Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Would Someone Just Shut That Pope Up? (no, he doesn't really mean that!)
The American Conservative ^ | 12/5/2013 | Patrick J. Deneen

Posted on 12/06/2013 4:43:34 AM PST by steelhead_trout

Since the release of Evangelii Gaudium there have been countless articles and commentary about the economic portions of Pope Francis’s Apostolic Exhortation. Some of the commentary has been downright bizarre, such as Rush Limbaugh denouncing the Pope as a Marxist, or Stuart Varney accusing Francis of being a neo-socialist.

Not far below the surface of many of these critiques one hears the following refrain: why can’t the Pope just go back to talking about abortion? Why can’t we return the good old days of Pope John Paul II or Benedict XVI and talk 24/7/365 about sex? Why doesn’t Francis have the decency to limit himself to talking about Jesus and gays, while avoiding the rudeness of discussing economics in mixed company, an issue about which he has no expertise or competence?

These commentators all but come and out say: we embrace Catholic teaching when it concerns itself with “faith and morals”—when it denounces abortion, opposes gay marriage, and urges personal charity. This is the Catholicism that has been acceptable in polite conversation. This is a stripped-down Catholicism that doesn’t challenge fundamental articles of economic faith.

And it turns out that this version of Catholicism is a useful tool. It is precisely this portion of Catholicism that is acceptable to those who control the right narrative because it doesn’t truly endanger what’s most important to those who steer the Republic: maintaining an economic system premised upon limitless extraction, fostering of endless desires, and creating a widening gap between winners and losers that is papered over by mantras about favoring equality of opportunity.

(Excerpt) Read more at theamericanconservative.com ...


TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; Religion & Politics; Theology
KEYWORDS: conservatism; economics; francis; religion
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-75 next last
There's more to Catholicism than concern over what Ralph Nader calls "gonadal politics."
1 posted on 12/06/2013 4:43:34 AM PST by steelhead_trout
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: steelhead_trout

I just read a book “Rediscovering Catholicism”....given to me by my church and I loved it.
“Rediscover Catholicism” by Matthew Kelly-Free Book Changes My Life Forever. Guest Writer Michelle Defines Love.

http://patfish.blogspot.com/2013/11/rediscover-catholicism-by-matthew-kelly.html

So here I am all juiced and filled with the zeal of an evangenlizer and the pope’s words leave me sapped.

I don’t care what this op-ed writer says, the pope SHOULD stick to things spiritual and for the soul. If nothing else, capitalism might not be perfect but it’s killed no one.

Communism? Nazism? These idealologies killed millions. Socialism has pulled the life and verve out of humans’ souls for many years.

Now I don’t know what to do. I am demoralized.

I will never like what Pope Francis said in his diatribe and no one can make me.

I got eyeballs and I read all 50,000 of his silly words.

Now start attacking ME as is often the norm when someone....heh, stands up to power.


2 posted on 12/06/2013 4:52:54 AM PST by Fishtalk (http://patfish.blogspot.com/)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: steelhead_trout

Got to remember that it was the “Francisian spirituality” side of Pope Francis that he was speaking.


3 posted on 12/06/2013 4:54:31 AM PST by Biggirl (“Go, do not be afraid, and serve”-Pope Francis)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: steelhead_trout
[Non-economic papal exhortation] doesn’t truly endanger what’s most important to those who steer the Republic: maintaining an economic system premised upon limitless extraction, fostering of endless desires, and creating a widening gap between winners and losers that is papered over by mantras about favoring equality of opportunity.

Wow, talk about a straw-man argument! So if we oppose top-down central planning, we must be for gluttony and subjugation of the poor. Riiiight....

4 posted on 12/06/2013 4:58:09 AM PST by GOP_Party_Animal
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: steelhead_trout

If we had actual free market capitalism working in an actually Christian based culture, I don’t think we would hear any of these things from Francis or we would not take them as aimed at us. Capitalism, as it is practiced now i.e. crony capitalism or mercantilism-fascism, is more disruptive of traditional human relations every day.


5 posted on 12/06/2013 4:59:34 AM PST by arthurus (Read Hazlitt's Economics In One Lesson ONLINEhttp://steshaw.org/economics-in-one-lesson/)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: steelhead_trout

The best thing in this article is the link to the article by Hadley Arkes.


6 posted on 12/06/2013 5:00:33 AM PST by Arthur McGowan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: arthurus
If we had actual free market capitalism working in an actually Christian based culture...

