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THE (Catholic) BISHOPS AND OBAMACARE
Catholic Vote ^ | December 3, 2013 | STEPHEN WHITE

Posted on 12/03/2013 3:17:43 PM PST by NYer

dolan

This past weekend, Cardinal Timothy Dolan of New York—who recently finished his term as President of the USCCB—went on NBC’s “Meet the Press” where he discussed, among other things, the Catholic bishops’ complicated relationship with the Affordable Care Act. His Eminence was very supportive of the law’s goals, pointing out that the Catholic bishops have supported health care reform since 1919. So he laments that the bishops’ initial excitement at the prospect of comprehensive health care reform was ultimately frustrated by the administration’s intransigence over abortion funding and the exclusion of immigrants. Then came the concerns over conscience protections:

So that’s when we began to worry and draw back and say, “Mr. President, please, you’re really kind of pushing aside some of your greatest supporters here. We want to be with you, we want to be strong. And if you keep doing this, we’re not going to be able to be one of your cheerleaders.” And that sadly is what happened.

In the end, it was with reluctance, perhaps great reluctance, that the bishops opposed the bill.

As the widening gulf between Obamacare as it was sold to the American people and the law’s real world consequences becomes more apparent, Catholics who were, shall we say, less than reluctant in their opposition to Obamacare might be asking themselves, “If the bishops’ concerns over abortion and conscience protections had been addressed, would the bishops really have thrown their support behind the law? And would Catholics be required to follow the bishops’ lead and support the law, too?”

The answer to the first question is quite possibly, Yes. The answer to the second is, with respect, No. There are many policy issues for which the Church has no “official position” regarding which means are most appropriate to a given end. Discerning the means appropriate to even an admittedly worthy end—in this, case expanding access to basic health care—requires the exercise of prudence.

But you don’t have to take my word for it. Here’s how the bishops themselves put it in Forming Consciences For Faithful Citizenship:

Prudential judgment is also needed in applying moral principles to specific policy choices in areas such as the war in Iraq, housing, health care, immigration, and others. This does not mean that all choices are equally valid, or that our guidance and that of other Church leaders is just another political opinion or policy preference among many others. Rather, we urge Catholics to listen carefully to the Church’s teachers when we apply Catholic social teaching to specific proposals and situations. The judgments and recommendations that we make as bishops on specific issues do not carry the same moral authority as statements of universal moral teachings.

Even in cases where the bishops collectively support a particular policy, such judgments are—with some important exceptions—not binding on the consciences of Catholics. (Though Catholics are still obliged to “listen carefully to the Church’s teachers.”) In such cases—and the uber-complex field of health care policy is one of them—a well-formed conscience and prudent judgment can lead to legitimate conclusions that diverge from the position of the bishops. Appeals to prudential judgment don’t absolve us from responsibility for our decisions. The final measure of our actions and decisions in the political realm remains, as always, the common good.

As the Catechism puts it, “Prudence is the virtue that disposes practical reason to discern our true good in every circumstance and to choose the right means of achieving it.” (My emphasis in bold.) In this regard, Catholics—including bishops—who urge their fellow citizens to alleviate the intolerable situation in which many lack access to basic, even life-saving care, are correct to do so. That end is clearly worthy, and lays a claim on our consciences.

Unfortunately, while the road to Obamacare was paved with good intentions, good intentions are no substitute for good policy. Justified opposition to Obamacare was, and remains, opposition to a bad law, not to the benevolent motives of the law’s supporters. And it would be hard to find an example in which major legislation was passed with less regard for prudent evaluation of means than in the case of Obamacare. Then-Speaker Nancy Pelosi’s infamous line—“We have to pass the bill so that you can find out what’s in it”—is the very definition of imprudent approach to policy making.

Obama-worried

The litany of Obamacare’s broken promises is by now familiar: We already know that, even if you like your old plan, you likely won’t be allowed to keep it. (It’s not just the individual market—tens of millions of employer-based plans are likely to be cancelled in the medium term.) Having lost your plan, you may well have to switch doctors, too. As for bending the cost curve downward and lowering average family premiums, that’s not happening either. All of this, according to the Congressional Budget Office, will leave 31 million uninsured by 2023, if everything goes according to plan. Of course, not everything has gone according to plan, and the law may well increase the number of uninsured, at least in the near term.

