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Did Jesus Claim to be God?
http://knowwhatyoubelieve.com/index.php ^ | 2013 | Richard Helsby

Posted on 12/23/2013 5:14:49 AM PST by Kevmo

Did Jesus Claim to be God?

Summary

Evidence in addition to his claims in the New Testament

The concept of Jesus as divine existed within at least 10 to 20 years of his crucifixion, and therefore likely to have been asserted by Jesus himself. The claims of Jesus to be God make sense of his trial and crucifixion i.e. blasphemy The early enemies of Christ would have declared that Jesus never made such claim A parallel movement, that claimed Jesus as merely a good teacher, would have emerged alongside Christianity

Jesus' use of Divine Titles Yahweh - claiming the sacred Old Testament name for God. Yahweh means "He who is" or "I am" Son of God - claiming to be of the same nature as God, co-equal and co-eternal with God Son of Man - claiming to be the Messiah / King / Deliverer of the Jews. Used to proclaim his divine identity Lord - claiming to be "Adonai" - a term applied to God in the Old Testament Abba - referred to God as father - uniquely using the familiar word of closest intimacy People responded to these claims by wanting to kill Jesus as this was the punishment required for blasphemy

Additional claims to be God

· To be pre-existent "before Abraham was born, I am!" John 8:58 · To be omnipresent "and surely I am with you always" Matthew 28:20 · To be omniscient "you know all things … You believe at last!" John 16:30 · To be omnipotent "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me" Matthew 28:18 · Should be worshipped "And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin…" Mark 9:42 · Divine authority To forgive sins , To have authority over the laws of the Sabbath, That the elect and angels are his, To be able to give authority over evil to others, To have authority over all people · Word will outlast time "my words will never pass away" Mark 13:31 · To be sinless "Can any of you prove me guilty of sin?" John 8:46 · That all God has is his "All I have is yours, and all you have is mine" - said praying to God - John 17:10 · To give freedom "If the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed" John 8:36 · To send prophets "Therefore I am sending you prophets" Matthew 23:34 · To deserve highest loyalty "Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me" Mt 10:37 · To be equal with God that a response to him is the same as a response to God. John 15:23 that he is to be honoured to the same extent as God is honoured. John 5:22 that to see him is to see God. John 14:9 that to know him is to know God. John 8:19 that him coming to the Jewish people was the same as God being there. Luke 19:43 that he operates with and to the same extent as God. John 5:17 that he is directly equal with God. John 10:30-39 · To be able to raise himself from the dead "I lay down my life -- only to take it up again... I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again" John 10:17,18 That people's eternal destiny depends on their response to him. Mathew 7:21-23, John 8:24

The Importance of the Issue

This issue is crucially important for at least five reasons

The divinity of Christ is the most distinctively Christian belief or doctrine of them all. A Christian is most essentially defined as one who believes that Jesus was God. And no other religion has a doctrine that is even similar. Buddhists do not believe that Buddha was God and Muslims do not believe that Muhammad was God. [1 p. 151]

This doctrine works like a skeleton key, unlocking all the other doctrinal doors of Christianity. Christians believe each of their many doctrines not because they have reasoned their own way to them, but on the divine authority of the One who taught them, as recorded in the Bible and transmitted by the church. If Jesus Christ was only human, he could have made mistakes. Thus, anyone who wants to dissent from any of Christ’s unpopular teachings will want to deny his divinity. And there are bound to be things in his teachings that each of us finds offensive - if we look at the totality of those teachings rather than confining ourselves to comfortable and familiar ones. [1 p. 152]

If Christ is divine, then the incarnation (God taking on human form) is the most important event in history. It is the hinge of history. It changes everything. If Jesus Christ is God, then when he died on the cross, he provided a means for God and humans to be reconciled. No event in history could be more important to every person on earth than that. [1 p. 152]

It has tremendous implications for us now. For if Jesus Christ is God, then, since he is omnipotent and present right now, he can transform you and your life right now as nothing and no one else possibly can. [1 p. 152]

If Christ is divine, he has right to our entire lives, including our inner life and out thoughts. If Christ is divine, our absolute obligation is to believe everything he says and obey everything he commands. [1 p. 152]

The difficulty of this issue

Christians ought to realise how difficult, how scandalous, how objectionable, how apparently unbelievable and absurd this doctrine is bound to appear to others. [1]

The difficulty is a double one. First, there is the immediate, instinctive, intuitive shock. Second, on the reflective, rational level this claim seems absurd. It is the claim of a man who came from a woman’s womb, grew from a baby, got hungry and tired and angry, suffered and died – to be divine! It is not only intuitively shocking, but it also seems logically self-contradictory. [1 p. 153]

Before we attempt to address these difficulties and the validity of Christ’s claim to be God, we need to establish that he did indeed make such a claim. Many suggest that Jesus either never made any claims to deity; that His claims were altered by His biased followers; or, that His claims were misunderstood by His ignorant followers. [15] Did Jesus make any claims to deity?

When we examine the New Testament documents, we find that Jesus makes numerous claims to deity - to be God. The sceptics who doubt this, generally doubt the accuracy and credibility of the documents themselves, but as we have shown in the previous sections, the New Testament documents are historical reliable. They more than satisfactorily pass each of the tests of historicity and are therefore reliable in their accounts of the life of Jesus.

It may also be worth noting a few additional points that support the fact that Jesus did make claims to deity.

There is ample indication that the early church based its doctrine on things Jesus said and did, including His claims to divinity, rather than inventing what He said and did after formulating the doctrines. [15]

Those that deny Jesus made any extraordinary personal claims face the very severe problem of explaining how it is that the worship of Jesus as Lord and God came about at all in the early church. [16] This is even more problematic when we realize that within twenty years of the crucifixion a full-blown Christology (theory/doctrine) proclaiming Jesus as God incarnate (God in human form) existed. How does one explain this worship by monotheistic Jews of one of their countrymen as God incarnate, apart from the claims of Jesus himself? [15]

The oldest liturgical prayer recorded, in 1 Corinthians 16:22, is dated at around 55 AD. It refers to Jesus as Lord - a divine title reserved for God. Paul's letters, written between 49 and 65 AD exhibit the same fully evolved Christology; logically, he must have gotten it from sometime earlier than 49 AD. Paul cites creeds, hymns and sayings of Jesus that must have been come from earlier (Romans 1:3-4; 1 Corinthians 11:23; Colossians. 1:15-16; Philippians. 2:6-11; 1 Timothy. 3:16; 2 Timothy. 2:8). These items translate easily into Aramaic and show features of Hebrew poetry and thought-forms, which allows us to trace their origins to Jesus' first followers in Judea, between 33 and 48 AD. [15]

The oldest Christian document shows Paul repeatedly calling Jesus 'Christ' (the title "Christ" is a Greek equivalent to the Jewish term "Messiah" - the king and deliverer / saviour expected by the Jewish people). He does this in a way that suggests that, within twenty years of Jesus' death and resurrection, this comprehensive title for Jesus' identity and powers was simply taken for granted by Paul and his readers. The title had almost become Jesus’ second (personal) name (1 Thessalonians 1:1, 3; 5:23, 28). In his letters Paul uses 'Christ' 270 times but never considers it necessary to argue explicitly that Jesus is 'the Christ' whom Israel expected. [15]

All of this leads to the inevitable conclusion that the concept of Jesus as divine quite definitely existed within, at the very least, a decade of the crucifixion, and therefore, was likely to have been asserted before His death by Jesus Himself, as is recorded in the Gospels. [15]

The claims of Jesus to be God make sense of his trial and crucifixion.[1 p. 163]

The Jewish sensitivity to blasphemy was unique; no one else would so fanatically insist on death as punishment for claiming divinity. Throughout the Roman world, the prevailing attitude towards the gods was “the more, the merrier”. [1 p. 163]

The political excuse that he was Caesar’s rival was a lie trumped up to justify his execution, since Roman law did not recognize blasphemy as ground for execution and the Jews had no legal power to enforce their own religious laws of capital punishment under Roman rule. [1 p. 164]

The enemies of Christianity would have declared that Jesus never made such claims [15]

If Jesus never claimed to be divine, and never claimed it in the sense that is indicated in the Gospels, it is reasonable to expect that the enemies of Christianity and the early church would have declared that Jesus never made such claims, or that he was misunderstood. Some did indeed do this, but wrote quite some time after the fact. There is no record contemporary or closely contemporary with Jesus (first century AD) that indicates that He never made any special claims for Himself, or that the church invented the claims. Even after that time, however, the major sceptics of the first several centuries never argued this point. The Jesus-never-claimed-divinity argument had not been advanced by sceptics of the time, and if it was used, perhaps by some sceptic whose works we have totally lost, it was so easily dismissed or so lacked adequate credibility that it could not be used by the best anti-Christian sceptics. [15]

A parallel movement, that acclaimed Jesus as merely a good teacher, would have emerged alongside Christianity. [15]

As it is, there are no existing texts from the first century, or even from the century thereafter, that represent Jesus as claiming to be only human or only a prophet. He is always portrayed as making exalted claims to a super-human status. [15] Was Jesus Misunderstood?

