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Does Fox News have a thing for Joel Osteen or Rick Warren? Where are the Messianic Jewish Rabbis?
1/2/2013 | Laissez-Faire Capitalist

Posted on 01/02/2014 10:27:01 AM PST by Laissez-faire capitalist

Is it me, or has Joel Osteen been interviewed on Fox News or been on there or featured on there more than once or twice in the past two or three years? What about father Morris, Rick Warren or the Grahams? Same with them, too?

Where are the Calvinist preachers, the Messianic Jewish Rabbis, either male or female (since those who are of the Charismatic, WOF persuasion believe that ministry is open to both males and females and thus wouldn't stop at just male messianic rabbis), etc?


TOPICS: Catholic; Charismatic Christian; Current Events; Evangelical Christian; General Discusssion; Mainline Protestant; Religion & Culture; Religion & Politics
KEYWORDS: ybpdln

1 posted on 01/02/2014 10:27:01 AM PST by Laissez-faire capitalist
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

The need to write books and go on book tours.


2 posted on 01/02/2014 10:28:17 AM PST by SubMareener (Save us from Quarterly Freepathons! Become a MONTHLY DONOR!)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist; All

Osteen and Warren - both there at the end of 2013...


3 posted on 01/02/2014 10:28:38 AM PST by Laissez-faire capitalist
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

Joel Osteen and Rick Warren are in for themselves. Publicity brings in cash and FoxNews has fallen for this.


4 posted on 01/02/2014 10:28:44 AM PST by Steelfish (ui)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist; All

Oops. Sory for the 1/2/2013 posting.

Still stuck on 2013. LOL.


5 posted on 01/02/2014 10:29:38 AM PST by Laissez-faire capitalist
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To: Steelfish

4 words

purpose driven self promotion!


6 posted on 01/02/2014 10:34:40 AM PST by MeshugeMikey ( a Safe..and Sane....2014 To All!)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist
Is it me, or has Joel Osteen been interviewed on Fox News or been on there or featured on there more than once or twice in the past two or three years? What about father Morris, Rick Warren or the Grahams? Same with them, too?

These might help:
Evangelical Christian Leaders Being Recruited for Globalist Agendas
Whispers about the Council on Foregin Relations (Rick Warren Alert)
The last Rick Warren column
Rick Warren: Is he or isn't he? [Warren's membership in the Council on Foreign Relations]
The purpose-driven pastor (Rick Warren calls Christian fundamentalists an enemy)

7 posted on 01/02/2014 10:39:47 AM PST by Alex Murphy ("the defacto Leader of the FR Calvinist Protestant Brigades")
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To: markomalley; DocRock; del4hope; Alex Murphy; Gamecock; Dr. Eckleburg; jude24; Ottofire; fishtank; ..
Why Indeed?!?

___________________________________________________________________________________

YBPDLN* Ping List Ping!

The YBPDLN Ping List is generally published infrequently but based on the exploits of the megachurch pastors posts can spike for a season. If you would like on or off of this list please FReepmail me.

Because 18,000 People Can’t be wrong!

*YBPDLN=Your Best Purpose Driven Life Now

8 posted on 01/02/2014 10:44:33 AM PST by Gamecock (Celebrating 20,000 posts of dubious quality.)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

Thanks for asking because this is right up my ally.

I am not Catholic, I don’t have any denomination, just a plain Christian saved by the Grace and Blood of Jesus

I am very troubled by both Rick Warren and Joel Osteen!

Joel will not even discuss sin at his services, he apparently is afraid to offend anybody because that might hurt feelings??

Oprah Winfrey loves Joel Osteen because he does not tell her that her lifestyle is unacceptable to God/Christ

Pro abortion and pro gay folks are comfortable in his services because he does not tell them their lifestyle is unacceptable to God.

The Bible tells them that their lives are unacceptable, but Joel will not.

I actually heard him quote the scripture...let him without sin cast the first stone, he went on to were he asked the girl...Where are your accusers?

He actually left off , GO AND SIN NO MORE

Yes I am a dirty rotten sinner saved by Grace! Deserving of hell fire , thanks to Jesus for His grace!

On Larry King a number of years ago he would not say that abortion or homosexuality was a sin.

When pressed the fifth time on homosexuality, he finally conceded that it was not God`s best????

