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Four Factors That Fuel the Crisis in Marriage and Family
Archdiocese of Washington ^ | 12/2/2013 | Msgr. Charles Pope

Posted on 12/03/2013 2:35:53 AM PST by markomalley

Many of you are aware that there is an Extraordinary Synod planned in Rome on the family.   There is surely no hiding the fact that the family is in real crisis, at least in the modern Western World, if not throughout many other parts as well. We do well to ponder the reasons and roots of this crisis, and develop strategies to begin to address the many problems.

At the recent Bishops Conference Meeting here in America, Cardinal Sean O’Malley made some remarks that I would like to draw upon, even as I make some remarks of my own. Basing my reflections on the Cardinal’s remarks, it would seem that there are at least four fundamental factors that contribute to our current difficulties regarding marriage and family. Lets look at each of them in turn, even if briefly and also interweave the Cardinals remarks.

I. Family history -  Two critical factors came together very difficult years of the late 1960s which together have had a very destructive effect on Holy Matrimony and the family.

The sexual revolution which began in the late 1950s picked up steam into the 60s and went boldly public in the year 1968, with the so-called “Summer of Love” in places like Haight Ashbury Park in San Francisco, and on many other college campuses and similar places.  At that time there were many who boldly shed any pretense of shame or guilt regarding open sexual sin and unchastity. What people used to whisper about as something shocking, was now boldly celebrated by increasing numbers in the culture.

The following year, in 1969 the first no-fault divorce laws began to be passed. Divorce, which until that time had been a difficult and lengthy process in America, now become something that could be accomplished in a matter of weeks.

These two very crucial events began a process which rather dramatically and quickly eroded Matrimony and and the family, such that we are now into the second, and in some cases, third generation of younger people, who have never known a world is stable marriages, and two-parent families. Large numbers of young people have never experienced living with both their father and mother for the duration of their formative years. More and more of them have no real models of faithful, stable, traditional marriages to look to. Is very clear, that without these sorts of models, even young people who want to embrace traditional marriage, struggle to do so, lacking any experience how exactly is done.

For all the Church’s attempts at marriage preparation, and pre-Cana classes, without strong family models it is hard to apply whatever might be learned in such classes and formation.

Cardinal O’Malley says, Half of the children born to that demographic [working class families] are born out of wedlock,” a statistic that Cardinal O’Malley said would have been “inconceivable” a few decades ago. [1]

Indeed, in the African American community which I have largely served, in 1961 (the year of my birth) 80% of Black children were raised in two-parent families, Today that number is 20%. The statistics in the wider culture, as noted, are not much better and continue to drop. The change is nothing short of astonishing.

All of this leads to a dynamic of family history and personal experience that are not promising for traditional Marriage or the family.

II. Fornication -  In the current cultural setting, following the sexual revolution that came out in the open in 1968, premarital sex, and cohabitation, have become epidemic. This has had a number of deleterious effects on Holy Matrimony and the family.

In the first place it takes away one of the stronger incentives to marriage that existed in the past, namely the desire of sexual intimacy and pleasure. Marriage in the culture of that time provided a context in which sexual intimacy was not only considered legitimate, but also honored and esteemed. Now, with the explosion of promiscuity and with such behavior no longer shunned, Marriage looses one of its draws. Most young people can obtain the sex they desire without the once demanded admission requirements.

Secondly a whole host of social ills accompanies fornication, and cohabitation (once called “shacking up” or living in sin). And these social evils and ills negatively impact Holy Matrimony.

Abortion has exploded on the scene. And whereas in the past a child conceived before marriage would move the couple to the sacred altar, now recourse to abortion, and even more viciously the expectation by men that women should “rid” them of the problem by abortion is the prevailing attitude.

AIDS, and sexually transmitted diseases like herpes, also make people less desirable as marriage partners.

And of course teenage pregnancy, single motherhood, etc, make many women less desirable for or prone to marriage and further the expectation that men should be able to move about sexually without commitment or responsibility.

Cohabitation also “permits” couples to play house, and the unwritten rule is that they can come as go as they please with little social repercussion to them.

