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How Can Mary Hear Thousands Simultaneously?
Tim Staples' Blog ^ | October 31, 2013 | Tim Staples

Posted on 12/15/2013 2:24:52 AM PST by GonzoII

How Can Mary Hear Thousands Simultaneously?


In his 1999 book, Evangelical Answers – A Critique of Current Roman Catholic Apologists, Eric Svendsen claims the Catholic Church makes Mary into not just a god, but the God:

Suppose someone in the United States were to pray to Mary at a certain time during the day. Suppose further that, at exactly that same moment, someone in Europe begins also to pray to Mary… suppose at that same moment hundreds of thousands of devoted Catholics all over the world begin praying the rosary… In order for Mary to hear all those prayers at once she would have to be omniscient (“all-knowing”)—an attribute that is the property of God alone.

The simplest Catholic response would be to first reference Rev. 5:8:

And when [Christ, the lamb] had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints…

Catholics simply believe this text of Scripture. These twenty-four elders are human beings in heaven and they are depicted as “each one [having] vials of incense, which are the prayers of the saints” (emphasis added). Each one of them was responding to multiple prayers from multiple people. What does that mean? It means these saints in heaven somehow have the power to do what Eric Svendsen claims to be “the property of God alone.” Obviously, it is not. We would do well to recall the words of Sacred Scripture at this juncture: “With God all things are possible” (cf. Luke 1:37). If we have faith, we will have no problem with believing God’s word over our own feeble and fallible intellects.

Moreover, we also see this same ministry being performed by the angels in Revelation 8:3-4:

And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God. Then the angel took the censer and filled it with fire from the altar and threw it on the earth; and there were peals of thunder, loud noises, flashes of lightning, and an earthquake.

Not only are the saints and angels depicted as hearing the prayers of multiple people at the same time, but these prayers are then taken to God and they affect change on the earth as symbolized by the “peals of thunder, loud noises, etc.” I once had a Protestant pastor I was debating say to me when I presented this text to him, “There is no evidence that these saints and angels hear and comprehend those prayers. They just take them to God.” Obviously, the language of “being given incense” representing the prayers of the saints is metaphorical. One cannot “grab a hold of prayers” without knowing what they are any more than one can grab a handful of incense. In order for these pure spirits in heaven to “take prayers” to God, they must be intellectually comprehended and then communicated.

And when you think about it, why wouldn’t they? If Jesus is in heaven at the right hand of God and “he always lives to make intercession for [us]” as Hebrews 7:25 says, would not the angels and saints want to do what Jesus does? I John 3:1-2 says if or when we get to heaven, “We will be like him, for we shall see him as he is.” Why would the saints in heaven see Jesus interceding for us on earth and just sit around and watch him without joining in on the prayer? They would want to do what Jesus does and Jesus would want them to do what he does as well. That’s what “following Jesus” is all about!

LET’S GET METAPHYSICAL

But we still haven’t answered Svendsen’s main objection. We need to demonstrate the reasonableness of Rev. 5:8. If infinite power is required for the saints and angels in heaven to hear multiple prayers simultaneously, it is true, only God would be up to the task. Even more, God could not communicate this power outside of the godhead because that would be tantamount to creating another infinite God, which is absurd. God alone is the one, true and infinite God by nature and there can be no other (cf. Is. 45:22).

So, would it require infinite power to hear the prayers of, let’s say, one billion people at the same time? The answer is no. One billion is a finite number. So it would not require infinite power. If we take a look at this universe of ours and consider that we are beings on one planet in one solar system amid billions of stars in one galaxy among billions of galaxies, we are a drop in the ocean next to the vastness of space. All the power a saint, like Mary, would need would be enough to hear just these little creatures on this one little blue dot called “earth.” We are not even in the ballpark of “infinite power” here.

I have to give Eric Svendsen credit because in response to my colleague, Patrick Madrid, who made this very same argument that I just made, Eric Svendsen makes a very insightful critique:

But Madrid’s suggestion creates so many consequent theological difficulties that it is difficult to believe he could be satisfied with it. One may as well argue that omniscience is not needed even by God himself since all things that can be known—no matter how many—are nevertheless limited to a finite number.

In spite of Madrid’s assertions to the contrary, one must indeed be omniscient or omnipresent (or both) before he can hear more than one prayer at a time.

