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John 6 and the Eucharist
Tim Staples' Blog ^ | November 19, 2013 | Tim Staples

Posted on 12/12/2013 7:50:01 AM PST by GonzoII

John 6 and the Eucharist


 

In my 2011 debate with Dr. Peter Barnes, a Presbyterian minister and apologist in Australia, the topic was the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, and it centered on Jesus’ famous words in John 6:53: “Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you have no life in you.” After about three hours of debate, I could sum up Barnes’s central objection in one sentence—a sentence which just happens to be found in the New Testament:

How can this man give us his flesh to eat? (John 6:53)

Dr. Barnes could not, and would not, deny the Lord said what he said in Scripture. His only recourse (as is the case with all who deny the real presence), ultimately, was to claim Jesus was speaking “metaphorically.” And after all, he had to be… right? I mean, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” In other words, his ultimate objection to the Catholic and biblical position is not so much rooted in the text as it is in a fundamental incredulity when it comes to the words of the text.

I argued in that debate, and I will again in this post, that if we examine the text carefully, not only is there nothing in it that indicates Jesus was speaking purely metaphorically, but the text itself actually points in the opposite direction.

Here are the Facts

First, everyone listening to Jesus’ actual discourse 2,000 years ago believed him to have meant what he said. That is significant. This is in stark contrast to other places in the gospel where Jesus did, in fact, speak purely metaphorically. For example, when Jesus spoke of himself as a “door” in John 10, or a “vine” in John 15, we find no one to have asked, “How can this man be a door made out of wood?” Or, “How can this man claim to be a plant?”

Compare these to John 6. Jesus plainly says, in verse 51, “I am the bread come down from heaven and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world” (vs. 51). The Jews immediately respond, as I said above, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?’” They certainly understood him to mean what he said.

Moreover, when people misunderstand Jesus, he normally clears up the misunderstanding as we see in John 4:31-34 when the disciples urge our Lord to eat and our Lord responds, “I have food to eat which you do not know.” The disciples ask each other if anyone had brought any food because they thought our Lord was saying he had to bring his own food because they had forgotten to do so. They misunderstand him. But our Lord immediately clears things up saying, in verse 34, “My food is to do the will of him who sent me, and to accomplish his work.”

A Real Barnes Burner

In our debate, Dr. Barnes had a very interesting rejoinder to this point. He claimed, in essence, that in at least some cases when his listeners misunderstood our Lord, he purposely made no attempt to clear up the misunderstandings. And Dr. Barnes then cited three more examples claiming this to be a pattern in the gospels.

1. In John 3:3-4, Dr. Barnes claimed, Jesus left Nicodemus in the dark when after he declared to him, “… unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God,” Nicodemus responded, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”

Response: Even a brief perusal of John 3 and John 6 shows a substantial difference between the two. In John 6:52-53, the Jews were “disputing among themselves and saying, ‘How can this man give us his flesh to eat?’” That is the context in which Jesus then appears to confirm them in their thoughts and reiterates, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.”

No matter how one interprets Jesus’ response to Nicodemus beginning in John 3:5, he doesn’t come close to saying anything like, “Amen, amen I say to you, unless you climb back into your mother’s womb a second time and be born anew, you cannot have eternal life.” He says you must be “born of water and spirit… the wind blows where it will, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know whence it comes or whither it goes; so it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit (vs. 5-8).” This seems to me to be clarification that he is not speaking about climbing back into a mother’s womb. Being “born anew” is a spiritual experience that transcends literal birth from a womb.

2. In John 4:7-15, Dr. Barnes claimed, Jesus left the famous “Samaritan woman at the well” in her misunderstanding when she thought Jesus was offering her literal, physical water. But is that really what we find in the text?

Response: When Jesus asked this Samaritan woman for a drink in verse seven, she was most likely not only shocked that a Rabbi would speak to a Samaritan woman in public, but that any Jew would ask an “unclean” Samaritan to draw water for him. But in verse 10, Jesus answered her,

If you knew the gift of God, and who it is that is saying to you, “Give me a drink,” you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water.

The woman then responds, in verse 11, “Sir, you have nothing to draw with, and the well is deep; where do you get that living water?” To which, Jesus responds, in verse 13-14,

Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again, but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst; the water that I shall give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.

In verse 15, the woman then begs our Lord, “Sir, give me this water, that I may not thirst, nor come here to draw.”