On Rick Warren...He openly worked against Dr Dobson, Tony Perkins, Franklin Graham and Social Conservatives in General

I have no use for either of them, they are not on my side as I see it

Both helped Obama get elected, as far as I am concerned both are giving OK to removal of God/Christ from public square etc, are fine with abortion and teaching children that homosexuality are just fine.\

I want nothing to do with either of them


9 posted on 01/02/2014 10:46:40 AM PST by Friendofgeorge ( Palin 2016 or bust)
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To: Friendofgeorge

Discernment.
i am catholic and i dont feel right abt either of them.
i am also feeling odd abt our new pope. still watching....


10 posted on 01/02/2014 10:55:38 AM PST by Donnafrflorida (Thru HIM all things are possible.)
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To: Steelfish
"Joel Osteen and Rick Warren are in for themselves."

While I certainly have my differences with Rick Warren, I don't think he belongs in the same category as Osteen. Generally, Warren gives a pretty orthodox Christian account of himself when he's on these news programs. It's what he does when there are no cameras around and his for-profit programs and money schemes that gives me problems. Osteen doesn't give a biblical Christian witness in ANY arena. I have sincerely doubts that he's ever even read the entire bible. He comes off to me as a feel good, prosperity, motivational speaker who tries to cloth himself in Christian wrappings.

It seems to me the problem with these mega pseudo-Christians it that they are much more concerned about not offending anyone than preaching the whole Gospel. This despite that fact that the NT repeatedly says that the Gospel with be offensive to the world - you can't preach the true Gospel without offending the world. That may be bad for the pocketbook but it's great for the soul.

11 posted on 01/02/2014 11:26:26 AM PST by circlecity
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To: Alex Murphy

Rick Warren is in CA. He has no real freedom but is governed by the CA socialist majority.


12 posted on 01/02/2014 12:33:52 PM PST by Theodore R. (People in TX in 2014: Cornball and George P.!)
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To: Donnafrflorida

I hear you on Pope also

As a NON Catholic though I do get a lot out of a Catholic Program I watch Sundays FOOD FOR LIFE TV MINISTRY, its out of Canada

I guess they would be Charismatic Catholics, and I know I open myself up to hits from establishment Catholics

Father Bob McDougal, Father Bedard, both with the Lord, but show continues, Charismatic Catholic Center Houstan Texas, fabulous folks, I love them, they Love Jesus


13 posted on 01/02/2014 12:58:22 PM PST by Friendofgeorge ( Palin 2016 or bust)
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To: circlecity

He told folks it was OK to vote for Obama

Said repeatedly...”I am pro life but”

Should be on his headstone when he goes for his reward

I have zero use for him

Sorry JMHO


14 posted on 01/02/2014 1:01:04 PM PST by Friendofgeorge ( Palin 2016 or bust)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

Calvinist Preachers?

What happened to the Gospel?

Why is it that Calvinism is Considered to trump the Truth of the Bible?

If it’s in the Bible, we don’t need a Doctrine preach it, nor pamphlets, or points, or “litmus tests” for people to confess to join a church.

Frankly, “Calvinists” are about as bad for Christianity as the “Prosperity” preachers. Both pervert the Gospel, one for reasons of Money (prosperity preachers) and the other for reasons of perceived self-worth (THE Chosen)


15 posted on 01/02/2014 1:26:53 PM PST by BereanBrain
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To: circlecity

What about Warren’s giving Clinton/Gore a platform to speak, when they were advocating abortion, and Warren could not muster the courage to ASK a question about it?

Blood on HIS hands JUST to draw a crowd.


16 posted on 01/02/2014 1:28:40 PM PST by BereanBrain
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

Brit Hume interviewed Lon Solomon, a Jewish believer who pastors a megachurch in a Virginia suburb of DC. Brit attended the church for a time with his wife before Brit retired from his anchor position at FOX News.

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXQMNB5w7zI

Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wjj-y7SKR0

The interview aired over Christmas break when they were running pre-recorded programming.


17 posted on 01/02/2014 1:35:17 PM PST by HokieMom (Pacepa : Can the U.S. afford a president who can't recognize anti-Americanism?)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

They prefer their religious not to be dynamic spokesmen for the Christian positions on too much of anything.


18 posted on 01/02/2014 2:08:46 PM PST by xzins ( Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Those who truly support our troops pray for victory!)
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To: BereanBrain

The problem runs far, far deeper. It is what famous English essayist Hillaire Belloc wrote in “The Great Heresies,” namely, that Protestantism spawned a “cluster of heresies.”


