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The Vaticanís Left Turn Under Francis
The American Conservative ^ | 12/17/13 | Rod Dreher

Posted on 12/18/2013 11:10:23 AM PST by BlatherNaut

"...American conservative Catholics who defend Pope Francis keep saying that Francis is truly orthodox, despite the fact that the liberal US media love him. Maybe they’re right. But the further we go into this pontificate, the more I wonder if liberals understand something about Pope Francis that conservatives do not."

(Excerpt) Read more at theamericanconservative.com ...


TOPICS: Catholic; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: catholic; dreher; francis; pope; popefrancis; religiousleft; vatican; wuerl
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1 posted on 12/18/2013 11:10:23 AM PST by BlatherNaut
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To: BlatherNaut

It would be nice if the Pope would extol the virtues of Capitalism, by far the most dynamic economic system ever conceived of which has uplifted untold millions from proverty, disease, and oppression.


2 posted on 12/18/2013 11:16:11 AM PST by Trapped Behind Enemy Lines
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To: BlatherNaut

He might be right but I have trouble buying anything this guy writes, he was one of those eco-nuts who totally bought the AGW scam last I heard. Called himself a “Crunchy Con” or some such hogwash.


3 posted on 12/18/2013 11:17:02 AM PST by GeronL (Extra Large Cheesy Over-Stuffed Hobbit)
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To: Trapped Behind Enemy Lines
It would be nice if the Pope would extol the virtues of Capitalism, by far the most dynamic economic system ever conceived of which has uplifted untold millions from proverty, disease, and oppression.

It would be nice, but it wouldn't be very Catholic.

"Since the origins of modern capitalism around 1780, more than two-thirds of the world’s population has moved out of poverty. In China and India alone, more than 500 million have been raised out of poverty just in the last forty years. In almost every nation the average age of mortality has risen dramatically, causing populations to expand accordingly. Health in almost every dimension has been improved, and literacy has been carried to remote places it never reached before.

Whatever the motives of individuals, the system has improved the plight of the poor as none ever has before. The contemporary left systematically refuses to face these undeniable facts."
-- Robert Novak, from the thread Economic Heresies of the Left (Novak on Caritas in Veritate)


4 posted on 12/18/2013 11:22:02 AM PST by Alex Murphy ("the defacto Leader of the FR Calvinist Protestant Brigades")
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To: BlatherNaut

If the Pharisees hate him, then I hate him!


5 posted on 12/18/2013 11:23:03 AM PST by If You Want It Fixed - Fix It
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To: Trapped Behind Enemy Lines

Catholic all my life, don’t care the Pope’s opinion about capitalism.
Anyplace that tries to do away with it gets a black market for their trouble, because the market is a force of nature.


6 posted on 12/18/2013 11:23:14 AM PST by steve8714 (New tag line under construction)
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To: Trapped Behind Enemy Lines

Capitalism made the Middle Class possible. Before that it was Kings and Peasants.


7 posted on 12/18/2013 11:23:20 AM PST by massgopguy (I owe everything to George Bailey)
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To: Trapped Behind Enemy Lines

Read “The Servile State” and you will understand Francis and at least his eco-political tendencies. He neither hates capitalism nor socialism but is not in love with either. He sees that any virtue found in current economies has been silenced by the vice that now operates within it.


8 posted on 12/18/2013 11:23:32 AM PST by ThomasMore (Islam is the Whore of Babylon!)
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To: steve8714

I’m Catholic too and I deplore the Church’s positions on economics, statism, and illegal immigration.


9 posted on 12/18/2013 11:26:34 AM PST by Trapped Behind Enemy Lines
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To: GeronL
He might be right but I have trouble buying anything this guy writes, he was one of those eco-nuts who totally bought the AGW scam last I heard. Called himself a “Crunchy Con” or some such hogwash.