There is no doubt the Samaritan woman has it wrong here. But far from leaving her in her error, our Lord responds most profoundly, beginning in verse 16, “Go, call your husband…” And when the woman responds, “I have no husband,” in verse 17, Jesus reads her soul and tells her, “You are right… for you have had five husbands, and he whom you now have is not your husband.”

He now has her attention, to say the least. And he then turns the conversation to what he was really speaking about in terms of the “living water” he came to give that would “well up to eternal life.” In verse 23, he declares,

But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for such the Father seeks to worship him. [24] God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.

When the woman then responds, in verse 25, “I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ); when he comes, he will show us all things,” Jesus then tells her plainly, in verse 26, “I who speak to you am he.”

It seems clear that the woman then understood that Jesus’ words were metaphorical concerning the “living water,” because she immediately “left her water jar,” went back to her fellow countrymen and urged them to, “Come, see a man who told me all that I ever did. Can this be the Christ” (verses 28-29)? And according to verse 39, “Many Samaritans… believed in him because of the woman’s testimony.” Notice, she did not go and say, “You’ve got to meet this man that will give us a limitless supply of water!” She came to realize Jesus was about much more than filling war jars.

3. Dr. Barnes also claimed that when Christ said “beware of the leaven of the Pharisees” in Matthew 16:6, the apostles thought he was speaking literal, which is true. But Matthew 16:11-12 could hardly be plainer that Jesus did not leave them in their ignorance:

How is it that you fail to perceive that I did not speak about bread… Then they understood that he did not tell them to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees.

Spirit vs. Flesh

There is much more about the text of John 6 and the greater context of the New Testament in general that make a “Catholic” understanding of John 6:53 unavoidable. In our debate, Dr. Barnes and I grapple with many of those texts.

But John 6:63 is probably the most important of all to deal with as a Catholic apologist. This is a verse that is set within a context where not only “the Jews” who were listening, but specifically “the disciples” themselves were struggling with what Jesus said about “eating his flesh” and “drinking his blood.” “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it” (verse 60)? It is in this context that our Lord says to the disciples: “It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.”

The Protestant apologist will almost invariably say of this text, “See? Christ is not giving us his flesh to eat because he says ‘the flesh is of no avail.’”

There are at least four points to consider in response:

1. If Jesus was clearing up the point here, he’s a lousy teacher because he didn’t get his point across. According to verse 66, “many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him” immediately after this statement. They obviously still believed his earlier words about “eating [his] flesh” to be literal because these “disciples” had already believed in and followed him for some time. If Jesus was here saying, “I only meant that you have to believe in me and follow me,” why would they be walking away?

2. Jesus did not say, “My flesh is of no avail.” He said, “The flesh is of no avail.” There is a big difference! He obviously would not have said my flesh avails nothing because he just spent a good portion of this same discourse telling us that his flesh would be “given for the life of the world” (John 6:51, cf. 50-58).

“The flesh” is a New Testament term often used to describe human nature apart from God’s grace (see Romans 8:1-14; I Cor. 2:14; 3:1; Mark 14:38).

3. That which is “spiritual,” or “spirit” used as an adjective as we see in John 6:63, does not necessarily refer to that which has no material substance. It often means that which is dominated or controlled by the Spirit. For example, when speaking of the resurrection of the body, St. Paul writes: “It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body” (I Cor. 15:44). Does this mean we will not have a physical body in the resurrection? Of course not! Jesus made that clear after his own resurrection in Luke 24:39:

See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; handle me, and see; for a spirit has not flesh and bones as you see that I have.

The resurrected body is spiritual and indeed we can be called spiritual as Christians inasmuch as we are controlled by the Spirit of God. Spiritual in no way means void of the material. That would be a Gnostic understanding of things, not Christian.

4. In verses 61-62, Jesus had just said, “Do you take offence at this? Then what if you were to see the Son of man ascending where he was before?”

Jesus wants to ensure the apostles do not fall into a sort of crass literalism that would see the truth of the Eucharist in terms of gnawing bones and sinew. It is the Holy Spirit that will accomplish the miracle of Christ being able to ascend into heaven bodily while also being able to distribute his body and blood in the Eucharist for the life of the world. A human body—even a perfect one—apart from the power of the Spirit could not accomplish this.

Thus, Jesus words, “It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail” refers to the truth that it is only the Spirit that can accomplish the miracle of the Eucharist and it is only the Holy Spirit that can empower us to believe the miracle.



TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; General Discusssion; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic; eucharist; timstaples

"Jesus did not say, “My flesh is of no avail.”
He said, “The flesh is of no avail.” "

1 posted on 12/12/2013 7:50:01 AM PST by GonzoII
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To: GonzoII

Amen


2 posted on 12/12/2013 8:00:46 AM PST by frogjerk (We are conservatives. Not libertarians, not "fiscal conservatives", not moderates)
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To: GonzoII
Thus, Jesus words, “It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail” refers to the truth that it is only the Spirit that can accomplish the miracle of the Eucharist and it is only the Holy Spirit that can empower us to believe the miracle.

Perfect example of biblical eisegesis ...

John is the only gospel that doesnt mention the Lords Table during the passover. If John 6 is meant to foreshadow the "real presence," then his omission in the upper room discourse is not answerable with a cogent explanation. It will always be "John didnt have to mention it because the other 3 did ..."

3 posted on 12/12/2013 8:13:48 AM PST by dartuser
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To: GonzoII

for later


4 posted on 12/12/2013 8:31:38 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: GonzoII

On the surface of things, why would one want to argue against the bodily presence of Christ is His Supper? Of what benefit is it to participate in Christ only by way of Platonic notions? No wonder it has been the practice of the Church to catechize and commune only those who take Christ at His Word, and do not turn away when the sayings are hard.


5 posted on 12/12/2013 8:41:45 AM PST by Fester Chugabrew
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To: dartuser
So is John 6:22-71 not in your Bible? Go figure? Plerase notice that Jesus lets the non-believer go -- so Good-bye to all who don't believe in the REAL PRESENCE.

John, chapter 6

 

The Bread of Life Discourse.

22* The next day, the crowd that remained across the sea saw that there had been only one boat there, and that Jesus had not gone along with his disciples in the boat, but only his disciples had left. 23* Other boats came from Tiberias near the place where they had eaten the bread when the Lord gave thanks. 24When the crowd saw that neither Jesus nor his disciples were there, they themselves got into boats and came to Capernaum looking for Jesus. 25And when they found him across the sea they said to him, “Rabbi, when did you get here?” 26Jesus answered them and said, “Amen, amen, I say to you, you are looking for me not because you saw signs but because you ate the loaves and were filled. 27Do not work for food that perishes but for the food that endures for eternal life,* which the Son of Man will give you. For on him the Father, God, has set his seal.”l 28So they said to him, “What can we do to accomplish the works of God?” 29Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in the one he sent.” 30So they said to him, “What sign can you do, that we may see and believe in you? What can you do?m 31* Our ancestors ate manna in the desert, as it is written:n

‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’”

32So Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave the bread from heaven; my Father gives you the true bread from heaven.o 33For the bread of God is that which comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”

34p So they said to him, “Sir, give us this bread always.” 35* Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me will never hunger, and whoever believes in me will never thirst.q 36But I told you that although you have seen [me], you do not believe.r 37Everything that the Father gives me will come to me, and I will not reject anyone who comes to me, 38because I came down from heaven not to do my own will but the will of the one who sent me.s 39And this is the will of the one who sent me, that I should not lose anything of what he gave me, but that I should raise it [on] the last day.t 40For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in him may have eternal life, and I shall raise him [on] the last day.”u

41The Jews murmured about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven,” 42and they said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph? Do we not know his father and mother? Then how can he say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?”v 43Jesus answered and said to them, “Stop murmuring* among yourselves.w 44No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draw him, and I will raise him on the last day. 45It is written in the prophets:

‘They shall all be taught by God.’

Everyone who listens to my Father and learns from him comes to me.x 46Not that anyone has seen the Father except the one who is from God; he has seen the Father.y 47Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. 48I am the bread of life. 49Your ancestors ate the manna in the desert, but they died;z 50this is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat it and not die. 51I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.”a

52The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us [his] flesh to eat?” 53Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. 54Whoever eats* my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. 55For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. 57Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.b 58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever.” 59These things he said while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

The Words of Eternal Life.*

60Then many of his disciples who were listening said, “This saying is hard; who can accept it?” 61Since Jesus knew that his disciples were murmuring about this, he said to them, “Does this shock you? 62What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?* 63It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh* is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64But there are some of you who do not believe.” Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him.c 65And he said, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father.”

