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Christianity 101: The Laying on of Hands
Today | Douglaskc

Posted on 12/22/2013 3:01:31 PM PST by DouglasKC

Christianity 101: The Laying on of Hands

For Christians the book of Hebrews is essential for analyzing what the early church believed and taught as doctrine. In instructing the church Paul (the likely author) chastised them for now growing in the faith.

In Hebrews 6:1 Paul reminded them of the "principles of the doctrine of Christ". In other words, those things which Christ said should be taught to Christians. These are foundational principles:

Hbr 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Hbr 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

There are listed several foundational doctrines that Christ said should be taught as HIS doctrine. These are:

1. Repentence from dead works.
2. Faith toward God.
3. Baptisms
4. Laying on of hands
5. Resurrection of the dead.
6. Eternal judgment.

These things are Christianity 101 as Christ taught it. As Christ expected it to be taught by his followers.

Let's look at number 4, laying on of hands. What is it?

Scripture has numerous examples of laying on of hands. In general there are 3 purposes as seen in scripture:

1. To impart the holy spirit to a fellow believer in Christ.
2. To heal.
3. To ordain to a Godly office.

Let's look at number 1 by examining a scripture in Acts 8:

Act 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
Act 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
Act 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Act 8:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

In his example we see that there were a number of believers that had been baptized in the name of Jesus yet did not have the holy spirit of God. After the disciples of Christ lay hands on them they received the holy spirit.

This was recognized by not only true believers, but those who wished to exploit true believers:

Act 8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
Act 8:19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

Naturally this was denied Simon.

It's important to note that this was approximately 3 to 5 years after the death of Christ.

Likewise when Paul was converted he had hands laid on him to receive the holy spirit:

Acts 9:17 And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus,fn who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.”

Paul took this teaching and applied it in his ministry. In Acts 19, Paul came upon some disciples of Christ:

Act 19:1 And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples
Act 19:2 he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” So they said to him, “We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.”

So these disciples not only did not have the holy spirit, they didn't even know about it!

Act 19:3 And he said to them, “Into what then were you baptized?” So they said, “Into John’s baptism.”
Act 19:4 Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”

Paul finds out that they were not baptized in the name of Christ Jesus...

Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.

Again, hands are laid on disciples and they receive the holy spirit.

In his 2nd letter to Timothy Paul reminds Timothy how he got the holy spirit and not to neglect it:

2Ti 1:6 Therefore I remind you to stir up the gift of God which is in you through the laying on of my hands.
2Ti 1:7 For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.

In all the new testament there are only two instances in which the holy spirit was not given by the laying on of hands.

The first is in Acts 2 when the holy spirit was given to the first jewish Christians:

Act 2:1 When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accordfn in one place.
Act 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting.
Act 2:3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them.
Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

The second instance is Acts 10, when the first gentiles Christians came into the church of God:

Act 10:44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.
Act 10:45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered,
Act 10:47 “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?

Note Peter's words: These first gentile Christians, the first gentile disciples, received the holy spirit just as the first jewish Christians did. In other words, this method of the holy spirit coming on was limited to these two groups.

In scripture wherever it is mentioned how the holy spirit is given to men it is through the laying on of hands.

This is not a popular concept today and in fact it is often viciously attacked. The reasons for this can only be guessed at but tradition certainly plays a large part.

But it is incorrect to say it is not Christian nor biblical because as scripture points out it is a foundational belief of Christianity.


TOPICS: General Discusssion; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: christ; hands
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1 posted on 12/22/2013 3:01:31 PM PST by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAipzk_vkpI

Reminds of scene from this video of the Terminator meeting Jesus. The Terminator keeps killing Judas and Jesus keeps doing the laying on of hands and reviving him.


2 posted on 12/22/2013 3:08:26 PM PST by Jack Hydrazine (Pubbies = national collectivists; Dems = international collectivists; me = independent conservative)
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To: Jack Hydrazine

lol...I’ll try to watch it later....


3 posted on 12/22/2013 3:10:12 PM PST by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC

Oh darn. You used Scripture.

Prepare for incoming.


4 posted on 12/22/2013 3:15:14 PM PST by F15Eagle (1Jn4:15;5:4-5,11-13;Mt27:50-54;Mk15:33-34;Jn3:17-18,6:69,11:25,14:6,20:31;Ro10:8-11;1Tm2:5-6;Ti3:4-7)
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To: F15Eagle
Oh darn. You used Scripture. Prepare for incoming

Ready...hopefully someone doesn't try to convince me that my lying eyes are at fault... :-)

5 posted on 12/22/2013 3:27:45 PM PST by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC; All

For some context, this is the premise behind the UCG-cult’s claim to fame (DouglasKC is a member), since they believe that they alone are the true church of God on Earth, and therefore one must be baptized and receive the Holy Spirit from them, otherwise you don’t get to join the ‘God family’ along with them.

But to address the claims of this article:

“Scripture has numerous examples of laying on of hands. In general there are 3 purposes as seen in scripture:

1. To impart the holy spirit to a fellow believer in Christ.
2. To heal.
3. To ordain to a Godly office.”

There is no mandate in scripture that requires the laying on of hands to receive the Spirit, who is the third person of the Trinity (which the UCG denies). The Spirit is specifically described as sovereign, moving where He wills and how He pleases:

Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Salvation is by grace alone, which itself is an event initiated by the Holy Spirit, who comes upon a man and informs Him that Jesus is the Christ.