When Svendsen says “omniscience is not needed even by God himself,” he betrays a lack of understanding of the Catholic and biblical position on this matter. Apart from a gift of grace, it would be impossible for created, human nature to be able to hear the prayers of millions at once and to be able to respond to them all. In fact, I argue it would be beyond unaided angelic power as well. God alone can do these things by nature and absolutely.

St. Thomas Aquinas answers this question succinctly when he says the ability to perform actions that transcend nature comes from a “created light of glory received into [the] created intellect.” It would require infinite power to “create the light” or the grace given to empower men and angels to act beyond their given natures. Only God can do that. But it does not require infinite power to passively receive that light. As long as what is received is not infinite by nature or does not require infinite power to comprehend or to be able to act upon, it would not be beyond men or angel’s ability to receive. Therefore, we can conclude this “created light” given by God to empower men and angels to be able hear millions of prayers and respond to them simultaneously is reasonable as well as biblical.

If you want much more information on this topic, check out my CD set called “Friends in High Places” available here.



TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Prayer; Theology
KEYWORDS: communionofsaints; mary; ourlady; prayer; timstaples; virginmary
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Luk 1:37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.

Gen 18:14 Is any thing too hard for the LORD?

Num 11:23 And the LORD said unto Moses, Is the LORD's hand
waxed short? thou shalt see now whether my word shall come to pass
unto thee or not.

Jer 32:27 Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?

Jer 32:17 Ah Lord GOD! behold, thou hast made the heaven and
the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, and there is
nothing too hard for thee.

Mat 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is
impossible; but with God all things are possible.

1 posted on 12/15/2013 2:24:52 AM PST by GonzoII
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To: GonzoII

Mary lives in eternity. Her relationship to time is therefore not like ours. The objection that she cannot do this and that “simultaneously” is therefore meaningless.


2 posted on 12/15/2013 2:31:13 AM PST by Arthur McGowan
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To: Arthur McGowan
"Her relationship to time is therefore not like ours."

Thank you Father Mac.

3 posted on 12/15/2013 3:14:20 AM PST by GonzoII (Ted Cruz/Susana Martinez 2016)
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To: GonzoII

This sort of question seems trivial compared to more serious questions of faith.


4 posted on 12/15/2013 3:37:54 AM PST by oblomov
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To: GonzoII

yes. Time is part of creation.

I do hear peculiar comments from many that the saints in Heaven and God Himself are moving through time, just as we are. Silly.

And if one tried to define eternity, it is not, “an infinite amount of time.” It is closer to “an absence of time.”


5 posted on 12/15/2013 3:53:05 AM PST by campaignPete R-CT (SOV? Strength of Victory. h2h? head-to-head)
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To: GonzoII
In order for Mary to hear all those prayers at once she would have to be omniscient (“all-knowing”)—an attribute that is the property of God alone.

Even if we accept that the saints and angels are in time in the same manner as we are, it does not follow that Mary would have to be omniscient; knowing a lot isn't the same as knowing everything. Even though there are MANY prayers offered, there are not an infinite number.
6 posted on 12/15/2013 4:21:47 AM PST by Dr. Sivana (There's no salvation in politics.)
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To: campaignPete R-CT
"And if one tried to define eternity, it is not, “an infinite amount of time.” It is closer to “an absence of time.”

That's a good way to put it....still a mystery for us this side of the Jordan.

7 posted on 12/15/2013 4:31:50 AM PST by GonzoII (Ted Cruz/Susana Martinez 2016)
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To: oblomov
This sort of question seems trivial compared to more serious questions of faith.

And yet it divides Christians from one another. That makes it far from trivial. All denominations agree on at least 95% of doctrine so we tend to argue over the fringes. Whatever divides God's House is not a minor issue.

8 posted on 12/15/2013 4:45:19 AM PST by pgyanke (Republicans get in trouble when not living up to their principles. Democrats... when they do.)
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To: GonzoII

Sometimes you give the Sunnis and Shiites a run for their money.


9 posted on 12/15/2013 5:05:52 AM PST by Vermont Lt (If you want to keep your dignity, you can keep it. Period........ Just kidding, you can't keep it.)
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To: Arthur McGowan

If the NSA can do it, why not Mary?


10 posted on 12/15/2013 5:15:09 AM PST by ThePatriotsFlag (...and to the Republic for which it stood.)
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To: GonzoII

The power of God dims our human perceptions. Praise God that He knows what is happening all over the world.


