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"Lies! I Was Cheated" -- Pope Francis' Daring Statement About Mary
http://eponymousflower.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/lies-i-was-cheated-pope-francis-daring.html#more ^

Posted on 12/22/2013 1:46:25 PM PST by piusv

"The Gospel tells us nothing: if she said a word or not ... She was quiet, but in her heart - how much she said to the Lord! 'You told me then - that's what we have read - that He will be great. You told me that You would give him the throne of his father David, that he will reign over the house of Jacob forever. And now I see Him there!' The Blessed Mother was human! And perhaps she would have wanted to say, 'lies! I have been cheated!'.

(Excerpt) Read more at eponymousflower.blogspot.co.uk ...


TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; Theology
KEYWORDS: popefrances; popefrancis; romancatholicism
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1 posted on 12/22/2013 1:46:25 PM PST by piusv
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To: piusv

Probably “Papa’ Francis shouldn’t attempt to be reading people’s minds when he admits himself “she said nothing” of what he is claiming.


2 posted on 12/22/2013 1:49:10 PM PST by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: piusv

Thank you for straightening me out on this matter. Wait...huh?


3 posted on 12/22/2013 1:49:37 PM PST by Resettozero
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To: piusv

Oy.


4 posted on 12/22/2013 1:50:44 PM PST by BlessedBeGod (Democrats are Cruz'n for a Bruisin' in 2016. / Obama=Unspeakable Audacity)
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To: BlessedBeGod

Tell me about it.


5 posted on 12/22/2013 1:51:38 PM PST by piusv
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To: piusv

The Cardinals elected the wrong man. He’s a loose cannon. He gathers around him the worst charlatans (Wuerl, O’Malley).

Even though he seems to be the wrong man for the job, he has it. Infallibility is not at issue. Let’s just hope he doesn’t do too much damage.


6 posted on 12/22/2013 2:01:30 PM PST by Arthur McGowan
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To: piusv
This is the context that the Pope was referring to, from John Paul's encyclical.

This blessing reaches its full meaning when Mary stands beneath the Cross of her Son (cf. Jn. 19:25). The Council says that this happened "not without a divine plan": by "suffering deeply with her only-begotten Son and joining herself with her maternal spirit to his sacrifice, lovingly consenting to the immolation of the victim to whom she had given birth," in this way Mary "faithfully preserved her union with her Son even to the Cross."38 It is a union through faith- the same faith with which she had received the angel's revelation at the Annunciation. At that moment she had also heard the words: "He will be great...and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there will be no end" (Lk. 1:32-33).

And now, standing at the foot of the Cross, Mary is the witness, humanly speaking, of the complete negation of these words. On that wood of the Cross her Son hangs in agony as one condemned. "He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows...he was despised, and we esteemed him not": as one destroyed (cf. Is. 53:3- 5). How great, how heroic then is the obedience of faith shown by Mary in the face of God's "unsearchable judgments"! How completely she "abandons herself to God" without reserve, offering the full assent of the intellect and the will"39 to him whose "ways are inscrutable" (cf. Rom. 11:33)! And how powerful too is the action of grace in her soul, how all-pervading is the influence of the Holy Spirit and of his light and power!

Through this faith Mary is perfectly united with Christ in his self- emptying. For "Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men": precisely on Golgotha "humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross" (cf. Phil. 2:5-8). At the foot of the Cross Mary shares through faith in the shocking mystery of this self- emptying. This is perhaps the deepest "kenosis" of faith in human history. Through faith the Mother shares in the death of her Son, in his redeeming death; but in contrast with the faith of the disciples who fled, hers was far more enlightened. On Golgotha, Jesus through the Cross definitively confirmed that he was the "sign of contradiction" foretold by Simeon. At the same time, there were also fulfilled on Golgotha the words which Simeon had addressed to Mary: "and a sword will pierce through your own soul also."

[ Redemptoris Mater, 18]

You be the judge whether an oral remark spoken by His Holiness in a homily fits John Paul II's well-measured prose. The blogger thinks it doesn't. I think, the blogger ignores the necessary difference in style between an encyclical and a homily.