1Co_12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Laying on of hands is not necessary for healing. For example, Christ here heals without even being in the same location as the other individual:

“The nobleman saith unto him, Sir, come down ere my child die. Jesus saith unto him, Go thy way; thy son liveth. And the man believed the word that Jesus had spoken unto him, and he went his way. And as he was now going down, his servants met him, and told him, saying, Thy son liveth. Then enquired he of them the hour when he began to amend. And they said unto him, Yesterday at the seventh hour the fever left him. So the father knew that it was at the same hour, in the which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house.”
(Joh 4:49-53)

In the case of the infilling of the Spirit, Cornelius and his family are filled with the Spirit prior to having any one place hands on them, or water baptism, but only at the words of the Apostles:

“While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.”
(Act 10:44-48)

Similarly, the Thief is saved prior to Baptism, and without anyone laying hands on him. The Spirit is promised to all those who confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, and even that confession is itself the work of the Spirit on the soul of the man:

“And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.”
(Joh 3:14-15)

“no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.” (Joh 6:65)

While the Apostles did lay hands on men, these Baptisms of the Spirit were immediatelly followed up with signs and wonders of a very visible nature, which do not occur whenever the UCG lays hands on people. Nor were they done by any virtue in their own hands, but according to the purpose of God to demonstrate the truth and power of Christianity.


6 posted on 12/22/2013 3:28:45 PM PST by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: All

For more information on the UCG in general, however:

“Founder: It was founded “by Bob Dick and David Hulme, in Arcadia, CA;”1 offshoot of Herbert W. Armstrong and was formed in May of 1995.

Headquarters: Milford, Ohio

Membership: unknown

Origins: The United Church of God is an offshoot of the Worldwide Church of God. They claim to trace their origins back to the “Church that Jesus founded in the early first century.”2 How this is done is not explained.

Practices: Worship on Saturday

Analysis: The United Church of God is a non-Christian cult that denies the Trinity, the true divinity of Christ, and requires both baptism and obedience to the commandments to be saved. It teaches that there is a “God family” of which we can become members through keeping the Law. Jesus is one of two divine beings, the Father being the other. The Holy Spirit is a force, a power, and is not the 3rd person of the Trinity, and it is received only through the laying on of hands by their church members. It also teaches that their members are obligated to keep the Sabbath and must observe seven festivals. They cannot eat unclean meat. This is a false religious system that teaches a false God, false Christ, and false gospel. Stay away from it.

Other Teachings:

They teach that the wicked, or unsaved, are not alive in hell but are annihilated. Baptism is by immersion. The Bible is inspired and inerrant. They are pre-millennial and maintain that Satan is a fallen, evil angel. Christians are not to go to war and should refuse being drafted.

Quotes

God: God consists of two different beings, Father and Son, in a ‘family.’
“...the one God is a family, presently consisting of God the Father and God the Son, Jesus Christ. And God is in the process of adding to the divine family multitudes of others - eventually all human beings who are willing and who faithfully choose to follow God’s way...the Father and Jesus Christ are both God...The real message in these pronouncements is that there is no other God apart from the true God’that is, outside the God family now consisting of two divine Beings, the Father and the Son. In short, the God family alone is God...the true God means the one God family to which others will yet be added.”3
Holy Spirit: The UCOG denies the personhood of the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is God’s divine power. “...the Holy Spirit is the very nature, presence and expression of God’s power actively working in His servants...the very essence and life force through which the Father begets human beings as His spiritual children...The Holy Spirit is spoken of in many ways that demonstrate that it is not a divine person.”4
The Holy Spirit is received by the laying on of hands, after being water baptized by immersion.5
Jesus
“Jesus is one of two divine beings”6
Jesus is sinless, the creator of all humanity, who was raised from the dead, (physical resurrection is not explained).
Jesus will return
Law: “The Ten Commandments are the 10 points of God’s law of love. We believe that breaking any one point of the law brings upon a person the penalty of sin. We believe that this fundamental spiritual law reveals the only way to true life and the only possible way of happiness, peace and joy.”7
Man
Man is fallen but can become “partakers of the divine nature.” This means that they can be added to the God Family.
After death, you cease to exist but are resurrected for judgment. “The soul ( nephesh ) is not immortal, because it dies...what happens to the spiritual essence that separates man from animal? Does it continue as a conscious, immortal soul independent of the physical body? Certainly not!”8
“We believe that at the return of Jesus Christ a resurrection to spirit life will take place for all who have been God’s faithful servants.”9
Sabbath: Saturday, the seventh day of the week, is the proper day to worship God.
Salvation - Salvation is through Jesus only, but you must be baptized to be saved. Salvation can be lost.
You must acknowledge your sin, that your sin condemns you, and that you need forgiveness in Jesus. The person must repent and be baptized. You “...must forsake the sinful ways that brought the death penalty upon us and made Jesus’ sacrifice necessary in the first place. We must undergo a life-transforming change of heart and direction, a process the Bible calls repentance....When you are baptized, God forgives your past sins and clears your record...After our baptism, Christ’s ministers are to place their hands on us and pray for the gift of God’s Spirit for us. It is at this point that God gives His Spirit to a repentant, baptized person.”10
“After baptism and our receiving of God’s Spirit, we are justified. That is, we become righteous in God’s sight”11
“If we stumble and sin after baptism, we must ask God’s forgiveness and return to Him so that our state of forgiveness is not lost by our return to our old sinful way of life...If a Christian at some time during his life, after committing to serve God, turns away and renounces Jesus and God’s way in word or action, he will lose his salvation.”12

The saved don’t go to heaven but will live on earth with Jesus.