66As a result of this, many [of] his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him. 67Jesus then said to the Twelve, “Do you also want to leave?” 68Simon Peter answered him, “Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69We have come to believe and are convinced that you are the Holy One of God.”d 70Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you twelve? Yet is not one of you a devil?” 71He was referring to Judas, son of Simon the Iscariot; it was he who would betray him, one of the Twelve.


6 posted on 12/12/2013 8:43:40 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

Please notice


7 posted on 12/12/2013 8:44:26 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: GonzoII

John 6:
53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

Jesus spoke and taught in parables and metaphors. He didn’t mean to actually EAT His flesh or drink His blood. He didn’t mean to eat a wafer, cracker, or drink grape juice or wine. Maybe you should ask the Holy Spirit to explain it to you. It’s about wholeheartedly, completely, believing in HIM. It’s totally accepting Him, making Him your one and only God. Taking in His teachings and commandments and living a righteous life that makes Him proud.

If you want to eat wafers and drink wine as a “symbol” of those things mentioned above, then I wouldn’t be a stumbling block to you.

Romans 14:
4 “Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.”

But, Jesus IS the “Truth”.

John 8:
“..... Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

To claim that the wafer actually IS Jesus’ body and the wine actually IS Jesus’ blood, seems to totally miss the point. Eating a wafer gives you what, Jesus vitamins? “You are what you eat”, is that it? No, it’s taking in His love and teachings. It’s living FOR Him. You have “free will”. He wants you to CHOOSE to do what is good, not to “choose” to eat a wafer.

Before you attack me, Don’t waste your time. I don’t read responses. I stand by what I said, let God be my judge.


8 posted on 12/12/2013 8:50:10 AM PST by faucetman ( Just the facts, ma'am, Just the facts)
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To: Salvation
Didn't answer the question.

Can you give a cogent answer as to why, if John 6 refers to the eucharist, he doesnt mention it where it has the most meaning ... namely, the upper room discourse?

9 posted on 12/12/2013 9:01:47 AM PST by dartuser
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To: Salvation
So is John 6:22-71 not in your Bible?

It is ... I just don't read it through the lens of Romanist doctrine.

10 posted on 12/12/2013 9:02:37 AM PST by dartuser
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To: GonzoII
John 6 and the Eucharist

The hubris to think that a created human by magic can
turn a Pesach Matzoh into the Creator of the universe.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
11 posted on 12/12/2013 9:07:52 AM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your teaching is my delight.)
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To: GonzoII

Christ dwells in our hearts through faith.

We don’t need to eat Him.

The flesh profits nothing. The words Jesus spoke are SPIRIT and truth.


12 posted on 12/12/2013 9:09:43 AM PST by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith....)
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To: Fester Chugabrew
On the surface of things, why would one want to argue against the bodily presence of Christ is His Supper?

You can ask exactly why the opposite is not argued. Why would a Romanist argue FOR the bodily presence?

I think the answer is simple ... Roman doctrine REQUIRES it ... since there is no life in anyone who does not partake of it ... of necessity partaking of the eucharist is NECESSARY for salvation.

13 posted on 12/12/2013 9:12:00 AM PST by dartuser
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To: Salvation

So where are all the people who are 2,000 years old who never died because they ate the eucharist?

For that matter, why are there Catholics dying by the day when they eat the eucharist?

After all, Jesus did say that those who eat Him will never die.

What’s with this death thing going around among Catholics then?


14 posted on 12/12/2013 9:13:37 AM PST by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith....)
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To: dartuser

You keep using the term “Romanist” as a pejorative.

Perhaps you do not know that the Eastern Orthodox Church and Oriental Orthodox Churches all agree with the Real Presence?

I understand that John Calvin defended it as well. Perhaps just another guy following Romanist doctrine?


15 posted on 12/12/2013 9:30:31 AM PST by FormerLib (Sacrificing our land and our blood cannot buy protection from jihad.-Bishop Artemije of Kosovo)
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To: metmom

eternally die. Please think about this.


16 posted on 12/12/2013 9:33:16 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: metmom

are you not familiar with the Gospel of the souls arising from their graves at the Crucifixion of Christ — visible only to the believers? These were the souls who had been waiting for Christ to be the first person into heaven.

What happened to your catechesis?