Cardinal O’Malley says, The whole notion of family is so undercut by the cohabitation mentality, and these social trends are having a tremendous impact on the working-class communities who were once the backbone of the Church…This shift away from the bearing of children within wedlock is the “biggest threat to marriage. [2]

God lists fornication as among the sins that exclude one from the Kingdom of Heaven (e.g. Eph 5:3-9; 1 Cor. 6:9-11, inter al). Given the dreadful impact fornication has on Holy Matrimony and the Family, one can see why God takes sins of these sorts seriously. Of course the ones who pay the price for all this adult sexual misconduct, are children.

God  links chastity to respect for Marriage, and promiscuity He regards as a dishonoring of Marriage: Marriage is to be held in honor among all, and the marriage bed is to be undefiled; for God will judge fornicators and adulterers  (Heb 13:4).

III. Finances - In this matter Cardinal O’Malley says succinctly: Part of the problems are economic…Our educational system is so expensive, people graduate from college or graduate school facing huge debts. If you have a $150,000 debt when you graduate law school, are you going to marry a girl that has a $130,000 debt and start off your marriage with over a quarter-million dollars’ debt? So people are postponing marriage – are postponing a decision to go into the seminary or religious life – because they’re saddled under this tremendous debts which former generations didn’t have. [3]

We have discussed and debated on this blog before the notion that college is overrated and obscenely expensive. And for all the talk from the social liberals who dominate faculties and administration in these colleges, they seldom lift a finger to cut the costs of their overrated product. Instead they scold us for not caring enough about the poor and their burdens, while they live quite well off the future income of their students who are increasingly too poor to marry or raise children.

Almost no one among those who lecture us about justice will talk about this.

Student debt is becoming a huge factor in postponing marriage and also vocations to the priesthood and religious life.

IV. Formation struggles - Cardinal O’Malley  says the Church needs “better marriage preparation” and outreach to help young people recover an understanding of marriage. He says the Church needs to “catechize our young people and instill in them a sense of vocation, and also to help them understand what courtship is about.”

He adds that this becomes even more important for: In combination with the misunderstanding of marriage, lack of attendance at Mass, and the shortcomings in the catechesis of young people, the Church also faces many challenges posed by the secularization of the culture. [4]

Indeed, the teachings of the Church on the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony have been poorly conveyed to God’s people. And for many  people, what they do hear unintelligible. For example they may well hear: Marriage is forever, but if it doesn’t work out for you we will get you annulment, and remember, an annulment is NOT a divorce! Or again they may hear that even though Protestants can get married while skydiving with a Justice of the Peace, and it valid, if a Catholic gets married outside the Church, it is invalid. Etc…

People struggle to figure all this out. And while there ARE answers to these puzzlements, they remain difficult obstacles in speaking coherently to people who are poorly catechized and more influenced by the secular world than the Church in this regard.

A chief place for us to begin rebuilding the case for traditional Marriage is resetting the premise of the discussion. Marriage is not first and foremost about what is best and most pleasing to the adults in the equation. Marriage is about children and what is best for them. Marriage is not about the rights of adults per se, it is about what is justly due to children.

Marriage takes its structure and mission as an institution based on the fact that every child deserves and has a birthright to be raised by by a father and mother, who have committed themselves to a stable and loving union, so as to give their child a  stable an loving upbringing under the formative influence of both a male and female, that is their own parents.

This, it seems is where we must begin. More on this here: Getting the Marriage Conversation Right. Other things are surely required, but here is a good place to start, right where the modern secular premise goes 180° wrong.

And thus, in these four fundamental factors a perfect storm begins to brew that has severely damaged the understanding of the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony and the Institution of Traditional Marriage. Other factors also influence, but as we prepare to the Extraordinary Synod, Cardinal O’Malley’s remarks help frame a discussion of the problem and a way forward.

Later we can also discuss some of the questions put forward in the working document of the Synod.


TOPICS: Catholic
KEYWORDS: family; fornication; marriage; msgrcharlespope; sex; sexualrevolution
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BTW, there is a cute (and poignant) video at the link.
1 posted on 12/03/2013 2:35:53 AM PST by markomalley
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To: ConorMacNessa; Mrs. Don-o; Tax-chick; Biggirl; NYer; Salvation; Nervous Tick

Msgr Pope ping


2 posted on 12/03/2013 2:36:09 AM PST by markomalley (Nothing emboldens the wicked so greatly as the lack of courage on the part of the good -- Leo XIII)
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To: markomalley

Lots of analysis that misses the elephant in the room.

The truth is brutal as it is simple: Many women no longer want to be married.