“God will offer salvation all who have lived, including those of non-Christian religions, in a time described in Revelation 22: 5, 11-13 . This is a period known as the Great White Throne Judgment when God will offer salvation, through Christ, to those denied such opportunity in their life.”13
“We believe God’s purpose for mankind is to prepare those whom He calls, and who elect through a life of overcoming sin, developing righteous character and growing in grace and knowledge, to possess God’s Kingdom and become kings and priests reigning with Christ at His return.”14
“Such individuals are justified, pardoned from the penalty of sin and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, which literally abides within them and supplies the divine love that alone can fulfill the law and produce righteousness.”15

Footnotes at link:

http://carm.org/ucog

From the Catholic EWTN list of Cults:

“Worldwide Church of God - Leader: Hurbert W. Armstrong
. Jesus is a part of the godhead (God is a family) and men can become like Jesus and part of the God family - Sons of God. They do not believe in a closed godhead (TRINITY). The Holy Spirit is not considered a person, but the Father and the Son work through it. (Derivate cult - International Church of God. Leader: Son of Herbert, George, was disowned by his father and started this group that believes the same, but claims that the Worldwide Church lost its authority when Herbert divorced his wife.)”

https://www.ewtn.com/library/NEWAGE/CULTCAT.TXT

From my copy of Walter Martin’s “Kingdom of the Cults”:

“Most of the splinter cults of Armstrongism retain the name ‘Church of God’ somewhere in their title. They mix legalism, including strict Sabbatarianism, with a variety of Armstrong’s leading doctrinces. Two other noteworthy groups among these are the Global Church of God, located in San Diego, California, and the United Church of God in Arcadia, California. The former has a television following on two superstations covering much of the United States, while the latter publishes The Good News magazine and covers thirty television stations with programming.” (Walter Martin, The Kingdom of the Cults, Ed. Hank Hanegraaff. Pg. 472)


7 posted on 12/22/2013 3:30:21 PM PST by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
lol..I knew it!

But at LEAST you are attempting to discuss though it is chock full of insults. Why don't we attempt a reasonable discussion?

There is no mandate in scripture that requires the laying on of hands to receive the Spirit,

Oh, yes, only that Christ taught it as a basic foundation of Christianity and that all the disciples practiced it. Other than that not a word.

Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Those verse talk about the nature of the spirit...it's paranormal...and not how it comes to indwell in believers.

“While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

Addressed in the article.

Nice try, but your response is based on many suppositions and traditional beliefs.

8 posted on 12/22/2013 3:38:27 PM PST by DouglasKC
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
lol...I knew it again...let's try actually trying to win an a debate based on scripture instead of trying to demonize the person who posted scripture.

Do you have anything positive to offer?

9 posted on 12/22/2013 3:40:33 PM PST by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC

Some of the premises here are in error.


10 posted on 12/22/2013 3:43:44 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation
Some of the premises here are in error.

Such as?