19 posted on 01/02/2014 2:10:56 PM PST by Steelfish (ui)
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To: BereanBrain; Laissez-faire capitalist

I thought that “Calvinism” had essentially disappeared into (perhaps buried by) Methodism & Presbyterianism, at best. Or into Congregationalists & its semi-religious/secularist descendants.


20 posted on 01/02/2014 2:26:14 PM PST by GreyFriar (Spearhead - 3rd Armored Division 75-78 & 83-87)
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To: BereanBrain

” Both pervert the Gospel, one for reasons of Money (prosperity preachers) and the other for reasons of perceived self-worth (THE Chosen)”


IOW, Luther, Calvin, Knox, Spurgeon, Henry, Own, the Puritans, the Huguenots, the Presbyterians, and so forth, are all egomaniacs because they confess the following:

Joh_15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.


21 posted on 01/02/2014 3:24:52 PM PST by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: GreyFriar

“I thought that “Calvinism” had essentially disappeared into (perhaps buried by) Methodism & Presbyterianism, at best. Or into Congregationalists & its semi-religious/secularist descendants.”


You thought wrong. And listing “Presbyterianism” as something that “buried Calvinism” seems odd. All the Reformed Presbyterian churches are, by definition, Calvinist.


22 posted on 01/02/2014 3:27:29 PM PST by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: GreyFriar
I thought that “Calvinism” had essentially disappeared into (perhaps buried by) Methodism & Presbyterianism, at best. Or into Congregationalists & its semi-religious/secularist descendants.

Interesting, the strange ideas people get.

23 posted on 01/02/2014 4:16:57 PM PST by Lee N. Field ("You keep using that verse, but I do not think it means what you think it means.")
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To: Lee N. Field

Perhaps strange because I don’t see ‘the first church of Calvinism’ in any town, one does find Methodist and other churches that grew out of Calvinism. But never hear much mention of Calvin, or Swingel, others from the 15th & 16th Century, except for Henry VIII.


24 posted on 01/02/2014 4:33:32 PM PST by GreyFriar (Spearhead - 3rd Armored Division 75-78 & 83-87)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

Osteen and Warren Calvinist?


25 posted on 01/02/2014 4:41:50 PM PST by TNoldman (AN AMERICAN FOR A MUSLIM/BHO FREE AMERICA.)
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To: GreyFriar

Methodists aren’t Calvinists - about as far from it as you can get.

Calvinism was the root for Presbyterians, many Baptists, and the Dutch, French, and German Reformed. And, the original Anglicans pre-Elizabethian Compromise. Methodists were a schism from the Anglicans, but they certainly didn’t bring Calvinist influences with them.


26 posted on 01/02/2014 5:02:44 PM PST by PAR35
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To: GreyFriar

Calvinism isn’t a denomination, nor is it limited to the Orthodox Presbyterians (but don’t confuse us for the PCUSA). You will find Calvinists heavily amongst the Baptists, for example, such as Dr. John Piper.


27 posted on 01/02/2014 5:16:08 PM PST by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

There is a difference between quoting verses and a constructed framework of belief.

I believe the bible, taken on it’s WHOLE council, does not need any HELP (constructions on top of it). This is what SOLA SCRIPTURA MEANS!

You picked a verse that supports one side of the debate, you did not pick one that supports the other side, nor did you produce a verse from both sides of the debate.

ANYBODY can quote a scripture that supports their side (even Satan, our adversary).

ANYONE that supplants the whole council of the Bible with a framework on top of it is in error, no matter WHO they are.

The REASON Calvinism exists is faulty logic. That is, some believe God the Creator of our Universe, Time and each and every law of the universe, is somehow bound by the laws of this universe, i.e. that God is bound by the law of cause and effect. He is NOT! Neither is the law of cause and effect 100% demonstrated in our physical universe, in the normal way we humans think of it.

God is not merely a man, living within time, He transcends time. He knows the beginning from the end because he is the Alpha and Omega. He does not sit waiting for what WILL happen, He already KNOWS because he can see the future as easy as a man can look left and right.

In this way, God can know the chosen, and yet not effect the result. In other words, there is no problem with limited atonement, nor the issue of double predestination because God does not affect our destiny - we do - but he knows our destiny before we are born.

Calvinism was a creation to reconcile the scriptures that talk about chosen and predestination vs the belief of men, and the will of God that none should perish.... If God exists in time as we do, instead of being outside of time, then this is an issue that can’t be explained in scripture (other than ignoring the scriptures that contradict classic Calvinism).