60% of all divorces are initiated by women. Over 90% of divorces where the woman has a four year (or higher) degree are at her initiation.

Women have made marriage a lose-lose proposition for men. They’ll lose in divorce court, they’ll lose contact with the children. And let’s face facts: More and more American women are really unattractive, fat, mouthy shrews. Why would any sane man want to marry them in the first place? The Cardinal completely overlooks this development as he wants to keep his missive high and mighty sounding.

The number of young women who are absurdly fat has long since gotten out of hand - the a point now where they attack women who are in good shape who post pictures of themselves online. Young men are now getting way too fat as well, but the number of fat women under the age of 25 is utterly amazing to me.

I tell young men that the odds are stacked very heavily against them in marriage, and that the fastest road to the poor house is a divorce which can be initiated without any doing on the male’s part, and about which the man can do little to nothing.


3 posted on 12/03/2013 2:54:43 AM PST by NVDave
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To: Excellence

srbfl


4 posted on 12/03/2013 3:00:10 AM PST by Excellence (All your database are belong to us.)
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To: markomalley

I anticipate that the comments will largely consist of attacks on women, and this is typical of “discussion” of this topic. Perhaps the critical point has passed, and there will be no revitalization of marriage in the general culture.

That’s dreadful for children, of course. On the other hand, I think it’s possible that the birthrate will continue to fall, especially as more men acknowledge that what they’re really looking for in a “relationship” is another man.


5 posted on 12/03/2013 3:07:24 AM PST by Tax-chick (Now with more LOL and less UNNNGH.)
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To: markomalley
FIVE! Not FOUR!

LIBERALISM: This "factor" has lead to all of the rest of the above, and yet, the Catholic Church never seems to get tired of supporting and promoting socialism instead of personal responsibility, free markets and private charity instead of government handouts.

For some reason, The Church is blind to the reality that fiscal conservative values are what promote conservative social values. They go hand-in-hand. Socialism destroys families just as it destroys Christians. The Church wants its cake and wants to eat it too. Doesn't work that way. And the recent commentary served up by the current Pope and Cardinal Dolan clearly show that Church leaders still have their heads stuck in the sand.

Lie down with dogs...

6 posted on 12/03/2013 3:13:57 AM PST by apoxonu
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To: NVDave

Sure about that?


7 posted on 12/03/2013 3:19:04 AM PST by Biggirl (“Go, do not be afraid, and serve”-Pope Francis)
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To: apoxonu

The reason is because of “concern” for the poor.


8 posted on 12/03/2013 3:20:21 AM PST by Biggirl (“Go, do not be afraid, and serve”-Pope Francis)
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To: Biggirl

I think it’s all terrible. My own life and childhood were miserable due to all of these factors. Parents divorced, strayed, remarried total losers, over and over. (Dad was married 5 times). One abused me as a kid. I still live with the scars of it, and I’m 50 now.

Kids now REFUSE to marry young. It simply isn’t done. The best of them just stay in long-term fornicating relationships and they MIGHT marry, but only closer to their 30’s, automatically limiting their family size to no more than 2 if that.

It’s pitiful, if you ask me.

I think longevity has a lot to do with it also. People seem to believe they have until their 80’s or 90’s to live, so why live it married for 50 years or more? Why not experience at least some freedom your first 30-40 years.

Sadly, I’m seeing my fellow 50 something friends who never married are not regretting it deeply. With no family and nothing to show for their years of freedom and partying, they are left empty.

I married young, and I’m glad. We’re heading now almost to 30 years and I’m petrified I won’t get another 30, yet another year with my husband. We will enjoy a very full life TOGETHER ...I like “together” better ...don’t understand why more people don’t.


9 posted on 12/03/2013 3:47:24 AM PST by LibsRJerks
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To: LibsRJerks

Sadly, it has all to do with one word and one word only, MONEY.


10 posted on 12/03/2013 3:49:22 AM PST by Biggirl (“Go, do not be afraid, and serve”-Pope Francis)
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To: LibsRJerks

Heartbreaking all the same.


11 posted on 12/03/2013 3:50:07 AM PST by Biggirl (“Go, do not be afraid, and serve”-Pope Francis)
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To: Biggirl

I realize the reason but that still does not excuse the reasoning - or worse, the seeming intentional ignorance of historical fact. All socialism does or has ever done is make everyone poorer - except the elites who “know better” than all. Sooner or later, the system collapses and then there are even more “poor” then there were before.