11 posted on 12/22/2013 3:44:37 PM PST by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC

~~~Ready...hopefully someone doesn’t try to convince me that my lying eyes are at fault... :-)~~~

Oh I’ve been through that several times in life.


12 posted on 12/22/2013 3:46:51 PM PST by F15Eagle (1Jn4:15;5:4-5,11-13;Mt27:50-54;Mk15:33-34;Jn3:17-18,6:69,11:25,14:6,20:31;Ro10:8-11;1Tm2:5-6;Ti3:4-7)
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To: DouglasKC; All

“Oh, yes, only that Christ taught it as a basic foundation of Christianity”


No He didn’t. That’s your claim, upon finding many verses wherein hands were laid upon, but none of which deny the promise that salvation is offered to all those who believe.

There are no verses that say “You must receive the Holy Spirit through the laying on of hands from the UCG’s ministers.” There are many verses which declare that salvation is for whoever believes, though.

“Those verse talk about the nature of the spirit...it’s paranormal...and not how it comes to indwell in believers.”


“Paranormal” is an interesting word, but Christ says that the Spirit “blows where He listeth,” that is, where He wants. This is an echo of the first chapter in John as well:

Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

If regeneration and the infilling of the Spirit requires the laying on of hands, then it is “by the will of the flesh, and the will of man.” And, therefore, not by the “will of God,” or the “listing” of the Spirit.

“Addressed in the article.”


Not really, since the scripture neither declares that it is necessary to receive the Spirit by the laying on of hands, nor does it say that it was an exception to the rule, then all you’re doing is reading your own invention into the text to support another invention.

You would also need to find a way to save the Thief on the cross without the laying on of hands, and any Christian who does not have access to an Apostle. You also didn’t address the fact that conversion, itself, the giving of faith, is the act of the Holy Spirit. And yet, this is done without the laying on of hands.

“Nice try, but your response is based on many suppositions and traditional beliefs.”


Your supposition is that the Holy Spirit must be given by those with the authority to do so, which takes the authority away from God, and gives it to the members of your church.

All I did was quote scripture.


13 posted on 12/22/2013 3:50:57 PM PST by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: F15Eagle

Are you a member of the UCG too?


14 posted on 12/22/2013 3:51:40 PM PST by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
Likewise some similarities and some differences --

Laying on of hands

Laying on of hands

Question from Brian Vogrinc on 3/18/2002:

What can you tell me about the idea of laying on of hands. Is it biblical? Can Catholic lay people do it to other lay people? What does it mean? Is it Catholic in tradition or does it come from more from a Penecostal or Evangelical type tradition?

Answer by Catholic Answers on 3/27/2002:

The laying on of hands is a sign used in a number of the sacraments, most particularly in ordination. It has been used in this manner since the first century and signifies the invoking of God's blessing on the person on whom hands are laid.

Catholic lay people cannot administer any of the sacraments that involve the laying on of hands, therefore they cannot do it sacramentally.

Some Catholics do lay hands on others while praying for healing, though this is not a sacrament and must not be confused with one. The latter practice has been especially popularized through the Pentecostal movement.

James Akin
Catholic Answers

15 posted on 12/22/2013 4:01:45 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: DouglasKC
When I lived in Alaska, we went to a small rural church; most of the congregation had someone of family in the service.

When one of our members was called up, he/she would stand in the middle of the sanctuary. The pastor and all those close enough would lay their hands upon them. All of us out of reach would lay hands upon those in front of us, facing the service member, making a radiating chain outward encompassing all of us in the room.

A prayer for their safety, speedy return and that they might find opportunities to do God's work while away was then given.

16 posted on 12/22/2013 4:30:20 PM PST by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
No He didn’t. That’s your claim, upon finding many verses wherein hands were laid upon, but none of which deny the promise that salvation is offered to all those who believe.

No, that's the claim of Jesus and Paul:

Hbr 6:1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
Hbr 6:2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

I'll just edit out your insults to keep the flow better.

If regeneration and the infilling of the Spirit requires the laying on of hands, then it is “by the will of the flesh, and the will of man.” And, therefore, not by the “will of God,” or the “listing” of the Spirit.

Well since that's what it says in scripture and what Jesus taught as doctrine and what Paul taught in doctrine and what was practiced by the disciples then maybe you're misunderstanding something.

You would also need to find a way to save the Thief on the cross without the laying on of hands, and any Christian who does not have access to an Apostle.

Well since that's what it says in scripture and what Jesus taught as doctrine and what Paul taught in doctrine and what was practiced by the disciples then maybe you're misunderstanding something about the thief on the cross. For example does it say he went to heaven or was saved?

17 posted on 12/22/2013 5:07:10 PM PST by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC

18 posted on 12/22/2013 5:08:44 PM PST by narses (... unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.)
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To: Salvation
It has been used in this manner since the first century and signifies the invoking of God's blessing on the person on whom hands are laid.

Yes it has. It's shame that many protestant churches have discontinued this biblical practice.

19 posted on 12/22/2013 5:09:15 PM PST by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC

“No, that’s the claim of Jesus and Paul:”


No, it really isn’t the claim of either Jesus or Paul. There is no scripture that says that the Holy Spirit must be given by the “laying on of hands.” That’s just your assumption, reading the “laying on of hands” and connecting it with the claims of your non-Trinitarian church.

“Well since that’s what it says in scripture and what Jesus taught as doctrine and what Paul taught in doctrine”


But the scripture doesn’t say that. Your argument is essentially to take every instance of the “laying on of hands,” and to conclude from thence that it must be required to receive the Spirit, even though not every instance actually supports your views. You do not actually explain all of the scripture, such as, 1) the offering of salvation to any who believe, which is not compatible with your view. 2) The fact that not all those who received the Spirit or were saved had hands laid on them. 3) The fact that signs and wonders accompanied the giving of the Spirit in those days, which is no longer given in our day, and definitely not by the UCG. 4) That the Spirit is said to be sovereign in regeneration, moving as He “listeth” during Christ’s explanation to Nicodemus about the necessity of being born again. 5) The Prevenient action of the Holy Spirit prior to salvation, which is not accomplished through the laying on of hands.