17 posted on 12/12/2013 9:34:53 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: metmom


The Catholics will likely answer that the "life" and "death" being spoken of here are spiritual life and death; i.e. salvation and damnation. A point which I would agree. Whatever is meant by "eating my flesh and drinking my blood" in John 6 is something that is both necessary and sufficient for salvation. Which is a problem for the Catholic position, since even they would say that taking the Eucharist is neither necessary nor sufficient for salvation. So, what could "eating my flesh and drinking my blood" mean, then? How about faith? A true, abiding, transforming faith so genuine that it takes a metaphors of consumption or rebirth to adequately describe it. Similar to OT prophets eating a scroll; the words are consumed and assimilated; made part of self. Consider that the "good" thief had faith and faith alone. Necessary and sufficient.
18 posted on 12/12/2013 9:35:41 AM PST by armydoc
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To: dartuser
Is a Romanist one who lives in Rome?

Are you not aware that there are many rites of the Catholic Church? Please check out the chart in this link -- for we are all Catholics -- not Romanists. LOL!

THE RITES OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH -- There are many!

19 posted on 12/12/2013 9:37:27 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: dartuser

The sacred Scriptures say it plainly enough, so that one is more surprised to find it spoken against, except that the world is not inclined to receive Him Who created all things.


20 posted on 12/12/2013 9:37:50 AM PST by Fester Chugabrew
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To: UriÂ’el-2012

Christ was fully human, yes, but also fully God. Sorry that you might not believe this.


21 posted on 12/12/2013 9:39:44 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation
Christ was fully human, yes, but also fully God. Sorry that you might not believe this.

"Christ" is not someone's NAME

"Christ" is Not Yah'shua's Last NAME.

"Christ" is a JOB DESCRIPTION: Messiah or Mashiach

Eucharist :
The hubris to think that a created human by magic can
turn a Pesach Matzoh into the Creator of the universe.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
22 posted on 12/12/2013 10:03:57 AM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your teaching is my delight.)
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To: Salvation
are you not familiar with the Gospel of the souls arising from their graves at the Crucifixion of Christ — visible only to the believers?

The text in Matt 27 does not say they appeared only to believers. It says they went into Jerusalem and appeared to many.

Given the makeup of Jerusalem the day of His resurrection ... I would say the appearance was probably to unbelievers mostly.

23 posted on 12/12/2013 10:04:52 AM PST by dartuser
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To: dartuser

Many could also mean the many believers.

The Jews did not see these figures. Do you have proof that the Pharisees or Sadducees saw the risen from their graves. I will wage that your answer is “No.”


24 posted on 12/12/2013 10:18:25 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: dartuser
Footnote from my Bible.

* [27:5153] Veil of the sanctuary…bottom: cf. Mk 15:38; Lk 23:45. Luke puts this event immediately before the death of Jesus. There were two veils in the Mosaic tabernacle on the model of which the temple was constructed, the outer one before the entrance of the Holy Place and the inner one before the Holy of Holies (see Ex 26:3136). Only the high priest could pass through the latter and that only on the Day of Atonement (see Lv 16:118). Probably the torn veil of the gospels is the inner one. The meaning of the scene may be that now, because of Jesus’ death, all people have access to the presence of God, or that the temple, its holiest part standing exposed, is now profaned and will soon be destroyed. The earth quaked…appeared to many: peculiar to Matthew. The earthquake, the splitting of the rocks, and especially the resurrection of the dead saints indicate the coming of the final age. In the Old Testament the coming of God is frequently portrayed with the imagery of an earthquake (see Ps 68:9; 77:19), and Jesus speaks of the earthquakes that will accompany the “labor pains” that signify the beginning of the dissolution of the old world (Mt 24:78). For the expectation of the resurrection of the dead at the coming of the new and final age, see Dn 12:13. Matthew knows that the end of the old age has not yet come (Mt 28:20), but the new age has broken in with the death (and resurrection; cf. the earthquake in Mt 28:2) of Jesus; see note on Mt 16:28. After his resurrection: this qualification seems to be due to Matthew’s wish to assert the primacy of Jesus’ resurrection even though he has placed the resurrection of the dead saints immediately after Jesus’ death.


25 posted on 12/12/2013 10:19:46 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation
Many could also mean the many believers.

You're making this up as you go.

The Jews did not see these figures.

That's not in the text ... that is your interpolation of the text.

Do you have proof that the Pharisees or Sadducees saw the risen from their graves.

The text says MANY ... it doesn't seperate out believers and non-believers ...

