Skip to comments.Are You Religious...or Are You Saved?
Posted on 12/12/2013 12:53:00 PM PST by Geocentrism
The Church or The Bible
by Fr. Arnold Damen, S.J. (1815 - 1890)
The following sermon is as relevant today as it was over 100 years ago when it was first preached by Father Arnold Damen, S.J. This message was and still is a challenge to the many who pride themselves as being "Bible-and-Bible-Only Christians."
One cannot have God for his Father, who will not have the Church for his Mother, and likewise, one cannot have the Word of God for his faith who will not have the Church for his teacher. It is the infallible teaching authority of the Church, as promised by Christ, which alone preserves God's Word from erroneous interpretation. This is the essence of Fr. Damen's sermon.
Every sincere Bible reader deserves to know the true relation God has established between His Church and Holy Scripture. Therefore, we invite all who love the Bible, to read Father Damen's exposition with an open mind, lest while reading the Scriptures "... the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction." [2 Peter 3:16]
Saved by the Blood of Christ, Bible-Believing Christian here.
With all due respect to the father’s sermon, I’ll take the salvation that Christ gave me when I believed the Gospel, the resultant change of heart He gave me, the forgiveness of my Sins, and the resultant Witness of the Holy Spirit (Romans 8) over relying on Church Membership as some sort of talisman protecting me from Hell.
One is experiential knowledge, the other is tradition.
This passage is found where...?
1 John 5:12
King James Version (KJV)
12 He that hath the Son hath life;
and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
FReepmail if you’d like to be on or off this Sola Scriptura / Bible Prophecy ping list
not in the Bible
the Bible defines church as anytime 2 or more come together in HIS name.
Where is this passage....?
New International Version (NIV)
20 For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.
New International Version (NIV)
20 For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them."
Yes, but where is the passage that defines this as the "church"? If one examines the NT Greek text, there is no such word as "church". Rather, gathering(s) or general assembly (ies) is the word. Someone morphed this into the buzz word "church"...
I am a Calvinist, in this continuing argument.
And we thought the Pharisees had all died out. ;)
Evidently, they are alive and well spread throughout the religious organizations...
MIDDLETOWN BIBLE CHURCH #1
THE GOSPEL OF JOHN STUDY
a basic paper on salvation.
PLEASE ANSWER THE FOLLOWING QUESTIONS BY LOOKING UP THE
BIBLE VERSES WHICH ARE GIVEN, ALL OF WHICH ARE FOUND IN
THE GOSPEL OF JOHN.
1. Why was the Gospel of John written?
2. WHO is Jesus Christ?
3. Let us consider some of the great “I AM” verses found in John’s Gospel. Again and again Jesus said “ I AM ...”
John 6:35....I AM____________________________________________________
John 8:12....I AM____________________________________________________
John 10:9....I AM____________________________________________________
John 10:11...I AM____________________________________________________
John 11:25...I AM____________________________________________________
John 14:6....I AM_____________________________________________________
John 8:58 ...” Before Abraham was, ___ _____.”
4. The problem is sin. Do men love the light and come to the light or would men rather stay in darkness (John 3:19-20)___________________________________________
How does God describe the ‘deeds’ of these people (John 3:19)?____________
According to the Lord Jesus, how many people really keep God’s holy law, (such as the Ten Commandments), perfectly (John 7:19)?__________________________________
How many people are without sin (John 8:7-10)?_______________________________
Who is a servant or slave of sin (John 8:34)?___________________________________
Who is the only one who can set a person free from sin (John 8:36)?_________________
5. God has done something very wonderful for sinful man! “ The Word was made (became) __________________ and dwelt among us” (John 1:14). God became a man and he was sent to the S____________________ (John 4:42) of the world. Did he come on a mission of judgment or on a mission of salvation (John 3:17)?_________________
God loved you so much that he did something very costly for you. What did he do?
(John 3:16 and see also John 19:18 and 19:30)________________________________
Christ died for our sins! He took our place! God’s wrath and punishment against sin fell upon him! He was the sinner’s substitute! Did Jesus really die on the cross (John 19:32- 35)?____________ Did he really come back from the dead (John chapters 20 and 21)?____ Did “Doubting Thomas” become “Convinced Thomas” (John 20:24-29)?______
Why was Thomas convinced (John 20:29)?____________________________________
Has God given to you enough information to BELIEVE the very thing Thomas was convinced of (John 20:29-31)?________________
6. Is there really such a place as heaven (John 14:1-3)?_________ What is the only way to get there (John 14:6)?___________________________________________________
Who is the only one who can give peace to the troubled heart (John 14:27)?___________
Who is the only one who can give joy to the downcast soul (John 15:11)?_____________
7. What is eternal life (John 17:3)?___________________________________________
What must a person do to have eternal life?
A person can either receive Jesus Christ by faith (John 1:12) or a person can reject the Savior by not receiving him (John 1:11). WHICH HAVE YOU DONE?
8. What will happen to those who DO NOT believe on Christ and who refuse to put their full trust in him?
TRUE OR FALSE:__________________ unbelievers are condemned already.