Even if one assumes that each of these promises was made in good faith (an admittedly generous assumption), it doesn’t change the fact that by the President’s own metrics, Obamacare is failing. While it remains difficult to see how any Catholic could in good conscience oppose making healthcare more widely accessible (on what grounds?), it is increasingly easy to see why Catholics (or anyone else for that matter) would oppose Obamacare. To repeat: Good ends are ill-served by ineffectual and counterproductive means.

That said, it is incumbent upon those who oppose Obamacare—myself included—to rally around the cause of health care reform. Fortunately, promising alternatives do exist. Whether any politicians—here’s looking at you, Speaker Boehner!—will pursue such alternatives, rather than contenting themselves to reap the political rewards of the President’s policy disasters, remains to be seen.

Which brings us to one last point: The problems with Obamacare extend beyond questions of administrative, bureaucratic, and technical competence. They extend beyond the architecture of the law itself, which supposes, for example, that more young, healthy Americans will buy insurance despite the fact that its cost (for them) has drastically increased while the incentive to have it has just gone down (since waiting until you’re already sick doesn’t increase the cost of insurance.)

The deepest problem with Obamacare touches on fundamental questions about the proper role of the state in the lives of citizens. The state bears responsibility for the common good; of this there should be no doubt. But neither should there be any doubt that entrusting the state with ever greater authority over ever greater swaths of civic life—however well intentioned—opens doors to unwanted, often unjust, intrusions upon the rights and consciences of citizens. To this, the Church’s ongoing battles over the HHS mandate all too vividly attest (to say nothing of the President’s manifest dedication to causes that directly and unequivocally contravene the common good.) Prudence would suggests this is a lesson we can’t afford not to have learned.


TOPICS: Catholic; Moral Issues; Religion & Culture; Religion & Politics
KEYWORDS: catholic; hhsmandate; obama; obamacare; usccb

1 posted on 12/03/2013 3:17:43 PM PST by NYer
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To: Tax-chick; GregB; Berlin_Freeper; SumProVita; narses; bboop; SevenofNine; Ronaldus Magnus; tiki; ...
While it remains difficult to see how any Catholic could in good conscience oppose making healthcare more widely accessible (on what grounds?), it is increasingly easy to see why Catholics (or anyone else for that matter) would oppose Obamacare. To repeat: Good ends are ill-served by ineffectual and counterproductive means.

Personally, I was embarrassed by Cardinal Dolan's statement: "The Catholic Church could have been one of Obamacare's "biggest cheerleaders" if not for some of its mandates involving contraception." Either the bishops are ignorant of the ramifications of Obamacare on the working class or they are naive, which I strongly doubt.

2 posted on 12/03/2013 3:20:35 PM PST by NYer ("The wise man is the one who can save his soul. - St. Nimatullah Al-Hardini)
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To: ml/nj

Follow up, ping!


3 posted on 12/03/2013 3:21:04 PM PST by NYer ("The wise man is the one who can save his soul. - St. Nimatullah Al-Hardini)
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To: NYer
His Eminence was very supportive of the law’s goals,

Obviously a bad translation.

4 posted on 12/03/2013 3:23:41 PM PST by DManA
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To: NYer
Either the bishops are ignorant of the ramifications of Obamacare on the working class or they are naive, which I strongly doubt.

There is a third possibility.

Pius X talked about it quite a bit.

5 posted on 12/03/2013 3:30:25 PM PST by markomalley (Nothing emboldens the wicked so greatly as the lack of courage on the part of the good -- Leo XIII)
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To: NYer

The Bishops were all against it because it warred on life from the womb to the tomb.


6 posted on 12/03/2013 3:42:21 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: NYer

Unfortunately, there remains a communistic element in some religious, who have never given up on Vatican II.


7 posted on 12/03/2013 3:44:11 PM PST by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: DManA
Obviously a bad translation.

Heh heh.

8 posted on 12/03/2013 4:07:42 PM PST by Jeff Chandler (Obamacare: You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs.)
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To: NYer
the bishops are ignorant of the ramifications

Let's face it, they are collectivists who are ignorant of economics.

9 posted on 12/03/2013 4:08:50 PM PST by Jeff Chandler (Obamacare: You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs.)
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To: Salvation

They still don’t get it. The problem is not that (failed) Obamacare is warring on life. The problem is that the government has been given the power to war on life.

The bishops want the government to have the power to strip American citizens of their freedom. Except for them.