12 posted on 12/03/2013 3:53:44 AM PST by apoxonu
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To: apoxonu

The whole issue is also concern for not making wealth an “idol”.


13 posted on 12/03/2013 3:56:51 AM PST by Biggirl (“Go, do not be afraid, and serve”-Pope Francis)
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To: markomalley

Another reason is that the cowardice of the American bishops is eating the heart out of the Church.

If Nancy Pelosi can march up and receive Communion, then Communion means NOTHING.

If Ted Kennedy can have a big, televised, splashy funeral, then it means NOTHING to say someone is a “Catholic.”

http://tinyurl.com/canon915


14 posted on 12/03/2013 4:08:10 AM PST by Arthur McGowan
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To: Biggirl
Sigh. Yes, I know that too. So why not just say that and leave out the pleas for more government intervention?

Why ignore the fact that as far back as the days of bread and circuses, "taking" from those who have to reward those who have not - has never worked as well in the long run as encouraging and promoting private charity?

Better yet, why not sell off some of the trillions in wealth owned by the wealthiest organization in the world...and set a good example?

15 posted on 12/03/2013 4:12:44 AM PST by apoxonu
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To: NVDave

I married a fat woman! She is pure love. Because she’s FAT? No. If she were skinny with huge breasts she’d be better? No. She is pure love.

15 years this summer.

Oh yea, I fell into the culture that the good Cardinal didn’t do much to help me with several decades ago, so I checked out only the skinny perfect physical specimens...but praised be Jesus Christ, as a poorly formed Catholic, I’d heard a cardinal Ratzinger one time, for 1.5 minutes on TV one Sunday in the mid seventies, say that lovemaking was a kind of sexual cement that helped bond a marriage together, that kernel spun me 180 degrees just in time before I turned into a cad. I wasted a lot of time looking for pure love in only miss physically perfect, as the culture and lack of formation taught me. Wasted my best “physical specimen” years of myself maybe too.

Eventually, I closed my eyes and searched for pure love. Found her, for free, on the internet!!!!! just before y2k.

Close your eyes buddy - don’t avoid the french, the black, the blah, blah - find a pure love, and be shown by her that she is practicing Catholic or is becoming one going in and wait for her to get there with you.

I wont dump her if she gets skinny, loses a leg, goes dementia. And she wont leave me likewise. And if she did, I love Jesus and have Him.

Didn’t think she could have kids - so we figured we’d adopt (I always wanted a dozen). God said, despite science, “three in 6 years” and we’ll see what tomorrow brings. Total trust in Jesus and forget about the future.

Shrews? Well, be nice to them as children of God, and keep seeking pure love while doing God’s work here, but do God’s work here.

Fat people carry their medical problem or their sins, on their belly. Shrews carry it in their face/mouth. We all have sin to carry. Find someone doing their best, despite the load they have been forgiven for, though the baggage they still carry, as do we all.


16 posted on 12/03/2013 4:18:32 AM PST by If You Want It Fixed - Fix It
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To: markomalley

“Marriage is about children”

This is the anthropololgical view. and it is solid ground.

bump for later read


17 posted on 12/03/2013 4:29:54 AM PST by Varda
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To: Tax-chick
Dear Tax-chick,

“On the other hand, I think it’s possible that the birthrate will continue to fall, especially as more men acknowledge that what they’re really looking for in a 'relationship' is another man.”

This is an extremely insulting thing to post.

Many people, both men and women, deserve blame for these matters.

But women far more than men.

Not because women are intrinsically more evil than men, just that the law forbids to men evils that it makes a birthright to women.

Reflect on the ugliness that you have added to the conversation, and how you have stabbed many who suffer still the wounds inflicted upon them by female trash using the full force of the law against them.


sitetest

18 posted on 12/03/2013 5:53:26 AM PST by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: NVDave

“fastest road to the poor house is a divorce”

Amen to that. It took me 14 years to catch up.


19 posted on 12/03/2013 5:57:43 AM PST by Resolute Conservative
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To: markomalley

Welfare.


20 posted on 12/03/2013 5:59:19 AM PST by 9YearLurker
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To: sitetest

Talk about ugly—yours is an all-too-common misogynist Freeper post.


21 posted on 12/03/2013 6:00:43 AM PST by 9YearLurker
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To: NVDave

And yours is also classic female hatred from FR.