You still would hear the Marxism. To them, Christian Capitalism is the British East India Company. it's the Opium Wars. It's a mustachioed Cockney foreman beating the "darkies" when they fail to meet a quota. It's a robber baron impoverishing coal miners for no reason other than personal greed (his company would have magically sprung up by itself without him...) It's all about breaking unions. It's today's Wall Street - though they fail to notice that the current President is owned and operated by that same Wall Street.

A complete absence of economic education leads directly to feelings of entitlement, easily manipulated by priests and politicians alike. Where is the benefit for the hierarchy in an independent, free-thinking populace?

7 posted on 12/06/2013 5:09:01 AM PST by Mr. Jeeves (CTRL-GALT-DELETE)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: steelhead_trout
Not far below the surface of many of these critiques one hears the following refrain: why can’t the Pope just go back to talking about abortion? Why can’t we return the good old days of Pope John Paul II or Benedict XVI and talk 24/7/365 about sex? Why doesn’t Francis have the decency to limit himself to talking about Jesus and gays, while avoiding the rudeness of discussing economics in mixed company, an issue about which he has no expertise or competence? These commentators all but come and out say: we embrace Catholic teaching when it concerns itself with “faith and morals”—when it denounces abortion, opposes gay marriage, and urges personal charity. This is the Catholicism that has been acceptable in polite conversation. This is a stripped-down Catholicism that doesn’t challenge fundamental articles of economic faith.

The most "fundamental articles of economic faith" are these, and you rarely hear them talked about in Catholic circles:

“You shall not steal."
-- Exodus 20:15

"You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his male servant, or his female servant, or his ox, or his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor's.”
-- Exodus 20:17


8 posted on 12/06/2013 5:11:25 AM PST by Alex Murphy ("the defacto Leader of the FR Calvinist Protestant Brigades")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: arthurus
If we had actual free market capitalism working in an actually Christian based culture, I don’t think we would hear any of these things from Francis or we would not take them as aimed at us. Capitalism, as it is practiced now i.e. crony capitalism or mercantilism-fascism, is more disruptive of traditional human relations every day.

Exactly.

A true free market holds no bias aside from favoring the seller who provides the goods people want at a price they can afford. That is fair to all.
9 posted on 12/06/2013 5:12:47 AM PST by cripplecreek (REMEMBER THE RIVER RAISIN!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: Biggirl
Just be guided by this: pope is infallible on matters of faith, not secular matters.
10 posted on 12/06/2013 5:15:33 AM PST by Mouton (The insurrection laws perpetuate what we have for a government now.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: steelhead_trout

He’s from Argentina, right? Isn’t that where the Nazis went to after WWII? Maybe he’s just used to that congregation.


11 posted on 12/06/2013 5:19:57 AM PST by The Sons of Liberty (Who but a TYRANT shoves down another man's throat what he has exempted himself from?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Mouton
Just be guided by this: pope is infallible on matters of faith, not secular matters.

Your statement is correct and it gives me some comfort.

What DOESN'T give me comfort is that the very FIRST thing Obama did yesterday was quote the Pope. The very FIRST chance he had and we had to know this was going to happen.

Pope Francis, who I don't think is the brightest bulb in the lamp and I'll never know why they replaced Benedict for him in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, blew it with that nonsense he wrote

For the record, I stopped my parish priest Weds night and told him I was not happy with the pope's words.

He looked at me a long time and said nothing.

Then he smiled and said that he had no input in it, that no one even asked him.

Sure Father Jim was trying to be clever, to defuse my ire, but I had the distinct impression that he too was not pleased with the pope's stupid words and that I was not the FIRST Catholic to complain about it.

Ah Pope Francis, you need to call home and cancel your newspapers....they are piling up on your front door.

And my Bishop's name is Francis and I USED to be proud of that.

12 posted on 12/06/2013 5:33:08 AM PST by Fishtalk (http://patfish.blogspot.com/)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: Fishtalk
Now I don’t know what to do. I am demoralized.

Thanks for your honesty. You are not alone. I encourage you to seek additional insight from Matthew Kelly's "Rediscovering Catholicism". You are correct, it is an awesome book and describes well the "genius of Catholicism". The answers of hope are in there. A few additional links that provide me hope regarding this Apostolic Exhortation (which unfortunately is being scrutinized as if it were solely an "Occupy Whatever position paper for a G-8 summit") ... and a broader perspective:

Source: Pope Francis Likely to Offer 'Clarification' to Distance Himself from 'Liberation Theology'

IMHO, the evils of communism, socialism, 'the State ... will be a point of emphasis in this coming 'clarification'.

