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Franklin Graham: The pope is 'not the judge'
The Politico ^ | December 29, 2013 | Austin Wright

Posted on 12/29/2013 9:04:49 PM PST by 2ndDivisionVet

Franklin Graham, the son of evangelist Billy Graham, says he’s at odds on the issue of homosexuality with Pope Francis, who famously told reporters this summer, “If a person is gay and seeks God and has goodwill, who am I to judge them?”

“I think he’s right when he says he’s not the judge,” Graham said in an interview that aired Sunday on NBC’s “Meet the Press,” adding: “He’s not the judge. God is the judge.”

Graham said he feels compelled to tell people about his belief that homosexuality is a sin — and declared that he wouldn’t shift on the issue.

“God would have to shift — and God doesn’t,” he said. “God’s word is the same, yesterday and today and a million years from now.”(continued)

(Excerpt) Read more at politico.com ...


TOPICS: Catholic; Evangelical Christian; Religion & Culture; Religion & Politics
KEYWORDS: bible; billygraham; franklinegraham; franklingraham; graham; homonaziagenda; homosexualagenda; pope; popefrancis

1 posted on 12/29/2013 9:04:50 PM PST by 2ndDivisionVet
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
Franklin Graham seems confused by what the Pope said about gays. There's no difference between them at all on the issue — both believe to love the sinner and hate the sin. Pope Francis was speaking of not judging gays as individuals. We are all created in God's image and we have no right to assume someone has no chance at salvation because their sins are different than ours. But Pope Francis has never said we shouldn't judge the ACT of homosexual relationships. Promoting abominations like gay “marriage” is definitely a grave sin against God and should be publicly condemned as such with no mince words. Pope Francis said so himself on numerous occasions and I suggest Franklin Graham read the Pope's own words on those matters and not the cliff notes headline he hears from the mainstream media. I'm sure he wouldn't like it if the Pope judged all of his sermons and columns from a one sentence headline written by the liberal media.
2 posted on 12/29/2013 9:15:56 PM PST by BillyBoy (Liz Cheney's family supports gay marriage. Do you?)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
Franklin Graham, the son of evangelist Billy Graham, says he’s at odds on the issue of homosexuality with Pope Francis, who famously told reporters this summer, “If a person is gay and seeks God and has goodwill, who am I to judge them?” “I think he’s right when he says he’s not the judge,” Graham said in an interview that aired Sunday on NBC’s “Meet the Press,” adding: “He’s not the judge. God is the judge.”

Ping for later

3 posted on 12/29/2013 9:31:11 PM PST by Alex Murphy ("the defacto Leader of the FR Calvinist Protestant Brigades")
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To: BillyBoy

I don’t see any difference between their standpoints. I do see a BillyBoy who apparently wants to hype the pope as if there WAS a difference.


4 posted on 12/29/2013 9:34:05 PM PST by HiTech RedNeck (The Lion of Judah will roar again if you give him a big hug and a cheer and mean it. See my page.)
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To: Alex Murphy

It’s worth noting that, however awkwardly, this is probably the most evangelical pope the Roman Catholic church has had since Peter (if Peter is to be counted as a pope).


5 posted on 12/29/2013 9:36:12 PM PST by HiTech RedNeck (The Lion of Judah will roar again if you give him a big hug and a cheer and mean it. See my page.)
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To: Alex Murphy

PS I don’t think any of this is an accident. I think God’s right smack dab on the case.


6 posted on 12/29/2013 9:37:07 PM PST by HiTech RedNeck (The Lion of Judah will roar again if you give him a big hug and a cheer and mean it. See my page.)
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To: HiTech RedNeck

I am always on alert when tons of atheists and Christian haters are thrilled with the words of this Pope. They are hearing something that is exciting them and it is not driving them to their knees in repentance.


7 posted on 12/29/2013 9:49:59 PM PST by happyhomemaker (Rejoice in hope, be patient in tribulation, be constant in prayer. Rom 12:12)
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To: happyhomemaker

You can’t blame the pope for this, any more than you can blame God for how the devil misused scripture to try to mislead Christ.


8 posted on 12/29/2013 9:51:22 PM PST by HiTech RedNeck (The Lion of Judah will roar again if you give him a big hug and a cheer and mean it. See my page.)
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To: happyhomemaker

In other words, if we complain about this we were trusting in something less than God as a bulwark against evil.

God prefers to win over enemies (human) by making friends of them.