The answer is God is NOT bound by the almost law of Cause and Effect that he himself created when he created our universe.

As far as your list of believers in Calvinism, They cannot be saved by their belief or unbelief in TULIP, the bible is quite clear on what a man must do to be saved. Lets us hope that your list of people all were as familiar with those scriptures as you are with John 15:16.

It is NOT the will of God that ANY should perish, but All come to repentance. God SO loved the WORLD that he gave His one and only Son that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life.

How can you reconcile the God that said “Behold, I stand at the door knocking, and any man that hears my voice and open the door, I will come to him” with John 15:16? You can’t if you believe God is limited the way mankind is. You end up as Calvin did ignoring the Love of God for his Creation.

It’s NOT a Behold I bring Good News to ALL PEOPLE. With Calvin, it’s I Bring Good News to the Chosen.

Calvinism is NOT the Gospel. Calvinism is NOT good news.

Look at the way Calvin treated his enemies vs Jesus treated his. Jesus called Judas “friend” after Judas betrayed him. How did Calvin Treat Michael Servetus?


28 posted on 01/02/2014 10:06:08 PM PST by BereanBrain
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To: BereanBrain

“I believe the bible, taken on it’s WHOLE council, does not need any HELP (constructions on top of it). This is what SOLA SCRIPTURA MEANS!”


Well duh, who do you think championed the solas in the first place? The same Reformers whom you just got done accusing of being perverters of the Gospel, and millions more who all lived and died within the past few hundred years, including a 100,000 Huguenots who were murdered for their faith in the Netherlands alone. Are they all in hell because they were eeeevil Calvinists? And what do you think they were all writing about? When Luther was writing “On the Bondage of the Will,” and Calvin his Institutes of the Christian Religion, do you think they were just staring at their navels? Or do you think they were trying to understand the “whole” of scripture?

I have a surprise for you. We have entire catechisms and systematic theologies and church confessions detailing the minutia of everything we believe and why we believe it, with scripture proof.

You think you were the only one that believes in the Bible or something?

“In this way, God can know the chosen, and yet not effect the result. In other words, there is no problem with limited atonement, nor the issue of double predestination because God does not affect our destiny - we do - but he knows our destiny before we are born.”


IOW, you think the scripture is speaking in code. It’s not that hard for the inspired writers to write “Well, God did not predestinate anything, He just foresaw what we would do or believe and predestinated an already foreseen outcome, or, perhaps, our rewards.”

But read the scripture:

“But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
(Joh 6:64-65)

Where do you read, “I foreknew that you would not believe, so God did not predestinate you to be the elect”? The reason offered for their unbelief isn’t God foreknowing their disbelief; it is God foreknowing His own decision not to grant it to them to believe. Christ KNEW they would not believe, and that is why He said “that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.

” and the will of God that none should perish”


You’re referencing:

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

But read the context. It is “toward you,” or “longsuffering to us-ward” as the KJV puts it. The previous passages separate the “you” and the “they,” the people who have been reserved for wrath:

“That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.”
(2Pe 3:2-7)

The promise isn’t that God is waiting patiently to save these “ungodly men” or “last day scoffers” who have judgment already reserved against them. It is to remind the faithful that the time of their suffering will eventually come to an end, but that the reason why God seems “slow” is due to His desire to save every last one of “us,” the sheep of God whom God foreknew and predestinated from before the foundation of the world.

And this “predestination” is not based on any foreknowledge of our future good works, or even future belief, but is specifically decided upon by God’s mercy:

“That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.”
(Rom 9:8-16)

Note the words “Not of works... but of God who calleth.” So salvation is according to election, and not by works. To which Paul’s hypothetical opponent complains twice:

“Is there unrighteousness with God?”

And a little later:

Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

If the problem that Paul’s hypothetical opponent had was merely in not understanding metaphysics, Paul could have cleared it up by simply giving your explanation. Instead, on both occasions, Paul replies by asserting the sovereign right of God to “have mercy on whom He will have mercy.”

Note also the line “Not of him that wills, nor him that runs, but God who has mercy.” Now, who believes but he who does it willingly? And what is “running” if not as another word for “works”? So if salvation is by ‘God who has mercy,’ the correct interpretation is that the whole of salvation belongs to God’s mercy, who “works in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure,” reveals it to us that Christ is the Savior, and brings us infallibly to salvation, as all those whom the Father has given to the Son, do come:

Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

“As far as your list of believers in Calvinism, They cannot be saved by their belief or unbelief in TULIP, the bible is quite clear on what a man must do to be saved. “


Certainly they are justified by faith, and none whom God has loved since before the foundation of the world can fail to come. Note the golden line of salvation:

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Predestination is only one part of salvation. It is the preparation of grace, which must occur in time, infallibly, as all those “whom He did predestinate” He calls, and them He calls are justified (by faith), and all those whom He justifies He glorifies.