7 posted on 12/22/2013 2:01:53 PM PST by annalex (fear them not)
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To: piusv
And perhaps she would have wanted to say, 'lies! I have been cheated!

Mary was conceived without sin, and thus would be incapable of wanting to call God a liar or a cheat. For a Pope to voice such speculations regarding the Mother of God is bizarre. Pope Francis is replacing theological truths with his own personal views and interpretations.

8 posted on 12/22/2013 2:03:04 PM PST by BlatherNaut
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To: piusv

Here are the words of John Paul II in the original:

John Paul II said something else

This blessing reaches its full meaning when Mary stands beneath the Cross of her Son (cf. Jn. 19:25). The Council says that this happened “not without a divine plan”: by “suffering deeply with her only-begotten Son and joining herself with her maternal spirit to his sacrifice, lovingly consenting to the immolation of the victim to whom she had given birth,” in this way Mary “faithfully preserved her union with her Son even to the Cross.”38 It is a union through faith- the same faith with which she had received the angel’s revelation at the Annunciation. At that moment she had also heard the words: “He will be great...and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there will be no end” (Lk. 1:32-33).

And now, standing at the foot of the Cross, Mary is the witness, humanly speaking, of the complete negation of these words. On that wood of the Cross her Son hangs in agony as one condemned. “He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows...he was despised, and we esteemed him not”: as one destroyed (cf. Is. 53:3- 5). How great, how heroic then is the obedience of faith shown by Mary in the face of God’s “unsearchable judgments”! How completely she “abandons herself to God” without reserve, offering the full assent of the intellect and the will”39 to him whose “ways are inscrutable” (cf. Rom. 11:33)! And how powerful too is the action of grace in her soul, how all-pervading is the influence of the Holy Spirit and of his light and power!

Through this faith Mary is perfectly united with Christ in his self- emptying. For “Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men”: precisely on Golgotha “humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross” (cf. Phil. 2:5-8). At the foot of the Cross Mary shares through faith in the shocking mystery of this self- emptying. This is perhaps the deepest “kenosis” of faith in human history. Through faith the Mother shares in the death of her Son, in his redeeming death; but in contrast with the faith of the disciples who fled, hers was far more enlightened. On Golgotha, Jesus through the Cross definitively confirmed that he was the “sign of contradiction” foretold by Simeon. At the same time, there were also fulfilled on Golgotha the words which Simeon had addressed to Mary: “and a sword will pierce through your own soul also.”

[ Redemptoris Mater, 18]


9 posted on 12/22/2013 2:05:22 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: BlatherNaut

Christ was also without sin and He said that God abandoned Him, right about that time.


10 posted on 12/22/2013 2:05:57 PM PST by annalex (fear them not)
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Comment #11 Removed by Moderator

To: annalex

That is not what he was doing. He was quoting the opening lines of Psalm 22. He is identifying himself with the Suffering Servant...aka the Messiah.


12 posted on 12/22/2013 2:13:22 PM PST by piusv
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To: piusv

LOL!

Where did this guy go to school? Honestly.


13 posted on 12/22/2013 2:14:05 PM PST by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: annalex

Wait, so it is okay for a pope to posit errors in a homily?


14 posted on 12/22/2013 2:14:54 PM PST by piusv
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To: piusv

Not good.


15 posted on 12/22/2013 2:17:34 PM PST by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: Arthur McGowan
The Cardinals elected the wrong man.

As an American, I am expert in this subject.

16 posted on 12/22/2013 2:18:37 PM PST by The_Media_never_lie (The media must be defeated any way it can be done!)
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To: annalex
Christ was also without sin and He said that God abandoned Him, right about that time.

Yes, but scripture tells us He asked God a question ("My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?"). He never called God a liar, nor could He. Pope Francis is ad-libbing scripture.

17 posted on 12/22/2013 2:18:53 PM PST by BlatherNaut
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To: Brian Kopp DPM

Ping!