22 posted on 12/03/2013 6:02:11 AM PST by 9YearLurker
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To: 9YearLurker
Dear 9YearLurker,

I don't think so. I've just seen the slogging in the wars from a vantage point of a 30-year happy marriage to my best friend, who, by the way, is of the female persuasion and who thinks the laws are badly tilted against men, and who has seen the same crimes committed that I've seen.

Women generally who think we're being mean when we point out the truth need to look a little more honestly and ask why so many men say the same things. Even the happily-married ones.

My wife and I have two sons nearly-grown, and view with trepidation how badly they could get screwed by a "woman" who makes use of the law as the law has been written and is currently interpreted.


sitetest

23 posted on 12/03/2013 6:07:49 AM PST by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: NVDave

Many women marry the government.

That’s 90% of the problem right there.


24 posted on 12/03/2013 6:09:02 AM PST by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter admits whom he's working for)
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To: markomalley

Ultimately state involvement. Many are conditioned to think it comes from the state, it’s just a contract that can be broken and resumed between any parties the state decides to include in its parameters. As far as the state is concerned the nature and rules of marriage can be changed instantly by the whim of judges, pols, or those that bother to vote in referendums. That’s all it is to many folks, and in that aspect I don’t find it surprising that many now lack respect for the institution. In fact, it’s pretty reasonable.

Pope Leo XIII saw all this coming down 130 years ago.

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_10021880_arcanum_en.html

“Can anyone, therefore, doubt that laws in favor of divorce would have a result equally baneful and calamitous were they to be passed in these our days? There exists not, indeed, in the projects and enactments of men any power to change the character and tendency with things have received from nature. Those men, therefore, show but little wisdom in the idea they have formed of the well-being of the commonwealth who think that the inherent character of marriage can be perverted with impunity; and who, disregarding the sanctity of religion and of the sacrament, seem to wish to degrade and dishonor marriage more basely than was done even by heathen laws. Indeed, if they do not change their views, not only private families, but all public society, will have unceasing cause to fear lest they should be miserably driven into that general confusion and overthrow of order which is even now the wicked aim of socialists and communists. Thus we see most clearly how foolish and senseless it is to expect any public good from divorce, when, on the contrary, it tends to the certain destruction of society.”

FReegards


25 posted on 12/03/2013 6:39:42 AM PST by Ransomed
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To: sitetest

I haven’t seen it. Out of dozens and dozens of extended family members, I’ve seen only a couple of divorces. In those cases it was initiated by the women, and they voluntarily left virtually everything owned between the couple to man, since they were leaving.

It may well matter what circles you run in. How possibly would your sons get screwed in modern marriage and divorce unless they had children, in which case the sons would be expected to provide child support.

I’ve seen dozens and dozens of divorce situations outside of my family in recent years, and overwhelmingly the parents share custody equally.

Again, it may be a matter of what circles, socioeconomically and according to individual state laws, that we travel in.


26 posted on 12/03/2013 6:53:55 AM PST by 9YearLurker
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To: apoxonu; Biggirl
the Catholic Church never seems to get tired of supporting and promoting socialism instead of personal responsibility, free markets and private charity instead of government handouts.

You mean too many clerics in the Church. The Church's teaching, on the other hand, is pretty clear.

What the Popes Have to Say About Socialism

Subsidiarity (Catholicism

27 posted on 12/03/2013 7:15:29 AM PST by Pyro7480 (Viva Cristo Rey!)
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To: NVDave

On the other hand, many women do want to be married but they are competing with women with no morals, porn causing men to be sexually selfish and demanding, tolerating men who act like dogs fornicating with anything, men who can get jobs that would support a family because the economy is depressed and men who think it’s there way or the highway.


28 posted on 12/03/2013 7:29:17 AM PST by yldstrk (My heroes have always been cowboys)
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To: sitetest

I’m unique in expressing an “insulting point of view,” I know. Such a thing is so rare on FR.

But seriously, I’m sincerely sad for people who have had bad experiences. It’s a crummy world out there in a lot of ways.


29 posted on 12/03/2013 7:48:25 AM PST by Tax-chick (Now with more LOL and less UNNNGH.)
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To: markomalley

I was at the doctor’s office yesterday and saw a couple sitting side by side, but not talking to each other, instead each one looking at their own handheld device. It was amazing that I was able to keep my mouth shut.