What about the idea that Jesus did say some or all of the things the Gospels attribute to Him, but that He was misunderstood by his followers. Regrettably, with this objection often comes either some outrageous interpretation of the claims of Jesus that would never have held water in Judaism - or nothing at all but the suggestion itself without alternative. (One must, of course, when making this suggestion, should actually name some alternative interpretations of the claims of Jesus and show that these "alternative interpretations" would hold water within the social and historical context of the New Testament records). [15]

It may be objected that Jesus spoke rather cryptically at times, so that perhaps He truly was misunderstood. But as we will see, it is hardly plausible that Jesus' claims were misunderstood; they are too clear-cut when understood in the context of the time and place they were made. [15]

We are also told that Jesus did explain things to His disciples privately after the crowds were gone: "He did not say anything to them without using a parable. But when he was alone with his own disciples, he explained everything." (Mark 4:34). This was standard practice for an inner circle of disciple. For a practical example of this, see the ‘Parable of the Sower’ in Matthew 13. These disciples, of course, represent the people who wrote (Matthew, John) or else supplied information (Mark, Luke) for the Gospels. [15]

This argument is best defeated by examining the actual claims attributed to Jesus in the New Testament. [15] Evidence for Jesus’ Deity

Not one recognized religious leader, not Moses, Paul, Buddha, Mohammed, Confucious, etc., has ever claimed to be God; that is, with the exception of Jesus Christ. Christ is the only religious leader who has ever claimed to be deity and the only individual ever who has convinced a great portion of the world that He is God. [5 p.89] Jesus' use of divine titles / names YHWH - Lord

In the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament), the sacred name for God was YHWH, likely pronounced Yahweh. Yahweh (see Exodus 3:14) basically means "He who is", or "I am who I am". [31 p. 78] The Jewish people out of sheer reverence refused even to pronounce this name. [5 p. 99] Jesus, however, used this name when referring to himself!

John 8.24: "I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be [or 'I am he'], you will indeed die in your sins."

John 8.28: "… then you will know that I am the one I claim to be [or 'I am he']…"

John 8.58-59: "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" At this, they picked up stones to stone him…

Notice how, in the last reference, the listeners immediately understood his claim. They picked up stones to execute him - the punishment for blasphemy (Leviticus 24:16). [16]

Buy using this title to refer to himself, Jesus was making an explicit claim to be YHWH, to be God! Son of God

A son is of the same nature, the same species, the same essence, as his father. Jesus called God his Father, thereby saying that he is of the same nature as God. [1 p. 150]

Jesus makes it clear that he is not just 'a son of God' or one of the 'sons of God' but 'the son of God' (the phrase 'sons of God' is sometimes used to refer to men or angels in the Old Testament). In every instance where Jesus refers to himself as 'God's Son', or to God as 'my Father', he implies that he is the one and only Son of God; co-equal and co-eternal with God. [5 p. 100]

Matthew 16.15-17: "But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?" Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ [Messiah], the Son of the living God." Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven."

Mark 14.62: Again the high priest asked him, "Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?" "I am," said Jesus.

John 5.17-23: Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working." For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, to your amazement he will show him even greater things than these. For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

Notice several things about this important passage: [16]

Jesus claim to be the Son is understood by the audience as blasphemy--a claim to deity!

Jesus response is NOT to say 'hey, but I am using sonship differently than that-I am NOT claiming to be God'--instead He simply continues describing the incredible unity between Himself and the Father (the Father's works are the Son's works, the Son knows everything the Father does, the Son gives life just like the Father does, the Father entrusts all judgment to the Son, the Son is supposed to be honored 'just as' the Father is honored, dishonoring the Son is equivalent to dishonoring the Father).

These are incredible claims. Jesus' disciples and his enemies clearly understood from their Jewish backgrounds that by Jesus applying the term 'Son of God' to himself, he was claiming to be equal to God. [5 p. 101] Son of Man

Jesus often used the title "Son of man" to refer to himself. This title occurs in the Old Testament (Daniel 7: 13,14), and by the time of Jesus had tremendous messianic significance.

Daniel 7.13,14: "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshipped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed."

Notice too the many divine qualities that are associated with the 'Son of Man'. By using this title, Jesus clearly believed himself to be the fulfillment of the Old Testament prophecies of the Messiah - the King and deliverer / saviour expected by the Jews. [5 p. 102] It is also worth noting there was a belief that the Messiah was to be divine [31 p. 83]

Matthew 11.6,7: "… But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins…" Then he said to the paralytic, "Get up, take our mat and go home." And the man got up and went home.

Matthew 16:13-17 "When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?" They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets." "But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?" Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ [Messiah], the Son of the living God." Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven"

Mark 14.62-64: Again the high priest asked him, "Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?" 62 "I am," said Jesus. "And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven". The high priest tore his clothes. "Why do we need any more witnesses?" he asked. "You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?"

Notice too the response of the High. Jesus' claims to be the Danielic messiah and to be the Son of God were understood by the 1st century Palestinian Jew to be claims to deity! [16]

Once one takes together, the 80+ passages in which Jesus makes use of the title "Son of Man", we see indisputable evidence that Jesus proclaimed His divine identity through the title "Son of Man." [15] Abba - Father

Jesus asserted that He had a relationship with God, which no one had ever claimed before. It comes out of the Aramaic word Abba which He often used, especially in prayer. Nobody before Him in all the history of Israel had addressed God by this word.

The Jews were accustomed to praying to God the Father: but the word they used was Abhinu, a form of address which was essentially an appeal to God for mercy and forgiveness. There is no appeal for mercy in Jesus' mode of address, Abba. It is the familiar word of closest intimacy. By using it, he differentiated between His own relationship with God as Father and that of other people. [5 p. 102]

The Jewish leaders of the day, immediately, realized the implications of the word Abba, and charged Him with blasphemy. [5 p. 102]

John 5.17-18: Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working." For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. Jesus' claims to be God

The New Testament reveals that Jesus claimed to have attributes that only God could posses. Jesus' claims to pre-existence

Jesus claimed the have been pre-existent before his birth--he was around before Abraham. [16]

John 8.58-59: "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" At this, they picked up stones to stone him--Notice: This statement actually goes beyond pre-existence--it is an explicit claim to be YHWH. [16]

Jesus claimed to have been pre-existent in heaven with glory before His incarnation (God taking on human form) [16]

John 3.13: No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven -- the Son of Man

John 6.38: For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me

John 8.23: But he continued, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world" Jesus' claims to be omnipresent

Jesus makes claims to be omnipresent - everywhere present at the same time. [31 p. 76]

Matthew 18.20: For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them."

Matthew 28.20: "… And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." Jesus' claims to be omniscient

Jesus makes claims to be omniscient - to have infinite knowledge. [31 p. 77]

John 16.30: "Now we can see that you know all things and that you do not even need to have anyone ask you questions. This makes us believe that you came from God." "You believe at last!" Jesus answered.

John 13.21,26: "After he had said this, Jesus was troubled in spirit and testified, "I tell you the truth, one of you is going to betray me…. It is the one to whom I will give this piece of bread when I have dipped it in the dish." Then, dipping the piece of bread, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, son of Simon."

Matthew 12.25: "Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them…"

Matthew 24:25: "… See, I have told you ahead of time"

Luke 22:31: "Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift you as wheat" Jesus' claims to be omnipotent

Jesus makes claims to be omnipotent - to be all powerful. [31 p. 77]

Matthew 28.18: Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."

John 5.227: "And he [God] has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man."

John 10.17,18: "… I lay down my life… I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again"

John 6.37,39: "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away… I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day"

John 1.3: Through him [Jesus] all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Luke 4.38-40: Jesus … rebuked the fever, and it left her. She got up at once and began to wait on them. When the sun was setting, the people brought to Jesus all who had various kinds of sickness, and laying his hands on each one, he healed them.

Mark 4.41: They were terrified and asked each other, "Who is this? Even the wind and the waves obey him!"

Luke 4.36: All the people were amazed and said to each other, "What is this teaching? With authority and power he gives orders to evil spirits and they come out!"