Evangelii Gaudium (The Joy of The Gospel) is "a clarion call for a decisive shift in the Catholic Church's self-understanding, in full continuity with the teaching of the Second Vatican Council, Paul VI, John Paul II and Benedict XVI." However, it has unfortunately been subjected to being "celebrated, or lamented, as if it were an Occupy Whatever position paper for a G-8 summit."

Shortly after making the aforementioned comments, Rush said that he was being inundated with e-mails from Catholics who said that the WaPo took Pope Francis's words out of context and Rush ended the segment by saying something along the lines of, "I don't know what to believe" or something along those lines.

If anyone feels offended by my words, I would respond that I speak them with affection and with the best of intentions, quite apart from any personal interest or political ideology. My words are not those of a foe or an opponent. I am interested only in helping those who are in thrall to an individualistic, indifferent and self-centred mentality to be freed from those unworthy chains and to attain a way of living and thinking which is more humane, noble and fruitful, and which will bring dignity to their presence on this earth. [208]

I believe that Pope Francis believes this is "things spiritual". He wrote this for any who are "individualistic, indifferent or self-centered" ... and who are complacent about it ... in order that they may "be freed from those unworthy chains". It is Advent season. The economic teaching of this apostolic exhortation is meant for the 'Scrooges' of the world who are currently complacently comfortable in their self-centeredness.

13 posted on 12/06/2013 5:36:43 AM PST by Servant of the Cross (the Truth will set you free)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Mr. Jeeves

“It’s today’s Wall Street - though they fail to notice that the current President is owned and operated by that same Wall Street.”


Exactamundo!!


14 posted on 12/06/2013 5:43:33 AM PST by steelhead_trout (MYOB)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: Mr. Jeeves

“To them...” Is not Christian based free market. It would not look like such to the Pope or the rest of “them” were it a Christian based free market economy. Some bishops and some Catholic writers have had wrong headed opinions about things and written about them. They are not the mind of the Church. There are Catholics who think they are Progressives or rather Progressives and Communists and other vacuous liberals who think they are Catholics. They do not speak for the Church. And when the Pope speaks on Economics he is decidedly not speaking ex cathedra.


15 posted on 12/06/2013 5:49:59 AM PST by arthurus (Read Hazlitt's Economics In One Lesson ONLINEhttp://steshaw.org/economics-in-one-lesson/)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: steelhead_trout

What bothered me most about what the pope said is that — “unequal distribution of wealth inevitably leads to violence”.

Would violence disappear if everyone had equal wealth? Is it OK to be violent because you are not happy that things are not equal? So what would help violence most? Would not the poor who become violent for lack of wealth also be worshiping money? What would help this problem most? More money? I don’t think so.


16 posted on 12/06/2013 5:52:16 AM PST by Irenic (The pencil sharpener and Elmer's glue is put away-- we've lost the red wheel barrow)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: GOP_Party_Animal

I really wonder what they mean by “subjugation”.

To me, it seems that they view opposing their use of the State as an instrument of plunder is “subjugation”.

If anything, “the poor” would be invited to join in an add their efforts to the enrichment of the society while making their own lives better in the process. Enlightened self-interest makes everyone better off.


17 posted on 12/06/2013 5:53:43 AM PST by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter admits whom he's working for)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: Alex Murphy

Really hard to reconcile collectivism with “thou shall not covet” and “thou shall not steal”.


18 posted on 12/06/2013 5:54:16 AM PST by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter admits whom he's working for)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: Irenic

This is an underlying belief and assumption of the left -

that if we don’t use force to equalize wealth,
the have-nots will turn violent.

In truth, it’s nearly always some opportunistic power mad evil person that exploits the grievances of the have-nots and turns them violent against civilized society.


19 posted on 12/06/2013 5:56:39 AM PST by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter admits whom he's working for)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: steelhead_trout

“The division of the fullness of Catholic thought in America has rendered it largely tractable in a nation that was always suspicious of Catholics. Lockean America tamed Catholicism not by oppression (as Locke thought would be necessary), but by dividing and conquering—permitting and even encouraging promotion of its sexual teachings, albeit shorn of its broader social teachings.”