“For example does it say he went to heaven or was saved?”


It says he went to paradise “this day” with Christ. Unless paradise is another word for hell, the Thief is in quite good hands.


20 posted on 12/22/2013 5:19:27 PM PST by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
No, it really isn’t the claim of either Jesus or Paul. There is no scripture that says that the Holy Spirit must be given by the “laying on of hands.” That’s just your assumption, reading the “laying on of hands”

Nah, that's the plain reading of the text and the practice of the 1st century church. That's the way it was done except for the two instances of the first gentile Christians and the first jewish Christians receiving his spirit. Unless you were one of those two small groups in scripture there was no other way specified by which the holy spirit is given. You're making assumptions that someone else MUST have gotten it a different way with no evidence whatsoever.

You do not actually explain all of the scripture, such as, 1) the offering of salvation to any who believe, which is not compatible with your view.

That changes nothing to the premise of salvation any who believes. But clearly scripture puts forth the need for obedience but let's not go down that rabbit hole again.

2) The fact that not all those who received the Spirit or were saved had hands laid on them. 3)

We'll disagree because scripture shows that receiving the spirit of God is not equivalent to being saved.

The fact that signs and wonders accompanied the giving of the Spirit in those days,

Signs and wonder were for the early church...to make a statement in world that knew nothing about Christ.

4) That the Spirit is said to be sovereign in regeneration, moving as He “listeth” during Christ’s explanation to Nicodemus about the necessity of being born again.

Don't disagree..without the spirit of God there is no regeneration.

5) The Prevenient action of the Holy Spirit prior to salvation, which is not accomplished through the laying on of hands.

That's true...God works with people before they become believers. This agency is described quite a bit in the old testament but it's a completely different aspect then having the indwelling spirit of the Lord.

It says he went to paradise “this day” with Christ. Unless paradise is another word for hell, the Thief is in quite good hands.

What is paradise?

21 posted on 12/22/2013 5:35:45 PM PST by DouglasKC
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To: Salvation; RichInOC; Prince of Space; JoeFromSidney; TNMountainMan; alphadog; infool7; ...
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22 posted on 12/22/2013 5:50:17 PM PST by narses (... unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.)
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To: DouglasKC; All

“You’re making assumptions that someone else MUST have gotten it a different way with no evidence whatsoever.”


I have presented evidence. Cornelius and his family, and the Thief on the cross. And, really, every believer, since the work of conversion is itself committed by the Holy Spirit.

“That changes nothing to the premise of salvation any who believes. But clearly scripture puts forth the need for obedience”


This merely places grace, which is by definition gratuitous, at the price of meriting it through obedience to certain church authorities. If grace is grace, it cannot be earned, but can only be received as the free gift of God.

Rom_4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Rom_11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

And it is by grace that we are saved, and not by works.

Eph_2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

If salvation requires obedience to the UCG in having their ministers place hands on you in order to receive salvation, then the promise is not to any who believe, nor is it by grace, nor is it by the will of God. It is by the will of men. It is to any who believes and becomes a member of your church, and obediently obeys all their laws. In which case, everyone else who believes, but is a member of any other church on Earth, is damned.

“We’ll disagree because scripture shows that receiving the spirit of God is not equivalent to being saved.”


Receiving the Spirit of God, in the sense that you argue, is regeneration. If we are not regenerated, then we are still old creatures and are under the law and sin, and cannot be saved, since Christ says “no man can see the Kingdom of heaven” unless they are born again. As you say here: “Don’t disagree..without the spirit of God there is no regeneration.”

“Signs and wonder were for the early church...to make a statement in world that knew nothing about Christ.”


So it can just as easily be said, since the laying on of hands was not necessary for every person to receive in order to receive the Spirit, such as Cornelius and his family, as has been seen before, that all these instances, which were followed by marvelous signs and wonders, were also for the outward showing of the power of God in His ministers.

The “third” heaven, that is, the highest heights beyond physical creation, where Paul was caught up to:

2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Compare:

2Co_12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

And again:

Rev_2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

It is the place of eternal bliss for all the righteous, as the Jews commonly use the term:

From Dr. Gill’s Commentary, referencing Nishma Chayim, par. 1. c. 10. fol. 25. 2. &c.:

“It was usual with the Jews to call heaven “the garden of Eden”, or paradise; and which they (n) sometimes speak of as upper and lower; the lower they suppose the souls of men are introduced into, immediately upon their dissolution; where they stay a while, and then go up to the upper paradise, the world of souls, where Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are.”


23 posted on 12/22/2013 5:59:30 PM PST by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: DouglasKC; All

Oops, I forgot to quote “What is paradise?” Before I gave the answer “heaven,” using Paul as my prooftext.


24 posted on 12/22/2013 6:02:21 PM PST by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Salvation

An excellent answer from the Catholic perspective. Thank you.

If we are Christian we are called to follow Christ and love one another anything that distracts us from spreading this message is a distraction from Satan.


25 posted on 12/22/2013 6:58:34 PM PST by longfellowsmuse (last of the living nomads)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
I have presented evidence. Cornelius and his family, and the Thief on the cross.

Scripture does not say that the thief on the cross received the holy spirit. Cornelius and his family were the first gentile converts and received the spirit as the first Jewish converts did. These two special cases were in essence God making a public statement.