30 posted on 12/03/2013 8:12:04 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: markomalley

A good rule of thumb in my marriage is less focus on the “me” and more focus on the “we” with God first and foremost.


31 posted on 12/03/2013 8:51:19 AM PST by Scarlet7
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To: 9YearLurker
Dear 9YearLurker,

Unfortunately, I've seen a lot of divorces. Five just among my siblings and my wife's siblings. Every one of them initiated by the wife. In a wider circle, almost every divorce I've ever seen has been initiated by the wife.

Of all those divorces, some were moderately equitable. A majority were oppressive. But since nearly every divorce was initiated by the wife, every divorce where one spouse is seriously oppressed, the oppressor has been the wife.

Every time.

Without exception.

You talk about “shared custody.” Yeah. Right. In every divorce I've ever seen with kids, “shared custody” meant that the mother got the kids, the father got the child support bill, some weekends (maybe) and a few weeks in summer with the kids. Oh, and the mother was supposed to consult with the father about things. But usually didn't.

My own brother, screwed hard by the whore that divorced him, had “shared custody.” Yet, she moved to another state, many hundreds of miles away, yanked their kids from their (very good) Catholic school mid-year, impoverished my brother (the child support payments were so egregious and unrelenting, even during periods of unemployment, that for years, he lived off the kindness of family in friends, rent-free with this one, reduced rent with another), and very little participation in their lives.

The fact is, if you look at the statistics, not just at random anecdotes, you see that 1) most divorces are initiated by women, 2) women almost always get physical custody, 3) thus, women get child support, 4) men may NOT withhold child support when women don't provide for legally-obligated visitation, 5) men will regularly be incarcerated or otherwise punished for withholding child support or other economic support, but 6) women seldom get more than a tongue-lashing for withholding visitation rights.

But in terms of more anecdotes, my nephew is going through the same thing right now. An “amicable” divorce which comprises him being forced from the family home, “shared custody” with his slut soon-to-be ex-wife retaining physical custody, punitive child support payments, all on a whim. This is a highly-educated fellow, working on his doctoral dissertation, sweet-natured, school teacher, very involved with his family, no drugs, no alcohol, no running around.

She filed no-fault, nothing he can do. He has a penis. He loses.

How about this simple legal change? You file no-fault, you walk away with nothing. At all. No kids, no custody, no alimony, no child support, no portion of your spouse's property (especially retirement accounts and the like), and a reduced portion of the communal property, say, 10%.

If you can't give a serious justification in court for ending a serious legal contract (remember that marriage is a legal contract as much as a covenant), then you can have it, but you don't get rewarded for destroying the lives of innocents.

Like I said, it's not that women are generally more evil intrinsically than men, but law doesn't allow men to do the things that the law gives to women as their birthright.


sitetest

32 posted on 12/03/2013 9:10:45 AM PST by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: sitetest
Unfortunately, I've seen a lot of divorces. Five just among my siblings and my wife's siblings. Every one of them initiated by the wife. In a wider circle, almost every divorce I've ever seen has been initiated by the wife. Of all those divorces, some were moderately equitable. A majority were oppressive. But since nearly every divorce was initiated by the wife, every divorce where one spouse is seriously oppressed, the oppressor has been the wife. Every time. Without exception.

How many were "initiated" by the wife because the husband had been unfaithful?

33 posted on 12/03/2013 9:12:42 AM PST by Alex Murphy ("the defacto Leader of the FR Calvinist Protestant Brigades")
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To: markomalley

Four Factors That Fuel the Crisis in Marriage and Family!

Mother in Law
Father in Law
Sister in Law
Brother in Law


34 posted on 12/03/2013 9:13:48 AM PST by angcat
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To: sitetest

You refer to your nephew’s wife as a ‘slut’, but surely all statistics show that husbands are the more likely to cheat on wives.

Again, I take it you’ve got different state laws and socioeconomic circumstances, because most husbands and wives I see around here truly have joint custody. E.g., one or two weeks with each parent, then the reverse. Often both parents stay in the same town so the kids don’t have any disruption from their school and friends.

What is it that makes so many women want to marry the men in your family—and then leave them?


35 posted on 12/03/2013 9:17:37 AM PST by 9YearLurker
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To: Biggirl

**The whole issue is also concern for not making wealth an “idol”.**

The Deadly Sin of Greed.