I don't know much about Rod Dreher, other than that AFAIK he converted to Catholicism during the Bush administration, and later converted to Russian Orthodoxy because he believed Catholicism was too liberal. See here:

Was I frustrated because the priests wouldn’t preach God’s judgment instead of God’s mercy? By no means. I was frustrated because they wouldn’t preach God’s judgment at all, which is to say, they preached Christ without the Cross. I knew the depths of the sins from which I was being delivered, and it felt wrong to treat His amazing grace like it was a common courtesy....American Catholicism was not pushing back against the hostile age at all. Rather, it had become a pushover. God is love was not a proclamation that liberated us captives from our sin and despair, but rather a bromide and a platitude that allowed us to believe that, and to behave as if, our lust, greed, malice and so forth – sins that I struggled with every day — weren’t to be despised and cast out, but rather shellacked by a river of treacle. I finally broke....

....There is, of course, no such thing as the perfect church, but in Orthodoxy, which radically resists the moralistic therapeutic deism that characterizes so much American Christianity, I found a soul-healing balance. In my Russian Orthodox country mission parish this past Sunday, the priest preached about love, joy, repentance, and forgiveness – in all its dimensions.
-- from the thread I’m Still Not Going Back to the Catholic Church: Pope Francis only confirms my decision to leave


10 posted on 12/18/2013 11:28:09 AM PST by Alex Murphy ("the defacto Leader of the FR Calvinist Protestant Brigades")
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To: ThomasMore

That the Pope comes from Argentina also may give us a clue of his mindset regarding these issues. A country that spent itself into bankruptcy. I do not cry for Argentina. And I detest its politics. The generals seemed to do a better job than the politicians down there.


11 posted on 12/18/2013 11:29:37 AM PST by Trapped Behind Enemy Lines
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To: BlatherNaut
The Roman Catholic religion is liberal. They finally have someone in charge who has come out of the closet and admitted as much.
12 posted on 12/18/2013 11:30:51 AM PST by Gamecock (There are not just two ways to respond to God but three: irreligion, religion, and the gospel. (TK))
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To: BlatherNaut

When RAT commie commentators like Nancy Giles praise the Pope, you know something is wrong:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/nancy-giles-on-the-bold-and-scrappy-pope-francis/

Soon Obama will be taking selfies with Pope Francis.


13 posted on 12/18/2013 11:34:27 AM PST by SC_Pete
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To: Gamecock
The Roman Catholic religion is liberal.

Yeah, all those founding conservatives after World War II like William F. Buckley, Russell Kirk, Brent Bozell II, and Christopher Dawson were all closet liberals.

Not to mention all the popes of the 19th, 20th, and early 21st centuries.

14 posted on 12/18/2013 11:37:41 AM PST by Pyro7480 (Viva Cristo Rey!)
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To: Pyro7480

Good post and great site.


15 posted on 12/18/2013 11:39:49 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Trapped Behind Enemy Lines

The Pope won’t extol the virtues of capitalism because he has friends who are Marxists and they are nice people. I will not say what I really think here out of respect for what the Catholic church used to be.


16 posted on 12/18/2013 11:40:00 AM PST by The_Media_never_lie (Actually, they lie when it suits them! The crooked MS media must be defeated any way it can be done!)
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To: SC_Pete

What church has stood staunchly against
abortion
euthanasia
homosexuality
contraception
embryonic stem cell research

through the ages and even today?

What church to you attend? Can you say the same about it?


17 posted on 12/18/2013 11:41:32 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Pyro7480

18 posted on 12/18/2013 11:42:22 AM PST by Gamecock (There are not just two ways to respond to God but three: irreligion, religion, and the gospel. (TK))
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To: Pyro7480; Salvation
Divorced.


19 posted on 12/18/2013 11:43:59 AM PST by Gamecock (There are not just two ways to respond to God but three: irreligion, religion, and the gospel. (TK))
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To: Pyro7480; Salvation

20 posted on 12/18/2013 11:45:13 AM PST by Gamecock (There are not just two ways to respond to God but three: irreligion, religion, and the gospel. (TK))
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To: Gamecock

At least Jackie was dressed correctly. Pelosi wasn’t.


