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The EITHER/OR of "It's EITHER Calvinism OR Arminianism" has proven useless
12/12/2013 | Laissez-Faire Capitalist

Posted on 12/12/2013 2:20:13 PM PST by Laissez-faire capitalist

Did God provide for the salvation of sinners that he chose to be saved, or did God provide a way of salvation and then it is up to sinners to choose it?

Wrong question that has been asked...

The question that SHOULD be asked:

Did God know which choice we would make (as to salvation) when He created this universe and bring into existence that choice to be saved, or did He bring into existence His choice for whom He would save when He brought this universe into existence?

Is the ultimate, final answer to this either/or, neither/nor, or both/and?

Is it EITHER Calvinism OR Arminianism, or is the answer neither Calvinism nor Arminianism, or both/and - a fusion of the two?

Jesus was asked:

1.) Do we pay taxes to either God or Caeser?

Jesus said the answer was both/and, not either/or. We pay taxes to BOTH God AND man.

2.) Which man would a woman be married to in the resurrrection - the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th or 7th. Yet another either/or question. Jesus answered in NEITHER/NOR fashion - She would be married to NEITHER the 1st, NOR the 2nd through 7th.

3.) Jesus asked the correct either/or question about John the Baptist, as the previous two questions asked of Him were incorrect either/or constructs. Jesus essentially said that John the Baptist either got his authority from EITHER God OR man.

Get wisdom people. It is lacking at FR.

Do I have to spell it out to you?

The final answer to all of this is a fusion of BOTH Calvinism AND Arminianism:

God sovereignly chose which universe He would create out of an infinite number of possible choices, but provided a way of salvation which we (through the free will given to us) either chose to accept or reject in this universe that He created.

And thus God's sovereignty is not undone, but neither is man's free will. There is a balance between the two. BOTH Calvinism AND Arminianism - fused together...


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian; Mainline Protestant; Theology
KEYWORDS: arminianism; arminius; calvin; calvinism; christianity; harmenszoon; protestantism; theology

1 posted on 12/12/2013 2:20:13 PM PST by Laissez-faire capitalist
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist; All

As I said before in the Book of Job thread: the world is not the symmetrical one that we wish it to be. It is asymmetrical. The dummy dualists of Dualism of the world should realize this by now, as should BOTH Calvinists AND Arminians.

Sometimes the answer is either/or, sometimes it is neither/nor, and sometimes it is both/and.


2 posted on 12/12/2013 2:23:11 PM PST by Laissez-faire capitalist
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

Pauline theology Already and Not Yet.
Calvinism - perseverance of the saints - Grace provided for the elect, frozen chosen
Arminianism - freedom of the will - prevenient grace (anticipatory better known as expectant grace) God is expected to give grace in spite of sin


3 posted on 12/12/2013 2:43:23 PM PST by hondact200 (Candor dat viribos alas (sincerity gives wings to strength) and Nil desperandum (never despair))
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist
And thus God's sovereignty is not undone, but neither is man's free will.

Calvinism does not undo either God's sovereignty OR man's free will. That is the classic strawman argument. Why don't you look at what Reformed view actually is? For instance, please look at Of Free Will.

4 posted on 12/12/2013 2:43:30 PM PST by kosciusko51 (Enough of "Who is John Galt?" Who is Patrick Henry?)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

Good thing you resolved that issue.

Some of my best friends are Armenian (from GLENDALE!)


5 posted on 12/12/2013 2:46:40 PM PST by freedumb2003 (Fight Tapinophobia in all its forms! Do not submit to arduus privilege.)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist
I think what you're hinting at is the middle knowledge of...

Molinism

Here's a more thorough philosophical discussion of the various ways to deal with the seeming contradictions between Free Will and Predestination.

Foreknowledge and Free Will

6 posted on 12/12/2013 2:47:32 PM PST by who_would_fardels_bear
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To: freedumb2003
"Some of my best friends are Armenian (from GLENDALE!)"

I believe that Glendale is the city with the largest population of Armenian's outside of Armenia. I don't know if it was predestined to be that way, but that's what happened.