Calling to repentance through kindness isn’t always the instant spectacle that you might want to see. An impatient tyrant might want to see this. A God who plays His ‘game” on the bench of eternity has other views.


9 posted on 12/29/2013 9:54:32 PM PST by HiTech RedNeck (The Lion of Judah will roar again if you give him a big hug and a cheer and mean it. See my page.)
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To: BillyBoy

If you hear someone tell you God alone is the judge, it’s a good idea to pay attention.


10 posted on 12/29/2013 10:06:13 PM PST by reasonisfaith ("...because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved." (2 Thessalonians))
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To: HiTech RedNeck
Actually, it appears that Franklin Graham is the one who wants to hype himself and argue "as if there WAS a difference". Quote Graham: "He’s not the judge. God is the judge.”

Since when did Pope Francis argue God's judgment ISN'T supreme?

11 posted on 12/29/2013 10:19:34 PM PST by BillyBoy (Liz Cheney's family supports gay marriage. Do you?)
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To: HiTech RedNeck
Graham said he feels compelled to tell people about his belief that homosexuality is a sin — and declared that he wouldn’t shift on the issue.
“God would have to shift — and God doesn’t,” he said. “God’s word is the same, yesterday and today and a million years from now.”

That's the wrong conclusion to the assertion that homosexuality is a sin*: the right conclusion is "Thank God that while we were yet sinners, Jesus died for us."
(* That God would have to change to provide them salvation; their sin cannot invalidate the work of Christ nor is God changing his mind: he already said Come now, let us reason together: though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be like snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool. he came to provide an escape from the power of sin and death.)

12 posted on 12/29/2013 10:33:38 PM PST by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: BillyBoy

The right answer is contrition, and “go and sin no more”
Recognize the sin, without condemning the sinner.


13 posted on 12/29/2013 10:59:35 PM PST by Steelfish (ui)
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To: Steelfish

There is a difference between visiting and comforting the prisoner and evangelizing to them, and lying with dogs and getting up with fleas. Sadly most of us, myself included, don’t always do such a good job at understanding and acting on that difference.


14 posted on 12/29/2013 11:45:05 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: Steelfish

Exactly right. God wants us to love one another. All of us have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Anyone, no matter what they have done, can confess their sins and accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior. That is the only way to the Kingdom of Heaven. Good deeds are pleasing to God, but no matter how many good deeds you do, unless you accept Jesus as your lord and savior you are condemned to eternal hell.


15 posted on 12/30/2013 2:42:14 AM PST by ImNotLying (The Right To Bear Arms: Making good people helpless won't make bad people harmless!)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
Proclaiming that homosexual practices are sinful is not judging those whose sexual desires draw them toward those practices. Proclaiming those acts to be sinful is an act of love; and the failure to proclaim the acts sinful (or toleration of those acts) is at best an act of indifference and at worst an act of hate.
The Divine consequences of homosexual acts are known only to God.
16 posted on 12/30/2013 3:53:31 AM PST by quadrant (1o)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Graham should be careful discussing his belief on homosexuals...he might not land that new show in A&E!!


17 posted on 12/30/2013 5:27:58 AM PST by ThePatriotsFlag (...and to the Republic for which it stood.)
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To: BillyBoy

Billy Boy needs to talk to his daddy and let him tell him what the Pope meant. Sometimes Billy Boy makes no sense.


18 posted on 12/30/2013 7:46:18 AM PST by NKP_Vet ("Rather than love, than money, than fame, then give truth" ~ Henry David Thoreau)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
Once again the "unchanging" Church knuckles under, those awful Fundamentalist Protestants stay true.

The Church needs to replace its old motto of "always the same" with "always evolving."

19 posted on 12/30/2013 7:49:35 AM PST by Zionist Conspirator (The Left: speaking power to truth since Shevirat HaKelim.)
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To: happyhomemaker
I am always on alert when tons of atheists and Christian haters are thrilled with the words of this Pope. They are hearing something that is exciting them and it is not driving them to their knees in repentance.

Completely agree. The reaction isn't "Gee, that makes a lot of sense....I need to get my life right with God". It's "I really like this guy because he accepts my lifestyle." At least that's the spin that's being put on it.

20 posted on 12/30/2013 7:53:00 AM PST by DouglasKC
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To: ImNotLying

Brothers and sisters, let us acknowledge our sins, and so prepare ourselves to celebrate the sacred mysteries.

I confess to almighty God
and to you my brothers and sisters,
that I have greatly sinned,
in my thoughts and in my words,
in what I have done and in what I have failed to do,
through my fault, through my fault,
through my most grievous fault;
therefore I ask blessed Mary ever-virgin,
all the Angels and Saints, and you my
brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord
our God.