11 posted on 12/15/2013 5:33:30 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

We ask Mary to pray for us. We do not pray TO Mary to do anything requiring godlike powers. If the saints can hear us pray - why not pray to the one closest to Christ?


12 posted on 12/15/2013 6:07:23 AM PST by epluribus_2 (he had the best mom - ever.)
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To: epluribus_2
We ask Mary to pray for us. We do not pray TO Mary to do anything requiring godlike powers. If the saints can hear us pray - why not pray to the one closest to Christ?

Symantics. You are still praying TO Mary. She has nothing to do with you any longer. Christ is the one to whom we pray. There is NO mediator between man and God except Christ Jesus (1 Tim 2:5). Anything else is heresy.

13 posted on 12/15/2013 7:06:06 AM PST by rjsimmon (1-20-2013 The Tree of Liberty Thirsts)
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To: ThePatriotsFlag
"If the NSA can do it, why not Mary?"

Lol.

14 posted on 12/15/2013 7:06:10 AM PST by GonzoII (Ted Cruz/Susana Martinez 2016)
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To: GonzoII

“And when [Christ, the lamb] had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints…”

The Elders and the 4living creatures HOLD THE PRAYERS BEFORE CHRIST.

Nowhere are the prayers DIRECTED to the elders or creatures.
Nowhere is it written that they HEARD the prayers.

Roman eisogesis fail.


15 posted on 12/15/2013 7:49:50 AM PST by aMorePerfectUnion (I grew up in America. I now live in the United States..)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
"And when [Christ, the lamb] had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints…”"

"The Elders and the 4living creatures HOLD THE PRAYERS
BEFORE CHRIST.

Nowhere are the prayers DIRECTED to the elders or creatures. Nowhere is it written that they HEARD the prayers.

Roman eisogesis fail."

----------

The rising smoke of incense is a visible sign of prayers
ascending to God, so they are obviously actual prayers,
and not their own, but rather those of the Saints the knowledge
of which they have come to know:

Ps 141:2 Let my prayer be directed as incense in thy sight; the lifting up of my hands, as evening sacrifice.

16 posted on 12/15/2013 9:08:12 AM PST by GonzoII (Ted Cruz/Susana Martinez 2016)
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To: GonzoII

Repeat Roman Eisogesis Fail

“—————

The rising smoke of incense is a visible sign of prayers
ascending to God, so they are obviously actual prayers,
and not their own, but rather those of the Saints the knowledge
of which they have come to know:”

Nothing says the elders KNOW anything about what they hold.
Further, the prayers are from those under the alter who have been martyred in during the end times judgements.


17 posted on 12/15/2013 9:15:02 AM PST by aMorePerfectUnion (I grew up in America. I now live in the United States..)
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To: GonzoII

She can’t.

She’s not God.


18 posted on 12/15/2013 9:24:54 AM PST by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith....)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
"Nothing says the elders KNOW anything about what they hold."

When one offers prayer he obviously knows what he is saying.

19 posted on 12/15/2013 9:27:57 AM PST by GonzoII (Ted Cruz/Susana Martinez 2016)
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To: rjsimmon
Luke 11:1-13 Now Jesus was praying in a certain place, and when he finished, one of his disciples said to him, “Lord, teach us to pray, as John taught his disciples.” And he said to them, “When you pray, say:

Father, hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come. Give us each day our daily bread, and forgive us our sins, for we ourselves forgive everyone who is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation.”

And he said to them, “Which of you who has a friend will go to him at midnight and say to him, ‘Friend, lend me three loaves, for a friend of mine has arrived on a journey, and I have nothing to set before him’; and he will answer from within, ‘Do not bother me; the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed. I cannot get up and give you anything’?

I tell you, though he will not get up and give him anything because he is his friend, yet because of his impudence he will rise and give him whatever he needs. And I tell you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened. What father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will instead of a fish give him a serpent; or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”

Hebrews 4:14-16 Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

Jesus tells us clearly that God the Father Himself will hear and answer our prayers Himself.

The only reason people could have for praying to someone else is because they don't believe that God says what He means, or that He doesn't care enough to be bothered, or that He just won't answer and they think that they can get from someone else what God Himself won't give them.