Jesus asks for and accepts worship as God

In the Jewish culture worship is reserved for God. [5 p. 95]

Jeremiah 17.5: This is what the Lord says: "Cursed is the one who trusts in man…"

Matthew 4.10: Jesus said to him… "Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only"

However, Jesus makes claims pertaining to the worship of himself! He holds himself out as a legitimate object of religious faith. [16]

Mark 9:42: "And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin…"

John 9.35-38: Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, and when he found him, he said, "Do you believe in the Son of Man?" "Who is he, sir?" the man asked. "Tell me so that I may believe in him." Jesus said, "You have now seen him; in fact, he is the one speaking with you." Then the man said, "Lord, I believe," and he worshipped him.

Notice: In this passage Jesus affirms himself as both a legitimate object of religious faith and as a legitimate object of worship! (No rebuke is given to the man at all for worshipping Jesus--even in the presence of the Pharisees!) [16]

It is important to note that Jesus never corrects those who accuse him of making himself equal to God, or those who called him "God". [16]

John 5.17: See the previous note in the discussion of Jesus' "Son of God" title

John 8.58-59: See the previous note in the discussion of Jesus' "YHWH" title

John 20.28-29: Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!" Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." Jesus' claims to authority - authority that only God has

Jesus claimed to be able to forgive sins. [16]

Luke 7.48-49: Then Jesus said to her, "Your sins are forgiven." The other guests began to say among themselves, "Who is this who even forgives sins?"

Mark 2.5-10: When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven." Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, "Why does this fellow talk like that? He's blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?" Immediately Jesus knew in his spirit that this was what they were thinking in their hearts, and he said to them, "Why are you thinking these things? Which is easier: to say to the paralytic, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up, take your mat and walk'? But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins...."

A rather strong statement of divine authority, and the context shows that it was a blasphemous assertion if He was not God!. Notice that He does not answer their charges with a "Hold on now! I am not claiming to be God! I am claiming something less!" [16]

Jesus had authority over the laws of the Sabbath - laws created by God. [16]

Mark 2.28: So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."

Jesus claims that the elect, and that the angels are his. [16]

Mark 13.26-27: "At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

Notice: Jesus identifies himself with the Divine figure in Daniel 7.13, talks of his coming with 'great glory', calls the angels 'HIS angels', calls the elect "HIS elect", and somehow is able to gather them together from all places on the globe. There are quite a few strong deity claims in this little passage! [16]

Jesus implied that he had the ability/authority to abolish the law. [16]

Matthew 5.17: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them…"

Jesus implied a divine authority. [16]

Matthew 5: The "you have heard...but I say to you" passages are generally considered to be statements of divine authority [16]

Jesus had the authority to give authority over evil to others. [16]

Luke 10.19: I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you

Jesus claims to have universal authority. [16]

John 17.2: For you granted him authority over all people. [16]

Jesus has authority to confer a kingdom in the same manner that the God does. [16]

Luke 22.29: And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me

Jesus makes claims that make no sense if he is not God

His claims that his words will outlast time itself. [16]

Mark 13.31: Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away

His claims that the eternal destiny of people depend on their response to Him. [16]

Matthew 7:21-23: Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Notice that Jesus makes people's eternal destiny contingent upon HIS approval of them! What an incredible claim! [16]

His claims to be absolutely perfect / sinless. [16]

John 8.46: Can any of you prove me guilty of sin?

Would a normal human being, with ethical standards as high as Jesus, ever claim to be sinless? [16]

Other claims that are ludicrous if Jesus is not God.

John 15.5: "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

Note: this is another passage that makes no sense without a divine Jesus. How could the phrase 'apart from me you can do nothing' make any sense--if Jesus were not God--omnipotent, omnipresent deity? [16]

John 17.10: All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. -- Note that Jesus is praying to God in this verse

Unless Jesus is truly God, this statement is ridiculous. [16]

Additional claims about his nature and powers

Jesus is often linked to the word 'Lord'.

Mark 11.3: If anyone asks you, `Why are you doing this?' tell him, 'The Lord needs it and will send it back here shortly.'

Mark 5.19: Jesus… said, "Go home to your family and tell them how much the Lord has done for you, and how he has had mercy on you." So the man went away and began to tell in the Decapolis how much Jesus had done for him."

He even states he will be addressed as “Lord” (Mt 7.21-22a). This word is equitable with the title "Adonai" applied to God in the Old Testament, which logically means that Jesus thought of Himself as being God, or worthy of God's divine title - which amounts to the same thing! [15]

Jesus claimed to be greater than the Temple, than the prophet Jonah, and than King Solomon. [16]

Matthew 12.6: I tell you that one greater than the temple is here

Matthew 12.41-42: The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now one greater than Jonah is here. The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon's wisdom, and now one greater than Solomon is here

Jesus claims to be able to give freedom.

John 8.36: So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed

Jesus claims to be able to raise himself from the dead.

John 10.17,18: The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life -- only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again.

This incredible passage has Jesus affirming that He can 'raise Himself from the dead' [16]

Jesus claims that he is responsible for sending prophets. [15]

Matthew 23.34: Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town

In Jewish belief, it is God who is responsible for sending prophets. In saying that He will send prophets, Jesus is equating Himself with God - assuming a role reserved for God alone. [15]

Jesus claims loyalty greater than all human loyalties. [16]

Matthew 10.37: "Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me

Notice that Jesus claims allegiance and loyalty greater than the strongest of relationships--the family. Only a relationship with God supersedes those relationships! [16]

Jesus' claims to equality with God

He claims to be, and is repeatedly called, the potentially blasphemous title "Son of God".

See the previous discussion on the title "Son of God"

Jesus claims that one's response to Him is equated to one's response to God. [16]

John 15.23: He who hates me hates my Father as well.

This passage is preposterous if Jesus is not 'identical' in both character and action with God the Father

Jesus claims that he should be honoured to the same extent as God is honoured. [16]

John 5.22: Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him

Jesus claims that to see Him is to see God. [16]

John 14.9: Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

John 12.44, 45: When a man… looks at me, he sees the one who sent me.

Jesus claims that to believe in Him is to believe in God. [16]

John 12.44: When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me.

Jesus claims that to know Him is to know God. [31 p. 82]

John 8.19: If you knew me, you would know my Father also.

He never corrects those who accuse him of making himself equal to nor those who called him "GOD". [16]

See the previous discussion on this point

He claims that his coming to the Jewish people was the same as God's coming. [16]

Luke 19.43,44: The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side. They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God's coming to you."

He claims to operate with, and to the same extent as God [16]

John 5.17: Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working." For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

He claims direct equality with God [16]

John 10.30-39: I and the Father are one." 31 Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?" 33 "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God." 34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'? 35 If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came -- and the Scripture cannot be broken -- 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? 37 Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. 38 But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." 39 Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

This passage is so very clear as to the intent and content of Jesus' claims--they were explicitly claims to being God! His affirmation of unity (30) is understood immediately as being a claim to deity (33). Jesus defends his affirmation with a technical argument in Rabbinic style. The general argument type is like this: "If it is okay to use the term X in a limited sense on Y, then it is certainly okay to use it in an expanded sense on a Z that is so much more than Y". In this passage, He thus argues that if it was okay in the psalms to call the Israelite leaders 'elohim' once, then it was certainly appropriate to call the pre-existent One, special of the Father, perfect image of the Father's character and actions, "GOD". And, once again, they understand that claim to real deity and try to seize him! His claims were quite clear - He was claiming to be fully God. [16]

How those around Jesus Christ responded to Him [16]

God calls him "Son" and declares that He is "pleased" with Jesus (Matthew 3.16)

God tells some of the disciples to pay attention to Jesus (Matthew 17.5)

Evil spirits knew he was the Son of God (Matthew 8.28-29; 3.11) and the Holy One of God (Matthew 1.23)

His enemies knew he was claiming to be God (Matthew 9.3; 26.63; John 5.18; 10.33)--and accused him of blasphemy.

Some of the general populace called/considered him God (Luke 7.16; 8.39-40)

John the Baptist recognized Jesus' radical superiority to himself (Matthew 3.13; John 1.26-30,34)

The disciples and those whose lives He touched worshipped Him (Matthew 14.33; John 9.35)

He was repeatedly called the Son of God (Matthew 14.33; 16.16; John 1.26-30,34; John 1.49; 11.27)

He was called "God" directly (John 20.27)

Later Rabbinical writings 'remember' some of these exorbitant claims of Jesus.

