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Pope says he is not a "Marxist" and it is not time to start "clericalizing" women
Vatican Insider ^ | December 14, 2013 | ANDREA TORNIELLI

Posted on 12/15/2013 9:14:52 AM PST by NYer

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To: x

Well, let’s just say his reflex statement to take the edge off….did not work. Nice try though.


51 posted on 12/15/2013 11:29:54 AM PST by C. Edmund Wright (Tokyo Rove is more than a name, it's a GREAT WEBSITE)
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To: sinsofsolarempirefan

Doesn’t change the validity of my point…he wasn’t talking about 18 year olds or 14 year olds either……he was talking about adults, and adults who are Marxists are simply NOT nice people under any reasonable definition.

Pleasant? Maybe. Nice? NO NO NO and NO.


52 posted on 12/15/2013 11:31:13 AM PST by C. Edmund Wright (Tokyo Rove is more than a name, it's a GREAT WEBSITE)
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To: oblomov
In my experience, the giveaway that someone is a Marxist (or Marxian, if you prefer) is that they refer to the status quo system (subsidies, bailouts, anti-competitive regs, licensing requirements, etc.) as laissez faire capitalism, sometimes using the terms “neo-liberalism” or “cultural capitalism”.

Not everybody who talks that way is a Marxist by any means.

First of all, there's a tradition in Christianity of backing away from the idea of extreme laissez-faire or materialism, even when laissez-faire doesn't really exist. It's left over from the past. Any institution that's been around long enough has a lot of baggage, a lot of slogans and pronouncements left over from earlier conflicts. It's also way of shoring up one side of your political foundation and getting on to other matters.

If "laissez-faire" is a bogeyman that people just attack as an unthinking reflex or a zombie idea that no longer corresponds to much in reality, "Marxism" is similar in the way it gets thrown around and applied to people and situations where it doesn't really fit. So you guys may not be as different as you think..

Secondly, some people who come from poor countries or went through the Depression or entered religious vocations do want to maintain some distance from complete celebration of free markets. In itself that doesn't make them Marxists or Communists or socialists. They may be willing to give a cheer or two for capitalism, but don't want to give all three cheers.

Perhaps one influence is the religious impulse to give full assent only to God. We understood all that back in the Cold War, when it was necessary to get people of very different views together in the same boat to oppose actual Communists or Marxists. It would be a pity if we lost that understanding now.

53 posted on 12/15/2013 11:52:40 AM PST by x
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To: NYer

A “Marxist” is a person who has studied Marx and his followers, including modern academic Marxists, and follows their teachings with full awareness of doing it. On the Internet, a fountain of worldly wisdom, “Marxist” is everyone who doesn’t agree with you, something like an “idiot”. In other words, “Marxism” is used as an ignorant insult by, uh, idiots.

Obama may be for all we know an unconscious Marxist, clueless dilettante Marxist, who we know admitted to associating with Marxists at the university.


54 posted on 12/15/2013 12:02:02 PM PST by Revolting cat! (Bad things are wrong! Ice cream is delicious!)
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To: C. Edmund Wright
I am just trying to define a "good Marxist" as Francis might define one based on his following comments in recent weeks:

Everyone has his own idea of good and evil and must choose to follow the good and fight the evil as he conceives them. That would be enough to make the world a better place.

Trust me, I am in no way defending it.

55 posted on 12/15/2013 1:28:55 PM PST by piusv
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To: C. Edmund Wright

“WHO is a good Marxist”.

Ask all the democrats and republicans kissing the rear end of Nelson Mandela. He was worst than a Marxist, but the world kissed his ass when he died. Including the Pope, which I disagreed with.


56 posted on 12/15/2013 2:04:13 PM PST by NKP_Vet ("God never tires of forgiving us, we are the ones who tire of seeking his mercy" - Pope Francis)
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To: Kip Russell

Because leftists are obsessed with lesbians and men sodomites.


57 posted on 12/15/2013 2:05:38 PM PST by NKP_Vet ("God never tires of forgiving us, we are the ones who tire of seeking his mercy" - Pope Francis)
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To: ThePatriotsFlag

“socialist, Marxist or some other economical-whacko group”

Socialists and Marxist are athiests. So are you calling the Pope an athiest?