The author of this article attacks the very basis of the Founders. The idea of the United States is rendered illegitimate in the eyes of the author’s world view. A world view alien to Madison, Hamilton, and Jay. Instead of soothing any suspicions that those who support the ideology of the Founders have, this apologia for the Pope’s latest pronouncements just blows the lid off of it. I personally want to live in a United States based on thoughts of the Founders, not some 19th Century Papal States.


20 posted on 12/06/2013 5:58:13 AM PST by gusty
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: steelhead_trout

“maintaining an economic system premised upon limitless extraction, fostering of endless desires, and creating a widening gap between winners and losers that is papered over by mantras about favoring equality of opportunity.”

All you need to read to know this guy is full of poop!

Capitalism works to help ALL. Look at the poor in America vs the poor in Argentina, and then TRY telling me the Pope’s ideas on the economy are wonderful...


21 posted on 12/06/2013 5:58:20 AM PST by Mr Rogers (Liberals are like locusts...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: MrB

That is what I don’t understand. There are plenty of politicians and such that go around talking about equal wealth distribution, that area of human life is covered just fine.

There is a huge empty hole in peoples lives nowadays and in that hole God needs to be poured. I should think that would be something the Pope could really help the world with. Money will NEVER, EVER, fill that void— help the world find God’s love, Pope Francis.

Money talk is just more background noise.


22 posted on 12/06/2013 6:10:02 AM PST by Irenic (The pencil sharpener and Elmer's glue is put away-- we've lost the red wheel barrow)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: Irenic

Yes, the church should be about salvation.

But if you have a worldly (focusing on what to DO instead of on what Christ DID) view of the achievement of that salvation instead of God’s one and only plan,

then you’re going to venture into a collective salvation model that he’s talking about,

instead of an individual relationship based salvation.


23 posted on 12/06/2013 6:14:12 AM PST by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter admits whom he's working for)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: gusty

I remind again that OBAMA QUOTED THE POPE IMMEDIATELY!

Obama could care less about the pope. How convenient that the pope should give Obama another talking point besides Obamacare.

Now Mandela died and Obama has a week to become the next Mandela....with the pope’s blessing.

I’m thinking of walking away from my religion....just, poof, walking away.

And did y’all hear about those priests in South Korea all in favor of North Korea....their order is something like Catholic Priests for the restoration of North Korea or some such?

Which would be no mind as there are nuts everywhere but THESE GUYS ARE SANCTIONED BY THE VATICAN!!!

What Pope Francis said was devastating to the church....right at the time when the lawsuits are almost done, when a big capital campaign is ongoing, when free books and groups meetings are being given and scheduled to promote more evangelization of Catholicism.

Right now I’m ashamed of my religion, much less eager to preach its doctrine.

Maybe I’m alone but as a devout and active Catholic, if the Pope’s alienated me I suspect there are plenty others just as disgusted.


24 posted on 12/06/2013 6:38:14 AM PST by Fishtalk (http://patfish.blogspot.com/)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: Irenic

Amen.


25 posted on 12/06/2013 6:38:57 AM PST by Fishtalk (http://patfish.blogspot.com/)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: MrB

I’m going to ramble a bit here because it is important to me and your comment makes me feel comfortable. It is what I’m looking for. (so many I’s and me’s I read like Obama)

I don’t do church and I believe in part because when I was young my Granny was sick and had missed several Sunday’s at church. Nobody had come around to her house but her church sure sent a bill.

My mother attends church and I’ve told her that story and that is part of my reason why I don’t like churches. She told me that my Granny (I can’t ask her now, she’s gone)that my Granny pledged money and that’s why.

Well. wouldn’t that be like a contract then? She pledges money to her church but what is the churches responsibility or part of the contract? Just to collect the pledge?

Isn’t their part to attend to her spiritual life—why didn’t they come around to visit and check on her? She may have failed to give money but they failed her heart—I know, I was there and it hurt her.

I also hear church politics from my mother—I don’t like that. I’ve noticed some people holding church in their homes, I am thinking I could enjoy that but I’m apprehensive.

The thing is, I was excited about some of what Pope Francis said at first but it started to go down hill after that. This last one really was a final straw for me. No, I don’t need the church to talk about money, abortion or homosexuality. I want to hear about the bible and through the bible I will learn these truths.