20 posted on 12/15/2013 9:38:04 AM PST by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith....)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
"Further, the prayers are from those under the alter who
have been martyred in during the end times judgements."

I see no connection with the Martyrs under the altar in
Rev 6:9 with the prayers of the Saints being offered in Rev 5:8.

21 posted on 12/15/2013 9:51:10 AM PST by GonzoII (Ted Cruz/Susana Martinez 2016)
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To: epluribus_2
We ask Mary to pray for us. We do not pray TO Mary to do anything requiring godlike powers.

That's not true. These prayers TO Mary do the very thing you claim Catholics don't do. And there are plenty more examples that can be found on the internet with a simple google search of *Prayers to Mary*.

Prayer of Pope Pius XII - In Honor of the Immaculate Conception

http://catholicism.about.com/od/tothevirginmary/qt/Honor_Immacula.htm

Enraptured by the splendor of your heavenly beauty, and impelled by the anxieties of the world, we cast ourselves into your arms, O Immaculate Mother of Jesus and our Mother, Mary, confident of finding in your most loving heart appeasement of our ardent desires, and a safe harbor from the tempests which beset us on every side.

Though degraded by our faults and overwhelmed by infinite misery, we admire and praise the peerless richness of sublime gifts with which God has filled you, above every other mere creature, from the first moment of your conception until the day on which, after your assumption into heaven, He crowned you Queen of the Universe.

O crystal fountain of faith, bathe our minds with the eternal truths! O fragrant Lily of all holiness, captivate our hearts with your heavenly perfume! O Conqueress of evil and death, inspire in us a deep horror of sin, which makes the soul detestable to God and a slave of hell!

O well-beloved of God, hear the ardent cry which rises up from every heart. Bend tenderly over our aching wounds. Convert the wicked, dry the tears of the afflicted and oppressed, comfort the poor and humble, quench hatreds, sweeten harshness, safeguard the flower of purity in youth, protect the holy Church, make all men feel the attraction of Christian goodness.

In your name, resounding harmoniously in heaven, may they recognize that they are brothers, and that the nations are members of one family, upon which may there shine forth the sun of a universal and sincere peace.

Receive, O most sweet Mother, our humble supplications, and above all obtain for us that, one day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne that hymn which today is sung on earth around your altars: You are all-beautiful, O Mary! You are the glory, you are the joy, you are the honor of our people! Amen.

http://www.marypages.com/PrayerstoMary.htm

The Memorare

Remember, O most gracious Virgin Mary, that never was it known that anyone who fled to your protection, implored your help or sought your intercession, was left unaided. Inspired by this confidence, I fly unto you, O Virgin of virgins, my Mother. To you I come, before you I stand, sinful and sorrowful. O Mother of the Word incarnate, despise not my petitions, but, in your mercy, hear and answer me. Amen.

Mary, Help of Those in Need

Holy Mary, help those in need, give strength to the weak, comfort the sorrowful, pray for God's people, assist the clergy, intercede for religious. Mary all who seek your help experience your unfailing protection. Amen.

This is idolatry at its finest. Praying to someone beside God, asking them to do what only God can and should do.

22 posted on 12/15/2013 9:55:46 AM PST by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith....)
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To: metmom

That meme “we don’t pray to Mary” looks pretty lame when a simple search of the words of the RCC shows otherwise doesn’t it. One more example of the duplicity and hypocrisy.


23 posted on 12/15/2013 10:14:12 AM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: metmom

It just occurred to me that Jesus did not ask us to pray to Him! We are to pray to the Father. We pray in Jesus’ Name because of the power given to Him to answer our prayers according to the will of the Father. When I pray I rarely think of praying to Jesus, I usually think of my Father. Old habit from when I was a kid. God became my dad at 10. Jesus is my King, but God the Father is my dad. Just how I view things.


24 posted on 12/15/2013 10:39:30 AM PST by huldah1776
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To: epluribus_2
We ask Mary to pray for us. We do not pray TO Mary to do anything requiring godlike powers. If the saints can hear us pray - why not pray to the one closest to Christ?

I remember when I belonged to the Church of Rome, I told Christians the same kind of stuff just so they would leave me alone. Even though I knew it wasn't the case.
25 posted on 12/15/2013 10:41:34 AM PST by Old Yeller
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To: huldah1776

Exactly.

For years I was confused too about who to pray for because in the church so many prayed to Jesus, but really based on what Jesus taught, it’s the Father.