May almighty God have mercy on us, forgive of our
sins, and bring us to everlasting life. Amen.


21 posted on 12/30/2013 8:02:01 AM PST by NKP_Vet ("Rather than love, than money, than fame, then give truth" ~ Henry David Thoreau)
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To: Zionist Conspirator

Once again the “unchanging” Church knuckles under, those awful Fundamentalist Protestants stay true.
The Church needs to replace its old motto of “always the same” with “always evolving.”

yea like Mike Murdock, Swaggert, Hines, etc etc and when was the last time your boy Joel spoke of sin.

All sinners are welcomed into the church, yet they must repent and change their ways like all of us. If only non-sinners went to church, churches would be empty


22 posted on 12/30/2013 8:57:54 AM PST by Undecided 2012
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To: Alex Murphy

Perhaps Graham was mistranslated.


23 posted on 12/30/2013 9:03:38 AM PST by Colonel_Flagg (Some people meet their heroes. I raised mine. Go Army.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Actually there is a difference.. Graham is willing to tell them they will die in their sin and go to hell .....The pope well who is he to judge ??


24 posted on 12/30/2013 9:19:48 AM PST by RnMomof7
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To: HiTech RedNeck

When the Pope speaks from a special chair—his words are infalible and reflect the will of God. But when he’s not, its just his opinion.


25 posted on 12/30/2013 12:32:19 PM PST by Forward the Light Brigade (Into the Jaws of H*ll)
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To: RnMomof7

You’ve hit the nail on the head for those of us who are Catholic and find the “Who am I to judge?” comment troubling.


26 posted on 12/30/2013 3:17:15 PM PST by piusv
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To: Zionist Conspirator

You know where I stand on changes in the Church. However, the Church has not changed in its doctrine re: homosexual acts. The problem is the impression/message that certain comments give/send, certain liberal (”Wuerl”) appointments made by Francis, the concern that there could be changes on the horizon, the fact that a leading gay and lesbian magazine chose Francis as Person of the Year, etc.

As of now, however, there have been no official change.


27 posted on 12/30/2013 3:23:09 PM PST by piusv
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To: Forward the Light Brigade

It’s ultimately tradition that follows on which selects what’s “ex cathedra” anyhow... so the problem of official doctrine still isn’t actually solved, it is only consensused. We have ongoing intrigue here, though kept in bounds by the Lord.


28 posted on 12/30/2013 5:31:51 PM PST by HiTech RedNeck (The Lion of Judah will roar again if you give him a big hug and a cheer and mean it. See my page.)
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To: piusv

Agh, if there is not an obligatory hellfire with the message, it’s gotta be WRONG.

Uh, I don’t think so.


29 posted on 12/30/2013 5:33:31 PM PST by HiTech RedNeck (The Lion of Judah will roar again if you give him a big hug and a cheer and mean it. See my page.)
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To: RnMomof7

That is the same thing I was thinking. You said it better. It is the part the Pope did not finish with that excites the lefties.


30 posted on 12/30/2013 5:38:42 PM PST by dforest
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
Son of a Preacher Man. Like Marjoe, who betrayed the trade!


31 posted on 12/30/2013 5:42:50 PM PST by Revolting cat! (Bad things are wrong! Ice cream is delicious!)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

32 posted on 12/30/2013 5:43:51 PM PST by Revolting cat! (Bad things are wrong! Ice cream is delicious!)
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To: HiTech RedNeck

Not so much a hellfire message but the obligatory full Catholic teaching. All too often, Francis only speaks part of the Truth. Sometimes, he speaks lies (as in his latest comment about Mary). Both cause serious problems.


33 posted on 12/30/2013 6:35:45 PM PST by piusv
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To: piusv

If someone wants to hear the whole 9 yards of Catholic theologizing, that someone can always look it up online. Sometimes a heavy immediate theology dump is not the grace God has in mind. Jesus wasn’t into such things; why should we Christians be more arrogant?


34 posted on 12/31/2013 3:42:27 AM PST by HiTech RedNeck (The Lion of Judah will roar again if you give him a big hug and a cheer and mean it. See my page.)
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To: HiTech RedNeck

Jesus was clear in what He meant (even to the point of not holding back “hard sayings”). Popes have a responsibility to give a clear Catholic response. Francis is sorely lacking in his responsibility. The fruits of which are clear.