10 posted on 12/03/2013 4:12:04 PM PST by Jeff Chandler (Obamacare: You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs.)
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To: NYer

Personally, I was embarrassed by Cardinal Dolan’s statement:

***
After his remarks about so-called immigration reform, nothing he says surprises me now. He is useless.


11 posted on 12/03/2013 4:20:02 PM PST by Bigg Red (Let me hear what God the LORD will speak. -Ps85)
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To: markomalley

There is a third possibility.

***
And that is....?


12 posted on 12/03/2013 4:21:28 PM PST by Bigg Red (Let me hear what God the LORD will speak. -Ps85)
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To: All
Personally, I was embarrassed by Cardinal Dolan's statement: "The Catholic Church could have been one of Obamacare's "biggest cheerleaders" if not for some of its mandates involving contraception." Either the bishops are ignorant of the ramifications of Obamacare on the working class or they are naive, which I strongly doubt.

IMO a convincing case can be made that the bishops do not look to the Bible for guidance, but IMO you can't say they're naïve.

Related thread:
Vatican paper: US bishops speak for Catholic Church on health care reform

13 posted on 12/03/2013 4:22:29 PM PST by Alex Murphy ("the defacto Leader of the FR Calvinist Protestant Brigades")
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To: NYer
Personally, I'm embarrassed by Cardinal Dolan's existence as a Cardinal.

When he had Barry to dinner and didn't lay a very public smack-down on him over BarryCare and other things it was obvious to me he's functionally identical to guys Rick Warren or Joel Olsteen.

The only real difference is that while Dolan still claims to believe in Christianity the other two have openly developed their own substitutes for Christianity.

The war goes on. If the time ever comes that there are no guys like Dolan left in the ranks of the Bishops and the Cardinals it'll be a sign that they've finished paving Hell.

14 posted on 12/03/2013 4:31:25 PM PST by Rashputin (Jesus Christ doesn't evacuate His troops, He leads them to victory)
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To: NYer

Article lets bishops off the hook.

First of all, they were warned.

Second, no warning should have been necessary. The Democrat party has been pro-abortion for forty-plus years. Obama is the most pro-abortion Democrat in history. What did the bishops think would happen to health care?

They didn’t think. They didn’t want to think.

Dolan couldn’t resist the chance to bellow with laughter with Obama at the Al Smith Dinner.

Cardinal Sean couldn’t resist the opportunity to hob-nob with the Kennedys at a big, splashy, televised canonization for Teddy, at which Cardinal Sean got the chance to slobber on Obama.


15 posted on 12/03/2013 4:48:21 PM PST by Arthur McGowan
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To: NYer
Embarrassed? I am dumbfounded at his jaw-dropping stupidity.
16 posted on 12/03/2013 5:16:54 PM PST by Mrs. Don-o (To the hard of hearing you shout, and for the almost-blind you draw large and startling figures..)
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To: markomalley

A little too subtle for me. What you mean to say about Pius X is ..?


17 posted on 12/03/2013 5:18:09 PM PST by Mrs. Don-o (To the hard of hearing you shout, and for the almost-blind you draw large and startling figures..)
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To: Salvation

Yeah hey were “all against it” at one minute to midnight, after they’d been “all for it” for a jillion years....


18 posted on 12/03/2013 5:19:22 PM PST by Mrs. Don-o (To the hard of hearing you shout, and for the almost-blind you draw large and startling figures..)
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To: Rashputin
"If the time ever comes that there are no guys like Dolan left in the ranks of the Bishops and the Cardinals it'll be a sign that they've finished paving Hell."

Word.

19 posted on 12/03/2013 5:22:55 PM PST by Mrs. Don-o (To the hard of hearing you shout, and for the almost-blind you draw large and startling figures..)
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To: Mrs. Don-o; NYer

I’m embarrassed and nauseated by this. I first read about this yesterday in an e-mail and kept remembering how some people were actually thinking Cardinal Dolan would make a good Pope!! Lord help us. By the way, I don’t think Cardinal O’Malley is much better either.


20 posted on 12/03/2013 5:26:57 PM PST by PatriotGirl827 (O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee)
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To: PatriotGirl827
They seem like they have never been confronted by any serious criticism --- by any alternative way of looking at things --- even by any point of view other than their own prejudices and reflexes --- since seminary days.