58 posted on 12/15/2013 2:08:01 PM PST by NKP_Vet ("God never tires of forgiving us, we are the ones who tire of seeking his mercy" - Pope Francis)
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To: C. Edmund Wright

So are you saying he is lying? Better watch out, Santa is coming!


59 posted on 12/15/2013 2:14:14 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

No, I think he is clueless as to what Marxism is, in practice, and what free enterprise is, in practice. But I’m glad you came along, so would you please tell me who and what a “nice marxist” is??????

I can’t wait for your answer….


60 posted on 12/15/2013 2:21:59 PM PST by C. Edmund Wright (Tokyo Rove is more than a name, it's a GREAT WEBSITE)
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To: NKP_Vet

not all socialists and marxists are atheists, though it is the norm….. but the Pope is the one who said Marxists were nice…..so burden of proof is on him and his supporters to splain that…..


61 posted on 12/15/2013 2:23:08 PM PST by C. Edmund Wright (Tokyo Rove is more than a name, it's a GREAT WEBSITE)
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To: piusv

….got it…..but I know he has some defenders on this site…and I want them to try and do so…….


62 posted on 12/15/2013 2:24:53 PM PST by C. Edmund Wright (Tokyo Rove is more than a name, it's a GREAT WEBSITE)
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To: Salvation
So are you saying he is lying?

Not lying, politically ignorant.

63 posted on 12/15/2013 2:25:39 PM PST by xone
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To: Salvation

Did I miss your answer????


64 posted on 12/15/2013 2:29:31 PM PST by C. Edmund Wright (Tokyo Rove is more than a name, it's a GREAT WEBSITE)
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To: NYer

Too many people want the Pope, whoever he happens to be, to praise Warren Buffett, no wait, he’s a “Marxist”, Buffett is, how about Donald Trump, no, he’s a “socialist”, who then? T Boone Pickett maybe, or Perot, hell, no, not Perot, he gave us the Krintongs, instead of letting us keep Daddy ADA Bush.


65 posted on 12/15/2013 2:29:35 PM PST by Revolting cat! (Bad things are wrong! Ice cream is delicious!)
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To: xone

**When asked by Italian Vatican analyst Andrea Tornielli about the accusations of Marxism from “ultra-conservative Americans,” who took issue with certain passages of the Pope’s recent apostolic exhortation, Evangelii Gaudium, the Pontiff was quick to denounce such ideology.

“The Marxist ideology is wrong,” he responded flatly.**

I guess you didn’t see his direct quote on the other thread.

In my opinion he is not ignorant, and you are continuing to misquote him.

Why? Do you hate Catholics? Hate the Catholic Church?

Why would you post untruths?


66 posted on 12/15/2013 2:29:46 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: C. Edmund Wright

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3102016/posts?page=66#66


67 posted on 12/15/2013 2:30:54 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

He then went on to say that he was not insulted by the claim he was a Marxists….since he knows some and they are nice.

………so?????


68 posted on 12/15/2013 2:31:19 PM PST by C. Edmund Wright (Tokyo Rove is more than a name, it's a GREAT WEBSITE)
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To: Salvation

That’s not an answer, thats just infantile rants on your part.

There is evidence the Pope likes some Marxists. There is no evidence anyone here hates the Catholic Church.


69 posted on 12/15/2013 2:33:02 PM PST by C. Edmund Wright (Tokyo Rove is more than a name, it's a GREAT WEBSITE)
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To: C. Edmund Wright

So do you know people who were nice and might have gone to Mandela’s funeral or praised his efforts?

What the Pope is saying, in my opinion is that he cannot judge — Christ will be the judge.

While we are alive, Christ is perfect mercy. At the moment of our death, Christ becomes perfect justice.

How will you answer Christ then?


70 posted on 12/15/2013 2:33:42 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: C. Edmund Wright

That’s a personal attack.

Good bye.


71 posted on 12/15/2013 2:34:22 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

Well we are called to judge - by their fruits. I’m not judging on salvation, that is Christ’ job alone…..and what going to Mandela’s funeral and saying that Marxists are nice have to do with each other ….is a mystery.