26 posted on 12/12/2013 10:28:50 AM PST by dartuser
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To: metmom
"The flesh profits nothing."

The flesh of Christ is of no profit??

Mt 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

2. Jesus did not say, “My flesh is of no avail.” He said, “The flesh is of no avail.” There is a big difference! He obviously would not have said my flesh avails nothing because he just spent a good portion of this same discourse telling us that his flesh would be “given for the life of the world” (John 6:51, cf. 50-58).

27 posted on 12/12/2013 11:04:56 AM PST by GonzoII (Ted Cruz/Susana Martinez 2016)
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To: Salvation
So is John 6:22-71 not in your Bible? Go figure? Plerase notice that Jesus lets the non-believer go -- so Good-bye to all who don't believe in the REAL PRESENCE.

Your little addition there is not at all biblical...That's the mark of Catholics...Always adding to scripture or taking away from it...

Most Catholics 'admittedly' don't believe in the real presence...Ya gotta wonder how many 'don't admit' they don't believe in the real presence in the wafer...Perhaps your priest doesn't even believe it...Guarantee he won't tell you if he doesn't...

28 posted on 12/12/2013 11:09:12 AM PST by Iscool
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To: UriÂ’el-2012
"The hubris to think that a created human by magic can
turn a Pesach Matzoh into the Creator of the universe.

Jesus Christ is a mere created man and a magician?

29 posted on 12/12/2013 11:18:43 AM PST by GonzoII (Ted Cruz/Susana Martinez 2016)
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To: faucetman
"But, Jesus IS the “Truth”.

Amen. Then we should hold His teachings:

"For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink."

30 posted on 12/12/2013 11:24:25 AM PST by GonzoII (Ted Cruz/Susana Martinez 2016)
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To: Salvation
Many could also mean the many believers.

The Jews did not see these figures. Do you have proof that the Pharisees or Sadducees saw the risen from their graves. I will wage that your answer is “No.”

So you make something up and we're required to prove it's not true???

I could say they rode thru town on large blu-jays...Don't beleive it??? Prove it with scripture...

31 posted on 12/12/2013 11:27:58 AM PST by Iscool
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To: GonzoII
2. Jesus did not say, “My flesh is of no avail.” He said, “The flesh is of no avail.” There is a big difference! He obviously would not have said my flesh avails nothing because he just spent a good portion of this same discourse telling us that his flesh would be “given for the life of the world” (John 6:51, cf. 50-58).

Obviously not the 'fleshy' life...Jesus' flesh didn't profit when they beat it up and killed it...Our fleshy life did not profit when Jesus was Crucified...It is all 100% spiritual life, not fleshy life...

32 posted on 12/12/2013 11:33:16 AM PST by Iscool
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To: GonzoII
U-2012>The hubris to think that a created human by magic can
turn a Pesach Matzoh into the Creator of the universe.

Jesus Christ is a mere created man and a magician?

Yah'shua HaMashiach is the Shechinah Glory of YHvH

The human magician is the Roman "priest" who
turns a Pesach Matzoh into the Creator of the universe.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
33 posted on 12/12/2013 11:50:37 AM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your teaching is my delight.)
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To: GonzoII

well said Gonzo - puts a floodlight on some non-Scriptural nonsense.


34 posted on 12/12/2013 11:54:10 AM PST by Hegewisch Dupa
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To: GonzoII; All

Augustine’s reading of John 6. “Why ready thou teeth and stomach? Believe, and you have eaten already.”

The body and blood of Christ consumed through faith without eating or drinking. Believe, saith Augustine, and thou hast eaten already.

Based on his reading of:

Joh 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
Joh 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

“They said therefore unto Him, What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” For He had said to them, “Labor not for the meat which perisheth, but for that which endureth unto eternal life.” “What shall we do?” they ask; by observing what, shall we be able to fulfill this precept? “Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom He has sent.” This is then to eat the meat, not that which perisheth, but that which endureth unto eternal life. To what purpose dost thou make ready teeth and stomach? Believe, and thou hast eaten already. (Augustine, Tractate 25)

This is the most natural reading of the text, unless the Papists are going to offer us the sacrament of water that gives eternal life, as Christ commanded must be drank in John 4:

Joh 4:13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
Joh 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
Joh 4:15 The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw.


35 posted on 12/12/2013 11:58:16 AM PST by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: UriÂ’el-2012
The human magician is the Roman "priest" who turns a Pesach Matzoh into the Creator of the universe.