“God SO loved the WORLD that he gave His one and only Son that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life.”


Certainly, God loves the “World,” but what is the world? All the people already in hell when Christ arrived? Or is it for the sheep of God elected out of the world?

Joh_17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

“How can you reconcile the God that said “Behold, I stand at the door knocking, and any man that hears my voice and open the door, I will come to him” with John 15:16? You can’t if you believe God is limited the way mankind is. “


I reconcile it the way I reconcile everything. I point out that God often calls us to repent, or to “circumcise” our own hearts:

Deu_10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

And then later promises that He will do it Himself:

Deu_30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Do we conclude that we do not believe, or repent, or will, and do? Or, in the other direction, do we believe that God is impotent, and does not do what He claims? No, we conclude this, Augustine’s famous prayer which aroused the hate of the Pelagians and Semi-Pelagians of his era:

“Oh God, grant what Thou commandest, and command what Thou dost desire,”

O Mysterious God of grace! He commands us what He wills, and yet, gives to us what He commands!

A fairer explanation than the metaphysical theories of yours, which are nowhere explained in the scripture, eh? Much better than assuming that “It is not of Him that wills, nor Him that runs, but God who has mercy,” really means “It is not of God who has mercy, but man who wills and man who runs, or meets Him halfway!”

“God does not affect our destiny - we do -”


You sure?

Deu 32:39 “’See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.

Pro 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD.

Pro 16:4 The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.

1Sa 2:6-8 The LORD kills and brings to life; he brings down to Sheol and raises up. The LORD makes poor and makes rich; he brings low and he exalts. He raises up the poor from the dust; he lifts the needy from the ash heap to make them sit with princes and inherit a seat of honor. For the pillars of the earth are the LORD’s, and on them he has set the world.

Job 9:12 Behold, he snatches away; who can turn him back? Who will say to him, ‘What are you doing?’

Job 12:6-10 The tents of robbers are at peace, and those who provoke God are secure, who bring their god in their hand. “But ask the beasts, and they will teach you; the birds of the heavens, and they will tell you; or the bushes of the earth, and they will teach you; and the fish of the sea will declare to you. Who among all these does not know that the hand of the LORD has done this? In his hand is the life of every living thing and the breath of all mankind.

Psa 33:11 The counsel of the LORD stands forever, the plans of his heart to all generations.

Psa 115:3 Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases.

Psa 135:6 Whatever the LORD pleases, he does, in heaven and on earth, in the seas and all deeps.

Isa 14:24 The LORD of hosts has sworn: “As I have planned, so shall it be, and as I have purposed, so shall it stand,

Isa 45:7 I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the LORD, who does all these things.

Eph 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

Does this sound like the God who lets random chance reign supreme? Or does He “work all things according to the counsel of His will”?

“How did Calvin Treat Michael Servetus?”


How did Luther treat Servetus, who said nothing different than Calvin in his books? What about Augustine? What about Charles Spurgeon? What about hundreds of thousands of others? But as for Servetus, he was wanted dead by both Catholics and Protestants alike, since he was writing and teaching the denial of the Trinity. In Calvin’s defense, after doing his best to sort Servetus out, he recommended the more merciful beheading. Though, the people who wanted him burned at the stake won the day. Not bad for a man of the 16th century, eh?


29 posted on 01/02/2014 11:55:53 PM PST by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

Just as the Catholic church started from the bible, but moved to errors in doctrine, so has the Reformation movement.

Sola Scriptura means theological constructs such as Calvinism, or Replacement Theology should not be taught.

If it can’t be determined beyond a doubt from scripture, then it should not be taught.

I don’t care about history, or the glorification of past theologians. Again, these have no bearing on scripture. It is equivalent to tradition.

I challenge you to search the bible for verses that support man’s responsibility to believe, and the desire of God to redeem his creation. There are many verses you can find whilst reading the bible, instead of Catechisms.

Suppose for example, I created Catechism that all followers learned that quoted scriptures (you have said this is what Calvinists “have”). If a believer DOES NOT READ HIS BIBLE, how will he know if a scripture does not agree with the Catechisms?

