Would Someone Just Shut That Pope Up? (no, he doesn't really mean that!)

The American Conservative ^ | 12/5/2013 | Patrick J. Deneen

[steelhead_trout]

Since the release of Evangelii Gaudium there have been countless articles and commentary about the economic portions of Pope Francis’s Apostolic Exhortation. Some of the commentary has been downright bizarre, such as Rush Limbaugh denouncing the Pope as a Marxist, or Stuart Varney accusing Francis of being a neo-socialist.

Not far below the surface of many of these critiques one hears the following refrain: why can’t the Pope just go back to talking about abortion? Why can’t we return the good old days of Pope John Paul II or Benedict XVI and talk 24/7/365 about sex? Why doesn’t Francis have the decency to limit himself to talking about Jesus and gays, while avoiding the rudeness of discussing economics in mixed company, an issue about which he has no expertise or competence?

These commentators all but come and out say: we embrace Catholic teaching when it concerns itself with “faith and morals”—when it denounces abortion, opposes gay marriage, and urges personal charity. This is the Catholicism that has been acceptable in polite conversation. This is a stripped-down Catholicism that doesn’t challenge fundamental articles of economic faith.

And it turns out that this version of Catholicism is a useful tool. It is precisely this portion of Catholicism that is acceptable to those who control the right narrative because it doesn’t truly endanger what’s most important to those who steer the Republic: maintaining an economic system premised upon limitless extraction, fostering of endless desires, and creating a widening gap between winners and losers that is papered over by mantras about favoring equality of opportunity.

[Mr Rogers]

“maintaining an economic system premised upon limitless extraction, fostering of endless desires, and creating a widening gap between winners and losers that is papered over by mantras about favoring equality of opportunity.”

All you need to read to know this guy is full of poop!

Capitalism works to help ALL. Look at the poor in America vs the poor in Argentina, and then TRY telling me the Pope’s ideas on the economy are wonderful...

[Irenic]

That is what I don’t understand. There are plenty of politicians and such that go around talking about equal wealth distribution, that area of human life is covered just fine.

There is a huge empty hole in peoples lives nowadays and in that hole God needs to be poured. I should think that would be something the Pope could really help the world with. Money will NEVER, EVER, fill that void— help the world find God’s love, Pope Francis.

Money talk is just more background noise.

[MrB]

Yes, the church should be about salvation.

But if you have a worldly (focusing on what to DO instead of on what Christ DID) view of the achievement of that salvation instead of God’s one and only plan,

then you’re going to venture into a collective salvation model that he’s talking about,

instead of an individual relationship based salvation.

[Fishtalk]

I remind again that OBAMA QUOTED THE POPE IMMEDIATELY!

Obama could care less about the pope. How convenient that the pope should give Obama another talking point besides Obamacare.

Now Mandela died and Obama has a week to become the next Mandela....with the pope’s blessing.

I’m thinking of walking away from my religion....just, poof, walking away.

And did y’all hear about those priests in South Korea all in favor of North Korea....their order is something like Catholic Priests for the restoration of North Korea or some such?

Which would be no mind as there are nuts everywhere but THESE GUYS ARE SANCTIONED BY THE VATICAN!!!

What Pope Francis said was devastating to the church....right at the time when the lawsuits are almost done, when a big capital campaign is ongoing, when free books and groups meetings are being given and scheduled to promote more evangelization of Catholicism.

Right now I’m ashamed of my religion, much less eager to preach its doctrine.

Maybe I’m alone but as a devout and active Catholic, if the Pope’s alienated me I suspect there are plenty others just as disgusted.

[Fishtalk]

Amen.

[Irenic]

I’m going to ramble a bit here because it is important to me and your comment makes me feel comfortable. It is what I’m looking for. (so many I’s and me’s I read like Obama)

I don’t do church and I believe in part because when I was young my Granny was sick and had missed several Sunday’s at church. Nobody had come around to her house but her church sure sent a bill.

My mother attends church and I’ve told her that story and that is part of my reason why I don’t like churches. She told me that my Granny (I can’t ask her now, she’s gone)that my Granny pledged money and that’s why.

Well. wouldn’t that be like a contract then? She pledges money to her church but what is the churches responsibility or part of the contract? Just to collect the pledge?

Isn’t their part to attend to her spiritual life—why didn’t they come around to visit and check on her? She may have failed to give money but they failed her heart—I know, I was there and it hurt her.