If we step back from the data at this point, and look at it in its entirety, we cannot but be overwhelmed by the massiveness of it! We might be able to argue away a little here, and a little there, but the sheer bulk of this cannot be moved. One cannot stop an avalanche 'one rock at a time'. We come face to face with the reality that the Jesus shared all of the attributes, glory, and status of God. The claims above are simply too numerous and to consistently understood as being claims to deity. [16] Conclusion

The argument that Jesus never claimed to be divine is in fact nothing more than an unsupportable conjecture, an argument from silence competing against the scream of the available data. Each of the above claims, and every known document of the church, even the heretical ones, acknowledge that Jesus claimed divinity. There is absolutely no evidence to the contrary that can be cited. [15]

Jesus claimed to be God. No matter how hard we try to dissect it or explain it away, the evidence points directly to that most special claim made by Jesus. One must now answer His question: "Who do you say that I am?" [15] We now look at the truth of Jesus’ claims.


TOPICS: Apologetics; History
KEYWORDS: apologetics; historicity; historicityofchrist; historicityofjesus
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This reminds me of an article I wrote about 20 years ago, previously posted on FR.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2056400/posts

*********************** My article from several years ago ************************

Date: 24-OCT-1994 14:28:12.94 From: “Kevin O’Malley” Reply-To: k3oma...@sisko.sbcc.cc.ca.us () Subj: RE: Evidence that Jesus Claimed to be God Part 1

Since I do not subscribe to this newsletter, please reply/comment by email.

Evidence that Jesus claimed to be God. *************************************

Three books I would recommend and which I will be quoting/borrowing from:

More than a Carpenter by Josh McDowell Abbrev: MTAC Evidence that Demands a Verdict by Josh McDowell Abbrev: ETDAV Jesus: God, Ghost or Guru? by Jon Buell & O.Q. Hyder Abbrev: JGGG

His actions:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- He forgave sin that had been committed against others. In Mark 2 a paralytic was lowered through a hole in the roof and Jesus said, “My son, your sins are forgiven.” The response of the scribes who were present was “He is blaspheming. Who can forgive sins but God alone?”(Mark 2:7) According to JGGG, “...there isn’t a single verse in the Old Testament (or other Jewish literature) that clearly designates for the Messiah the power to forgive sins, although the same literature does ascribe this power to Jehovah!” (JGGG 23)

He accepted worship.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Matthew 21:16. Jesus’ answer to the chief priests and scribes was to quote Psalm 8:2 “out of the mouth of infants and nursing babes Thou hastprepared praise for Thyself”

When Thomas felt his wounds after the resurrection, he cried out “Behold my Lord and my God!” (John 20:26-29) Jesus commented on Thomas’s unbelief rather than any misplaced worship — very significant for average 1st century monotheistic jews.

According to JGGG, other examples include Peter’s acclaim (Matt 16:16) accepting the title Son of the living God, and the worship of the disciples afloat on the Sea of Galilee (Matt 14:33) and again just prior to being commissioned in Matt28. According to MTAC Jesus demanded to be worshipped as God in John 5:23, “compare Hebrews 1:6, Revelation 5:8-14”.

Jesus’Words

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- His use of the hebrew phrase “ani hu” which gets translated into greek variously as “I am He” or “I am”. The roots of the phrase, according to JGGG and Ethelbert Stauffer in “Jesus and His Story” are from various Old Testament scriputes such as Psalm 50:7 + 113-118, Isaiah 43, Deut 32 + 39 , 26:8, 5:16, etc. Ani is a self - disclosure term used by Jehovah. Hu is the emphatic form of the personal pronoun “huah”, which means “he”, and often used in the 1st century as a substitute for Yahweh. In Mark 13:6 Jesus warns that counterfeits saying “Ani Hu” would arise impersonating HIM. In John 13 Jesus says, “From now on I am telling you before it comes to pass, so that when it does occur, you may believe that I am He (Ani Hu).” Finally, in front of the highest court in his land, Jesus responds to the question of whether he is the Messiah by saying, “Ani Hu” (Mark 16:61-62). Furthermore, Jesus follows up this claim by saying, “And you shall see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power coming on the clouds of Heaven.” Here Jesus quotes Daniel 7 and Psalm110:1. Jehovah is the only One in the Old Testament who comes on the clouds of Heaven, and being seated at the right hand of someone is an expression meaning to have equivalent status as that person. It’s important to note that Jesus was sentenced to death for who he claimed to be. John 10:30 Jesus says “I and the Father are one.” The jews who heard this rightly heard a claim to deity and tried to stone Jesus.

John 8:58 Jesus says “Before Abraham was, I am”, again followed by an attempted stoning.

John 14:9 Jesus says to Philip “He that has seen me has seen the Father”

Jesus’ response to the scribes John in 5:16-18 when he said “My Father is working until now, and I Myself and working” when he was accused of breaking the sabbath. According to MTAC, the cultural context is important and he is effectively saying ‘God is MY Father’ and they sought to kill him. MTAC: “The reason is that Jesus said ‘my Father,’ not ‘our Father,’ and then added “is working until now.’ Jesus’ use of these two phrases made himself equal with God, on a par with God’s activity. The Jews did not refer to God as ‘my Father.’ Or if they did, they would qualify the statement with ‘in Heaven.’ However, Jesus did not do this. He made a claim that the Jews could not misinterpret when he called God ‘my Father.’”

The basic phrases where Jesus claims to be one in essence with God. John 12:45 — He who beholds me beholds the One who sent me; John 8:19 — If you knew me, you would know my Father also; John 5:23 — He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him;

Opposing Sources

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Per Stauffer: “For if a confrontation of witnesses yields statements that agree on some points, then these points must represent facts accepted by both sides. This principle certainly holds true if the historical traditions of the two groups of witnesses are independent of each other. But it holds true almost as completely in cases where the traditions intersect. For it is highly significant that the witness for the prosecution admits that the witness for the defense is right on certain points; that he agrees with his opponents about certain common facts.”

Justin Martyr and Eusebius mention a circular letter issued by the Sanhedrin. Martyr Quotes from it: “...a certain Jesus of Galilee, an apostate preacher whom we crucified; but his disciples stole him by night from the cross; they did this in order to persuade men to apostasy by saying that he had awakened from the dead and ascended into heaven.” Per JGGG jewish tradition for at least a century afterwards independently continued to reject Jesus on the basis of his claim to deity.

Lucian, Greek satirist in 2nd century commenting on Jesus. “...the man who was crucified in Palestine because he introduced this new cult into the world.... Furthermore, their first lawgiver persuaded them that they were all brothers one of another after they have transgressed once for all by denying the Greek gods and by worshipping that crucified sophist himself and living under his laws.” Per JGGG, “notice that Lucian specifically pins the blame for the worship of Jesus on ‘their first lawgiver himself.’

Pliny the Younger. (A.D. 61-112) Per JGGG After killing christians, he sought advice from Trajan, mentioning that christians “affirmed, however that the whole of their guilt, or their error, was that they were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verse a hymn to Christ as to a god...”

Jewish Polemic in commentary of Rabbi Eleazar Hakkapar (ca 170 a.d.) per JGGG. “God saw that a man, son of a woman, would come forth in the future who would endeavor to make himself God and to lead the whole world astray.... For it is said: ‘A man is not God.... And if he says he is God, he is a liar. And he will lead men astray and say that he is going and will come back again at the end of days.’ Is it not so that he spoke thus, but he will not be able to do it. “

Jewish Polemic : Per JGGG, Rabbi Abbahu of Caesarea (ca 270) puts the words of Jesus into Balaam’s mouth: “If a man says, ‘I am God,’ he is a liar, if he says I am the Son of Man,’ his end will be such that he will rue it; if he says, ‘I shall ascend to heaven,’ will it not be that he will have spoken and will not be able to perform it?’”

From JGGG: “The first independent test of the validity and integrity of of the reports that we have discussed is a telltale silence in all contemporary literature concerning the claim of Jesus’ deity. There is a complete ABSENCE OF REBUTTAL. Although much was said to deny his deity, nothing was said to deny that he claimed it. (In fact, the first real threat to the infant Christain church came from the Gnostics who wanted to deny his HUMANITY!) ....Paul, writing within thirty years of the events themselves, confidently challenged his readers to check with any eyewitnesses if they wanted to confirm the truthfulness of his message (1Cor. 15:5). THE FACT THAT JESUS CLAIMED DEITY IS WITHOUT A CHALLENGER IN THE FIRST-CENTURY HISTORICAL RECORDS.” (emphasis changed from italics to CAPITALS) This may be an argument from silence, but it is issued as a challenge.