I attended a Orthodox Presbyterian Church for 10+ years - I am familiar with Reformation Theology.

I stand on Sola Scriptura, nothing else.

Why? Catechisms are not God Breathed. Not Scripture. People end up with their identity in Calvinism and The Reformation, rather than in Christ.

God has not double pre determined the believer to heaven and by reduction, the unbeliever to Hell. If you really believe this, why do you argue with anyone? Why share the Gospel?


30 posted on 01/03/2014 11:00:25 AM PST by BereanBrain
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To: BereanBrain

“Sola Scriptura means theological constructs such as Calvinism, or Replacement Theology should not be taught.”


Strange, since you didn’t spend two seconds responding to any of the scripture I provided. So much for Sola Scriptura, eh?

“I attended a Orthodox Presbyterian Church for 10+ years - I am familiar with Reformation Theology.”


I’ve been studying Reformed Theology for maybe... Hmmm, 7 or 8 months, yet even I can recognize you’re asking elementary questions. After 10 years, one would think you’d move past the basics, at least.

“I challenge you to search the bible for verses that support man’s responsibility to believe, and the desire of God to redeem his creation.”

Okay, let’s look at one:

Mar_16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Do you propose that this proves you have an absolute ability to believe? After all, you are commanded to. You must have the ability to obey it, after all. Yet, what does the scripture say?:

“no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost” (1 Co 12:3).

Without the Holy Ghost, you cannot confess that Jesus is Lord at all. Where is your “ability” then? It’s crushed to pieces and must submit to the will of God, through whom only is a man able to believe in the Son:

Mat_16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Joh_3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

All your verses prove is man’s responsibility. Not his ability.


31 posted on 01/03/2014 5:24:48 PM PST by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

I did not respond to your verses lifted out of context. for example, your quote

Pro 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD.

If you are to use this as a defense of Calvinism and attack on Free Will, then you would be using this scripture out of context, in a wooden sense, bent to your purposes. Not only that, it would imply a fatalistic universes, where there is NO FREE WILL, after all, EVERY DECISION is from the LORD.

So then, how is man responsible for the Fall, or his sin?

No, none can come to God but BY the Holy Spirit. But this does NOT mean the Holy Spirit forced the action any more than a road can force a motorist to follow it.

Gifts given from heaven can (and are) rejected. A man cannot receive from heaven unless it is given. This however, does NOT imply that it is impossible to reject a gift. (The idea that you cannot reject this gift is called Irresistible Grace by Calvinists).

In this verse, Jesus himself, is speaking about God’s Chosen People —
Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not.

Now, can the Holy Spirit really be resisted, as Jesus is saying the Jews resisted God? Yes, if you doubt read Romans chapter 1 carefully. It talks about how God has struggled with men, and what their destiny will be if they continue to reject the Truth and embrace darkness.

Mankind has a responsibility because he has a choice to make.
God is without darkness. He is perfect, all powerful. He cannot be resisted IF he does not GIVE man free will. However, he obviously has given man free will.

Without the Holy Spirit, no man can confess Jesus is Lord. There are however, many cases where men reject and/or quench the Holy Spirit.

1 Timothy 2
King James Version (KJV)
2 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Now how is it that God’s will is that ALL MEN be saved, and yet some be damned?

THE ONLY LOGICAL answer is that God allows man to have free will, because we all know God is all powerful, and could determine ALL MEN to be saved, if he so desired. (note the verse starts with the premise that God’s will is that all men be saved).


32 posted on 01/03/2014 9:41:45 PM PST by BereanBrain
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To: BereanBrain; All

“If you are to use this as a defense of Calvinism and attack on Free Will, then you would be using this scripture out of context, in a wooden sense, bent to your purposes. Not only that, it would imply a fatalistic universes, where there is NO FREE WILL, after all, EVERY DECISION is from the LORD.”