36 posted on 12/03/2013 9:26:28 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: markomalley; Tax-chick; GregB; Berlin_Freeper; SumProVita; narses; bboop; SevenofNine; ...

Ping!


37 posted on 12/03/2013 9:36:22 AM PST by NYer ("The wise man is the one who can save his soul. - St. Nimatullah Al-Hardini)
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To: Alex Murphy
Dear Alex Murphy,

Two out of many.

Unless you count the slut who was my brother's third wife. She filed no-fault and cleaned him out while screwing anything that would touch her in the tri-state region, including my sister's husband, the creature we all refer to unfondly as “the beast.”

She told me she divorced my brother because he was, and I quote, “fat and worked too much.” Yes. After a long period of time of intermittent employment here and there, he found a good job paying $20 per hour with benefits, but was obligated to work 10 hours per day, five days per week.

And he was kinda overweight.

Perfectly justifiable grounds to divorce your husband! Take your kids out of Catholic school and move nearly a thousand miles away! And then shack up with your first cousin (not making this up)! And steal your ex-husband's retirement account, interest in the family home, all assets, and over 30% of his PRE-TAX pay, even when he experienced unemployment!

While you're propositioning everything with a male member within a 50-mile radius, and smoking dope with boys on the back terrace.

The family court master just didn't give a damn. My brother had a penis, so he lost.

His kids were ruined by the slut.

She is one of the reasons why I believe in Hell.


sitetest

38 posted on 12/03/2013 9:48:41 AM PST by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: NVDave

From where do you get your statistics?


39 posted on 12/03/2013 9:54:43 AM PST by stanne
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To: markomalley

Contraception, Roe vs. Wade, and the sexual revolution (as the article points out) ruined marriage.

I have 3 daughters in their 20’s and I can tell you that the men in their peer group won’t even consider commitment until around 30 because they are enjoying the hook up culture that manifests in full force during the college years and continues well into the 20’s.

Lest I sound like a male basher, the women did it to themselves when they lowered the standard for men and the ones who wanted to hold the line were overwhelmed by the majority of women who went along. Very few men will continue a relationship with a woman who is waiting for marriage to have sex, and the pressure is enormous.

Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free? The women who want to settle down and raise children in their 20’s when they have the energy and fertility to raise a decent size family are the ones who are paying the price because to conform is to now do the opposite.

The church needed to take a stronger stand in the 70’s and it’s too late now, the horse is out of the barn.

Sorry for the farm cliche’s, but they are accurate unfortunately.


40 posted on 12/03/2013 10:55:54 AM PST by stonehouse01
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To: 9YearLurker
Dear 9YearLurker,

“You refer to your nephew’s wife as a ‘slut’, but surely all statistics show that husbands are the more likely to cheat on wives.”

Irrelevant. And of questionable accuracy in the current era. It appears that feminism has encouraged women to do a lot of “catching up” in this area.

As to shared custody, etc., that there are some women who divorce their husbands and inflict lower levels of pain and suffering on their family is not an issue of socioeconomic circumstances. It just means some folks are worse than others.

And nowhere have I said there aren't some men who are truly bad folks. Just that laws, as currently written, empower women to oppress their ex-husbands and children that don't go in the other direction.

With all the “shared custody” you're talking about, count: 1) How many divorced families with children do you know where the ex-husband pays child support? 2) How many where the ex-wife pays child support?

Which is the greater number?

Now, get back to me about “shared” custody.

“What is it that makes so many women want to marry the men in your family—and then leave them?”

Who said it's all in one direction? There are the ladies among my siblings and my wife's siblings who have initiated divorces.


sitetest

41 posted on 12/03/2013 11:17:58 AM PST by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: sitetest

We’ve got, I think, to the nub of it. Like many bitter male Freepers on the subject of American women and divorce, you apparently think that when men work while their wives raise their children that the assets and the earning power of such men should solely belong to them—rather than being shared according to the arrangement of the marriage.

I disagree, and so we I expect we’ll continue to disagree in this discussion.


42 posted on 12/03/2013 11:31:36 AM PST by 9YearLurker
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To: sitetest
...the slut who was my brother's third wife...
...screwing anything that would touch her in the tri-state region, including my sister's husband...
...the creature we all refer to unfondly as “the beast”...
...the slut...
...She is one of the reasons why I believe in Hell.

Tell us how you really feel.