Biblical evidence—Just a touch

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Since most of the rest of the Bible was written before A.D. 90, there were many people who witnessed the events who could have stepped forward if the Gospels, Paul’s epistles, etc. were unfactual. (per JGGG with citation of demographic study)

Paul’s epistles include the following per JGGG: 1) that Jesus was the preexistent Creator of the universe (Col 1:15-16) 2) that Jesus existed both in the “form of man” and in the “form of God” (Phil.2:5,8) 3) that Jesus had been resurrected from the dead, and thereafter was seen by over five hundred eyewitnesses (most of whom were alive when Paul wrote) (1Cor 15:4,5) 4) that prayer could be directed either to God the Father or to Jesus (1Cor 1:2) 5) that one day Jesus would return to earth as the divine judge of humanity (2Thess. 1:7-10) “No first-century Jew — especially one steeped in Jewish orthodoxy as was Paul, trained by the great Rabbi Gamaliel, fiercely monotheistic, a member of the sect of the Pharisees, and possibly even a member of the Great Sanhedrin ... would teach these things about anyone but Jehovah Himself.”

Hebrews 1:8 “But unto the son He says,’Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.”

John

John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.” v.14: “And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory...”

Mark The beginning of the gospel of Mark quotes Malachi 3:1 with a significant alteration: “Behold I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the before me.” Mark-—>”The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. As it is written in the prophets, “Behold I send my messenger before thy face...”

From ETDAV: Indirect claims of deity

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- of Jehovah Mutual Title or Act Of Jesus

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Isa 40:28 Creator John 1:3 Isa 45:22,43:11 Savior John 4:42 1Sam 2:6 Raise Dead John 5:21 Joel 3:12 Judge JJohn 5:27 cf. cf Matt 25:31 ff

Isa 60:19-20 Light John 8:12 Exodus 3:14 I AM John 8:58, cf 18:5-6 ps.23:1 Shepherd John 10:11 Isa 42:8, cf48:11 Glory of God John 17:1,5 Isa 41:4,44:6 First and Last Rev1:17;2:8 Hosea 13:14 Redeemer Rev 5:9 Isa 62:5 Rev 21:2, + Hosea 2:16 Bridegroom cf: Matt 25:1 ff Ps. 18:2 Rock 1 Cor 10:4 Jer 31:34 Forgiver of Sins Mark 2:7, 10 Ps 148:2 Worshipped by Angels Heb 1:6 Thru out O.T. Addressed in Prayer Acts 7:59 Ps. 148:5 Creator of Angels Col 1:16 Isa 45:23 Confessed as Lord Phil 2:11

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kevin O’Malley k3oma...@sisko.sbcc.cc.ca.us

---------------------------

From: Kevin O’Malley k3oma...@sisko.sbcc.cc.ca.us 24-OCT-1994 14:28:12.94 Subj: RE: Evidence that Jesus Claimed to be God

Evidence that Jesus claimed to be God. Part II ************************** Continued from previous post ****************************

Opposing Sources Per Stauffer: “For if a confrontation of witnesses yields statements that agree on some points, then these points must represent facts accepted by both sides. This principle certainly holds true if the historical traditions of the two groups of witnesses are independent of each other. But it holds true almost as completely in cases where the traditions intersect. For it is highly significant that the witness for the prosecution admits that the witness for the defense is right on certain points; that he agrees with his opponents about certain common facts.”

Justin Martyr and Eusebius mention a circular letter issued by the Sanhedrin. Martyr Quotes from it: “...a certain Jesus of Galilee, an apostate preacher whom we crucified; but his disciples stole hime by night from the cross; they did this in order to persuade men to apostasy by saying that he had awakened from the dead and ascended into heaven.” Per JGGG jewish tradition for at least a century afterwards independently continued to reject Jesus on the basis of his claim to deity.

Lucian, Greek satirist in 2nd century commenting on Jesus. “...the man who was crucified in Palestine because he introduced this new cult into the world.... Furthermore, their first lawgiver persuaded them that they were all brothers one of another after they have transgressed once for all by denying the Greek gods and by worshipping that crucified sophist himself and living under his laws.” Per JGGG, “notice that Lucian specifically pins the blame for the worship of Jesus on ‘their first lawgiver himself.’

Pliny the Younger. (A.D. 61-112) Per JGGG After killing christians, he sought advice from Trajan, mentioning that christians “affirmed, however that the whole of their guilt, or their error, was that they were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verse a hymn to Christ as to a god...”

Jewish Polemic in commentary of Rabbi Eleazar Hakkapar (ca 170 a.d.) per JGGG. “God saw that a man, son of a woman, would come forth in the future who would endeavor to make himself God and to lead the whole world astray.... For it is said: ‘A man is not God.... And if he says he is God, he is a liar. And he will lead men astray and say that he is going and will come back again at the end of days.’ Is it not so that he spoke thus, but he will not be able to do it. “

Jewish Polemic : Per JGGG, Rabbi Abbahu of Caesarea (ca 270) puts the words of Jesus into Balaam’s mouth: “If a man says, ‘I am God,’ he is a liar, if he says I am the Son of Man,’ his end will be such that he will rue it; if he says, ‘I shall ascend to heaven,’ will it not be that he will have spoken and will not be able to perform it?’”

From JGGG: “The first independent test of the validity and integrity of of the reports that we have discussed is a telltale silence in all contemporary literature concerning the claim of Jesus’ deity. There is a complete ABSENCE OF REBUTTAL. Although much was said to deny his deity, nothing was said to deny that he claimed it. (In fact, the first real threat to the infant Christain church came from the Gnostics who wanted to deny his HUMANITY!) ....Paul, writing within thirty years of the events themselves, confidently challenged his readers to check with any eyewitnesses if they wanted to confirm the truthfulness of his message (1Cor. 15:5). THE FACT THAT JESUS CLAIMED DEITY IS WITHOUT A CHALLENGER IN THE FIRST-CENTURY HISTORICAL RECORDS.” (emphasis changed from italics to CAPITALS) This may be an argument from silence, but it is issued as a challenge.

Biblical evidence—Just a touch

Since most of the rest of the Bible was written before A.D. 90, there were many people who witnessed the events who could have stepped forward if the Gospels, Paul’s epistles, etc. were unfactual. (per JGGG with citation of demographic study)

Paul’s epistles include the following per JGGG: 1) that Jesus was the preexistent Creator of the universe (Col 1:15-16) 2) that Jesus existed both in the “form of man” and in the “form of God” (Phil.2:5,8) 3) that Jesus had been resurrected from the dead, and thereafter was seen by over five hundred eyewitnesses (most of whom were alive when Paul wrote) (1Cor 15:4,5) 4) that prayer could be directed either to God the Father or to Jesus (1Cor 1:2) 5) that one day Jesus would return to earth as the divine judge of humanity (2Thess. 1:7-10) “No first-century Jew — especially one steeped in Jewish orthodoxy as was Paul, trained by the great Rabbi Gamaliel, fiercely monotheistic, a member of the sect of the Pharisees, and possibly even a member of the Great Sanhedrin ... would teach these things about anyone but Jehovah Himself.”

Hebrews 1:8 “But unto the son He says,’Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.”

John

John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.” v.14: “And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory...”

Mark The beginning of the gospel of Mark quotes Malachi 3:1 with a significant alteration: “Behold I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the before me.” Mark-—>”The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. As it is written in the prophets, “Behold I send my messenger before thy face...”

From ETDAV: Indirect claims of deity of Jehovah Mutual Title or Act Of Jesus Isa 40:28 Creator John 1:3 Isa 45:22,43:11 Savior John 4:42 1Sam 2:6 Raise Dead John 5:21 Joel 3:12 Judge JJohn 5:27 cf. cf Matt 25:31 ff

Isa 60:19-20 Light John 8:12 Exodus 3:14 I AM John 8:58, cf 18:5-6 ps.23:1 Shepherd John 10:11 Isa 42:8, cf48:11 Glory of God John 17:1,5 Isa 41:4,44:6 First and Last Rev1:17;2:8 Hosea 13:14 Redeemer Rev 5:9 Isa 62:5 Rev 21:2, + Hosea 2:16 Bridegroom cf: Matt 25:1 ff Ps. 18:2 Rock 1 Cor 10:4 Jer 31:34 Forgiver of Sins Mark 2:7, 10 Ps 148:2 Worshipped by Angels Heb 1:6 Thru out O.T. Addressed in Prayer Acts 7:59 Ps. 148:5 Creator of Angels Col 1:16 Isa 45:23 Confessed as Lord Phil 2:11

Kevin O’Malley k3oma...@sisko.sbcc.cc.ca.us

1 posted on 12/23/2013 5:14:49 AM PST by Kevmo
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To: Kevmo

To sum up....yes.


2 posted on 12/23/2013 5:20:51 AM PST by tbpiper
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To: Kevmo

ping


3 posted on 12/23/2013 5:21:24 AM PST by Thorliveshere (Minnesota Survivor)
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To: Kevmo
Excellent post.

When one objectively looks at ALL the evidence, it becomes quite clear that Jesus claimed to be God.