9. Read John 3:16 and put your own name in the blanks: “ FOR GOD SO LOVED ____________ THAT HE GAVE HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON FOR ______________ THAT IF ___________________________BELIEVES IN HIM, ________________________ WILL NOT PERISH, BUT ________________________
WILL HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE.”
10. How can you be a true disciple of Christ (John 8:31)?________________________
We here at Middletown Bible Church would want to do all we can to encourage you to go in God’s direction and have his highest and best for your life. Please check (X) by what you would want ( You may check more than one):
__________ Please correct this Bible study
__________ Please send me more Bible study sheets
__________ Please answer my questions which I have enclosed
__________ Please send me more information about salvation and eternal life.
__________ I would like to make an appointment to talk to the Pastor
Yeah, they’re everywhere. In school, they’re called Hall Monitors. There are LOTS of Hall Monitors here, too...:)
What a great sermon. Thanks for the link. I’m reading his other sermons as well.
Do you believe the scripture in this post to be true?
Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you.
Oh, I agree with you on the “church” stuff mentioned herein. I want to see that as well.
The interesting thing about the OP (and others like it) is that the presuppositions contained therein don’t rest upon information delivered by the Text. Rather, the organizations (most principally the RCC) bring their assumptions/conclusions/determinations to bear UPON the Text. The organizations believe their pre-eminence grants them the right to inflict upon the Text anything they want it to say to support the right of their organization to inflict upon the Text anything that they want it to say to support the right of their organization...well, you get the idea. This circular, self-aggrandizing, self-appointing, self-proving, eclipsing of the Text by organizations is what leads them away from the truths of the Text and into their own self-made religions. Tragic, but according to the Text...even this is being managed by God.
If you have the Son you have life,
If you do not have the Son, you do not have life.
It is plain and simple.
Oh, and welcome to FR
Since Dec 12, 2013
Remain in me.
Sola Scriptura? Doctrine of men not found in Bible.
Put simply its Greek kuriakê -> Old English cirice -> Middle English chirche -> Modern English church.
The root of the word kuriakê which is kuriakos meaning of the Lord or special to the Lord is used only twice in scripture, once in Revelation 1:10 where it says John was in the Spirit on the Lords day and also in 1 Corinthians 11:20 where it refers to the Lords supper.
There is no word in scripture that means church. There is however a Greek phrase not used in scripture which is kuriakê oikia, which means Lords house. Kuriakê (belonging to the Lord) oikia (house). That phrase is NEVER used in scripture. There is NO kuriakê oikia or Lords house in scripture.
The phrase kuriakê oikia is however in use during the reign of Emperor Constantine. It refers to the house of the lord Mithras. Sol Mithras Deus Invictus (Mithras the unconquered sun god) whose temple was referred to as kuriakê oikia or the lords house.
Its interesting to note that Constantine throughout his life served the sun god Mithras and one of his last acts was to uphold the rights of the priests of Mithras. It is also interesting to note that is during the reign of Emporer Constantine that Christianity and Mithraism became very intermixed and who many regard as the beginning of Catholicism.
THAT is very interesting. I enjoy reading the Greek you post. I have something I am studying and want your opinion on. Col. 1:25-27, but v. 25 in particular. What is the Greek for “fulfill”? Does it mean to make full, or complete the Word of God? And do you see where I’m going here?
Colossians 1:25 word for word from the Greek reads this way.
of which became I a minister according to the administration of God having been given me toward you to complete the word of God."
The word used that has been interpreted complete in that is plērōsai.
Plērōsai - to make full, to complete
The root is plérés - full, abounding in, complete, completely occupied with
IMHO the word fulfill is rather sloppy unless one understands that to mean complete or make full.
I have found that one needs to be extra cautious when checking the Greek lexicons. As I showed in my last post the word church is given in the lexicons as a translation of Ekklesia. That cannot have been the meaning when the apostles wrote those words. The word for a place of assembly in the Greek is Agon and is never used of a place where Christians met. So the word church has no base in scripture.
So it is with the word fulfill in Colossians 1:25.
pm to follow
See my post 22 but also keep in mind that the word printed in the English Bible church was never the word intent in the Greek. The word in the Greek is ekklesias which means assembly of those called out. So in truth it is anywhere 2 or 3 or more Christians are gathered.
Ezek 3:1 Moreover he said unto me, Son of man, eat that thou findest; eat this scroll, and go speak unto the house of Israel. 2 So I opened my mouth, and he caused me to eat that scroll. 3 And he said unto me, Son of man, cause thy belly to eat, and fill thy bowels with this roll that I give thee. Then did I eat it; and it was in my mouth as honey for sweetness.
Jer 15:16 Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts.
Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
Ephesians 2:4-10 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christby grace you have been saved and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
The church is not our mother.
Galatians 4:26 But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.
The Holy Spirit teaches us everything we need to know.
John 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.
1 John 2:20-27 But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all have knowledge. 21 I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and because no lie is of the truth. 22 Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. 23 No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also. 24 Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you too will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that he made to useternal life.
26 I write these things to you about those who are trying to deceive you. 27 But the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no liejust as it has taught you, abide in him.