They seem blinky-eyed surprised that anybody could possible disagree. I remember when Sean O'Malley expressed sheer incredulity and incomprehension that anybody saw anything wrong with the brocade-encrusted, incense-reeking, Mob-Boss-Magnificent funeral for Ted Kennedy.

Do they have keepers that keep them in bubbles?

21 posted on 12/03/2013 5:36:45 PM PST by Mrs. Don-o (To the hard of hearing you shout, and for the almost-blind you draw large and startling figures..)
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To: PatriotGirl827; Mrs. Don-o

The Bishops at first did come out against Obamacare because of the threatening of life within it. I had a long list of links which I lost with a hard drive crash and the loss of my backup documents on my old computer.


22 posted on 12/03/2013 5:47:38 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: PatriotGirl827; Mrs. Don-o

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/search?SX=529e530703e43d3ff1ade92869c8c1db5e14083a;m=all;o=time;q=deep;s=bishops%20obamacare;t=-1


23 posted on 12/03/2013 5:53:27 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: PatriotGirl827
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Catholic Charities Insists it has not Endorsed HHS Mandate
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Archbishop Chaput: It’s not a ‘compromise,’ and it needs to be rescinded
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Catholic priest, pro-life activists arrested outside White House protesting Obama mandate
Obama Contradicted: HHS Banned Consideration of ‘Cost Effectiveness’ in Developing Contraception
BREAKING: Every Single Bishop Has Condemned the Obama/HHS Mandate!
Pro-life nuns: We’re not exempt - Obama mandate would force us ‘to pay for abortion-inducing drugs’

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Voris: Obama Able to Neutralize Catholic Resistance Thanks to Bishops’ Past Complicity
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USCCB President says Obama offered next to nothing; expresses disappointment with Sr. Keehan
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Top nun who supported Obama mandate thanks pro-choice group in private e-mail
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Fr. Frank Pavone: No compromise - the mandate has to go, period
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Opponents launch new White House petition rejecting Obama rewrite of birth control mandate
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Archbishop Chaput: HHS mandate insulting and dangerous
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Notre Dame Faculty to Obama: ‘This Is a Grave Violation of Religious Freedom and Cannot Stand’
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Lew: Obama's latest stance on birth-control mandate final, puts issue to rest (CAPTION)
Pat Buchanan: 'Obama is trampling on God's turf' (Video)
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Michael Moore Goes On Anti-Catholic Twitter Rant, Distorts Contraception Debate
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Understanding Oppostion to the HHS Mandate (Part 1): Why the Church Won’t Pay for Contracept

The Bishops Chickens Coming Home to Roost.
65 Orthodox Church bishops call on Obama to ‘rescind’ the ‘unjust’ contraception mandate
Doug Kmiec Writes Obama: 'Friendship Will Not Permit Me to Disregard Duty to Faith and Country'
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Updated: *167* Bishops (More Than 90% of Dioceses) Have Spoken Out Against Obama/HHS Mandate
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Mohler [Southern Baptist] Says Insurance Mandate Not Just 'Catholic' Issue
An Open Letter to President Barack Obama Concerning Recent Tyranny (With Pictures!)
Lincoln bishop: prepare for 'suffering' under HHS mandate
Bishop David Zubik confronts Obama
Obama’s ‘war on the church’

Pope hits out at 'radical secularism'
‘We Will Not Comply’: Catholic Leaders Distribute Letter Slamming Obama Admin Contraceptive Mandate
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Bruskewitz: Fight Insurance Ruling [Sebelius a "bitter, fallen away Catholic"]
Letter from Archbishop John G. Vlazny on the matter of freedom of conscience and decisions by HHS
Bishop Olmsted's Letter to Catholics [Catholic Caucus]
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Contraception mandate prompts Peoria bishop to instate St. Michael Prayer (Catholic Caucus)
Phoenix bishop (Olmstead): defy feds on birth control
A letter from Archbishop Dennis M. Schnurr concerning HHS edict
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Bishop [Daniel Jenky] Blasts Secularist Intolerance, Calls For ‘Assertive Action’ to Defend Church
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Dolan: Natural law, not religious preference, dictates all life sacred
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OBAMA’S CONTEMPT FOR RELIGIOUS LIBERTY (mandates coverage of sterilization & contraception)
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Catholic doctors’ group launches petition against contraception mandate
Contraception mandate tramples religious freedom, US bishops say

 

24 posted on 12/03/2013 6:01:00 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: All

When it comes to economics and understanding the mechanisms of government, they are complete imbeciles, unworthy of any given credibility.


25 posted on 12/03/2013 6:16:11 PM PST by rbmillerjr (Ted Cruz...2016-24 ...A New Conservative Era)
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To: Mrs. Don-o; NYer
A little too subtle for me. What you mean to say about Pius X is ..?

NYer said:

  1. Either the bishops are ignorant of the ramifications of Obamacare on the working class
  2. or they are naive, which I strongly doubt.

The third option is defined in Pius X's apostolic letter, Notre Charge Apostolique.

An example of something discussed there:

…Indeed, the Sillon proposes to raise up and re-educate the working class. But in this respect the principles of Catholic doctrine have been defined, and the history of Christian civilization bears witness to their beneficent fruitfulness. Our Predecessor of happy memory re-affirmed them in masterly documents, and all Catholics dealing with social questions have the duty to study them and to keep them in mind. He taught, among other things, that “Christian Democracy must preserve the diversity of classes which is assuredly the attribute of a soundly constituted State, and it must seek to give human society the form and character which God, its Author, has imparted to it.” Our Predecessor denounced “A certain Democracy which goes so far in wickedness as to place sovereignty in the people and aims at the suppression of classes and their leveling down.” At the same time, Leo XIII laid down for Catholics a program of action, the only program capable of putting society back onto its centuries old Christian basis. But what have the leaders of the Sillon done? Not only have they adopted a program and teaching different from that of Leo XIII (which would be of itself a singularly audacious decision on the part of laymen thus taking up, concurrent with the Sovereign Pontiff, the role of director of social action in the Church); but they have openly rejected the program laid out by Leo XIII, and have adopted another which is diametrically opposed to it. Further, they reject the doctrine recalled by Leo XIII on the essential principles of society; they place authority in the people, or gradually suppress it and strive, as their ideal, to effect the leveling down of the classes. In opposition to Catholic doctrine, therefore, they are proceeding towards a condemned ideal.

It's worth looking at the whole thing.

Note, particularly, that these "Sillonists" are wtihin the Church and attempting to use the Church to contravene established Magisterial teaching..."for the common good."

That, then, is the third option: intentionally disregarding Catholic doctrine in an attempt to create a "more just" society.

26 posted on 12/03/2013 6:36:36 PM PST by markomalley (Nothing emboldens the wicked so greatly as the lack of courage on the part of the good -- Leo XIII)
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To: Bigg Red

sorry...ping to #26


27 posted on 12/03/2013 6:37:45 PM PST by markomalley (Nothing emboldens the wicked so greatly as the lack of courage on the part of the good -- Leo XIII)
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To: markomalley

That’s downright scary.

The quote about Bishop’s skulls lining the walls of hell comes to mind.


28 posted on 12/03/2013 6:43:49 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation
That’s downright scary.

Pius X was a smart guy, wasn't he?

29 posted on 12/03/2013 6:50:23 PM PST by markomalley (Nothing emboldens the wicked so greatly as the lack of courage on the part of the good -- Leo XIII)
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To: Mrs. Don-o; NYer

Is there something in their NSA/FBI/IRS/CIA/DNC files that is causing these guys to make such hideous decisions?

I really hate to say this, but Dolan seems like a real dim bulb.    He can't seem to see what everyone else can plainly see -- that the demoncrap party is plainly the enemy of the Catholic Church in America.

Some things wrong with B-O-care that Dolan and many other American Bishops apparently cannot see (other than the first two items) include the following:

Here are some other things wrong with B-O and his "accomplishments" which harm the USA and harm the Catholic Church in America (by no means a comprehensive list), but that Dolan and many other American Bishops apparently cannot see either: Also, if I'm not mistaken, it seems that when Dolan went in to "clean up" the mess Archbishop Rembert Weakland had made in Milwaukee, Dolan set Weakland up (see below) for the rest of his life with a nice, cushy, luxurious lifestyle / living quarters, instead of just telling him to "Hit The Road Jack".

It really seems that Dolan and a number of other American Bishops are dumb-as-a-rock dim bulbs, based on their statements and the decisions they have made about this immoral debacle (both before and after the HHS mandate was made public) and other B-O boondoggle efforts.    Such wrong-headed B-O-support (and other pin-headed decisions) may cast light on why some of the USCCB Bishops so badly mishandled the cases of that tiny fraction of priests who violated their solemn vows with their perverted homosexual activities.