18 posted on 12/22/2013 2:19:14 PM PST by piusv
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To: BlatherNaut

See post #12


19 posted on 12/22/2013 2:20:11 PM PST by piusv
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

precisely


20 posted on 12/22/2013 2:26:04 PM PST by Nifster
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To: BlatherNaut

Mary conceived without sin? No, she was not. She was human like all the rest of us.


21 posted on 12/22/2013 2:28:35 PM PST by Bulwyf
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To: piusv

yup.


22 posted on 12/22/2013 2:30:32 PM PST by BlatherNaut
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To: Bulwyf
Mary conceived without sin? No, she was not. She was human like all the rest of us.

Catholic Church teaching - The Dogma of the Immaculate Conception.

23 posted on 12/22/2013 2:33:32 PM PST by BlatherNaut
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To: piusv; metmom

The Mary the greater than Christ Worshippers won’t be happy


24 posted on 12/22/2013 2:36:37 PM PST by GeronL (Extra Large Cheesy Over-Stuffed Hobbit)
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To: piusv
Or is he identifying Mary as a suffering servant?

Remember that David would write a lament and then usually finish up a psalm with a positive prayer.

Psalms 22


1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Why art thou so far from helping me, from the words of my groaning?

2 O my God, I cry by day, but thou dost not answer; and by night, but find no rest.

3 Yet thou art holy, enthroned on the praises of Israel.

4 In thee our fathers trusted; they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.

5 To thee they cried, and were saved; in thee they trusted, and were not disappointed.

6 But I am a worm, and no man; scorned by men, and despised by the people.

7 All who see me mock at me, they make mouths at me, they wag their heads;

8 "He committed his cause to the LORD; let him deliver him, let him rescue him, for he delights in him!"

9 Yet thou art he who took me from the womb; thou didst keep me safe upon my mother's breasts.

10 Upon thee was I cast from my birth, and since my mother bore me thou hast been my God.

11 Be not far from me, for trouble is near and there is none to help.

12 Many bulls encompass me, strong bulls of Bashan surround me;

13 they open wide their mouths at me, like a ravening and roaring lion.

14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint; my heart is like wax, it is melted within my breast;

15 my strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue cleaves to my jaws; thou dost lay me in the dust of death.

16 Yea, dogs are round about me; a company of evildoers encircle me; they have pierced my hands and feet --

17 I can count all my bones -- they stare and gloat over me;

18 they divide my garments among them, and for my raiment they cast lots.

19 But thou, O LORD, be not far off! O thou my help, hasten to my aid!

20 Deliver my soul from the sword, my life from the power of the dog!

21 Save me from the mouth of the lion, my afflicted soul from the horns of the wild oxen! 22 I will tell of thy name to my brethren; in the midst of the congregation I will praise thee:

23 You who fear the LORD, praise him! all you sons of Jacob, glorify him, and stand in awe of him, all you sons of Israel!

24 For he has not despised or abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; and he has not hid his face from him, but has heard, when he cried to him.

25 From thee comes my praise in the great congregation; my vows I will pay before those who fear him.

26 The afflicted shall eat and be satisfied; those who seek him shall praise the LORD! May your hearts live for ever!

27 All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to the LORD; and all the families of the nations shall worship before him.

28 For dominion belongs to the LORD, and he rules over the nations.

29 Yea, to him shall all the proud of the earth bow down; before him shall bow all who go down to the dust, and he who cannot keep himself alive.

30 Posterity shall serve him; men shall tell of the Lord to the coming generation,

31 and proclaim his deliverance to a people yet unborn, that he has wrought it.


25 posted on 12/22/2013 2:36:50 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: BlatherNaut

Ahh, so dogma over the Bible?


26 posted on 12/22/2013 2:41:16 PM PST by Bulwyf
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To: Bulwyf
Ahh, so dogma over the Bible?

No. They are harmonious.

27 posted on 12/22/2013 2:50:20 PM PST by BlatherNaut
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To: piusv; Salvation; NYer; annalex; BlatherNaut

Creating a new tempest in that well used teapot.