I’m not an educated person and sometimes I fall asleep reading the same line in the bible over and over again—trying to wrap my mind around it— in hopes that one more reading will help me understand it. It feels like when I first learned to drive on a standard shift car...clunk...lurch...clunk.

That’s what I’m looking for in spiritual leaders—help me understand the bible. Help me to get closer to God through understanding. Maybe if I understood better I wouldn’t fall down so often and my life would get better. If I am a better person through understanding God, won’t I then be a better person to others around me?

I don’t like driving by huge churches with scrolling signs—it’s ugly and cold. Just teach me about God, help me understand and develop a closer relationship to God. That’s what I had hoped from in the Pope, I am disappointed.

I suppose one good thing about pope Francis— he sure has made more of us start talking about our beliefs— even if by controversy.


26 posted on 12/06/2013 7:13:36 AM PST by Irenic (The pencil sharpener and Elmer's glue is put away-- we've lost the red wheel barrow)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: Irenic

I’m sorry to hear that your Granny’s church didn’t serve widows and orphans as they are charged to do. That’s a shame. Also, don’t be surprised, this side of the Second Coming, that churches have sinners in them! Everyone but Christ will, at some time, let you down.

I think you would do well with finding a home church, or you can look up a “family integrated” church in your area, but they’re rare. In the end, though, it’s not the church that’s important, it’s the authority of the Bible that’s important. Pray for a Godly older mentor that loves God’s Word.

Don’t get too concerned about reading the same passage over and over again. That is a VERY GOOD thing to happen to you. The Bible is incomprehensible without the “Interpreter” of the indwelt Holy Spirit, and He prompts you to dwell on certain passages. I’ve been reading along and just got this “STOP” signal. “Dwell on this.” “Selah”.

No problem with “rambling” - I feel blessed to share in your struggles.


27 posted on 12/06/2013 7:24:18 AM PST by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter admits whom he's working for)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: MrB

“Pray for a Godly older mentor that loves God’s Word.”

I will. I thank you sincerely for your time and direction.


28 posted on 12/06/2013 7:31:25 AM PST by Irenic (The pencil sharpener and Elmer's glue is put away-- we've lost the red wheel barrow)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: Alex Murphy

“The most “fundamental articles of economic faith” are these, and you rarely hear them talked about in Catholic circles:

“You shall not steal.”
— Exodus 20:15
“You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male servant, or his female servant, or his ox, or his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor’s.”
— Exodus 20:17


Christians have the Gospels (and, if Roman Catholic, the Magisterium), not just the Torah, the law of Moses.


29 posted on 12/06/2013 7:46:17 AM PST by steelhead_trout (MYOB)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: Fishtalk

Matthew Kelley is an astounding writer. I’ve read several of his books.


30 posted on 12/06/2013 7:48:42 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Fishtalk

A better book to read would be Rediscovering Christ. He alone never fails or disappoints. He alone is the Door to salvation. He alone never changes. He alone satisfies.


31 posted on 12/06/2013 7:50:05 AM PST by aMorePerfectUnion (I grew up in America. I now live in the United States..)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: steelhead_trout

How many times did Jesus act or talk about money?

LUKE, CHAPTER 6:20 And raising his eyes toward his disciples he said: “Blessed are you who are poor, for the kingdom of God is yours.
Overturning the moneychangers tables in the temple
Naming a tax collector as an apostle
The story of the 10. 5, and 1 talent
The widow’s mite
One cannot serve God and Mammon
Give unto Caesar what is Caesar’s and unto God what is God’s
Blessed are the poor
What about the prayers of the Pharisee who stood in the front and bragged, and the prayers of the common poor man who stood in the back and prayed?
The Magnificat — He has put down the mighty from their thrones, and has exalted the lowly.
“Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” ~ 19:24
“You are lacking one thing. Sell everything you have and give the proceeds to the poor. Then you shall have treasure in heaven.”


32 posted on 12/06/2013 7:59:12 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: MrB
Subsidiarity.

Repeat After Me: Subsidiarity & Solidarity
Subsidiarity and Human Dignity
Does the USCCB Understand Subsidiarity?
[CATHOLIC CAUCUS] The Principle of Subsidiarity
[CATHOLIC/ORTHODOX CAUCUS] Subsidiarity Over Social Justice
What is the USCCB’s problem with subsidiarity?
Subsidiarity: Where Justice and Freedom Coexist
Health reform still full of thorny problems for Catholics (Vasa comes out for subsidiarity)
What You [Catholics] Need to Know: Subsidiarity, [Catholic/Orthodox Caucus]
Catholic Word of the Day: SUBSIDIARITY, 06-11-09

33 posted on 12/06/2013 8:03:21 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: Irenic
LOL, that sure sounds familiar. Been there and done that many times.