I agree we're not going to agree on this. Scripture shows, as outlined in the original post, the only way that the spirit is given is through the requests of another believer through the laying on of hands.

The doctrine of laying on of hands is listed in scripture as a foundation of the faith.

You postulate that there is another way in which the spirit is given. I understand that and there could be. It's not evident in scripture but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. But there is nothing "wrong" with following the scriptural precedent and practices of the early church.

26 posted on 12/23/2013 10:19:58 AM PST by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC

“Scripture does not say that the thief on the cross received the holy spirit. Cornelius and his family were the first gentile converts and received the spirit as the first Jewish converts did. These two special cases were in essence God making a public statement.”


Yet Christ said to the Thief, in response to his faith, “This day thou shalt be with me in paradise.” And, again, from John 3: “Unless one is born again, He cannot see the kingdom of God,” which is the work of the Holy Spirit who blows where He “listeth.”

In other words, the two major prerequisites that your cult enjoins on believers, “whether knowingly or unknowingly”, had absolutely no bearing on either the Thief or on Cornelius.

From the United Church of Beelzebub’s website:

“Jesus gave another condition for God’s gift of eternal life in Mark 16:16: “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.” Water baptism—by full immersion—is a symbolic act representing the death of our old self and the beginning of a new life of serving God and striving to avoid sin (Romans 6:1-23).
Baptism is also followed by the laying on of hands by Christ’s ministry, which allows us to receive God’s Holy Spirit and truly belong to Him (Acts 8:17; Romans 8:9). Unless we surrender our lives to God through baptism and the laying on of hands to receive His Spirit as instructed, we fail to meet—whether knowingly or unknowingly—His prerequisites for receiving His gift of salvation.”

http://www.ucg.org/booklet/you-can-have-living-faith/belief-all-thats-required-salvation/

So now let’s add a third example. The Eunuch who was baptized by Philip, but did NOT receive the laying on of hands:

“And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.”
(Act 8:36-39)

If the laying on of hands is the second work that is necessary for conversion, why was Philip caught away by the Spirit before he could finish “converting,” as your religion puts it, the Ethiopian Eunuch? Why leave a Christian believer WITHOUT the Holy Spirit, and in a state of incompleteness which, “whether he is aware or unaware,” he is liable for?

So let’s do the math: Cornelius and his family, the Jews, the Thief, and the Ethiopian Eunuch, did not follow your prescribed rule, and yet went off “rejoicing” on their way. And your response will be.... “These are just exceptions for my made up rule, so that’s that!”?

So what is the result of this math? = The UCG is full of it.

“I agree we’re not going to agree on this.”


Well of course we’re not going to agree on it. You’re a member of a creepy religious cult which denies the trinity, asserts that the Son and the Father are two divine beings, the Holy Spirit is a mere “force” which your church has a monopoly on, and that human kind can join the Godhead as part of the “God Family.” You also teach that I am not a Christian, because I have never been baptized by your church or received the laying on of hands.

Why, exactly, would I ever agree with any of that rubbish? I don’t even consider the UCG to actually be a Christian religion. Even the Cthulhu cult is more respectable, since at least they don’t teach falsehoods about Jesus Christ!

” It’s not evident in scripture “


What’s not actually evident in the scripture is any phrase which says “The laying on of hands is necessary to receive the Holy Spirit.”

What is evident from the scripture is: “The laying on of hands is not necessary for the receiving of the Holy Spirit and salvation.”

“But there is nothing “wrong” with following the scriptural precedent and practices of the early church.”


But of course you do not follow the early church precedent and practices. The early church did not keep Old Testament festivals, as yours do, or any dietary laws, as yours do, or deny that salvation is by grace, as yours do, nor did they deny the Trinity. On top of that, on those occasions where the Apostles laid their hands on anyone, they received spiritual gifts.

Do any of your ministers impart the gift of tongues, prophecy, and other miracle workings, in the people they touch? If so, can we see a picture of one of your filthy ministers touching someone, with the Spirit coming upon them visibly with fire and power and a shaking of the entire building? If not, what worth do your crummy ministers have, if they pretend to impart the Holy Spirit with their touch, yet can produce none of the accompanying signs, nor transfer any spiritual gifts, that were ALWAYS present when the Apostles did it?


27 posted on 12/23/2013 2:41:07 PM PST by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

lol...wow...you’re a peach today. Love you so much!


28 posted on 12/23/2013 3:32:22 PM PST by DouglasKC
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

You’re on time out until you learn to play well with others....okay?


29 posted on 12/23/2013 3:35:21 PM PST by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC; narses

30 posted on 12/23/2013 3:42:08 PM PST by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
“And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.” (Act 8:36-39)

BTW...on this obviously Philip was touching him during the baptism so Philip did have his hands on him. Scripture doesn't say explicitly but one can assume that if the eunuch received Gods' spirit it happened then. If not then the eunuch may have hands laid on him later as we saw in other instances.

31 posted on 12/23/2013 3:43:16 PM PST by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC

Bookmark


32 posted on 12/23/2013 3:51:37 PM PST by GOP Poet
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To: DouglasKC; All

“BTW...on this obviously Philip was touching him during the baptism so Philip did have his hands on him. Scripture doesn’t say explicitly but one can assume that if the eunuch received Gods’ spirit it happened then. If not then the eunuch may have hands laid on him later as we saw in other instances.”


LOL. Quite absurd. According to your cult, the laying on of hands is a separate event that is done with prayer for that specific purpose. The Apostles didn’t just go nudging people and giving them the Spirit, at least the way you see it, as otherwise the entire ritual would be handled during the dunking of the individual on all occasions, or, perhaps, even by accident if you just happened to bump into the Apostle Paul in the middle of the street. From the United Church of Beelzebub’s website again:

“The NEXT step [after Baptism] on our road to eternal life is to receive God’s Holy Spirit, which comes through “laying on of hands,” as described in Hebrews 6:2. From the Scriptures, we find that water baptism is FOLLOWED by the ceremony of laying on of hands, at which time we receive God’s Spirit... the Holy Spirit was not given until Peter and John prayed and laid their hands on them... We see that God’s Holy Spirit is given to us by the prayer of and laying on of hands by God’s ordained ministers, serving as His representatives.” (All Caps on specific words mine)

http://www.ucg.org/booklet/road-eternal-life/water-baptism-and-laying-hands/

Furthermore, EVERY time the Apostles laid hands on someone, visible and miraculous signs and wonders followed, which did not occur with the Eunuch at all, aside from maybe Philip himself disappearing into thin air, followed with the Eunuch going on his way “rejoicing” into his home country. Wait till he finds out he got jipped! He’ll be VERY sad to find out he’s still going to hell!


33 posted on 12/23/2013 4:01:59 PM PST by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
Hold on...I'm going to edit your response and remove the insults and the smarmy, sarcastic tone:

The next step [after Baptism] on our road to eternal life is to receive God’s Holy Spirit, which comes through “laying on of hands,” as described in Hebrews 6:2. From the Scriptures, we find that water baptism is followed by the ceremony of laying on of hands, at which time we receive God’s Spirit... the Holy Spirit was not given until Peter and John prayed and laid their hands on them... We see that God’s Holy Spirit is given to us by the prayer of and laying on of hands by God’s ordained ministers, serving as His representatives.

Well THAT'S much better..... :-).

Seriously dude if you want to anyone to take you seriously as a Christian you have to do this:

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control....

Or:p

Jam 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy.
Jam 3:18 Now the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.

Maybe it's just me or maybe it's your posting style but I don't see a whole lot of these types of qualities in you...

34 posted on 12/23/2013 4:17:09 PM PST by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC

“Seriously dude if you want to anyone to take you seriously as a Christian you have to do this:”


If you want anyone to take YOU seriously as a Christian, you should probably first become one:

“But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.”
(Gal 1:8-9)

Until then, I sure won’t be wishing the United Church of Beelzebub God Speed!

“Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.”
(2Jn 1:9-11)


35 posted on 12/23/2013 4:21:20 PM PST by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
“Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Hmmm...what was the doctrine of Christ again? Oh yeah!

Hbr 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Hbr 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

36 posted on 12/23/2013 4:30:41 PM PST by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC

Luk_11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

:)

I’ll go on “rejoicing” my way to heaven with the Thief, Cornelius, the Eunuch, and every other Christian who for 2,000 years has upheld the Trinity, salvation by grace alone, and the free gift of the Holy Spirit to all those who ask

You can trust in your filthy ministers, who, in their horrific arrogance, would rob all Christians of the Spirit! And would regard all of us as still dead in our sins, until we come to join the UCG, after nearly 2,000 years of worldwide Christian apostasy!


37 posted on 12/23/2013 4:43:51 PM PST by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
Hold on....I'l repost the doctrine of Christ again:

“Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Hbr 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Hbr 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Of course you're free to make up whatever doctrine you personally like and ignore the doctrine of Christ...but it's not wise.

38 posted on 12/23/2013 4:47:26 PM PST by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC; All

“Hold on....I’l repost the doctrine of Christ again:”


That’s the problem. You’re not actually posting the “doctrine” at all. Your “doctrine” is invisible, asserting that the laying on of hands is necessary as the second part of conversion for the road to “eternal life,” with no support from scripture that actually says that, which means that the Eunuch “rejoiced” for an incomplete conversion, the Thief is really in hell, and Cornelius cheated.

You’re free to keep repeating your absurd comments, but don’t expect it to actually convince anyone who isn’t inclined for the Cultic life.

From the United Church of Beelzebub’s website, answering the question “Is any one of the christian denominations more right than any other?”:

“Jesus Christ prophesied that there would be great religious diversity in those who claim to be Christian and represent Him. Matthew 24:4-5 says, “And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying [that] I am the Christ; and shall deceive many” (KJV). As for the existence of the Church that Jesus founded in A.D. 31 on the Day of Pentecost, Jesus Himself promised that this church would always exist. Specifically, He said, “I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it” (Matthew 16:18). Therefore, God’s Church does exist somewhere. The Bible explains that this church will accurately reflect the teachings and message of Jesus Christ... we suggest that you write for our free booklet, The Church Jesus Built, or read it online. This booklet addresses these important questions in much greater detail.”

http://www.ucg.org/bible-faq/why-are-there-so-many-denominations-christianity-how-can-i-know-which-one-right

Tee hee! Sucks if you’ve never heard of the UCG, eh? Ya didn’t know that you needed one of your ministers to save them! Tough luck!


39 posted on 12/23/2013 4:56:01 PM PST by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
You’re free to keep repeating your absurd comments, but don’t expect it to actually convince anyone who isn’t inclined for the Cultic life.

You mean the biblical life? Because again all's I'm doing is showing, from the bible, what the doctrine of Christ is. It's right there, after baptism, as a basic doctrine of Christ our Lord.

You can call me names all day but it still doesn't change what the bible says.

40 posted on 12/23/2013 5:12:55 PM PST by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC; Greetings_Puny_Humans

Doug I may have asked this before. How do you trace apostolic authority for the laying of hands to receive the Holy Spirit? I know you said any believer can do it, but that would require, excuse the term, believer “zero” to get the ball running in your church. Is there a tradition in your church dating back to when? Is it your view there was a parallel tradition coming from the early church unknown to history given the historic claims of Rome and the Eastern Orthodox churches?

To show I am not being snarky in asking this, I will admit Armstrong claimed a different unbroken apostolic tradition from Rome. I think he called it the underground church. I did not get this from a website but from his early programs which my friends mom used to watch.