I don’t need to go to my siblings or Mom to ask Dad for me. What an affront to him.

I’d rather have someone ask me for something than have them go to someone else to get to me. What’s the matter? Do they not trust me? Honestly, if someone cannot bother to come to me for something themselves, I’m not real inclined to give it to them. I’d figure either I wasn’t important enough to ask or that they were just using me.


26 posted on 12/15/2013 11:18:36 AM PST by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith....)
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To: CynicalBear

They sure do pray TO her FOR things.

It’s there for all to see.


27 posted on 12/15/2013 11:20:00 AM PST by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith....)
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To: GonzoII

“When one offers prayer he obviously knows what he is saying.”

Again, you go beyond what is in the text. The Elders and Living Creatures are HOLDING incense described as the prayers of the saints.
No where does it say the Elders or Living Creatures are SAYING or PRAYING these to God.

Your position of deciding a doctrine and then looking for some place to support it in the Bible does injustice to the meaning of the passage.


28 posted on 12/15/2013 11:36:05 AM PST by aMorePerfectUnion (I grew up in America. I now live in the United States..)
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To: GonzoII

“Further, the prayers are from those under the alter who
have been martyred in during the end times judgements.”

“I see no connection with the Martyrs under the altar in
Rev 6:9 with the prayers of the Saints being offered in Rev 5:8.


Then I suggest some actual Bible Study is in order. Perhaps if you outline the major sections of the Book, you will understand what is happening.


29 posted on 12/15/2013 11:37:14 AM PST by aMorePerfectUnion (I grew up in America. I now live in the United States..)
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To: GonzoII

God, the Father, did not use the Bible to bring Jesus to us, He chose Mary. Those that dis Mary, dis the Father.


30 posted on 12/15/2013 11:39:14 AM PST by ex-snook (God is Love)
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To: ex-snook

I like the way you put that, brother...I love that Bible too!


31 posted on 12/15/2013 11:56:08 AM PST by GonzoII (Ted Cruz/Susana Martinez 2016)
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To: GonzoII; All

I think the following should pretty well end any question about the idolatrous and absolutely fiendish nature of Catholic prayers to Mary:

From the Secret of the Rosary, endorsed by your Popes:

“One day the King fell seriously ill and when he was given up for dead he found himself, in a vision, before the judgement seat of Our Lord. Many devils were there accusing him of all the sins he had committed and Our Lord as Sovereign Judge was just about to condemn him to hell when Our Lady appeared to intercede for him. She called for a pair of scales and had his sins placed in one of the balances whereas she put the rosary that he had always worn on the other scale, together with all the Rosaries that had been said because of his example. It was found that the Rosaries weighed more than his sins.

Looking at him with great kindness Our Lady said: “As a reward for this little honor that you paid me in wearing my Rosary, I have obtained a great grace for you from my Son. Your life will be spared for a few more years. See that you spend these years wisely, and do penance.”

When the King regained consciousness he cried out: “Blessed be the Rosary of the Most Holy Virgin Mary, by which I have been delivered from eternal damnation!”

After he had recovered his health he spent the rest of his life in spreading devotion to the Holy Rosary and said it faithfully every day.

People who love the Blessed Virgin out to follow the example of King Alphonsus and that of the saints whom I have mentioned so that they too may win other souls for the Confraternity of the Holy Rosary. They will then receive great graces on earth and eternal life later on. “They that explain me shall have life everlasting life.” [1] Ecclus. 24:31”

Another story on how saying rosaries can earn you salvation:

“Later on, when she was at prayer she fell into ecstasy and had a vision of her soul appearing before the Supreme Judge. Saint Michael put all her penances and to her prayers on one side of the scale and all her sins and imperfections on the other. The tray of her good works were greatly outweighed by that of her sins and imperfections.

Filled with alarm, she cried out for mercy, imploring the help of the Blessed Virgin, her gracious advocate, who took the one and only Rosary she had said for her penance and dropped it on the tray of her good works. This one Rosary was so heavy that it weighed more than all her sins as well as her good works. Our Lady then reproved her for having refused to follow the counsel of her servant Dominic and for not saying the Rosary every day.