It was in response to you claiming that God plays no part in our destinies. Therefore, I showed that not even matters of “chance” avoid the decree of God. Thus, it is true, ‘every decision’ is from God. Consequently, though, it does “knock free will flat,” as Luther puts it:

“… God foreknows nothing contingently, but that He foresees, purposes and does all things according to His own immutable, eternal and infallible will. This bombshell knocks free-will flat, and utterly shatters it; so that those who want to assert it… must deny my bombshell.” (Martin Luther, The Bondage of the Will, Eds. J. I. Packer and O. R. Johnston. Pg. 80)

Since God “works all things according to His own purpose,” it cannot be said that such a thing as “free-will” exists. Otherwise it would have said, “who works all things according to our foreseen merits or faith, or according to the circumstances of the roll of the dice.” God’s knowledge of the future is not contingent, nor is His foreknowledge defective in any way. He knows all things, before they happen, and if something occurs in time, even awful things, we must conclude that either God was ignorant of it, He was powerless to stop it, or else He approved it. And if God approves it, and “works all things” according to His own purpose, we must from thence conclude that all events occur according to His own approval, according to the purpose of His will. So when Paul declares that: “All things work unto good for those who love God, who are the called according to His purpose,” we can rightly believe that even our personal tragedies, poor choices and failures work, in some mysterious way, for our own benefit, according to the plan of God, as none of it happens by chance, but is safely within the hand of God who not only foresaw it, but before determined that it would happen.

Hence we say that God “kills,” and gives life, He “snatches away,” and no one can say ‘What doest thou?” He raises up, He raises down. In His hand is the heart of the king, which He turns whichever way He pleases. This is not a God whose power is limited, or who does not assert His will over the wills of men. This is the God who “wills all things” according to His own purpose.

You may keep your “will” of course, as you believe, and do, and move, according to your own whims. But you cannot assume that your will is free, and that you can ever do anything contrary to the secret counsel of God.

When it comes to sin, though God is not the author of sin, and so the power of sin is in the sinner, yet when they sin, and the outcome of their sin, and even the circumstances that led up to their sin, is absolutely out of their power, so that God who regulates the darkness, turns their evil acts always towards His own good, according to “His own purpose,” as mysterious as it may be. And even raises them up for that very purpose to begin with, when He could have simply killed them in the womb, and made is so that they never existed at all.

For example:

“For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.”(Act 4:27-28)

The word translated “determined before” is the same for predestination. All of these events were not “random,” but were decreed by God that they would happen, even before the foundation of the world.

More examples, of evil men, and of evil angels, all their actions within the plan of God and determined before hand by God, so that nothing is left to chance:

Gen 45:5 And now do not be distressed or angry with yourselves because you sold me here, for God sent me before you to preserve life.

Gen 50:20 As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.

Exo 4:21 And the LORD said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all the miracles that I have put in your power. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go.

Jdg 14:1-4 Samson went down to Timnah, and at Timnah he saw one of the daughters of the Philistines. Then he came up and told his father and mother, “I saw one of the daughters of the Philistines at Timnah. Now get her for me as my wife.” But his father and mother said to him, “Is there not a woman among the daughters of your relatives, or among all our people, that you must go to take a wife from the uncircumcised Philistines?” But Samson said to his father, “Get her for me, for she is right in my eyes.” His father and mother did not know that it was from the LORD, for he was seeking an opportunity against the Philistines. At that time the Philistines ruled over Israel.

Psa 76:10 Surely the wrath of man shall praise you; the remnant of wrath you will put on like a belt.

Pro 16:4 The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.

Pro 21:1 The king’s heart is a stream of water in the hand of the LORD; he turns it wherever he will.

Isa 44:28 who says of Cyrus, ‘He is my shepherd, and he shall fulfill all my purpose’; saying of Jerusalem, ‘She shall be built,’ and of the temple, ‘Your foundation shall be laid.’”

Amo 3:6 Is a trumpet blown in a city, and the people are not afraid? Does disaster come to a city, unless the LORD has done it?

Act 2:22-23 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know— this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.

1Sa 16:14-16 Now the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD tormented him. And Saul’s servants said to him, “Behold now, an evil spirit from God is tormenting you. Let our lord now command your servants who are before you to seek out a man who is skillful in playing the lyre, and when the evil spirit from God is upon you, he will play it, and you will be well.”

1Ki 22:19-23 And Micaiah said, “Therefore hear the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing beside him on his right hand and on his left; and the LORD said, ‘Who will entice Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’ And one said one thing, and another said another. Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD, saying, ‘I will entice him.’ And the LORD said to him, ‘By what means?’ And he said, ‘I will go out, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And he said, ‘You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do so.’ Now therefore behold, the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the LORD has declared disaster for you.”

1Ch 21:1 Then Satan stood against Israel and incited David to number Israel./2Sa 24:1 Again the anger of the LORD was kindled againstIsrael, and he incited David against them, saying, “Go, number Israel

I suggest you read these scriptures deeply, and seriously, and do not just dismiss them as you’ve been doing.