Unfortunately, those who choose to say that Jesus never claimed to be Christ, seldom look at the evidence and are seldom objective.

But an absolutely great post for 1 stop shopping for all a person needs to verify that Jesus was who HE CLAIMED to be.

4 posted on 12/23/2013 5:23:40 AM PST by mountn man (The Pleasure You Get From Life Is Equal To The Attitude You Put Into It)
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To: mountn man

Unfortunately, those who choose to say that Jesus never claimed to be Christ, seldom look at the evidence and are seldom objective.
***I agree.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/3069049/posts?page=2003#2003


5 posted on 12/23/2013 5:30:03 AM PST by Kevmo ("A person's a person, no matter how small" ~Horton Hears a Who)
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To: Kevmo
Thanks!

Good work. He is Jesus Christ. He is Christ Jesus.

That's my KING!

Dr. S.M. Lockridge

6 posted on 12/23/2013 5:32:25 AM PST by kinsman redeemer (The real enemy seeks to devour what is good.)
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To: mountn man

The fact that Jesus claimed to be God is a simple question of history, not religion. It is as mundane as history recording that Julius Caesar crossed the Rubicon river. But for those who hold that Jesus is something other than God Himself, such historicity is a huge threat. They twist history in order to conform to their views.


7 posted on 12/23/2013 5:37:45 AM PST by Kevmo ("A person's a person, no matter how small" ~Horton Hears a Who)
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To: Kevmo

Just read the section of the death of Herod -
he was struck down because he was being worshipped by some as a god, and did not disclaim it.

Jesus accepted worship as God.

The contrast is not specifically pointed out in the bible, but the two situations are in there on purpose, of course.


8 posted on 12/23/2013 5:40:25 AM PST by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter admits whom he's working for)
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To: Kevmo
Why would Jesus claim to be God when we all know today that Obama is God?


9 posted on 12/23/2013 5:41:08 AM PST by GrandJediMasterYoda (What do we want? Time travel. When do we want it? It's irrelevant.)
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To: kinsman redeemer

He is Jesus Christ. He is Christ Jesus.
***It’s actually a humorous thing that there are quite a few people who think that Christ was Jesus’s last name. It wasn’t. Christ is a title, which is a greek translation of the jewish concept of Messiah. Messiah means “anointed one”, basically the foretold leader of their country.


10 posted on 12/23/2013 5:41:40 AM PST by Kevmo ("A person's a person, no matter how small" ~Horton Hears a Who)
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To: Kevmo

Yes He did. He always told the Truth. He was even given dominion/permission to use the full powers of God before he was killed, but His Love, Humility and Grace dictated He go through with the Plan.


11 posted on 12/23/2013 5:51:22 AM PST by trebb (Where in the the hell has my country gone?)
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To: MrB

I recently realized that Stephen’s stoning basically backs up the historical fact that Jesus claimed equality with God before the sanhedrin. Stephen was stoned for saying this:

Acts 7:56
“Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”

His blasphemy was the same as Jesus — claiming divine privilege and equality with God Himself on behalf of Jesus of Nazareth. Even the words Stephen used were an echo of what Jesus said at His time.

It is one more piece of evidence that Jesus claimed equality with God and was condemned to death for it.


12 posted on 12/23/2013 5:55:31 AM PST by Kevmo ("A person's a person, no matter how small" ~Horton Hears a Who)
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To: Kevmo

Is Jesus Christ God?

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/3104329/posts

first 1-50, 51-100, 101-150, 151-200, 201-203 next last


13 posted on 12/23/2013 6:21:17 AM PST by tired&retired
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To: Kevmo

How do you account for 1 Corinthians 15:24-28?

24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

This passage tells us that the Father delegated all authority and power to his son for a time, to accomplish specific objectives. Until those objectives are achieved, the son has the delegated capabilities of the Father. When those objectives are achieved, the son is subjected to the Father.

It seems to me that this passage shows a chain of command, not a co-equal sharing of diety.


14 posted on 12/23/2013 6:26:49 AM PST by TruthInThoughtWordAndDeed (Yahuah Yahusha)
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To: All; y'all; et al; Ping
Interesting article from the perspective of those who deal with Islam.


http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2011/06/where-did-jesus-say-i-am-god-worship-me.html

Where Did Jesus Say, "I Am God, Worship Me"?
The Qur’an commands Christians to judge by the Gospel:

Qur’an 5:47—“Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.”

Thus, when Christians present their beliefs, it makes sense for Muslims to ask, “Could you show us where the Bible says that?” Christians should therefore be eager to present evidence from the Gospel, because Muslims cannot condemn us for doing what the Qur’an commands. Indeed, since the Qur’an affirms not only the Gospel, but also the Torah (Qur’an 5:43), Muslims cannot ignore what the Bible says without thereby rebelling against Islam.

Muslims around the world are being trained to ask Christians, “Where did Jesus say, ‘I am God, worship me,’ in those exact words?” However, if Muslims are suggesting that Jesus could only claim to be God by uttering a specific sentence, we may reply by asking, “Where did Jesus say, ‘I am only a prophet, don’t worship me,’ in those exact words?” The unreasonable demand for a particular statement, if applied consistently, would thus force Muslims to reject their own view!

Fortunately, we have a simple way to examine what Jesus said about himself. According to both the Bible and the Qur’an, there are certain claims that only God can truly make. For instance, God alone can correctly state that he created the universe. Of course, a mere human being can pronounce the words, “I created the universe,” but the statement would be false coming from anyone other than God.

Hence, if Jesus said things that can only truly be said by God, we must conclude that Jesus claimed to be God. Interestingly, Jews, Christians, and Muslims agree on many of the claims that cannot be properly made by (or about) mere human beings. Let us consider a few of these.

THE FIRST AND THE LAST

Surah 57:3 of the Qur’an refers to Allah as “the First and the Last, the Most High and the Most Near.” The Old Testament agrees that God is the “First and the Last,” as we read in the Book of the prophet Isaiah:

Isaiah 44:6—Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God besides Me.”

When “LORD” is written in all capitals in the Old Testament, the term refers to Yahweh, the creator of the universe. Since both the Bible and the Qur’an give the title “the First and the Last” to God, it should be quite shocking for Muslims to open the New Testament and read Revelation 1:17-18, where Jesus says:

“Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.”

Would a mere prophet claim to be the “First and the Last”?

WHO FORGIVES SINS?

While one human being may sin against another human being, there is a sense in which all sin is rebellion against God. Similarly, while you and I may forgive one another for the wrongs we commit, only God can offer ultimate forgiveness. Thus, the prophet David could say to God, “Against You, You only, I have sinned 
and done what is evil in Your sight” (Psalm 51:4), and the Prophet Daniel could declare, “To the Lord our God belong compassion and forgiveness, for we have rebelled against Him” (Daniel 9:9).

The Qur’an agrees that ultimate forgiveness belongs to God, for it asks, “Who can forgive sins except Allah?” (3:135).

It might surprise Muslims to learn that, in the New Testament, Jesus claims the ability to forgive sins. In Mark 2, a paralyzed man is brought to Jesus in order to be healed. Jesus’ response leads the religious leaders to accuse him of blasphemy:

Mark 2:5-7—And Jesus seeing their faith said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” But some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, “Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?”

The scribes correctly recognized that only God can forgive sins. Yet Jesus (who referred to himself as the “Son of Man”), knowing their thoughts, replied that “the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins” (Mark 2:10). He then healed the paralytic, proving that his claims were true.

THE LIGHT

In Psalm 27:1, the prophet David proclaims: “The LORD is my light and my salvation.” Similarly, the Qur’an declares that “Allah is the light of the heavens and the earth” (24:35). Yet Jesus tells his listeners that he is “the Light”:

John 8:12—“I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life.”

THE TRUTH

The prophet David refers to Yahweh as the “God of Truth” (Psalm 31:5). According to the Qur’an, “Allah is the Truth” (22:6). Jesus, however, applies this as a title for himself:

John 14:6—Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.”

How can a mere human being claim to be “The Truth”?

THE FINAL JUDGE

In Chapter 3 of the Book of the prophet Joel, Yahweh declares that the nations will be gathered and that he “will sit to judge all the surrounding nations” (v. 12). According to the prophet David, “the LORD abides forever;
 He has established His throne for judgment, and He will judge the world in righteousness” (Psalm 9:7-8).

The Qur’an maintains that Allah will judge the world, rewarding believers and punishing unbelievers:

Qur’an 22:56-57—The kingdom on that day shall be Allah’s; He will judge between them; so those who believe and do good will be in gardens of bliss. And (as for) those who disbelieve in and reject Our communications, these it is who shall have a disgraceful chastisement.

So why, we may wonder, would Jesus tell his followers that he will be the final judge of all people?