As soon as she came to herself she rushed and threw herself at the feet of Saint Dominic and told him all that had happened, begged his forgiveness and promised to say the Rosary faithfully every day. By this means she rose to Christian perfection and finally to the glory of everlasting life.”

http://www.rosary-center.org/secret.htm

Popes on the “sure and most efficacious means” for help from heaven:

“We constantly seek for help from Heaven - the sole means of effecting anything - that our labours and our care may obtain their wished for object. We deem that there could be no surer and more efficacious means to this end than by religion and piety to obtain the favour of the great Virgin Mary, the Mother of God, the guardian of our peace and the minister to us of heavenly grace, who is placed on the highest summit of power and glory in Heaven, in order that she may bestow the help of her patronage on men who through so many labours and dangers are striving to reach that eternal city. Now that the anniversary, therefore, of manifold and exceedingly great favours obtained by a Christian people through the devotion of the Rosary is at hand, We desire that that same devotion should be offered by the whole Catholic world with the greatest earnestness to the Blessed Virgin, that by her intercession her Divine Son may be appeased and softened in the evils which afflict us. And therefore We determined, Venerable Brethren, to despatch to you these letters in order that, informed of Our designs, your authority and zeal might excite the piety of your people to conform themselves to them.” (ENCYCLICAL OF POPE LEO XIII ON DEVOTION OF THE ROSARY)
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_01091883_supremi-apostolatus-officio_en.html

A decree to perform them:

“We decree and order that in the whole Catholic world, during this year, the devotion of the Rosary shall be solemnly celebrated by special and splendid services. From the first day of next October, therefore, until the second day of the November following, in every parish and, if the ecclesiastical authority deem it opportune and of use, in every chapel dedicated to the Blessed Virgin - let five decades of the Rosary be recited with the addition of the Litany of Loreto.” (SUPREMI APOSTOLATUS OFFICIO, ENCYCLICAL OF POPE LEO XIII ON DEVOTION OF THE ROSARY)

The importance of the Rosary to a Pope:

“With these words, dear brothers and sisters, I set the first year of my Pontificate within the daily rhythm of the Rosary. Today, as I begin the twenty-fifth year of my service as the Successor of Peter, I wish to do the same. How many graces have I received in these years from the Blessed Virgin through the Rosary: Magnificat anima mea Dominum! I wish to lift up my thanks to the Lord in the words of his Most Holy Mother, under whose protection I have placed my Petrine ministry: Totus Tuus!” (ROSARIUM VIRGINIS MARIAE OF THE SUPREME PONTIFF JOHN PAUL II)

Obviously, when you have Mary depicted as being more merciful and knowledgeable than the son, and devotion to her specifically saving this person from the punishment of Christ, you’ve another rival deity who is more approachable, foresighted and merciful than Christ Himself. You also deny Christ’s work on the cross.


32 posted on 12/15/2013 12:06:27 PM PST by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: huldah1776

It is confusing. But you’re right, we are to pray to our Father. Yet, His Son intercedes for us, so even when we pray to our Father, our prayers go through His Son.

Now, I’m confused!


33 posted on 12/15/2013 12:31:21 PM PST by bubbacluck (America 180)
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To: epluribus_2
We ask Mary to pray for us. We do not pray TO Mary to do anything requiring godlike powers.

That is patently untrue...We have posted countless times prayers written to Mary from your leaders in your religious institution, and in those prayers, asking for things that only God can provide...And yet, you guys keep making that ridiculous statement...

34 posted on 12/15/2013 5:47:02 PM PST by Iscool
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To: metmom
I’d rather have someone ask me for something than have them go to someone else to get to me. What’s the matter? Do they not trust me? Honestly, if someone cannot bother to come to me for something themselves, I’m not real inclined to give it to them. I’d figure either I wasn’t important enough to ask or that they were just using me.

Perhaps they just know that they don't have a relationship with God...

35 posted on 12/15/2013 5:55:08 PM PST by Iscool
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; caww; count-your-change; ...
Obviously, when you have Mary depicted as being more merciful and knowledgeable than the son, and devotion to her specifically saving this person from the punishment of Christ, you’ve another rival deity who is more approachable, foresighted and merciful than Christ Himself. You also deny Christ’s work on the cross.

For sure.

This prayer to Mary says it all.

http://www.stcathek.org/OLPH.htm

Our Mother of Perpetual Help

Third Novena Prayer

O Mother of Perpetual Help, thou art the dispenser of all the gifts which God grants to us miserable sinners; and for this end He has made thee so powerful, so rich, and so bountiful, in order that thou mayest help us in our misery.