According to the article, Pope Francis said “The Blessed Mother was human! And perhaps she would have wanted to say, ‘lies! I have been cheated!’.”

Key words Mary “was human.” To me Pope Francis is speculating on what a very human Mary’s personal and never spoken thoughts to seeing her son crucified may have been. He is not claiming she said anything or stating that she actually thought it. He is bring Mary to us as a fellow human being; not a demi/semi-goddess or marble saint, but a mother going through the shock of seeing her son being executed.

Yep, he should have not said it as it becomes another ‘let’s whip Frankie’ point.


28 posted on 12/22/2013 2:51:14 PM PST by GreyFriar (Spearhead - 3rd Armored Division 75-78 & 83-87)
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To: BlatherNaut

No they are not, you can’t be a true Roman Catholic and Christian at the same time they’re not the same thing.


29 posted on 12/22/2013 2:52:54 PM PST by Bulwyf
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To: Arthur McGowan

Unfortunately, I think not.

IMHO, Francis is fulfilling a prophecy written by a far greater power.

We are in fact, living in “interesting times.”

This whole thing is convoluted. Benedict XVI has NEVER fully explained his abdication, first time in Papal history as I recall.

And a JESUIT Pope?

Yes indeedy, we are living in interesting times.


30 posted on 12/22/2013 3:05:34 PM PST by ConradofMontferrat ( According to mudslimz, my handle is a HATE CRIME. And I HOPE they don't like it.)
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To: Arthur McGowan
The Cardinals elected the wrong man. He’s a loose cannon.

If Francis is "Peter the Roman"
then he is the right man
for a time such as this.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
31 posted on 12/22/2013 3:13:20 PM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your teaching is my delight.)
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To: GeronL
The pope speculating about Mary.

This is going to make some heads explode.


32 posted on 12/22/2013 3:13:57 PM PST by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith....)
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To: annalex

Did the Holy Father say anything more than she was tempted? The devil tempted Jesus,in the Wilderness and I infer later on the cross? Why not Mary, who was ONLY human.


33 posted on 12/22/2013 3:17:09 PM PST by RobbyS (quotes)
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To: BlatherNaut

It is part of one of David’s psalms that ended in a triumphant cry of trust in God. But the Bible never quoted the end of the psalm.

No time right now to look up Psalm number.


34 posted on 12/22/2013 3:18:36 PM PST by 353FMG
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To: metmom
reactions will be mixed


35 posted on 12/22/2013 3:20:59 PM PST by GeronL (Extra Large Cheesy Over-Stuffed Hobbit)
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To: RobbyS

Because the Bible is all about inferring.

Mary was a mortal human, that is probably something some people cannot handle.


36 posted on 12/22/2013 3:22:08 PM PST by GeronL (Extra Large Cheesy Over-Stuffed Hobbit)
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To: GreyFriar; piusv; Salvation; annalex; BlatherNaut; metmom
Creating a new tempest in that well used teapot.

Not necessarily. Consider the source of this post: Eponymous Flower blog. Here is how they describe themselves:

Purpose

This is a polemical Catholic Royalist blog. It will also attempt to provide a window onto various events, situations and personalities not generally or favorably presented to the purview of the general public in the English speaking world. It also hopes to be a bridge for those who wish to cross over, unite and fight for the truth.

Consider, as well, the freeper piusv only posted the introduction to the post and not the entire text.

The pope's homilies are constructed in Spanish, translated into Italian for delivery and then translated (i.e. "interpreted") in English by anyone and everyone. My suggestion is that anyone who is seriously interested in what the pope has to say, should go to the source, not the interpretation or translations.

37 posted on 12/22/2013 3:32:20 PM PST by NYer ("The wise man is the one who can save his soul. - St. Nimatullah Al-Hardini)
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To: NYer

Just.....

wow......