Matthew 25:31-32—“But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.”

Jesus goes on to say that he will admit certain people to heaven and cast others into hell. Isn’t this something only God can do?

THE RESURRECTION

The Bible and the Qur’an agree that God is the one who will raise the dead.

1 Samuel 2:6—The LORD kills and makes alive; He brings down to Sheol and raises up.

Qur’an 22:7—Allah will resurrect those who are in the graves.

Since God will raise the dead at the resurrection, why would a mere prophet tell his followers that he will resurrect the dead?

John 5:25-29—“Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.”

John 11:25—Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies.”

GOD’S GLORY

The Qur’an tells us that “Whatsoever is in the heavens and the earth glorifies Allah” (57:1).

In the Old Testament, we find that Yahweh will not share his glory with anyone.

Isaiah 42:8—“I am the LORD, that is My name; 
I will not give My glory to another.” (Cf. Isaiah 48:11—“My glory I will not give to another.”)

Yet Jesus claimed, not only that he would be glorified with the Father, but that he had glory with the Father before the world was created!

John 17:5—“Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.”

How can anyone see this as anything other than a claim to deity?

FURTHER EVIDENCE

In Mark 2:28, Jesus calls himself the “Lord of the Sabbath.” In Matthew 22:41-45, he proves that he is the Lord of the prophet David. In John 8:39-58, Jesus says that he has seen the prophet Abraham. In Matthew 12:6, Jesus claims to be greater than God’s Temple.

Jesus tells us that he has an absolutely unique relationship with the Father (Matthew 11:27), that he can answer prayers (John 14:13-14), that he is present wherever his followers are gathered (Matthew 18:20), that he has “all authority in heaven and on earth” (Matthew 28:18), and that he is with his followers forever (Matthew 28:20). He even makes the startling declaration that “All things that the Father has are Mine” (John 16:15).

According to Jesus, all people must honor him just as we honor the Father:

John 5:21-23—“For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes. For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.”

Since one of the ways we honor the Father is by worshiping him, it should come as no surprise that Jesus’ followers worshiped him on numerous occasions. Indeed, the Gospel tells us that Jesus was worshiped throughout his life: shortly after his birth (Matthew 2:11), during his ministry (Matthew 14:33, John 9:38), after his resurrection (Matthew 28:17), and after his ascension to heaven (Luke 24:52). Jesus’ disciple Thomas even addressed him as “my Lord and my God” (John 20:28).

ASSESSMENT

Where did Jesus say, “I am God, worship me”? As we have seen, Jesus claimed to be the First and the Last, the forgiver of sins, the Light, the Truth, the Final Judge, and the Resurrection. Jesus proclaimed that he had glory with the Father before the world was created, that he is the Lord of the Sabbath and of King David, that he had seen Abraham, and that he is greater than God’s Temple. Jesus has a unique relationship with the Father, he can answer prayers, he is with his followers no matter where they are, he has total authority on earth and in heaven, he is with his followers forever, and he owns everything. Jesus even demanded that he be honored just as the Father is honored. Clearly, these are not the claims of a mere human being. They are not even the claims of a mighty prophet. These are claims only God can truly make. This is why Christians believe that Jesus is God.

POSTSCRIPT: THE ISLAMIC DILEMMA

Since the Bible obviously supports the Christian view of Jesus, Muslims who want to deny the deity of Christ will have to argue that the Gospel has been corrupted. But if the Gospel has been corrupted, why does the Qur’an command Christians to judge by the Gospel? By commanding us to judge by what we find in the Gospel, the Qur’an has inadvertently ordered Christians to reject Islam!

But it gets worse for Muslims. The Qur’an affirms the inspiration and reliability of the Christian Scriptures (3:3-4, 5:47, 5:66, 7:157, 10:94), as well as man’s inability to corrupt God’s Word (6:114-115, 18:27). Muslims therefore cannot reject what the Gospel says, which leaves them with quite a dilemma. If the Gospel is reliable, Islam must be false, since the Gospel presents Jesus as God. Alternatively, if the Gospel is unreliable, Islam must be false, because the Qur’an tells us that the Gospel is the Word of God. Either way, Islam is false, and anyone who is searching for the truth will never find it in the Qur’an.

FOR FURTHER STUDY

"Did Jesus Claim to Be God When He Ascribed to Himself Divine Titles and Attributes?"
"Jesus’ Divine Claims and Islam: An Examination of Biblical Christology In Light of the Quranic View of Allah’s Attributes"
"Islamic Theology Confirms that both Jesus and His Followers Claimed that He Is God!"
"Meeting the Challenge of the Qur'an Concerning the Deity of Christ"

15 posted on 12/23/2013 6:28:44 AM PST by Kevmo ("A person's a person, no matter how small" ~Horton Hears a Who)
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To: TruthInThoughtWordAndDeed

It has no bearing on the fact that Jesus claimed to God. How it’s all worked out as something to be understood is a matter for some other thread. Basically, it is a FACT that Jesus claimed to be God. How you deal with that FACT and come to an understanding is your own issue. But it does not have bearing on the FACT itself.


16 posted on 12/23/2013 6:33:41 AM PST by Kevmo ("A person's a person, no matter how small" ~Horton Hears a Who)
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To: tbpiper
And no other religion has a doctrine that is even similar.

I guess Horus doesn't count.

17 posted on 12/23/2013 6:43:46 AM PST by Usagi_yo
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To: Kevmo

Empty tomb is the lasting proof that Jesus is GOD.

Game over.


18 posted on 12/23/2013 7:10:49 AM PST by Biggirl (“Go, do not be afraid, and serve”-Pope Francis)
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To: Kevmo

Would you please cite the specific scripture where ‘Jesus’ directly, unequivocally claims “I am God.”?


19 posted on 12/23/2013 7:21:23 AM PST by TruthInThoughtWordAndDeed (Yahuah Yahusha)
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To: Kevmo; Religion Moderator

Ummm, what flavor Catholic? Prod? Lutheran?


20 posted on 12/23/2013 7:37:45 AM PST by Gamecock (Celebrating 20,000 posts of dubious quality.)
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To: Gamecock

Ummm, no comprehende your question, senior. This thread is a caucus thread for those who accept that Jesus was God Himself. That includes some/most catholics, most protestants, most Lutherans, very few mormons, very few Jehovah Witnesses, few jews other than completed jews, no moslems and zero atheists. Does that cover the “flavors” you asked about?


21 posted on 12/23/2013 7:44:21 AM PST by Kevmo ("A person's a person, no matter how small" ~Horton Hears a Who)
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To: TruthInThoughtWordAndDeed

Maybe you should read post 15. Jesus’s claims are very unequivocal, but to demand God present Himself as you see fit is the height of arrogance, even more arrogant than moslems.


22 posted on 12/23/2013 7:48:22 AM PST by Kevmo ("A person's a person, no matter how small" ~Horton Hears a Who)
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To: Kevmo

Kevmo, you said “it is a FACT that Jesus claimed to be God”

I am merely asking you to back up your claim with scripture.

Chastising me or yelling at me does not substantiate your claim.


23 posted on 12/23/2013 8:15:55 AM PST by TruthInThoughtWordAndDeed (Yahuah Yahusha)
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To: Kevmo

“co-equal and co-eternal with God Son of Man”

Co-equil?

John 14:28 NIV -

You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

1 Corinthians 15:28 NIV-

When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

1 Timothy 2:5 -

For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus


24 posted on 12/23/2013 8:17:10 AM PST by ScottfromNJ
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To: TruthInThoughtWordAndDeed

I am merely asking you to back up your claim with scripture.
***Then read the article. There’s tons of scripture support.

Chastising me or yelling at me does not substantiate your claim.
***Then get to work. This is perhaps the most central tenet of christianity, so familiarize yourself with the evidence.


25 posted on 12/23/2013 8:19:39 AM PST by Kevmo ("A person's a person, no matter how small" ~Horton Hears a Who)
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To: ScottfromNJ

Co-equil?
***It has no bearing on the fact that Jesus claimed to God. How it’s all worked out as something to be understood is a matter for some other thread.

Perhaps this one:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/3104329/posts

Basically, it is a FACT that Jesus claimed to be God. How you deal with that FACT and come to an understanding is your own issue. But it does not have bearing on the FACT itself.


26 posted on 12/23/2013 8:21:49 AM PST by Kevmo ("A person's a person, no matter how small" ~Horton Hears a Who)
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To: Kevmo
Science today tells us that our Earth is 4.6 billion years old.

Think about it.

27 posted on 12/23/2013 8:25:24 AM PST by OldNavyVet
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To: OldNavyVet

Yup. The bible says a day is like a thousand years to God, and a thousand years is like a day.