I also hear church politics from my mother—I don’t like that. I’ve noticed some people holding church in their homes, I am thinking I could enjoy that but I’m apprehensive.

The thing is, I was excited about some of what Pope Francis said at first but it started to go down hill after that. This last one really was a final straw for me. No, I don’t need the church to talk about money, abortion or homosexuality. I want to hear about the bible and through the bible I will learn these truths.

I’m not an educated person and sometimes I fall asleep reading the same line in the bible over and over again—trying to wrap my mind around it— in hopes that one more reading will help me understand it. It feels like when I first learned to drive on a standard shift car...clunk...lurch...clunk.

That’s what I’m looking for in spiritual leaders—help me understand the bible. Help me to get closer to God through understanding. Maybe if I understood better I wouldn’t fall down so often and my life would get better. If I am a better person through understanding God, won’t I then be a better person to others around me?

I don’t like driving by huge churches with scrolling signs—it’s ugly and cold. Just teach me about God, help me understand and develop a closer relationship to God. That’s what I had hoped from in the Pope, I am disappointed.

I suppose one good thing about pope Francis— he sure has made more of us start talking about our beliefs— even if by controversy.

[MrB]

I’m sorry to hear that your Granny’s church didn’t serve widows and orphans as they are charged to do. That’s a shame. Also, don’t be surprised, this side of the Second Coming, that churches have sinners in them! Everyone but Christ will, at some time, let you down.

I think you would do well with finding a home church, or you can look up a “family integrated” church in your area, but they’re rare. In the end, though, it’s not the church that’s important, it’s the authority of the Bible that’s important. Pray for a Godly older mentor that loves God’s Word.

Don’t get too concerned about reading the same passage over and over again. That is a VERY GOOD thing to happen to you. The Bible is incomprehensible without the “Interpreter” of the indwelt Holy Spirit, and He prompts you to dwell on certain passages. I’ve been reading along and just got this “STOP” signal. “Dwell on this.” “Selah”.

No problem with “rambling” - I feel blessed to share in your struggles.

[Irenic]

“Pray for a Godly older mentor that loves God’s Word.”

I will. I thank you sincerely for your time and direction.

[steelhead_trout]

“The most “fundamental articles of economic faith” are these, and you rarely hear them talked about in Catholic circles:

“You shall not steal.”
— Exodus 20:15
“You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male servant, or his female servant, or his ox, or his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor’s.”
— Exodus 20:17

---

Christians have the Gospels (and, if Roman Catholic, the Magisterium), not just the Torah, the law of Moses.

[Salvation]

Matthew Kelley is an astounding writer. I’ve read several of his books.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

A better book to read would be Rediscovering Christ. He alone never fails or disappoints. He alone is the Door to salvation. He alone never changes. He alone satisfies.

[Salvation]

How many times did Jesus act or talk about money?

LUKE, CHAPTER 6:20 And raising his eyes toward his disciples he said: “Blessed are you who are poor, for the kingdom of God is yours.
Overturning the moneychangers tables in the temple
Naming a tax collector as an apostle
The story of the 10. 5, and 1 talent
The widow’s mite
One cannot serve God and Mammon
Give unto Caesar what is Caesar’s and unto God what is God’s
Blessed are the poor
What about the prayers of the Pharisee who stood in the front and bragged, and the prayers of the common poor man who stood in the back and prayed?
The Magnificat — He has put down the mighty from their thrones, and has exalted the lowly.
“Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” ~ 19:24
“You are lacking one thing. Sell everything you have and give the proceeds to the poor. Then you shall have treasure in heaven.”

[Salvation]

Subsidiarity.

Repeat After Me: Subsidiarity & Solidarity
Subsidiarity and Human Dignity
Does the USCCB Understand Subsidiarity?
[CATHOLIC CAUCUS] The Principle of Subsidiarity
[CATHOLIC/ORTHODOX CAUCUS] Subsidiarity Over Social Justice
What is the USCCB’s problem with subsidiarity?
Subsidiarity: Where Justice and Freedom Coexist
Health reform still full of thorny problems for Catholics (Vasa comes out for subsidiarity)
What You [Catholics] Need to Know: Subsidiarity, [Catholic/Orthodox Caucus]
Catholic Word of the Day: SUBSIDIARITY, 06-11-09

[Col Freeper]

LOL, that sure sounds familiar. Been there and done that many times.

I spent more than 45 years avoiding the Lord, his teachings, and all churches.