7 posted on 12/12/2013 2:49:59 PM PST by who_would_fardels_bear
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To: who_would_fardels_bear

>>I believe that Glendale is the city with the largest population of Armenian’s outside of Armenia. I don’t know if it was predestined to be that way, but that’s what happened.<<

Probably true. When I worked in L.A. all my Armenian friends lived there. There us also a slice of Hollywood heavily Armenia. Great food!

Now, I don’t know where my Calvin friends lived. But Hobbs lived in the bed...


8 posted on 12/12/2013 2:54:25 PM PST by freedumb2003 (Fight Tapinophobia in all its forms! Do not submit to arduus privilege.)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

Salvation is granted at the end of Life. concept in Calvinism.
Arminianism has a concept of works merit favor that freedom of will otherwise

Are you trying to advocate the concept of orthodoxy of knowledge, orthokardia of heart and orthopraxis of service to ones fellow man are the balance between Calvinism and Arminianism?

Jean Calvin former french catholic theologian and lawyer absolute predestination
Jacob Arminius dutch theologian
Martin Luther had theological concepts too.

John Wesley strived to blend Calvin and Arminius. he had contact with the Moravians.


9 posted on 12/12/2013 2:55:40 PM PST by hondact200 (Candor dat viribos alas (sincerity gives wings to strength) and Nil desperandum (never despair))
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist
For the best discussion ever on Free Will, I direct you to: Luther and Erasmus: The Controversy Concerning the Bondage of the Will

Here at our own FR...

10 posted on 12/12/2013 2:56:49 PM PST by freedumb2003 (Fight Tapinophobia in all its forms! Do not submit to arduus privilege.)
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To: kosciusko51
Thanks for the link. Calvinists might be satisfied with calling that free will, but very few others would.

Under the definition on that page the vast majority of humanity will never have lived with free will. Only those who are elected will gain free will, and only when the saving grace of God is bestowed upon them. At that point, being imperfect, they can only will imperfectly and will only have complete free will when they are in Heaven.

The general consensus is that we all have free will at all times, but due to our imperfections mostly make the wrong choices. Our wills are imperfect not just from sin, but from bad habits, physical limitations, constraints placed on us by others, etc.

11 posted on 12/12/2013 2:59:18 PM PST by who_would_fardels_bear
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

I consider myself a Bapticosterian.


12 posted on 12/12/2013 3:05:47 PM PST by John 3_19-21 (Don't like Gramnesty? Support Lee Bright www.brightforsenate.com/)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist
Heretical then and heretical now.

ARMINIANISM

 

Doctrine held by certain Calvinists in the Netherlands in the seventeenth century. Originally taught by the Dutch Reformed theologian Jacobus Arminius (1560-1609). His followers were called Remonstrants. They opposed Calvin's teaching that grace benefits only the elect, that Christ died for the elect only, and, in general, his doctrine of selective salvation and absolute predestination, independent of human merit. Condemned by the Reformed Synod of Dort (1618-19), it paved the way for permanently dividing the followers of Calvin (1509-64) and the churches derived from the theory of predestination.

All items in this dictionary are from Fr. John Hardon's Modern Catholic Dictionary, © Eternal Life. Used with permission.


13 posted on 12/12/2013 3:11:02 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: who_would_fardels_bear
No, under the Westminster confession of Faith's definition, man can do what he wants, but "has wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation" and is unable to save himself. Unregenerate man's nature is sinful and contrary to God, and he will not follow after God.

Only the regenerate man will want to follow after God. Regeneration frees man from the bondage of sin and changes the desires of his heart.

14 posted on 12/12/2013 3:15:49 PM PST by kosciusko51 (Enough of "Who is John Galt?" Who is Patrick Henry?)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

“God sovereignly chose which universe He would create out of an infinite number of possible choices”

At least we are living in this version. We have no way of knowing whether other versions of the universe exist apart from ours (what physicists call the multiverse; Einstein’s eternal now). In this universe that we live in, you are correct


15 posted on 12/12/2013 3:28:22 PM PST by Nifster
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To: freedumb2003
It might be the best discussion of Free Will on FR, but not the best discussion ever.