So where is the Scripture that states that the *Church* is our *Mother*?
John 1:10-13 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 3:14-18 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?
Galatians 2:15-21 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor. For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.
Galatians 3:1-29 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vainif indeed it was in vain? Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith just as Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness?
Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, In you shall all the nations be blessed. So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them. Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for The righteous shall live by faith. But the law is not of faith, rather The one who does them shall live by them. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for usfor it is written, Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.
To give a human example, brothers: even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, And to offsprings, referring to many, but referring to one, And to your offspring, who is Christ. This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.
Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.
Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.
Ephesians 2:1-10And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christby grace you have been saved and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
2 Corinthians 5:17-21 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
Genesis 9:4 But you shall not eat flesh with its life , that is, its blood.
Leviticus 3:17 It shall be a statute forever throughout your generations, in all your dwelling places, that you eat neither fat nor blood.
Leviticus 7:26-27 Moreover, you shall eat no blood whatever, whether of fowl or of animal, in any of your dwelling places. Whoever eats any blood, that person shall be cut off from his people.
Leviticus 17:10-14 If any one of the house of Israel or of the strangers who sojourn among them eats any blood, I will set my face against that person who eats blood and will cut him off from among his people. For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it for you on the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that makes atonement by the life. Therefore I have said to the people of Israel, No person among you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger who sojourns among you eat blood.
Any one also of the people of Israel, or of the strangers who sojourn among them, who takes in hunting any beast or bird that may be eaten shall pour out its blood and cover it with earth. For the life of every creature is its blood: its blood is its life. Therefore I have said to the people of Israel, You shall not eat the blood of any creature, for the life of every creature is its blood. Whoever eats it shall be cut off.
Leviticus 19:26 You shall not eat any flesh with the blood in it. You shall not interpret omens or tell fortunes.
Deuteronomy 12:16 Only you shall not eat the blood ; you shall pour it out on the earth like water.
Deuteronomy 12:23 Only be sure that you do not eat the blood, for the blood is the life , and you shall not eat the life with the flesh.
Deuteronomy 15:23 Only you shall not eat its blood; you shall pour it out on the ground like water.
Acts 15:12-29 And all the assembly fell silent, and they listened to Barnabas and Paul as they related what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles. After they finished speaking, James replied, Brothers, listen to me. Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take from them a people for his name. And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written,
After this I will return, and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen; I will rebuild its ruins, and I will restore it, that the remnant of mankind may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who are called by my name, says the Lord, who makes these things known from of old.
Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood. For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues.
Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They sent Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brothers, with the following letter:
The brothers, both the apostles and the elders, to the brothers who are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia, greetings. Since we have heard that some persons have gone out from us and troubled you with words, unsettling your minds, although we gave them no instructions, it has seemed good to us, having come to one accord, to choose men and send them to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will tell you the same things by word of mouth. For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.
John 6:54 Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you.
I believe every word of it...But do I believe in your Eucharist??? No...
Jesus was speaking spiritually, not physically...The same can be seen in this verse...
Joh 4:13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
This is physical water...And now Jesus compares it to spiritual water...
Joh 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
That 2nd water you don't put in your mouth and literally drink it...
The implication is that you drink THAT water but it is spiritual water that gets consumed by your spirit, not your mouth...And it is not wet...
"And He took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me."
1 Corinthians 11:23-26
"For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you: that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which He was betrayed took bread; and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me. In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.
For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lords death till He comes."
We remember Christ's sacrifice (death) through communion. It's about His sacrifice (death) and our new life because He paid the ultimate price for our sins. Hebrews 10:)
I am waiting for that as well; imho, the Bible says nothing of the sort.
You’ll be waiting a long time.
Or you’ll get pummeled with quotes from the *church fathers*.
For God so loved the world, He sent a book.
You should have been regaled with my former roommate’s tales of preserved dead bodies, people floating in air and apparitions.
All the time.
Yes, I am familiar with the origin of the manufactured word "kirk" (some Scottish influence). Your comments expand and clarify its tangential biblical beginnings.
But, clearly, it is also apparent that the Romanists turned this into a "term" in order to brand the organizational structure. It thus permitted an entity with polity and hierarchy.
The Body of Christ, the true assembly of believers, across all time and all geographical locations is the only real "organization" managed and gathered by God Himself. The rest are just man-made attempts to lord it over each other. Even Paul's references to "assemblies" meeting in homes, along rivers, in marketplaces, were just places to listen to teaching, pray, fellowship, and break bread. Yes, there were elder men, mature in the faith enough to protect the gatherings from heresies (which apparently did not work inside the organizations).
How did it morph into the monster we now see? Human ego...but even this is being managed by God to its destruction.
Now this, the εκκλεσιασ, this is the description of those gathered as the Body of Christ. You have set out the real "assembling" found in the text. But, it was not enough for Rome...they needed a "company", a "corporation", a monstrosity to call their own...and they now have it. Unfortunately, many non-Romanists followed suit. But, the organizations belong to them, not God.
I believe it. I was born and raised Catholic.
Superstitious lot, they are.