I spent more than 45 years avoiding the Lord, his teachings, and all churches.

But (looking back now) he had his hand on me all the time, slowly but surely guiding me back to him.

I've zoned out on a particular section of scripture many times.

I've fallen asleep reading about all the "begetting" going on in the Old Testament.

I've confused the names of the Apostles, trying to get them straight in my mind.

I've tried (and dropped) many different suggested recommendations concerning "how to read through your bible".

I've absorbed much, and not absorbed other, scripture in Sunday School.

I've listened intently to the Pastor's teaching on a section of scripture, and at times mentally wandered away during one of his teachings.

I've read about many different Religions and what/how they approach the Lord.

I've told my wife (when first going back to church) that I would not be singing in church, only to find myself somehow standing beside her and singing away, and enjoying it (the Holy Spirit is a mighty force indeed).

I have encountered scripture, that I couldn't get my head around before, and now it was suddenly perfectly clear to me (the Holy Spirit is a mighty, clarifying teacher), and realized it was because I wasn't ready the first time.

I have come to the realization that scripture "sticks to me" much better when I understand the context surrounding it. (This free software has been very helpful [www.e-sword.net] because of all the free Bibles/Dictionaries/Commentaries/etc. that are available in digital form. I have a copy of it on my desktop and my laptop and refer to it often -- LOL, many times while reading threads on the FR Religious forum.)

I have stopped worrying about all my starts and stops in my goal of understanding scripture and accept that my naturally sinful nature will make me stumble from time to time (and there's that certain Fallen Angel who likes to see me fail), but because the Lord and the Holy Spirit lead me, I am on the right path, and my understanding steadily grows.

This somewhat long-winded dissertation is meant to reassure you that there is at least one other person who is in the same boat as you -- so take heart, continue to believe on the Lord, and the Holy Spirit will guide you ever closer to him.

May God Bless you and yours.

34 posted on 12/06/2013 8:12:14 AM PST by Col Freeper (FR: A smorgasbord of Conservative Mindfood - dig in and enjoy it!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: Fishtalk
I’m thinking of walking away from my religion....just, poof, walking away.

... as a devout and active Catholic ...

IMHO, there perhaps may be a slight contradiction within this ...?

Saint Francis de Sales was one example of a life eager to preach Catholicism. In a homily (given by Fr. Roger Landry) about the horrific child abuse by priests scandal, he referenced the words of St. Francis de Sales who said ...

"Those who commit these types of scandals are guilty of the spiritual equivalent of murder," destroying other people's faith in God by their terrible example. But then he warned his listeners, "But I'm here among you to prevent something far worse for you. While those who give scandal are guilty of the spiritual equivalent of murder, those who take scandal — who allow scandals to destroy their faith — are guilty of spiritual suicide." They're guilty, he said, of cutting off their life with Christ, abandoning the source of life in the Sacraments, especially the Eucharist. He went among the people in what is now Switzerland trying to prevent their committing spiritual suicide on account of the scandals.

35 posted on 12/06/2013 8:17:45 AM PST by Servant of the Cross (the Truth will set you free)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: Servant of the Cross

I have this acutely uncomfortable feeling that you are looking for ways to criticize me.

Which is not what this thread is about. If I should come as disoriented and confused, well that’s exactly how I feel. I think one can be a devout Catholic and be so confused by lies and hypocrisy coming from the most important guy in my religion and still feel some urge to walk away from it....even if temporarily.

But you found your wedge and got in a dig at me.

Sorry....the Pope’s words were awful.

Keep trying to clean up his mess. Make sure that attacking those who question as part of the defense.

However you respond, you will have the last word.

I am not happy with the Pope. I might add that this is not the first time he’s been misinterpreted. Every time there was a “translation error”.

Like Obama before him, you only get so many lies before people stop listening.


36 posted on 12/06/2013 8:23:29 AM PST by Fishtalk (http://patfish.blogspot.com/)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: Fishtalk

It’s helpful to pray in times of crisis especially spiritual crisis.