God created all things including philosophy and theology. The initial essay claims that Luther was uninterested in abstract theological concepts, i.e. he was uninterested in the higher realms of knowledge created by God and available to Luther if he were willing to study and understand them.

So Luther goes Bible quote shopping and comes up with his men are robots built by God theory.

I really wonder why any dyed-in-the-wool Calvinist would hang out at FR. After all Calvinism is not a conservative religious belief, but a radical one. A very small percentage of the people that have ever lived will be among the elect that enter in Heaven. The rest are doomed to destruction and will only wreak havoc to the elect while they live out their lives.

Why should Calvinists waste any time voting or worrying about which politicians were moving up or down? Why should they care about whether taxes are too high or too low, whether businesses are over or under regulated? It is what it is.

Why would they even want to get involved in foreign policy when they would have to deal with billions of people who haven't even heard about Jesus, let alone have any desire to follow him?

Not all Christians are conservative. Not all Christians should try to be conservative. Some should be radical and among those should be the Calvinists. They should be trying to create isolated communities of solid believers to isolate themselves from riff raff like me.

They should move to northern Idaho. Send out occasional messages to the rest of the world so the elect that haven't already joined them will know where to find them.

Calvinists should stop squandering their lives dealing with mediocre conservatives and form a radical vanguard of true believers!

16 posted on 12/12/2013 3:35:02 PM PST by who_would_fardels_bear
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To: who_would_fardels_bear
A bit of a Calvinist strawman to your argument, but let us take one point where we agree:

"A very small percentage of the people that have ever lived will be among the elect that enter in Heaven. The rest are doomed to destruction and will only wreak havoc to the elect while they live out their lives."

Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

17 posted on 12/12/2013 3:40:09 PM PST by kosciusko51 (Enough of "Who is John Galt?" Who is Patrick Henry?)
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To: kosciusko51

Revelation 5:9
And they *sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

Revelation 7:8-10

9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; 10 and they cry out with a loud voice, saying,

“Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.”


18 posted on 12/12/2013 4:11:50 PM PST by huldah1776
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To: huldah1776

I think Jesus told the Parable of the Seeds just for this occasion! :)


19 posted on 12/12/2013 4:14:32 PM PST by huldah1776
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To: huldah1776

Let man be man and God be God.


20 posted on 12/12/2013 4:38:23 PM PST by Louis Foxwell (This is a wake up call. Join the Sultan Knish ping list.)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

A college try, but I presume you really have not read Calvinist theology thoroughly. But more importantly is you claim God choose from an infinite number of possible universes. Is this true? Or, did God create the only possible world? Modern philosophers debated this question at length. You may want to research this question and then reconsider you propositions.


21 posted on 12/12/2013 4:46:05 PM PST by Thus Spake Zarathustra
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist
Did God provide for the salvation of sinners that he chose to be saved, or did God provide a way of salvation and then it is up to sinners to choose it? Wrong question that has been asked...

The question that SHOULD be asked: Did God know which choice we would make (as to salvation) when He created this universe and bring into existence that choice to be saved, or did He bring into existence His choice for whom He would save when He brought this universe into existence?

What level of sobriety were you at when you wrote this?

22 posted on 12/12/2013 5:14:20 PM PST by Alex Murphy ("the defacto Leader of the FR Calvinist Protestant Brigades")
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist
God provide a way of salvation and then it is up to sinners to choose it?

This is the perfect question. It is no more complicated than that. God provided the plan of salvation and all we have to do is follow it.


23 posted on 12/12/2013 5:17:55 PM PST by StormPrepper
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To: who_would_fardels_bear

>>Calvinists should stop squandering their lives dealing with mediocre conservatives and form a radical vanguard of true believers!<<

Maybe it already happened...;)


24 posted on 12/12/2013 5:55:47 PM PST by freedumb2003 (Fight Tapinophobia in all its forms! Do not submit to arduus privilege.)
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To: Alex Murphy

>>
What level of sobriety were you at when you wrote this?<<

OK, that there is just funny no matter what you think theologically...


25 posted on 12/12/2013 5:58:33 PM PST by freedumb2003 (Fight Tapinophobia in all its forms! Do not submit to arduus privilege.)
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