21 posted on 12/18/2013 11:45:38 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

The same as you. The Church’s teaching is not the problem.


22 posted on 12/18/2013 11:55:45 AM PST by SC_Pete
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To: Pyro7480; Gamecock
Yeah, all those founding conservatives after World War II like William F. Buckley, Russell Kirk, Brent Bozell II, and Christopher Dawson were all closet liberals. Not to mention all the popes of the 19th, 20th, and early 21st centuries.

Individuals may have been conservative, but they have been few, and they are not counted among the bishops and cardinals of the Catholic church. Collectively speaking, IMO the leadership if not the "social teaching" of the Catholic church has been liberal for a long long time.

When put into the context of previous papal teaching, (teaching that has far more weighty authority I might add, because these are papal encyclicals, not mere apostolic exhortations), it would seem that Pope Francis' remarks are quite mild in comparison. This is papal teaching that goes back 120 years!
-- from the thread Pope Responds to Rush Limbaugh

23 posted on 12/18/2013 12:01:14 PM PST by Alex Murphy ("the defacto Leader of the FR Calvinist Protestant Brigades")
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To: Alex Murphy; Gamecock
the "social teaching" of the Catholic church has been liberal for a long long time.

Condemnation of socialism, not to mention abortion and homosexual acts and same-sex "marriage" is "liberal"?


24 posted on 12/18/2013 12:08:14 PM PST by Pyro7480 (Viva Cristo Rey!)
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To: Gamecock

Pope John Paul II on his 1983 arrival in Managua, wags his finger and publicly reprimands Liberation Theology Jesuit priest and Sandinista Minister of Culture Ernesto Cardenal.
25 posted on 12/18/2013 12:10:41 PM PST by Pyro7480 (Viva Cristo Rey!)
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To: Pyro7480; Gamecock
Condemnation of socialism, not to mention abortion and homosexual acts and same-sex "marriage" is "liberal"?

Condemnation of capitalism and constitutional republics, support for illegal immigration and international trade unions, and repeated association with the Democratic Party is "conservative"?

26 posted on 12/18/2013 12:12:09 PM PST by Alex Murphy ("the defacto Leader of the FR Calvinist Protestant Brigades")
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To: Pyro7480; Alex Murphy

“CONDEMNATION” of socialism, abortion and homosexual acts and same-sex ‘marriage’??? It’s one thing to CONDEMN it. It’s another to actually DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. As I would think as head of a religious organization, the pope could do. BIG DEAL: CONDEMNATION. That and $5.00 will get you a latte and big cookie.


27 posted on 12/18/2013 12:13:03 PM PST by smvoice (There are no prizes given for defending the indefensible.)
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To: smvoice

The Church isn’t doing something concrete to oppose abortion and homosexualist activism? Do you really want to make that claim?


28 posted on 12/18/2013 12:15:44 PM PST by Pyro7480 (Viva Cristo Rey!)
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To: BlatherNaut; a fool in paradise

‘capitalism’ is a concept (and word) invented by Karl Marx, you Marxists!


29 posted on 12/18/2013 12:18:04 PM PST by Revolting cat! (Bad things are wrong! Ice cream is delicious!)
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To: Pyro7480; Gamecock; Alex Murphy
LIBERAL!? Seriously!? Naaaaah
30 posted on 12/18/2013 12:18:20 PM PST by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Gamecock

Please


31 posted on 12/18/2013 12:26:37 PM PST by frogjerk (We are conservatives. Not libertarians, not "fiscal conservatives", not moderates)
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To: BlatherNaut

Snake handling haters are gonna hate no matter what the Pope says, and they’ll pretend it is about something other than their eternal hatred for the Catholic Church.