I’ll pray for you.


37 posted on 12/06/2013 8:28:59 AM PST by FourtySeven (47)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: FourtySeven

Thank you.


38 posted on 12/06/2013 8:31:29 AM PST by Fishtalk (http://patfish.blogspot.com/)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: Fishtalk

The thing that is most disturbing is that Francis’ direction is 180 degrees from all previous pontiffs since Karl Marx. All of them, Pius IX, Leo XIII, Pius X, Benedict XV, Pius XI, Pius XII, John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul II, and Benedict XVI, wrote against Marxism, Communism, Socialism, and their variants. Many of them wrote entire encyclicals against Marxism. That Francis is not joining with them in their condemnations is the most telling of all.


39 posted on 12/06/2013 8:31:46 AM PST by nanetteclaret (Unreconstructed "Elderly Kooky Type" Catholic Texan)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Fishtalk
Au contraire. I have no intention to criticize you and I am not 'trying to clean up his mess'. I have merely proposed several alternative perspectives to your posts. If you have any discomfort at all from what I've posted, I would suggest it is solely internal.

The perspectives that I shared were only prompted by your post #2 where you described yourself as 'demoralized' and 'not knowing what to do'. It appears that I misread that. I am sorry for that.

Merry Christmas

40 posted on 12/06/2013 8:36:24 AM PST by Servant of the Cross (the Truth will set you free)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: nanetteclaret

It was the pope, John I think, who, along with Thatcher, and Reagan who brought down the Soviet Union!

Something is terribly not right. But maybe there’s a reason.

Maybe the Pope was told that if he didn’t come out against capitalism (and the many variations thereof in his tome) that a bunch of innocent people would be murdered in some village somewhere.

Okay, so I write fiction, I dunno. And somewhere upthread my story, however vague and second-hand as I recounted, about the North Korean priests advocates is also true.....man, nobody’s worse on this planet than those awful Jong-Il’s....father or son. And we have some priest order demanding respect for them?

Something’s not right here, something is not right.

For now I’ll not be knee-jerk. Now’s the time to be brave and stick to your principles. Don’t let them pee upon my feet and tell me it’s raining. Do not deny it when THE EMPEROR IS WEARING NO CLOTHES!

As for leaving my religion, come on, stop trying to make ME the bad guy here. I know when I kneel down to pray it’s to my God, not the Pope.

I’m going to stick around and fight this from within. Note my anecdote (and it IS but an anecdote bear in mind) about my own parish priest.

This is not setting well....this is my hunch.


41 posted on 12/06/2013 8:41:22 AM PST by Fishtalk (http://patfish.blogspot.com/)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

Comment #42 Removed by Moderator

To: steelhead_trout

America, the youngest of all nations. She is the Superpower and Work Leader, fastest migration growth and numer one in almost every other category in terms of success standards.
The main reasons ...Capitalism, Judeo Christian foundational values and the Constitution/Bill of Rights.
Those three building blocks are under masive assault from every angle. This is why you are now seeing the decline of America. Socialism, Marxism, Communism are not designed for rapid growth and prosperity. They are a means of control once the government decides it is satisfied with its current status. Like a choke collar on a race horse.


43 posted on 12/06/2013 8:52:35 AM PST by rwoodward ("god, guns and more ammo")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Fishtalk

Well, I believe it was St. John Eudes who said that when we get bad clergy it is because Our Lord is very angry with us. I can see how He would be extremely angry, since the Bishops did nothing to stop the legalization of abortion in this country, and they still allow pro-abortion politicians to receive Our Lord in Holy Communion. That is a major sacrilege! In addition, the Fatima requests have not been carried out properly. So, when you look at the bad clergy and this WEIRD pope in the context of Our Lord being angry, it all makes sense. The only thing you can do is pray and fast.

In addition, it was one of the stated Communist Goals to infiltrate the seminaries and subsequently the churches and hierarchy. Take everything you hear and read with a grain of salt and stay grounded in Holy Scripture and the Rosary.

I, for one, pay no attention whatsoever to what Francis says. If I want to find out what true and holy Popes have said on any subject, I will read St. Pius X or Leo XIII.