Somehow I don't think many Catholics here will ever be cheerleaders for B-O and his evil plans.

30 posted on 12/03/2013 7:34:11 PM PST by Heart-Rest (Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. Gal 6:7)
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To: Heart-Rest; Mrs. Don-o; NYer
(The middle-top picture in post #30 seems to come and go at irregular intervals for some unknown reason, so I'm posting a couple of similar pics from different sites to show what I was trying to say there.)    :-)


31 posted on 12/03/2013 8:03:35 PM PST by Heart-Rest (Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. Gal 6:7)
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To: Heart-Rest

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3097874/posts?page=24#24


32 posted on 12/03/2013 8:07:34 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: PatriotGirl827
By the way, I don’t think Cardinal O’Malley is much better either.

He acts like a socialist. His latest project is re-organizing the churches of the archdiocese into "collaboratives" (headed by hand-picked, unorthodox, effeminate priests while removing and sidelining the orthodox priests from the parishes). He "redistributes" the collection $$ to such worthy causes as the multi-million dollar payroll of his personal staff, consorts with pro-abort Obama fundraisers such as Jack Connors, and funds the neocatechumenal way while stiffing the diocesan priests and the employee pension fund.

That Pope Francis chose him as an advisor who he believes shares a similar vision for the Church could reasonably be viewed as ominous.

33 posted on 12/03/2013 8:30:27 PM PST by BlatherNaut
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To: Salvation
Salvation, I saw your list of threads, but I honestly don't have time to read all those threads you listed there right now.

Was there something in my post that you felt was inaccurate or something?

(There is a whole lot more wrong with obamacare than just the HHS mandate, and none of the American Bishops should ever have considered being "cheerleaders" for it, whether that HHS mandate was there or not.    The whole B-O-care plan was built on a huge pile of lies, and it is going to hurt so many Americans.)

34 posted on 12/03/2013 9:11:50 PM PST by Heart-Rest (Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. Gal 6:7)
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To: NYer

I have no problem with the concept of universal health care in principle. But there’s a reason both the funniest and most frightening words in the English language are “I’m from the government and I’m here to help you.”


35 posted on 12/03/2013 9:57:15 PM PST by RichInOC (2013-14 Tiber Swim Team)
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To: markomalley

Thanks.


36 posted on 12/04/2013 5:17:09 AM PST by Bigg Red (Let me hear what God the LORD will speak. -Ps85)
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To: markomalley

Thanks. Eye-opening.


37 posted on 12/04/2013 6:37:39 AM PST by Mrs. Don-o (To the hard of hearing you shout, and for the almost-blind you draw large and startling figures..)
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To: Heart-Rest

What is that thing on his head? Good Lord.


38 posted on 12/04/2013 6:41:04 AM PST by Mrs. Don-o (To the hard of hearing you shout, and for the almost-blind you draw large and startling figures..)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
He used to be Archbishop of Milwaukee. It's a cheese head.


39 posted on 12/04/2013 6:44:51 AM PST by markomalley (Nothing emboldens the wicked so greatly as the lack of courage on the part of the good -- Leo XIII)
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To: Salvation

Salvation,

I am a loyal daughter of the Church (I wasn’t always, but I try to be so now), and I see all of your links, but most of those are referring to the HHS mandate.

Most of TPTB in the Catholic Church in America were in favor of Obamacare (or something very much like it), because they want everybody to have good health care, and they believe that pushing it through the state is the way to go. I think they are very naïve to think that, but they did. That’s why Dolan is indicating that if things had been different, they would have been “cheerleaders” for Obamacare.

The same thing is going on right now with immigration reform. I get notices from the Florida bishops all the time, asking me to urge my congressmen and senators to back “comprehensive immigration reform”. They are cheerleaders for immigration reform, and again, they think the democrats have a great idea here.

When will they figure it out?


40 posted on 12/04/2013 3:33:12 PM PST by PatriotGirl827 (O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee)
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To: Mrs. Don-o; markomalley
"What is that thing on his head? Good Lord."

- - - - - - -

Yes, that is a giant chunk of cheese (like markomalley said).

(I wonder if he wore a "Big Apple Head" for when he was reassigned to the "Big Apple"?    I haven't been able to find a picture of that yet!)     :-)

41 posted on 12/04/2013 7:55:24 PM PST by Heart-Rest (Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. Gal 6:7)
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