Thou are the advocate of the most wretched and abandoned sinners who have recourse to thee: come to my aid, for I recommend myself to thee.

In thy hands I place my eternal salvation, and to thee I entrust my soul. Count me amongst thy most devoted servants; take me under thy protection, and it is enough for me.

For, if thou wilt protect me, I fear nothing; not from my sins, because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them; nor from the devils, because thou art more powerful than all hell together; nor even from Jesus, my judge, because by one prayer from thee He will be appeased.

But one thing I fear: that in the hour of temptation I may through negligence fail to have recourse to thee and thus perish miserably. Obtain for me, therefore, the pardon of my sins, love for Jesus, final perseverance, and the grace ever to have recourse to thee, O Mother of Perpetual Help. 3 Ave’s

And Catholics claims they don't pray TO Mary for anything.

*Jesus, my judge* For real???????

36 posted on 12/15/2013 6:27:52 PM PST by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith....)
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To: metmom

Ping to post 36 re: post 12.

I believe this addresses your comment and shows it to be inaccurate.


37 posted on 12/15/2013 6:29:20 PM PST by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith....)
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To: CynicalBear
The Catholic Catechism says Catholics pray TO Mary but maybe that's not an “authoritative” enough.
38 posted on 12/15/2013 6:51:09 PM PST by count-your-change (you don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough)
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To: count-your-change
In the Religion forum, on a thread titled How Can Mary Hear Thousands Simultaneously?, count-your-change wrote:
The Catholic Catechism says Catholics pray TO Mary but maybe that's not an “authoritative” enough.
Pray - as in ask - not as in worship. Attorneys "pray" in court, they are not worshiping the judge.
39 posted on 12/15/2013 6:54:47 PM PST by narses (... unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.)
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To: liege

We pray to the Father in Jesus name because it’s Jesus righteousness that we are covered with. We have no righteousness of our own. Look at it like Jesus giving us power of attorney. When we stand before the Father He sees Jesus just as a banker would have to treat us as if we were the person who we had power of attorney from.


40 posted on 12/15/2013 6:54:59 PM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: metmom

My soul magnifies the Lord,
And my spirit rejoices in God my Savior.
For He has regarded the low estate of His handmaiden,
For behold, henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
For He who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is His name. And His mercy is on those who fear Him from generation to generation.
He has shown strength with His arm:
He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
He has put down the mighty from their thrones,
and exalted those of low degree.
He has filled the hungry with good things;
and the rich He has sent empty away.
He has helped His servant Israel, in remembrance of His mercy;
As He spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to His posterity forever.

Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit.
As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen

Magníficat ánima mea Dóminum,
et exsultávit spíritus meus
in Deo salvatóre meo,
quia respéxit humilitátem
ancíllæ suæ.

Ecce enim ex hoc beátam
me dicent omnes generatiónes,
quia fecit mihi magna,
qui potens est,
et sanctum nomen eius,
et misericórdia eius in progénies
et progénies timéntibus eum.
Fecit poténtiam in bráchio suo,
dispérsit supérbos mente cordis sui;
depósuit poténtes de sede
et exaltávit húmiles.
Esuriéntes implévit bonis
et dívites dimísit inánes.
Suscépit Ísrael púerum suum,
recordátus misericórdiæ,
sicut locútus est ad patres nostros,
Ábraham et sémini eius in sæcula.

Glória Patri et Fílio
et Spirítui Sancto.
Sicut erat in princípio,
et nunc et semper,
et in sæcula sæculórum.

Amen.

She became the Mother of God, in which work so many and such great good things are bestowed on her as pass man’s understanding. For on this there follows all honor, all blessedness, and her unique place in the whole of mankind, among which she has no equal, namely, that she had a child by the Father in heaven, and such a Child . . . Hence men have crowded all her glory into a single word, calling her the Mother of God . . . None can say of her nor announce to her greater things, even though he had as many tongues as the earth possesses flowers and blades of grass: the sky, stars; and the sea, grains of sand. It needs to be pondered in the heart what it means to be the Mother of God.

(Commentary on the Magnificat, 1521; in Luther’s Works, Pelikan et al, vol. 21, 326)


41 posted on 12/15/2013 6:57:05 PM PST by narses (... unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.)
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To: narses

The Catechism makes no such distinction so by what authority do you interpret what it says?