44 posted on 12/06/2013 8:54:03 AM PST by nanetteclaret (Unreconstructed "Elderly Kooky Type" Catholic Texan)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies]

To: Fishtalk

He’s no more a socialist or marxist than the man in the moon. Francis fought long and hard against liberation/marxist theology in Argentina, something that is lost on his bashers from the left and right. I thought Limbaugh was smarter than this. The brit Varney I could care less what he thinks.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/03/17/is-pope-francis-a-socialist-who-will-allow-liberation-theology-to-infiltrate-the-catholic-church/

Is Pope Francis (formerly known as Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio) a socialist who will allow liberation theology to infiltrate the Catholic Church? This question, when posed, caused Sam Gregg, research director at the Action Institute, a conservative think tank, to chuckle. TheBlaze interviewed Gregg on Friday to speak further about Francis’ take on poverty and social justice.

As over-the-top as the aforementioned curiosity sounds, since the pontiff’s election on Wednesday, some have quietly been voicing concerns. And there’s no doubt that outlets, pundits and political observers, alike, have spent the past week exploring Francis’ background in an effort to better understand where he stands on the economic front.

A LOVER OF LIBERATION THEOLOGY AND SOCIALISM?

So, what’s the verdict?

Well, it’s clear from his past and present statements and behaviors that Pope Francis cares deeply about the poor and that he lives a very humble and — by all accounts — modest life (he cooked his own meals, took public transportation and decided not to live in lavish quarters). But how far does this devotion to the poor go? Is Francis concerned with government structure and taxation or will he stick firmly to the faith and encouraging believers to help those in need?

This quest for context and its associated curiosities, of course, is nothing new. Whenever a new pope is elected, the public and media, alike, look incessantly for any and all information that will shed light on the new-found faith leader’s character and a past actions. And considering that the Catholic Church has 1.2 billion members across the globe, Pope Francis’ viewpoints matter, mostly because of the control and influence he will have over believers.

During a phone interview, Gregg explained Francis’ background and dismissed any claims that the pontiff is a socialist or has connections with liberation theology. As for the latter movement, the researcher explained that this ideology never took off in Argentina as it did in other Latin American countries — and, in fact, he credited Francis for liberation theology’s overall failure in the country.


45 posted on 12/06/2013 9:51:46 AM PST by NKP_Vet
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: nanetteclaret

I’m sorry to read the sentiments you have expressed in this post.


46 posted on 12/06/2013 10:12:20 AM PST by Running On Empty (The three sorriest words: "It's too late")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 44 | View Replies]

To: nanetteclaret

Are you aware that the media zoomed in on about one page of his exhortation.

He really didn’t say the things that media is broadcasting at all....a lot of mistranslation — especially the “trickle down” part.


47 posted on 12/06/2013 10:20:00 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

To: NKP_Vet; Fishtalk; The Sons of Liberty

Thank you for this post.

As someone with close ties to family in Argentina (including priests), I know that what you have written here is correct.

I feel a deep regret for much that has been expressed here on this thread, some of which I think has been hasty judgment, some of which is tantamont to slander-—which is a serious offense, even when shrouded by the anonymity of the internet.

I am now learning what that expression “some people are more holy than the Pope” actually means.

I came into the Church as a incredibly happy convert in 1949. Ever since Pius XII, there have been complaints about the Pope. Complaints about Pope Pius XII, about John the 23rd, about Paul the 6th, about John Paul II, about Pope Benedict. The Only Pope that didn’t get any flack was our “smiling September Pope”, John Paul I. (and that for obvious reasons). This barrage of defamatory remarks doesn’t exactly square with the prayers that are invoked for the Holy Father at every Mass offered throughout the world every day.

Seeing the way things are being being addressed here, I am becoming more and more convinced that Pope Francis could very well be the Pope that was envisioned by St. John Boscoe in his famous vision. In that vision he saw a Pope guiding the barque of Peter, being thrreatened from the left and from the right of the ship, but staying at the helm and guiding it through the 2 great Pillars of our faith-—two pillars to which Pope Francis has openly expressed fidelity.


48 posted on 12/06/2013 10:36:32 AM PST by Running On Empty (The three sorriest words: "It's too late")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 45 | View Replies]

To: steelhead_trout
The American Conservative is yearning for the good old day of Father Coughlin.
49 posted on 12/06/2013 11:16:59 AM PST by Zionist Conspirator (The Left: speaking power to truth since Shevirat HaKelim.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Zionist Conspirator

Ouch!


50 posted on 12/06/2013 11:17:30 AM PST by dfwgator (Fire Muschamp. Go Michigan State!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 49 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-75 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson