Skip to comments.The Vaticanís Left Turn Under Francis
Posted on 12/18/2013 11:10:23 AM PST by BlatherNaut
"...American conservative Catholics who defend Pope Francis keep saying that Francis is truly orthodox, despite the fact that the liberal US media love him. Maybe theyre right. But the further we go into this pontificate, the more I wonder if liberals understand something about Pope Francis that conservatives do not."
(Excerpt) Read more at theamericanconservative.com ...
It would be nice if the Pope would extol the virtues of Capitalism, by far the most dynamic economic system ever conceived of which has uplifted untold millions from proverty, disease, and oppression.
He might be right but I have trouble buying anything this guy writes, he was one of those eco-nuts who totally bought the AGW scam last I heard. Called himself a “Crunchy Con” or some such hogwash.
It would be nice, but it wouldn't be very Catholic.
"Since the origins of modern capitalism around 1780, more than two-thirds of the worlds population has moved out of poverty. In China and India alone, more than 500 million have been raised out of poverty just in the last forty years. In almost every nation the average age of mortality has risen dramatically, causing populations to expand accordingly. Health in almost every dimension has been improved, and literacy has been carried to remote places it never reached before.
Whatever the motives of individuals, the system has improved the plight of the poor as none ever has before. The contemporary left systematically refuses to face these undeniable facts."
-- Robert Novak, from the thread Economic Heresies of the Left (Novak on Caritas in Veritate)
If the Pharisees hate him, then I hate him!
Catholic all my life, don’t care the Pope’s opinion about capitalism.
Anyplace that tries to do away with it gets a black market for their trouble, because the market is a force of nature.
Capitalism made the Middle Class possible. Before that it was Kings and Peasants.
Read “The Servile State” and you will understand Francis and at least his eco-political tendencies. He neither hates capitalism nor socialism but is not in love with either. He sees that any virtue found in current economies has been silenced by the vice that now operates within it.
I’m Catholic too and I deplore the Church’s positions on economics, statism, and illegal immigration.
I don't know much about Rod Dreher, other than that AFAIK he converted to Catholicism during the Bush administration, and later converted to Russian Orthodoxy because he believed Catholicism was too liberal. See here:
Was I frustrated because the priests wouldnt preach Gods judgment instead of Gods mercy? By no means. I was frustrated because they wouldnt preach Gods judgment at all, which is to say, they preached Christ without the Cross. I knew the depths of the sins from which I was being delivered, and it felt wrong to treat His amazing grace like it was a common courtesy....American Catholicism was not pushing back against the hostile age at all. Rather, it had become a pushover. God is love was not a proclamation that liberated us captives from our sin and despair, but rather a bromide and a platitude that allowed us to believe that, and to behave as if, our lust, greed, malice and so forth sins that I struggled with every day werent to be despised and cast out, but rather shellacked by a river of treacle. I finally broke....
....There is, of course, no such thing as the perfect church, but in Orthodoxy, which radically resists the moralistic therapeutic deism that characterizes so much American Christianity, I found a soul-healing balance. In my Russian Orthodox country mission parish this past Sunday, the priest preached about love, joy, repentance, and forgiveness in all its dimensions.
-- from the thread Im Still Not Going Back to the Catholic Church: Pope Francis only confirms my decision to leave
That the Pope comes from Argentina also may give us a clue of his mindset regarding these issues. A country that spent itself into bankruptcy. I do not cry for Argentina. And I detest its politics. The generals seemed to do a better job than the politicians down there.
When RAT commie commentators like Nancy Giles praise the Pope, you know something is wrong:
Soon Obama will be taking selfies with Pope Francis.
Yeah, all those founding conservatives after World War II like William F. Buckley, Russell Kirk, Brent Bozell II, and Christopher Dawson were all closet liberals.
Not to mention all the popes of the 19th, 20th, and early 21st centuries.
Good post and great site.
The Pope won’t extol the virtues of capitalism because he has friends who are Marxists and they are nice people. I will not say what I really think here out of respect for what the Catholic church used to be.
What church has stood staunchly against
embryonic stem cell research
through the ages and even today?
What church to you attend? Can you say the same about it?
At least Jackie was dressed correctly. Pelosi wasn’t.
The same as you. The Church’s teaching is not the problem.
Individuals may have been conservative, but they have been few, and they are not counted among the bishops and cardinals of the Catholic church. Collectively speaking, IMO the leadership if not the "social teaching" of the Catholic church has been liberal for a long long time.
When put into the context of previous papal teaching, (teaching that has far more weighty authority I might add, because these are papal encyclicals, not mere apostolic exhortations), it would seem that Pope Francis' remarks are quite mild in comparison. This is papal teaching that goes back 120 years!
-- from the thread Pope Responds to Rush Limbaugh
Condemnation of socialism, not to mention abortion and homosexual acts and same-sex "marriage" is "liberal"?
Condemnation of capitalism and constitutional republics, support for illegal immigration and international trade unions, and repeated association with the Democratic Party is "conservative"?
“CONDEMNATION” of socialism, abortion and homosexual acts and same-sex ‘marriage’??? It’s one thing to CONDEMN it. It’s another to actually DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. As I would think as head of a religious organization, the pope could do. BIG DEAL: CONDEMNATION. That and $5.00 will get you a latte and big cookie.