72 posted on 12/15/2013 2:39:55 PM PST by C. Edmund Wright (Tokyo Rove is more than a name, it's a GREAT WEBSITE)
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To: Salvation

No, it’s not a personal attack. You claiming that certain people hate Catholics is a personal attack however. Hate is a continuous accusation…..an infantile rant points only to a particular action and is not a personal attack at all.


73 posted on 12/15/2013 2:41:53 PM PST by C. Edmund Wright (Tokyo Rove is more than a name, it's a GREAT WEBSITE)
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To: C. Edmund Wright

They might very well be people that none of us would know. He’s the Pope. Imho, it’s his job to be forgiving, compassionate and loving. To be a leader and teacher.

From the Catholic Encyclopedia: “The title pope, once used with far greater latitude (see below, section V), is at present employed solely to denote the Bishop of Rome, who, in virtue of his position as successor of St. Peter, is the chief pastor of the whole Church, the Vicar of Christ upon earth.”

He’s not an economist, or a politician. He is not Pope John Paul II, or Pope Benedict, but for some reason that only He can know, God has chosen him to lead the Church during this difficult time.


74 posted on 12/15/2013 2:42:08 PM PST by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: NYer

I believe that his heart is full of love. God bless him.


75 posted on 12/15/2013 2:42:55 PM PST by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: trisham

Nobody calling for countries to feed and support anyone who crosses the border by robbing the citizens can be very full of love.


76 posted on 12/15/2013 2:48:09 PM PST by GeronL (Extra Large Cheesy Over-Stuffed Hobbit)
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To: GeronL

He’s the Pope. He doesn’t have the same priorities that many of us have. He sees the world in a different way.


77 posted on 12/15/2013 2:49:51 PM PST by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: trisham

That may be true, but he criticized the very system that has lifted more people out of poverty than any other….by indicating that it was a system that was responsible for poverty. I’m sorry….I can’t go along with the infalibility doctrine on this one….


78 posted on 12/15/2013 2:53:04 PM PST by C. Edmund Wright (Tokyo Rove is more than a name, it's a GREAT WEBSITE)
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To: USS Alaska

The only good Marxists are the four gentlemen in that photo IMHO.


79 posted on 12/15/2013 2:53:29 PM PST by ReformationFan
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To: oblomov

That is a close cousin of socialism. It requires an all powerful body to limit and distribute capital. Great on paper till you start thinking how it would work


80 posted on 12/15/2013 2:58:05 PM PST by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: C. Edmund Wright

..the Pope is the one who said Marxists were nice...

_____________________________

I don’t think that is precisely what the Pope said. ;-/


81 posted on 12/15/2013 2:59:06 PM PST by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo....Sum Pro Vita - Modified Descartes)
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To: trisham

He is calling for the use of force, the gun, to rob citizens in order to support criminals in their midst. Maybe next he will declare these criminal invaders have the right to take our homes away from us?


82 posted on 12/15/2013 3:04:16 PM PST by GeronL (Extra Large Cheesy Over-Stuffed Hobbit)
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To: C. Edmund Wright; trisham

...he criticized the very system that has lifted more people out of poverty than any other...

______________________________

Again, you are not conveying precisely what the Pope said.

.....I can’t go along with the infalibility doctrine on this one.....

This statement had nothing (NADA) to do with an infallible statement (which, by the way, RARELY occurs).


83 posted on 12/15/2013 3:05:02 PM PST by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo....Sum Pro Vita - Modified Descartes)
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To: C. Edmund Wright
I’m sorry….I can’t go along with the infalibility doctrine on this one….

*******************************

I understand. This was an interview, and I would be surprised if the doctrine of infallibility applies.

84 posted on 12/15/2013 3:06:07 PM PST by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: GeronL

I didn’t see that in this article. ?


85 posted on 12/15/2013 3:09:20 PM PST by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: SumProVita

Yes, that is my understanding as well, although I confess that the doctrine of infallibility is a complicated one.


86 posted on 12/15/2013 3:12:34 PM PST by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: SumProVita

True, but some people seem to ascribe infallibility to his statements…in a general sense anyway.

And I have yet to see anyone convey anything different….they just claim that he is being taken out of context. What? Like Jeremiah Wright was?