41 posted on 12/23/2013 5:16:14 PM PST by redleghunter
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To: DouglasKC

“You can call me names all day but it still doesn’t change what the bible says.”


And you can repeat this until you turn blue, or hell swallows you up, but all your verse says is that “of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, etc”. Without actually saying ‘WHAT’ the doctrine is.

Meanwhile, the only mandate we actually receive in the Gospel for the purpose of salvation is “Believe,” and the only practices actually enjoined on all Christians universally (but not for salvation) are baptism, and the Lord’s Supper.

As Barnes observes:

“... on the question whether it [the laying on of hands] is to be regarded as of perpetual obligation in the Church, we are to remember:
(1) That the apostles were endowed with the power of imparting the influences of the Holy Spirit in a miraculous or extraordinary manner. It was with reference to such an imparting of the Holy Spirit that the expression is used in each of the cases where it occurs in the New Testament.
(2) the Saviour did not appoint the imposition of the hands of a “bishop” to be one of the rites or ceremonies to be observed perpetually in the Church. The injunction to be baptized and to observe his supper is positive, and is universal in its obligation. But there is no such command respecting the imposition of hands.”

You can copy and paste the same verse over and over again, but you cannot prove what the “doctrine” even is, nor provide any actual command to perform it, nor can you actually explain the objections already presented, but must imagine that Philip transferred the Spirit to the Ethiopian secretly, or else that the Spirit caught him away before he could finish “converting” the Ethiopian. You also cannot demonstrate that you, as happens in EVERY instance of laying on of hands in the scripture, actually are transferring any spiritual gifts.


42 posted on 12/23/2013 5:23:08 PM PST by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

Well done!


43 posted on 12/23/2013 5:23:49 PM PST by narses (... unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.)
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To: F15Eagle

lol


44 posted on 12/23/2013 5:28:07 PM PST by Hoodat (Democrats - Opposing Equal Protection since 1828)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

No, but Scripture is what Scripture is.


45 posted on 12/23/2013 5:57:41 PM PST by F15Eagle (1Jn4:15;5:4-5,11-13;Mt27:50-54;Mk15:33-34;Jn3:17-18,6:69,11:25,14:6,20:31;Ro10:8-11;1Tm2:5-6;Ti3:4-7)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
The fact that signs and wonders accompanied the giving of the Spirit in those days, which is no longer given in our day

Speak for yourself.

46 posted on 12/23/2013 6:02:02 PM PST by Hoodat (Democrats - Opposing Equal Protection since 1828)
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To: redleghunter
Doug I may have asked this before. How do you trace apostolic authority for the laying of hands to receive the Holy Spirit? I know you said any believer can do it, but that would require, excuse the term, believer “zero” to get the ball running in your church. Is there a tradition in your church dating back to when?

I don't think there had to be apostolic authority in the way you defined it last time we talked. Nobody knows for sure the path, only that we trust that God provided that path. Obviously we can't know for sure.

And BTW I don't think that the path led straight or exclusively to UCG. My speculation is that the first gentile Christians and the first jewish Christians established this line and it went many places and through many organizations such as Catholics, Protestants or groups unknown, etc. and branched out many places. Those first gentiles who receive the God's spirit are never again mentioned in scripture but it's presumed they laid hands on people. I also don't think the holy spirit is something that is transferred from person to person but instead is given by God at the request of believer by God through prayer and the laying on of hands.

I will admit Armstrong claimed a different unbroken apostolic tradition from Rome. I think he called it the underground church. I did not get this from a website but from his early programs which my friends mom used to watch.

From my understanding (and I was never in Armstrong's organization) I think you're right. He and most of the Worldwide people taught for the most part that that this path was invisible and probably wouldn't have granted that it could go through any traditional or Catholic church. My view, which I believe is shared by many within UCG, is that Christians and potential Christians exist within (and outside of) many organizations. UCG has for the last few years been trying to weed out what are traditional beliefs as opposed to scriptural ones. Hope that helps. Clearly there must be speculation about this...

47 posted on 12/23/2013 6:04:00 PM PST by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC

My church refers to it as the baptism of the Holy Spirit. I believe one of the greatest tragedies of modern day Christians is that they do not develop an intimate relationship with Holy Spirit.


48 posted on 12/23/2013 6:08:08 PM PST by Hoodat (Democrats - Opposing Equal Protection since 1828)
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To: F15Eagle; Hoodat

“No, but Scripture is what Scripture is.”


Keep in mind we’re talking about a anti-Trinitarian religious cult that believes that unless you receive the laying on of hands by their ministers, you do not have the the Holy Spirit. Therefore, you are damned, as you have not kept up with the second obligation necessary to start on the road to ‘eternal life.’ The scripture, certainly, says no such thing as that, as has been shown.

Perhaps you are a Charismatic who holds that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is a second and independent event to salvation, and that is what you are reading into the text, and not what this guy is actually arguing is in the text?


49 posted on 12/23/2013 6:11:00 PM PST by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
As Barnes observes: “... on the question whether it [the laying on of hands] is to be regarded as of perpetual obligation in the Church, we are to remember: (1) That the apostles were endowed with the power of imparting the influences of the Holy Spirit in a miraculous or extraordinary manner. It was with reference to such an imparting of the Holy Spirit that the expression is used in each of the cases where it occurs in the New Testament. (2) the Saviour did not appoint the imposition of the hands of a “bishop” to be one of the rites or ceremonies to be observed perpetually in the Church. The injunction to be baptized and to observe his supper is positive, and is universal in its obligation. But there is no such command respecting the imposition of hands.”

Quoting the opinion of a "guy" to try and supersede scripture on the matter gives me a choice to believe the "guy" or to believe scripture. I'll take scripture every time.

50 posted on 12/23/2013 6:11:09 PM PST by DouglasKC
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