The Church isn’t doing something concrete to oppose abortion and homosexualist activism? Do you really want to make that claim?
‘capitalism’ is a concept (and word) invented by Karl Marx, you Marxists!
Snake handling haters are gonna hate no matter what the Pope says, and they’ll pretend it is about something other than their eternal hatred for the Catholic Church.
Yes I do. I want to make that claim. Until the church lines up pro-abortion supporters like Pelosi, etc. and EXCOMMUNICATES them immediately, they are just *@#*#*#* in the wind. And homosexualist activism?! THAT’S a good one. The evidence speaks otherwise. The church reacts when they are cornered. Woooh. WHERE IS THE FIRE? WHERE IS THE OUTRAGE? WHERE IS THE RIGHTEOUS ANGER toward those IN YOUR CHURCH who support these abominations??? What kind of organization who purports to being in charge of bringing in Christ’s KINGDOM, does so with white gloves and limp noodle scourging of those IN-YOUR-FACE members? Yes, I DO make that claim. The RCC is nothing more than an impotent hull of big ideas, big words, and big claims. You are filled to the brim with emptiness. Bloated with it.
The “ virtues of Capitalism”. Actually is capitalism inherently virtuous? I ask because the concept of capitalism relies on the availability of capital/funds to anyone who is worthy of a loan - in order to pursue some sort of economic purpose that will produce a profit.
In that sense, one could go to the gospel where Jesus tells the parable of the three servants who were each given 10, 5, and 1 talent respectively by their master. When the master returned, he called each in to get a report on how they used the money. You will recall that the first two invested their money and were able to repay the master with some left over; the last went and buried his single coin and have nothing to show as to any effort to improve his situation or that of the master. well, the master scolded the last one and called him ‘worthless.’
So, based on this parable capitalism seems to be OK with Jesus.
However, capitalism is neither inherently virtuous or sinful. Capitalism matured in the 19th century in North America where there existed freedom and a virtuous population who were guided by Judeo-Christian principles. In that time and place it could flourish and lift up the entire population. But, without a moral population, capitalism can become an abusive economic system as well - mostly when money becomes an object of idolatry.
I think the latter is the concern of many people. It bothers me as well.
Still, an all powerful central government which thinks it owns all the products of our labor, is also greedy, wasteful, and abusive, and as such is worse than anything capitalism can produce.
Which gets back to Pope Frances’s words this summer which seemed to alarm many - when he said Christians ought to be primarily concerned about evangelizing the good news about Jesus Christ to a population that has become callous and bored by anything that smacks of spirituality. He mentioned that we ought not to be always talking about abortion and homosexuality - it was misconstrued. He could have used other sins - robbery, lying, etc., but because he mentioned the sins of the flesh everyone got their noses out of joint. IMHO, PF does have a legitimate point - the loss of a common Judeo-Christian morality is what is the problem in this world in that it drives the breakdown of morality in the culture.
The problem is that the Church's teaching is getting lost in the translation. The stream of peculiar commentary issuing from Pope Francis is exacerbating the problem. His mockery of "rosary counters", "sayer of prayers", "pelagians", etc., stings. His choice of a socialist such as Cardinal O'Malley for his kitchen cabinet and of Wuerl as a kingmaker speak for themselves in regard to his outlook. I don't doubt his orthodoxy in regard to abortion, etc., only his judgement. Time will tell whether his plan to decentralize the Church will create more confusion and further weaken the transmission of orthodox Catholic teaching.
Free market capitalism is so vastly superior to that of any other economic system which has ever been tried, it blows me away that anyone with half a brain (Catholic or otherwise) does not see that is an obvious truth.
Makes for a convenient system. When they out themselves, just add them to the prayer list.
Therefore capitalism is the lesser evil. Centralized economies invariably lead to infringements on personal freedom, including religious freedom.
The popes following Pope Pius XII were more interested in secular humanism and socialism than anything else and that includes this latest fool.
I too am a Roman Catholic, but thanks to God I’m a Conservative or Traditional one!
I’ll admit, I chuckled! A protestant calling another religion “liberal”, best joke I’ve heard on FreeRepublic in days
Protestantism is a general term, not a specific religion. I suspect that most folks around here know that.
Okay a “Calvinist” calling Catholics the liberal religion is that better??
95% of black Protestants voted for Obama...
Like I’ve said here before, I’ve had far more Roman Catholics seeking scripts for oral contraceptives than Calvinists.
But I don’t write prescriptions for BCPs.
While we know that Obama received about 95% of the vote from all blacks of all religions and the non-religious in 2008, we don’t have a breakdown of Christian denominations that the black voters were members of, by vote.
We do know that members of the Catholic denomination voted for Obama, which is typical for the Catholic vote, while the overall Protestant vote went republican, which is typical for the Protestant vote.
We know that America’s largest denomination, Catholic, voted for Obama, and that America’s second largest denomination, Southern Baptist, voted massively, overwhelmingly against Obama.
What percentage of black Catholics voted for him?
Yes, the problem is post-Vatican II. It is certainly understandable why certain Protestant posters here consider the Catholic Church liberal. My guess is if they lived in 1950 they wouldn’t say the same thing.
The Catholic vote has always belonged to the democrat party, and they were known for being liberal and pro-union, pro-FDR, big city machine politics etc, before Vatican II, in fact they have voted republican a few times, since Vatican II.