Science today tells us that someone travelling the speed of light (the twin paradox) for a year would return to his twin back on earth, and the twin would have aged 100 years. Is God restricted to the speed of light? NO WAY. He no doubt travels faster than that, and so for him to spend a day on creation would look like billions of years to an observer on earth. All verified science.

Think about it.


28 posted on 12/23/2013 8:28:39 AM PST by Kevmo ("A person's a person, no matter how small" ~Horton Hears a Who)
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To: Kevmo

Does that mean that have no scripture to substantiate your claim?

You seem to be angry. Why is that? Are you angry with me for asking a direct question, or are you angry that you can’t answer it?


29 posted on 12/23/2013 8:29:59 AM PST by TruthInThoughtWordAndDeed (Yahuah Yahusha)
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To: TruthInThoughtWordAndDeed

Does that mean that have no scripture to substantiate your claim?
***No, there’s a ton of it in the article. Read the article.

You seem to be angry.
***Nope.

Why is that?
***You presume too much. Read the article.

Are you angry with me for asking a direct question,
***Nope. Read the article and then count how many times scripture substantiates the claim. That will answer your question.

or are you angry that you can’t answer it?
***No, but this is a caucus thread so you will soon want to tone down your hostility.


30 posted on 12/23/2013 8:33:21 AM PST by Kevmo ("A person's a person, no matter how small" ~Horton Hears a Who)
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To: Kevmo
***Ummm, no comprehende your question, senior. This thread is a caucus thread for those who accept that Jesus was God Himself.***

Usually the caucus designation is more specific. So I didn't comprerende

31 posted on 12/23/2013 8:36:00 AM PST by Gamecock (Celebrating 20,000 posts of dubious quality.)
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To: Gamecock

Usually the caucus designation is more specific. So I didn’t comprerende
***I don’t post on the RF that often, but this subject has come up. Just in time for Christmas, so it’s good meditation material for the holiday where we celebrate Immanuel, which means “God With Us”. Jesus being born really WAS God being with us.


32 posted on 12/23/2013 8:38:56 AM PST by Kevmo ("A person's a person, no matter how small" ~Horton Hears a Who)
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To: ScottfromNJ
Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. - Philippians 2:5-7 (English Standard Version)
33 posted on 12/23/2013 8:42:51 AM PST by Edward Teach
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To: Kevmo

What type of caucus is this? Is it a Trinity caucus?


34 posted on 12/23/2013 8:58:09 AM PST by redleghunter
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To: redleghunter

I suppose so. I hope such a caucus exists.


35 posted on 12/23/2013 9:01:56 AM PST by Kevmo ("A person's a person, no matter how small" ~Horton Hears a Who)
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To: Usagi_yo
I guess Horus doesn't count.

Not even close.

36 posted on 12/23/2013 9:18:02 AM PST by tbpiper
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To: Kevmo
The bible says a day is like a thousand years to God, and a thousand years is like a day.

That doesn't make sense, and therefore ... it's nonsense.

37 posted on 12/23/2013 9:30:14 AM PST by OldNavyVet
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To: OldNavyVet

Science tells me many things that fly in the face of faith.

Science says parting of the Red Sea didn’t happen.

Science says that, if you throw three young people into a blazing furnace, they will die. Yet the three Hebrew children did not.

Science says a new life cannot start absent the male and female starter cells. Yet Mary conceived.

And lastly, science in all its glory would tell you that a brutalized man dead three days will remain dead, never to arise. Yet, praise God, on that third
day, Jesus did rise.

It is certainly conceivable for an ‘old’ earth to have been created. Unless you are like a child, trusting, believing, filled with faith, you will not see the kingdom of God.

Think about it.


38 posted on 12/23/2013 9:33:15 AM PST by RoadGumby (This is not where I belong, Take this world and give me Jesus.)
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To: tbpiper

Yes, but little known fact, Jesus was the first proponent of Cold Fusion! Merry Christmas Kevmo! Not attempting to irritate just a little holiday levity. God bless and have a wonderful Christmas.


39 posted on 12/23/2013 10:10:33 AM PST by Mastador1 (I'll take a bad dog over a good politician any day!)
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To: TruthInThoughtWordAndDeed; GarySpFc; daniel1212; CynicalBear; metmom; boatbums; ...
It seems to me that this passage shows a chain of command, not a co-equal sharing of diety.

So what is your take on the Nature of Jesus Christ? Everyone who says Jesus Christ "is not God" never reveals what they think He really is. Is Jesus Christ to you a "demigod" of some sort? A higher "created being?"

Was Thomas wrong in calling Jesus Christ God? Was he rebuked?

John 20:

26 And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, “Peace to you!” 27 Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.” 28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

40 posted on 12/23/2013 10:56:10 AM PST by redleghunter
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To: ScottfromNJ
Was Thomas wrong? Was he rebuked for calling Jesus Christ God?

John 20:

26 And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, “Peace to you!” 27 Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.”

28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

41 posted on 12/23/2013 11:12:55 AM PST by redleghunter
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To: OldNavyVet
Science today tells us that our Earth is 4.6 billion years old. Think about it.

Not really the thread topic is it? However, please present the witness accounts to the age of the earth.

42 posted on 12/23/2013 11:14:57 AM PST by redleghunter
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To: TruthInThoughtWordAndDeed

Sir, the thread article presents the evidence you are seeking.


43 posted on 12/23/2013 11:16:28 AM PST by redleghunter
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To: TruthInThoughtWordAndDeed; Kevmo; GarySpFc; daniel1212; metmom; boatbums; redleghunter
>> How do you account for 1 Corinthians 15:24-28?<<

Perhaps if we put that portion into context with the rest of the passage you wouldn’t need to ask that question. First however you have to belief that Jesus was both fully God and fully man.

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

You will notice that Paul was talking about Jesus the man. Jesus the man already has His glorified body and will soon reign as King over all the world. Once death itself has been conquered Jesus the man will turn over the whole of creation to the Godhead.

44 posted on 12/23/2013 12:54:20 PM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: redleghunter
please present the witness accounts to the age of the earth.

Steve Jones book, "Darwin's Ghost ... the Origin of Species updated." From page 195 ..."We live not a hundred million but four thousand five hundred million years since the Earth was spun from dust and rock around the sun. The evidence comes not from our own planet, but from its satellite. The Moon flew off its parent after a great impact. Because it stayed small, cold and undisturbed it gives a better picture of the past than does its parent. A quick trip by the Apollo XI mission was enough to date it. The Earth's turmoil makes it harder to trace its own origin. its oldest rocks, found in Greenland and Western Australia, are just under four billion years old."

45 posted on 12/23/2013 12:54:44 PM PST by OldNavyVet
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To: OldNavyVet

You may want to investigate what they call the “gap theory”.


46 posted on 12/23/2013 1:07:15 PM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: OldNavyVet

Steve Jones was there? Or does he have access to eyewitness accounts? Was it observable?


47 posted on 12/23/2013 3:22:59 PM PST by redleghunter
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To: TruthInThoughtWordAndDeed; Kevmo

“Does that mean that have no scripture to substantiate your claim?

You seem to be angry. Why is that? Are you angry with me for asking a direct question, or are you angry that you can’t answer it?”


Quit trolling, what you want is already in the article presented.


48 posted on 12/23/2013 3:49:20 PM PST by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: OldNavyVet
That doesn't make sense, and therefore ... it's nonsense.
***It is directly in the bible, 2Pet3:8 and Ps90:4.

2 Peter 3:8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With ... - Bible
http://www.biblehub.com/2_peter/3-8.htm‎
Now, dear friends, do not let this one thing escape your notice, that a single day is like a thousand years with the Lord and a thousand years are like a single day ...

Psalm 90:4 A thousand years in your sight are like a day that ... - Bible


http://www.biblehub.com/psalms/90-4.htm‎

For you, a thousand years are as a passing day, as brief as a few night hours. ... Because a thousand years in your eyes is like a day that is finished when it is ...
49 posted on 12/23/2013 5:31:13 PM PST by Kevmo ("A person's a person, no matter how small" ~Horton Hears a Who)
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To: redleghunter

So what is your take on the Nature of Jesus Christ? Everyone who says Jesus Christ “is not God” never reveals what they think He really is. Is Jesus Christ to you a “demigod” of some sort? A higher “created being?”
***I would prefer not to have these discussions on this thread because it is a caucus thread, not an ecumenical one. You’re inviting someone to promote their views that would qualify as heresy.

Here is a more appropriate thread for such activity

Is Jesus Christ God?

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/3104329/posts


50 posted on 12/23/2013 5:35:17 PM PST by Kevmo ("A person's a person, no matter how small" ~Horton Hears a Who)
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