35 posted on 12/31/2013 5:02:58 AM PST by piusv
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To: piusv

If he is not allowed to judge homosexuals, then he is not allowed to judge homosexual priests who molest boys.
You can either judge or not.


36 posted on 12/31/2013 5:07:09 AM PST by AppyPappy (Obama: What did I not know and when did I not know it?)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet; Mrs. Don-o

Let me try to do this as delicately as I can.

I fervently wish that someone would ask the Pope, “Is it right and proper for a man to join his genital to the oral or anal cavity of another man? Is it right and proper for a woman to stimulate the genitals of another woman?”

Phil Robertson laid it on the line with his use of graphic language. He actually set up the Pope quite well. Now, if a reporter will just follow up, some clarity can be brought. This matter of the difference is orientation / temptation and conduct / behavior is widely ignored and must be brought forth forcefully, if graphically.


37 posted on 12/31/2013 5:47:30 AM PST by don-o (He will not share His glory and He will NOT be mocked! Blessed be the name of the Lord forever!)
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To: HiTech RedNeck
If someone wants to hear the whole 9 yards of Catholic theologizing, that someone can always look it up online.

Ain't nobody got time fo' dat.

Most of all the msm who must cater to the gnat like attention span of their consumers.

38 posted on 12/31/2013 5:53:35 AM PST by don-o (He will not share His glory and He will NOT be mocked! Blessed be the name of the Lord forever!)
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To: don-o

I’m not sure whether you’re being serious or mocking those of us who call for clarity in Church teaching.


39 posted on 12/31/2013 6:16:53 AM PST by piusv
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To: piusv

Serious as a heart attack.

The actual teaching is clear already. The presentation is not, as far as mass consumption. Some manner is forced feeding is indicated.


40 posted on 12/31/2013 6:52:53 AM PST by don-o (He will not share His glory and He will NOT be mocked! Blessed be the name of the Lord forever!)
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To: don-o

Although I agree with you regarding the presentation, I’m not so sure I’m looking for graphic explanations. We do not need extreme clarifications. We just need the man in white to actually speak unequivocally Catholic.


41 posted on 12/31/2013 7:48:37 AM PST by piusv
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To: piusv

Jesus tailored His message to His time and audience.

You want to throw the whole book at anyone who brings up the issue, and that, I must say frankly, is a sign of pride. If the message is helpful towards those who would eventually yield to God, then we don’t need it to be encyclopedic every single solitary stinking time!


42 posted on 12/31/2013 8:13:07 AM PST by HiTech RedNeck (The Lion of Judah will roar again if you give him a big hug and a cheer and mean it. See my page.)
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To: piusv

Which is not always authentic biblical.

The accepted Catholic attitude, as best as I have been able to observe, is to assume that there’s little or nothing to do about the “temptation” but to swear to singlehood.

This sells the power of God short. Authentic biblicism promotes the power of God shamelessly.

Not to put too fine a point on it, the manhood needs to be restored to the “gay” (sad) man. GOD CAN READILY DO THAT WHEN CALLED UPON IN EARNEST but I think Catholic counseling norms are not up to it today, again based on what I have seen. As a Crazy Evangelical I do not have those shackles.


43 posted on 12/31/2013 8:17:59 AM PST by HiTech RedNeck (The Lion of Judah will roar again if you give him a big hug and a cheer and mean it. See my page.)
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To: Zionist Conspirator; 2ndDivisionVet; don-o

Seems to me like

You're welcome!

44 posted on 12/31/2013 8:55:40 AM PST by Mrs. Don-o (Department of Redundancy Department.)
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To: HiTech RedNeck

You’re assuming. “IF” is a big if. Also, Jesus didn’t hold back. He even let disciples leave him when he said hard sayings they didn’t like.

I’m not looking for Bible thumping, just a complete Catholic POV...not one that leads others to believe that somehow Catholic teaching changed. We should always be clear and not mislead.

You have your opinion. I have mine. No need to judge signs of pride. I haven’t judged you, have I?


45 posted on 12/31/2013 9:01:38 AM PST by piusv
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To: HiTech RedNeck; Zionist Conspirator; 2ndDivisionVet; don-o
There's also this of interest to you, to me, and maybe to Franklin Graham:

Pope Francis 'Shocked' by Gay Adoption: Will TIME Take Back Its Person of the Year Award? (Link)

46 posted on 12/31/2013 9:25:11 AM PST by Mrs. Don-o (Credulity means believing something on little evidence, on no evidence, or against the evidence.)
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