87 posted on 12/15/2013 3:15:50 PM PST by C. Edmund Wright (Tokyo Rove is more than a name, it's a GREAT WEBSITE)
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To: SumProVita
I don’t think that is precisely what the Pope said

oh, you are so right. What the Pope said was actually a much stronger endorsement of Marxists, calling them GOOD and not merely nice. Check out the article…..and thanks for clearing that up for us. I undersold what the Pope said about Marxists.

88 posted on 12/15/2013 3:18:54 PM PST by C. Edmund Wright (Tokyo Rove is more than a name, it's a GREAT WEBSITE)
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To: NYer
I got this far:

Christmas is joy, religious joy, God’s joy, an inner joy of light and peace. When you are unable or in a human situation that does not allow you to comprehend this joy, then one experiences this feast with a worldly joyfulness. But there is a difference between profound joy and worldly joyfulness.”

Very beautiful and true! Will read the rest in a bit. It's amazing how the press (and etc) want to make him say things he didn't say.

89 posted on 12/15/2013 3:22:28 PM PST by little jeremiah (Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point. CSLewis)
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To: NYer
I had to read more, I love this too:

So I can say: You know why, I don’t and You won’t tell me, but You’re looking at me and I trust You, Lord, I trust your gaze.”

90 posted on 12/15/2013 3:24:23 PM PST by little jeremiah (Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point. CSLewis)
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To: C. Edmund Wright; Salvation

It sounded to me as though he does not get insulted very easily...

It also sounds as though the “Nice Marxists” are private individuals he has met.


91 posted on 12/15/2013 3:30:25 PM PST by little jeremiah (Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point. CSLewis)
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To: little jeremiah

I am sure you are right about both of your points….but allow me to clarify: he called them “good” and not merely “nice” - (I mistook that in my first post) -

And I stand by the contention that there cannot by definition be a “good” Marxist. Just not possible.

They may be “pleasant” - as some think our marxist president is - and they may even act nice - but they absolutely cannot be good….as in God is great and God is good. Marxists are not good.

And I think the Pope should know that frankly.


92 posted on 12/15/2013 3:34:30 PM PST by C. Edmund Wright (Tokyo Rove is more than a name, it's a GREAT WEBSITE)
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To: little jeremiah

It’s so wonderful to see you, lj! Merry Christmas!


93 posted on 12/15/2013 3:36:47 PM PST by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: NYer

Is the “Good Marxist” screen handle still available on FR?


94 posted on 12/15/2013 3:39:18 PM PST by Revolting cat! (Bad things are wrong! Ice cream is delicious!)
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To: C. Edmund Wright

Where did you learn to read? He did not say that.


95 posted on 12/15/2013 3:49:43 PM PST by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo....Sum Pro Vita - Modified Descartes)
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To: little jeremiah; C. Edmund Wright; Salvation

....It also sounds as though the “Nice Marxists” are private individuals he has met.....

_________________________

You have obviously learned how to read well. ;-)


96 posted on 12/15/2013 3:52:52 PM PST by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo....Sum Pro Vita - Modified Descartes)
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To: little jeremiah
You’re looking at me and I trust You, Lord, I trust your gaze.

Sound familiar? "Jesus, I trust in you!" - St. Faustina.

97 posted on 12/15/2013 4:07:16 PM PST by NYer ("The wise man is the one who can save his soul. - St. Nimatullah Al-Hardini)
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To: NKP_Vet

Read the rest...”he should stick to Christianity and stay out of the political arena”


98 posted on 12/15/2013 4:12:52 PM PST by ThePatriotsFlag (...and to the Republic for which it stood.)
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To: Salvation
'he has known many Marxists who were still "good people."

The ideology that has claimed over a hundred million dead in the 20th century has adherents that are 'good people'? That quote was in there as well. No misquote, the Pope didn't walk it back at all. Now one must be ignorant of reality or a very poor judge of people.

Do you hate Catholics? Hate the Catholic Church?

No I hate marxism and promoters of the same.

99 posted on 12/15/2013 4:20:17 PM PST by xone
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To: C. Edmund Wright

I disagree. There are private persons who are Marxists who are pie in the sky idealists. They have good intentions but blind to the reality.

Hopefully most of those will wake up.

Not saying there are billions of this kind but there are some.


100 posted on 12/15/2013 4:20:43 PM PST by little jeremiah (Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point. CSLewis)
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