The human magician is the Roman "priest" who CLAIMS TO
turns a Pesach Matzoh into the Creator of the universe.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
36 posted on 12/12/2013 12:03:55 PM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your teaching is my delight.)
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To: GonzoII

I didn’t say that Jesus said *MY* flesh is of no avail. I said that He said THE flesh is of no avail.

His BLOOD was shed for the remission of our sins, not His flesh. Without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sin.

Eating blood is strictly forbidden by the Law. The blood was NEVER for consumption, it was for atonement. Jesus could not break the Law and still be the perfect, sinless sacrifice for our sins.

One of the only commands reiterated in the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15 was the prohibition against eating blood.

Salvation is by faith. Not by eating Jesus.


37 posted on 12/12/2013 12:19:46 PM PST by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith....)
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To: Salvation

So the Catholic church takes it literally when it suits them and figuratively when it suits them.

Very poor exegesis.


38 posted on 12/12/2013 12:20:35 PM PST by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith....)
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To: armydoc

I agree 100% and you called it correct.

Funny how they demand PHYSICAL eating but insist on it giving SPIRITUAL life. There’s no consistency at all in their position.


39 posted on 12/12/2013 12:21:55 PM PST by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith....)
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To: Salvation
are you not familiar with the Gospel of the souls arising from their graves at the Crucifixion of Christ — visible only to the believers? These were the souls who had been waiting for Christ to be the first person into heaven.

Where in Scripture does it say that the dead appeared only to believers? And it did not happen AT the crucifixion, but after His death.

Reading into a passage is not good interpretation. Or is this another myth tradition the Catholic church teaches has been handed down for millennia?

40 posted on 12/12/2013 12:25:09 PM PST by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith....)
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To: metmom

Eternal life.


41 posted on 12/12/2013 2:10:50 PM PST by Not gonna take it anymore (If Obama were twice as smart as he is, he would be a wit)
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To: dartuser

Are you making up the supposition that the raised people appeared to all?

You do not know what I think — personal attack.


42 posted on 12/12/2013 3:14:21 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: metmom

And Protestants and other non-Catholics don’t do the same thing? LOL!


43 posted on 12/12/2013 3:17:29 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: metmom

When Jesus died on the cross and rose again on the third day he defeated death. Believe in Him and you will have eternal life. Catholic 101.


44 posted on 12/12/2013 6:56:54 PM PST by NKP_Vet
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To: dartuser
You're making this up as you go

Reading the mind of another Freeper is a form of "making it personal."

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.

45 posted on 12/12/2013 7:41:28 PM PST by Religion Moderator
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To: metmom
"I didn’t say that Jesus said *MY* flesh is of no avail. I said that He said THE flesh is of no avail."

It seemed to me that you were saying that Jesus was speaking symbolically when he said you had to eat his flesh. Or why did you say "the flesh is of no avail"?

When he said "the flesh" is of no avail He was saying that the carnal man cannot accept what He is saying, Rom 8:6-9 and 1 Cor 2:14-15 explains what the term "the flesh" means. If Jesus was only speaking symbolically why did the Jews say "how can this man give us his flesh to eat?" and why did Jesus not correct their "error"? and why did they walk away?`

"His BLOOD was shed for the remission of our sins, not His flesh. Without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sin."

His flesh which contains His blood was given for the life of the world, you cannot minimize that fact: Jn 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

Joh 6:52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

"Eating blood is strictly forbidden by the Law."

And circumcision is commanded by the Law, so do we have to keep that law? We are no longer under the Mosaic Law. Jesus knew the prohibition against drinking blood and yet still insisted that we would have to eat His flesh and drink His blood and He let the unbelievers go away.

"One of the only commands reiterated in the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15 was the prohibition against eating blood.

That was a temporary concession for the sake of the Jews which was later lifted.

I will let St Paul HIMSELF defend the words of Christ:

1Co 10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

46 posted on 12/13/2013 6:52:54 AM PST by GonzoII (Ted Cruz/Susana Martinez 2016)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
"Augustine’s reading of John 6."

An august Catholic Church Father not believing in the real Presence? I don't buy it:

Saint Augustine and the Eucharist

The Church Fathers and the Eucharist

47 posted on 12/13/2013 7:16:06 AM PST by GonzoII (Ted Cruz/Susana Martinez 2016)
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