mind. Like I said, I can fully sympathize with the OP's decision, though I would never take that decision myself.
If the preacher isn’t preaching that it should be personal, then you are wise to find another preacher who does. Here’s a big ole clue: God is omnipresent, so you can’t keep Him locked in that church building.
I agree that they don’t all go in for this stuff. And it’s bad when they do. It’s either having unrealistic expectations of Caesar, or even worse, bowing down to Caesar.
Anyhow, wisdom is needed for discernment, you can’t just go for any old thing that got cranked out of the organization somewhere.
This is exactly why Dear Leader and his regime hate the Tea Party Movement as well because it a a genuine grass roots movement! I agree with you that the Church needs to concentrate on grass roots faith again. The hierarchy has grown much too full of themselves and they're all too comfortable cozying up with government officials and the rich and powerful. Dolan is NY governor Cuomo's bishop and looks the other way when Cuomo receives the Eucharist, when the man should be denied it because he's committed mortal sin by actively promoting the infanticide of abortion! Dolan knows this, but cozies up to the guy anyways! In Dolan's blog on the diocesan website, I addressed this very issue to Dolan and didn't get an answer from the Cardinal and my post was removed.
If Cuomo is abusing communion that way, taking it while not making a bona fide effort to recognize Christ (and it’s a mighty poor simulacrum of Christ that supposedly wants these abortions) then he reaps a curse. Maybe it has to happen to these Democrats so they will fall out of the picture by God’s own hand.
Perhaps. Cuomo is an ambitious, evil man and he could redeem himself by confessing his mortal sins and sincerely vow to sin no more, but he's done the exact opposite and promotes abortion while Dolan doesn't have the cajones to stand up to him and publicly excommunicate him. You can't be a Catholic and support abortion, but if you're powerful enough, the bishops will look the other way.
I really don’t need a preacher to tell me that. And if God is omnipresent, why am I spending time worshiping Him in a structure?
Well if we believe the bible warning, we know this is going to blow back on Cuomo... and while God is longsuffering, He does not put up with this kind of blasphemy forever.
Dolan is a cardinal fool. He is not The Catholic Church. Dumping the Church because of the idiocy of a particular or even many clergy is a sign that there is no religious commitment but rather a social and self interested one.
Preachers remind us of stuff... they are inspired by God too. They have a biblical role. I listen to a preacher on Sundays and sometimes Wednesdays and usually get blessed, because he sincerely gives himself to the Lord.
That is a really good description!
For myself, I feel the closest to the Lord when I'm by myself, talking to him and praying to him.
Probably the purist focus and concentration I ever attain.
I was a Catholic that had problems with the church and basically turned agnostic as a young *know it all*.
I was young and very stupid to say the least, problems with the church should not have equated to problems with the Lord.
The Lord brought me back to him, nobody else but the Lord.
Have never forgotten that fact and it kind of set my course.
I guess it’s OK to trample everything and everyone with one exception.
I wonder what he meant by, “...church support for universal government healthcare dated back to 1919 in the United States.”
That’s a quote from Brietbart.com, not the Cardinal. So I’m wondering what happened in 1919, and why (apparently) the Cardinal believes this is when the Church in America stated to support reform of healthcare.
I don’t think there were even any insurance companies back then, were there?
I wonder what that date refers to; is it some bishop’s conference or what? If I can ever find the time, I should look into that.
Catholic clergy live in an ivory tower like intellectuals. They have no concept of what ordinary people go through every day. They harp on taking care of the poor, but they don’t understand that just because a person has a job or a home doesn’t mean he has gobs of money to give.
My aunt is still a practicing Catholic. Her diocese assesses a certain amount of money each household must give yearly to the diocese over and above the weekly collection. My aunt told her assessment next year has risen to around a thousand dollars. My aunt is 82, a widow, living on a fixed income. She told the pastor she doesn’t know if she can meet that figure, even though payment can be spread out monthly. The pastor has tried to make her feel guilty for not meeting her obligation. I told my aunt she should give what she can afford, and if her pastor or the bishop don’t like it, they can kiss her backside.
The Church has moved away from its mission. It’s now an extortion racket.
Anyhow, when Christians meet to discuss things, they do help encourage, guide, and warn one another. It’s the meeting that matters. With modern technology now it can happen over internet as well as face to face.
That sure twists the biblical concept of “cheerful giving.” And shouldn’t service count too?
I strongly believe in ‘social justice’, and I think most of us here do. The problem is how you define ‘social justice’, and what you think the best way to work for it is.
Personally, I believe that the future success of the Republican party, and a broader base for conservatism depends heavily on making this case and embracing the type of approach to social justice that is truly ‘just’. We have let the left characterize themselves as the champions of social justice - the defenders of ‘Tiny Tim’, and characterize conservatives as ‘Scrooges’, but this is not even close to reality, and we cannot let it stand any longer.
From a Catholic perspective, if this requires debating and challenging the clergy about the human spirit, and freedom, and about how Catholics and other religions have been treated under communism and other totalitarian regimes who gained power by claiming they were for ‘social justice’, so be it.
When inner city youth are brought up in gang-infested neighborhoods, don't finish school, don't get the kinds of education that helps them to be proud productive successful members of society, and don't have father's in the household etc., it is not ‘social justice’ to perpetuate this by just giving government money without attempting to address the greater spiritual issues, decline of the family, and moral decay that is actually robbing whole generations of a truly happy and productive life.
It is not social justice when someone like Hugo Chavez uses class envy and class warfare to gain the power to confiscate property and wealth from those who have worked hard for it, and who have the capacity to contribute to social justice by providing jobs, upward mobility, and to be beacon of hope for those who believe if they work hard they can also achieve these things.
Marxism, socialism, communism, are all antithetical to true social justice. All of them.
‘Universal Healthcare’, as routinely promoted by the left, is not ‘social justice’ - for many, many reasons. All who need treatment should receive it. No one who is ill should be turned away. Most physicians, nurses etc. that I know feel this way, and would volunteer their time to make this a reality. The things routinely proposed by the left will take away the ability to get treatment from many, define who gets what treatments, and will cost more and therefore absolutely require rationing - as decided by bureaucrats and not physicians. That's just for starters.
You can't elevate the human spirit and guide it towards greater compassion and charity by stealing away freedom and attempting to engineer societal behavior and calling it ‘social justice’.
Religion and politics never mix. This is merely another glaring example of that.
So Dolan is all for every other, non-birth control/abortion aspect of Obamacare, including millions of Americans’ loss of health care coverage, rationed care for the elderly and government control of treatment strategies.
This, along with that church’s strident support of amnesty, are poisonous for this country. I haven’t been a Catholic since the 1980s and am never going back.
It's been apparent for quite some time that Dolan gets "a tingle" from Barry. I guess he'd rather follow the antiCHRIST.
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