32 posted on 12/18/2013 12:27:08 PM PST by Revolting cat! (Bad things are wrong! Ice cream is delicious!)
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To: Pyro7480

Yes I do. I want to make that claim. Until the church lines up pro-abortion supporters like Pelosi, etc. and EXCOMMUNICATES them immediately, they are just *@#*#*#* in the wind. And homosexualist activism?! THAT’S a good one. The evidence speaks otherwise. The church reacts when they are cornered. Woooh. WHERE IS THE FIRE? WHERE IS THE OUTRAGE? WHERE IS THE RIGHTEOUS ANGER toward those IN YOUR CHURCH who support these abominations??? What kind of organization who purports to being in charge of bringing in Christ’s KINGDOM, does so with white gloves and limp noodle scourging of those IN-YOUR-FACE members? Yes, I DO make that claim. The RCC is nothing more than an impotent hull of big ideas, big words, and big claims. You are filled to the brim with emptiness. Bloated with it.


33 posted on 12/18/2013 12:30:40 PM PST by smvoice (There are no prizes given for defending the indefensible.)
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To: Trapped Behind Enemy Lines

The “ virtues of Capitalism”. Actually is capitalism inherently virtuous? I ask because the concept of capitalism relies on the availability of capital/funds to anyone who is worthy of a loan - in order to pursue some sort of economic purpose that will produce a profit.

In that sense, one could go to the gospel where Jesus tells the parable of the three servants who were each given 10, 5, and 1 talent respectively by their master. When the master returned, he called each in to get a report on how they used the money. You will recall that the first two invested their money and were able to repay the master with some left over; the last went and buried his single coin and have nothing to show as to any effort to improve his situation or that of the master. well, the master scolded the last one and called him ‘worthless.’

So, based on this parable capitalism seems to be OK with Jesus.

However, capitalism is neither inherently virtuous or sinful. Capitalism matured in the 19th century in North America where there existed freedom and a virtuous population who were guided by Judeo-Christian principles. In that time and place it could flourish and lift up the entire population. But, without a moral population, capitalism can become an abusive economic system as well - mostly when money becomes an object of idolatry.

I think the latter is the concern of many people. It bothers me as well.

Still, an all powerful central government which thinks it owns all the products of our labor, is also greedy, wasteful, and abusive, and as such is worse than anything capitalism can produce.

Which gets back to Pope Frances’s words this summer which seemed to alarm many - when he said Christians ought to be primarily concerned about evangelizing the good news about Jesus Christ to a population that has become callous and bored by anything that smacks of spirituality. He mentioned that we ought not to be always talking about abortion and homosexuality - it was misconstrued. He could have used other sins - robbery, lying, etc., but because he mentioned the sins of the flesh everyone got their noses out of joint. IMHO, PF does have a legitimate point - the loss of a common Judeo-Christian morality is what is the problem in this world in that it drives the breakdown of morality in the culture.


34 posted on 12/18/2013 12:31:24 PM PST by Gumdrop
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To: SC_Pete
The Church’s teaching is not the problem.

The problem is that the Church's teaching is getting lost in the translation. The stream of peculiar commentary issuing from Pope Francis is exacerbating the problem. His mockery of "rosary counters", "sayer of prayers", "pelagians", etc., stings. His choice of a socialist such as Cardinal O'Malley for his kitchen cabinet and of Wuerl as a kingmaker speak for themselves in regard to his outlook. I don't doubt his orthodoxy in regard to abortion, etc., only his judgement. Time will tell whether his plan to decentralize the Church will create more confusion and further weaken the transmission of orthodox Catholic teaching.

35 posted on 12/18/2013 12:34:31 PM PST by BlatherNaut
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To: Gumdrop

Free market capitalism is so vastly superior to that of any other economic system which has ever been tried, it blows me away that anyone with half a brain (Catholic or otherwise) does not see that is an obvious truth.


36 posted on 12/18/2013 12:37:43 PM PST by Trapped Behind Enemy Lines
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To: Revolting cat!
Snake handling haters are gonna hate no matter what the Pope says, and they’ll pretend it is about something other than their eternal hatred for the Catholic Church.

Makes for a convenient system. When they out themselves, just add them to the prayer list.