But (looking back now) he had his hand on me all the time, slowly but surely guiding me back to him.

I've zoned out on a particular section of scripture many times.

I've fallen asleep reading about all the "begetting" going on in the Old Testament.

I've confused the names of the Apostles, trying to get them straight in my mind.

I've tried (and dropped) many different suggested recommendations concerning "how to read through your bible".

I've absorbed much, and not absorbed other, scripture in Sunday School.

I've listened intently to the Pastor's teaching on a section of scripture, and at times mentally wandered away during one of his teachings.

I've read about many different Religions and what/how they approach the Lord.

I've told my wife (when first going back to church) that I would not be singing in church, only to find myself somehow standing beside her and singing away, and enjoying it (the Holy Spirit is a mighty force indeed).

I have encountered scripture, that I couldn't get my head around before, and now it was suddenly perfectly clear to me (the Holy Spirit is a mighty, clarifying teacher), and realized it was because I wasn't ready the first time.

I have come to the realization that scripture "sticks to me" much better when I understand the context surrounding it. (This free software has been very helpful [www.e-sword.net] because of all the free Bibles/Dictionaries/Commentaries/etc. that are available in digital form. I have a copy of it on my desktop and my laptop and refer to it often -- LOL, many times while reading threads on the FR Religious forum.)

I have stopped worrying about all my starts and stops in my goal of understanding scripture and accept that my naturally sinful nature will make me stumble from time to time (and there's that certain Fallen Angel who likes to see me fail), but because the Lord and the Holy Spirit lead me, I am on the right path, and my understanding steadily grows.

This somewhat long-winded dissertation is meant to reassure you that there is at least one other person who is in the same boat as you -- so take heart, continue to believe on the Lord, and the Holy Spirit will guide you ever closer to him.

May God Bless you and yours.

[Servant of the Cross]

I’m thinking of walking away from my religion....just, poof, walking away.

... as a devout and active Catholic ...

IMHO, there perhaps may be a slight contradiction within this ...?

Saint Francis de Sales was one example of a life eager to preach Catholicism. In a homily (given by Fr. Roger Landry) about the horrific child abuse by priests scandal, he referenced the words of St. Francis de Sales who said ...

"Those who commit these types of scandals are guilty of the spiritual equivalent of murder," destroying other people's faith in God by their terrible example. But then he warned his listeners, "But I'm here among you to prevent something far worse for you. While those who give scandal are guilty of the spiritual equivalent of murder, those who take scandal — who allow scandals to destroy their faith — are guilty of spiritual suicide." They're guilty, he said, of cutting off their life with Christ, abandoning the source of life in the Sacraments, especially the Eucharist. He went among the people in what is now Switzerland trying to prevent their committing spiritual suicide on account of the scandals.

[Fishtalk]

I have this acutely uncomfortable feeling that you are looking for ways to criticize me.

Which is not what this thread is about. If I should come as disoriented and confused, well that’s exactly how I feel. I think one can be a devout Catholic and be so confused by lies and hypocrisy coming from the most important guy in my religion and still feel some urge to walk away from it....even if temporarily.

But you found your wedge and got in a dig at me.

Sorry....the Pope’s words were awful.

Keep trying to clean up his mess. Make sure that attacking those who question as part of the defense.

However you respond, you will have the last word.

I am not happy with the Pope. I might add that this is not the first time he’s been misinterpreted. Every time there was a “translation error”.

Like Obama before him, you only get so many lies before people stop listening.

[FourtySeven]

It’s helpful to pray in times of crisis especially spiritual crisis.

I’ll pray for you.

[Fishtalk]

Thank you.

[nanetteclaret]

The thing that is most disturbing is that Francis’ direction is 180 degrees from all previous pontiffs since Karl Marx. All of them, Pius IX, Leo XIII, Pius X, Benedict XV, Pius XI, Pius XII, John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul II, and Benedict XVI, wrote against Marxism, Communism, Socialism, and their variants. Many of them wrote entire encyclicals against Marxism. That Francis is not joining with them in their condemnations is the most telling of all.

[Servant of the Cross]

Au contraire. I have no intention to criticize you and I am not 'trying to clean up his mess'. I have merely proposed several alternative perspectives to your posts. If you have any discomfort at all from what I've posted, I would suggest it is solely internal.

The perspectives that I shared were only prompted by your post #2 where you described yourself as 'demoralized' and 'not knowing what to do'. It appears that I misread that. I am sorry for that.

Merry Christmas