42 posted on 12/15/2013 6:57:39 PM PST by count-your-change (you don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough)
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To: Iscool

CHRISTUS VINCIT
Christ King of Glory

Acclamations VIII Cent.
Ambrosian Chant (Variant)

Christus vincit! Christus regnat! Christus imperat!
Exaudi, Christe. Ecclesiae Sanctae Dei salus perpetua. Redemptor mundi, Tu illam
adjuva!

Christ Lord of glory, Christ Prince of nations, Christ our King of kings! Christ Jesus,
hear us. Perpetual safety and welfare to the Church of God. Redeemer, Savior. Assist
and strengthen her.

1. Sancta Maria: Tu illam adjuva!
O Mary blessed Mother. Assist and strengthen her.

2. Sancte Joseph: Tu illam adjuva!
Joseph holy guardian. Assist and strengthen her.

3. Sancte Michael Tu illam adjuva!
Blessed Michael patron Assist and strengthen her.

Optional (Sancte Patricii: Tu illam adjuva!)
Blessed Saint Patrick: Assist and strengthen her.

All repeat: Christus vincit! Christus regnat! Christus imperat!

Exaudi, Christe. Pio summo Pontifici et universali Papae vita! Salvator mundi, Tu illum
adjuva!

Christ Jesus hear us. Life and health and blessings to Pope Pius our Holy Father.
Redeemer Savior, Assist and strengthen him.

1. Sancte Petre, Tu illum adjuva! 1. Rex regum!
Blessed Peter, Assist and strengthen him. King of kings.

2. Sancte Paule, Tu illum adjuva! 2. Rex noster!
Blessed Paul, assist and strengthen him. Christ our King

3. Spes nostra!
Christ our hope.

Repeat: Christus Vincit! etc.

Gloria nostra, Misericordia nostra! Auxilium nostrum! Fortitudo nostra, Ar ma nostra
invictissima! Murus noster inexpugnabilis! Defensio et exaltatio nostra!

Lux, Via, et Vita nostra! Ipsi soli imperium, Laus et jubilatio per infinita saecula
saeculorum. Amen.

Jesus our glory, Fountain of grace and all mercy. Source of all our blessing. Defender
in battle, Strong arm of our God invincible. Our stronghold and our exaltation. Our
captain leader who has won our salvation.

Christ Jesus, our life and light eternal. To Him only is victory all praise and jubilation.
Through all the endless ages of eternity. Amen.

Tempora bona veniant! Pax Christi veniat! Redemptis Sanguine Christi: Feliciter!
Regnum Christi veniat! Deo Gratias! Amen.

Abundance of good things be ours. The peace of Christ be ours. Redeemed by the blood
of Jesus. Proclaim our joy. May His holy kingdom come. Praise be to our God Amen.


Provided courtesy of:
Eternal Word Television Network
5817 Old Leeds Road
Irondale, AL 35210
www.ewtn.com


43 posted on 12/15/2013 6:59:09 PM PST by narses (... unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.)
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To: count-your-change

The Catechism in fact does.


44 posted on 12/15/2013 6:59:43 PM PST by narses (... unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.)
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To: narses

And you’re going to say where?


45 posted on 12/15/2013 7:03:54 PM PST by count-your-change (you don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough)
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To: count-your-change

Why? Are you at all interested in the truth about what the Catholic Church teaches?


46 posted on 12/15/2013 7:05:28 PM PST by narses (... unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.)
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To: metmom

How seemingly intelligent people can deny something so obvious is beyond my understanding.


47 posted on 12/15/2013 7:08:00 PM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: count-your-change

They even appear serious when they deny it still.


48 posted on 12/15/2013 7:12:29 PM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: narses

Surely you know or can find some reference in the Catechism to support your statement that it makes a distinction between prayer and asking.

You chose to respond to my comment, remember?


49 posted on 12/15/2013 7:16:37 PM PST by count-your-change (you don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough)
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To: Old Yeller
I remember when I belonged to the Church of Rome, I told Christians the same kind of stuff just so they would leave me alone. Even though I knew it wasn't the case.

\sure it was the case, you just didn't have enough faith to realize that you were right.....then, not now.

50 posted on 12/15/2013 7:17:24 PM PST by terycarl (common sense rules overall)
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