38 posted on 12/22/2013 3:33:37 PM PST by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith....)
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To: GreyFriar

First of all, nobody wants to “whip Frankie”. The problem is that time and time again, the Pope says controversial and/or peculiar things that the Vatican has to “clarify”. In this case, he’s just making up things Mary might have thought. Attributing things to Mary that are concocted in his imagination rather than taken from scripture and in the process implying that she might have viewed God as a liar is naturally controversial. He could just as easily have speculated that she was hungry and wishing for a sandwich, which would have been similarly pointless.


39 posted on 12/22/2013 3:34:14 PM PST by BlatherNaut
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To: NYer

Funny how the last several popes didn’t have this “translation” problem.


40 posted on 12/22/2013 3:37:53 PM PST by BlatherNaut
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To: BlatherNaut
Mary was conceived without sin, and thus would be incapable of wanting to call God a liar or a cheat. For a Pope to voice such speculations regarding the Mother of God is bizarre. Pope Francis is replacing theological truths with his own personal views and interpretations.

Well that's not very fair to this pope...A long time ago some nut gets up and claims Mary is sinless with no more evidence that Francis has with his statements...You ought to give Francis the benefit of the doubt...

41 posted on 12/22/2013 3:44:57 PM PST by Iscool
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To: NYer; GreyFriar; piusv; Salvation; annalex; BlatherNaut; GeronL

Once or twice is one thing.

This is like a lifestyle for him.

Houston, we have a problem. (Or rather YOU all have a problem)


42 posted on 12/22/2013 3:46:35 PM PST by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith....)
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To: BlatherNaut

Personally I think the entire anti-Christian left wants to
“whip Frankie” for everything he believes and says. that was my semi-sarcastic close to my post.


43 posted on 12/22/2013 3:48:32 PM PST by GreyFriar (Spearhead - 3rd Armored Division 75-78 & 83-87)
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To: NYer

Um,I posted an excerpt and clicked that it was an excerpt. I rarely post a full article/link. I figured you’re all capable of click on the link to get the whole article. Am I wrong about that?

The only thing I should have done was posted that it was a Catholic/SSPX/SV Caucus thread. I don’t normally mind the Protestant input but the discussion is going in too many directions.


44 posted on 12/22/2013 3:56:57 PM PST by piusv
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To: Bulwyf
Mary conceived without sin? No, she was not. She was human like all the rest of us.

Sin never made anyone human. Adam and Eve were created without sin -- did they have to sin to become human? God forbid! Jesus was perfectly human and perfectly divine, yet never sinned. Think about your objection, because it leads to some awful conclusions.

45 posted on 12/22/2013 4:00:08 PM PST by Campion ("Social justice" begins in the womb)
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To: BlatherNaut

The main issue is that what he is insinuating is that the Immaculate Conception (Mary) isn’t really the Immaculate Conception. The Immaculate Conception doesn’t sin, doesn’t doubt God and doesn’t think about doubting God.

We all know that the Protestants on this board don’t agree with the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception (I’m not even interested in trying to convince them to in this thread), but Catholics are supposed to and the Pope certainly shouldn’t be suggesting anything that would lead others to believe that that dogma just isn’t quite right.

‘Cuz Mary might have thought God was a liar at the foot of the Cross.

Um,wut????

And yes the usual hear no evil, see no evil Catholics will continue to ignore, defend make up excuses, etc etc before they stop and actually think about what Francis just said!


46 posted on 12/22/2013 4:03:03 PM PST by piusv
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To: Bulwyf

Catholics are Christians. In fact, the first Christians. Where are you getting this idea that Catholics are not Christians? A pamphlet? A wayward preacher?


47 posted on 12/22/2013 4:04:28 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: BlatherNaut

“Mary was conceived without sin”

Then she had no need for a Savior.


48 posted on 12/22/2013 4:05:41 PM PST by ctdonath2 (Making good people helpless doesn't make bad people harmless.)
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To: NYer

Amen to your suggestions.


49 posted on 12/22/2013 4:06:35 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation
Or is he identifying Mary as a suffering servant?

Is this your own idea?

50 posted on 12/22/2013 4:06:58 PM PST by piusv
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