37 posted on 12/18/2013 12:39:45 PM PST by BlatherNaut
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To: Gumdrop
Still, an all powerful central government which thinks it owns all the products of our labor, is also greedy, wasteful, and abusive, and as such is worse than anything capitalism can produce.

Therefore capitalism is the lesser evil. Centralized economies invariably lead to infringements on personal freedom, including religious freedom.

38 posted on 12/18/2013 12:50:20 PM PST by BlatherNaut
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To: Pyro7480

The popes following Pope Pius XII were more interested in secular humanism and socialism than anything else and that includes this latest fool.

I too am a Roman Catholic, but thanks to God I’m a Conservative or Traditional one!


39 posted on 12/18/2013 1:18:57 PM PST by IbJensen (Liberals are like Slinkies, good for nothing, but you smile as you push them down the stairs.)
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To: IbJensen
I think you're onto something. However, our regular opponents here on the Religion forum want to falsely paint our faith as inherently liberal/leftist -- when, in reality, they are the heirs of the first phase of the Revolution against Western Civilization.
40 posted on 12/18/2013 1:25:30 PM PST by Pyro7480 (Viva Cristo Rey!)
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To: Gamecock

I’ll admit, I chuckled! A protestant calling another religion “liberal”, best joke I’ve heard on FreeRepublic in days


41 posted on 12/18/2013 1:29:08 PM PST by escapefromboston (manny ortez: mvp)
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To: escapefromboston

Protestantism is a general term, not a specific religion. I suspect that most folks around here know that.


42 posted on 12/18/2013 1:35:15 PM PST by Gamecock (Celebrating 20,000 posts of dubious quality.)
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To: Gamecock

Okay a “Calvinist” calling Catholics the liberal religion…is that better??


43 posted on 12/18/2013 1:45:45 PM PST by escapefromboston (manny ortez: mvp)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
A man the Evil Empire feared:


44 posted on 12/18/2013 3:02:38 PM PST by Pyro7480 (Viva Cristo Rey!)
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To: escapefromboston

95% of black Protestants voted for Obama...


45 posted on 12/18/2013 3:13:44 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: escapefromboston

Yup.

Like I’ve said here before, I’ve had far more Roman Catholics seeking scripts for oral contraceptives than Calvinists.

But I don’t write prescriptions for BCPs.


46 posted on 12/18/2013 3:21:24 PM PST by Gamecock (Celebrating 20,000 posts of dubious quality.)
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To: Salvation; escapefromboston

While we know that Obama received about 95% of the vote from all blacks of all religions and the non-religious in 2008, we don’t have a breakdown of Christian denominations that the black voters were members of, by vote.

We do know that members of the Catholic denomination voted for Obama, which is typical for the Catholic vote, while the overall Protestant vote went republican, which is typical for the Protestant vote.

We know that America’s largest denomination, Catholic, voted for Obama, and that America’s second largest denomination, Southern Baptist, voted massively, overwhelmingly against Obama.


47 posted on 12/18/2013 3:58:26 PM PST by ansel12 ( Ben Bradley- JFK told me that "he was all for people's solving their problems by abortion".)
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To: Salvation; Gamecock
95% of black Protestants voted for Obama...

What percentage of black Catholics voted for him?

48 posted on 12/18/2013 4:09:21 PM PST by Alex Murphy ("the defacto Leader of the FR Calvinist Protestant Brigades")
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To: IbJensen

Yes, the problem is post-Vatican II. It is certainly understandable why certain Protestant posters here consider the Catholic Church liberal. My guess is if they lived in 1950 they wouldn’t say the same thing.


49 posted on 12/18/2013 4:20:11 PM PST by piusv
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To: piusv

The Catholic vote has always belonged to the democrat party, and they were known for being liberal and pro-union, pro-FDR, big city machine politics etc, before Vatican II, in fact they have voted republican a few times, since Vatican II.


50 posted on 12/18/2013 5:46:39 PM PST by ansel12 ( Ben Bradley- JFK told me that "he was all for people's solving their problems by abortion".)
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