43 posted on 12/03/2013 11:39:02 AM PST by Alex Murphy ("the defacto Leader of the FR Calvinist Protestant Brigades")
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To: 9YearLurker
Dear 9YearLurker,

As through out the discussion, you've missed it by a mile.

I don't think that the assets and earning power belong only to men.

You're deflecting having to answer my previous question - who gets child support? Who doesn't?

Nearly as many women work as men, now. And many women now out-earn their husbands. Yet, who gets child support? Who doesn't?

In my brother's case, he was willing to take physical custody of his kids, to protect them from the depradations of the whore that he'd married, and from the various & sundry men who traipsed through the whore's life and bed. He was a good father, the kids loved him, he stayed in the area, would have kept them in the same home and school, had relatives in the area willing to help him out (we often babysat our nephew and niece when he needed some help), and even better, wasn't screwing every object he could find or getting high. She had a more steady job (which she promptly quit to go whoring a thousand miles away, dragging her two little victims in tow), and made just as much money. Why not give my brother physical custody and give HIM child support?

My own view, as I mentioned previously, is that in no-fault divorces, the initiator should receive none of her/his victim's earnings or assets, and only a small part of the communal property. There should be penalties for initiating the voiding of serious contracts.

If the person believes he or she was the wronged party, one may still sue for divorce on a variety of grounds. My wife and I have a friend (a woman, of course) who sued her then-husband on grounds of mental cruelty. And won. Deservedly. Having proved substantial reasons in a court of law to void the marriage contract, she was entitled to custody, child support, etc.

So - how many guys do you know are getting child support? How many of the ladies? Do any of these ladies work? Any of the guys ever experience unemployment?


sitetest

44 posted on 12/03/2013 11:45:39 AM PST by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: markomalley

“careers” are more glorified than family and children. Also today there is little ‘start from nothing’, got to have a two new cars, a furnished house, ample clothes and a few dogs. DINKs was an old term.


45 posted on 12/03/2013 11:50:10 AM PST by ex-snook (God is Love)
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To: sitetest

The only times I’ve actually seen men impoverished by divorce is when they’ve resented child support—and so have refused to work, either altogether or at the level at which they are capable.

Don’t know the circumstances of your nephew’s divorce, but child support laws AFAIK are based on situation, not sex.

If your nephew was unable to win custody in that situation, I take it that his wife was the primary caretaker of the kids, despite apparently making as much as or more than your nephew—in which circumstance I’m not surprised she became resentful.


46 posted on 12/03/2013 12:10:37 PM PST by 9YearLurker
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To: Alex Murphy
Dear Alex Murphy,

"Tell us how you really feel."

Ah... I think I did. ;-)

I use a little hyperbole, but do not exaggerate.

Over the years, as I've met folks we both knew, me and my brother's ex-slut, I've found out that there is not a male we knew in common over the age of 16 whom she didn't either screw or proposition. Some of these revelations have been rather embarrassing. In all cases, they have astonished me.

I've never met any male with whom she refused to have sex.


sitetest

47 posted on 12/03/2013 12:19:54 PM PST by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: 9YearLurker
Dear 9YearLurker,

Still avoiding the question, I see. I'm not surprised. How many men do you know who receive child support from their ex-wives? How many ex-wives from their ex-husbands? Even in “shared custody” situations.

Why don't you look for some statistics on-line?

You might not like what you find.


sitetest

48 posted on 12/03/2013 12:32:45 PM PST by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: stonehouse01
I have 3 daughters in their 20’s and I can tell you that the men in their peer group won’t even consider commitment until around 30 because they are enjoying the hook up culture that manifests in full force during the college years and continues well into the 20’s.

That is because young women will only consider the top tier of men, and ignore everyone else.

The top 20% of men get 80% of the sex. Most single men go man years without female companionship during the prime of their youth. The few men who are successful have no reason to settle for any one woman.

49 posted on 12/03/2013 12:49:10 PM PST by ClaytonP
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To: sitetest
Over the years, as I've met folks we both knew, me and my brother's ex-slut, I've found out that there is not a male we knew in common over the age of 16 whom she didn't either screw or proposition. Some of these revelations have been rather embarrassing. In all cases, they have astonished me. I've never met any male with whom she refused to have sex.

That's quite a set of relatives and acquaintances you've got there.

50 posted on 12/03/2013 12:57:57 PM PST by Alex Murphy ("the defacto Leader of the FR Calvinist Protestant Brigades")
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