“So then, how is man responsible for the Fall, or his sin?”


Sounds familiar:

“Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?”
(Rom 9:19-21)

This we can know, but perhaps never understand:

1) Man is responsible for his sin, and is rightfully condemned for it.

2) Pharoah, though he was “raised up” to it, and Judas, though it was before determined, and all the Jews, are all responsible for their sin; yet, it was God whose “hand” and power willed for it all to happen, so that, from the very moment of their birth, it was already determined that they would be the instruments for God’s fulfillment of His purposes in redeeming the elect. And not by “random chance,” but He specifically chose them, out of all mankind, to do it, to give them wealth, to make them poor, to put them in that world, at that time, for it to happen according to His will.

Mind you, I will note this: that when God works this way with the reprobate, it is through His providence. But when God saves the elect, it is by direct action on the human heart, recreating it from its damned condition.

But in either case, all things work according to His purpose, from before the foundation of the world.

“o, none can come to God but BY the Holy Spirit. But this does NOT mean the Holy Spirit forced the action any more than a road can force a motorist to follow it.”


Obviously, the Holy Spirit is there giving a man a power He did not before... and that is, to repent, to confess Christ as Lord, which you would propose He always had due to the command that exists.

In which case, if we take your position, we must conclude that free-will does not exist until the Holy Spirit gives it to a person. Therefore, the existence of commands, exhortations, etc, do not imply an ability within man to fulfill them.

You must then prove that this is done universally, and to all men, and not just to some. This is then the opportunity to reply to this, for example, which you ignored:

“But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
(Joh 6:64-65)

All these men were standing before Christ, and hearing the same message. Yet, to those who do not believe, Christ specifically tells them that the reason they do not believe is because “it was not granted” by the Father. We are not told here that God foreknew, perhaps, their wickedness, or that God foreknew their faithlessness and therefore “did not give it” based on this knowledge. We are only told that God foreknew His own work, in giving it to some to believe, but not all.

“In this verse, Jesus himself, is speaking about God’s Chosen People —
Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not.

Now, can the Holy Spirit really be resisted, as Jesus is saying the Jews resisted God?”


Was God speaking to His chosen people? Not all of Israel is Israel, and not every individual who claims to be a Christian, is a Christian.

“Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.” (Rom 9:6-8)

Again:

Rom_2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

There is a fundamental difference between the reprobate and the elect of God, and between true Israel and the Pharisees. When Christ spoke to the Pharisees, He never once called them “lost sheep,” but called them servants of Satan and vipers.

“But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.”
(Joh 10:26-29)

The Sheep of God are such that they cannot help but to hear the voice of God, and not because they have some internal innocence or goodness that just makes them receptive to it, but because God gives them an internal reception and ability to hear, and to believe, and to do. As the scripture from John demonstrates, and the others I have referenced, the knowledge that Jesus is the Christ is not revealed by “flesh and blood,” but by “[our] Father in heaven.”

Mat_16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

So the question is, can those whom God has given to believe, in contrast to those who never received it, ever fail to come? The scripture declares “All that the Father hath given to the Son, will come to Him,” so we cannot presume that this revelation is given to all men.

To answer your specific claims. Read the context in that chapter:

“Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.”
(Mat 23:33-36)

These aren’t to the “Sheep of God,” it is a judgment made against the Pharisees, who will be sent Prophets (the Apostles) and scribes in order to bring upon them “blood” for the purpose of judgment. Christ is not here discussing how He might reason with them and save them. He is pronouncing divine judgment against them, as men who have no hope.

Now did these men receive it from the Father to come to the Son? Does God work the “same way’ with all men, and does not give a special, effectual calling to some, but not all?

Consider this verse. Here, Moses is speaking to all those men who had witnessed all the mighty miracles of God in their exodus from Egypt. They had been warned, they had been commanded, they had been encouraged, and yet, what does Moses say of their hearts and ears?

Deu 29:2 And Moses called unto all Israel, and said unto them, Ye have seen all that the LORD did before your eyes in the land of Egypt unto Pharaoh, and unto all his servants, and unto all his land;
Deu 29:3 The great temptations which thine eyes have seen, the signs, and those great miracles:
Deu 29:4 Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

God chooses to give men signs, miracles, and many wonderful things... and yet, withholds from them the hearts to perceive, and the eyes to see, instead, leaving them in their own uncircumcision of hearts, in a state unable to come to God at all:

Rom_8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Does not seem like a contradiction to you? I call it, the sovereignty of God who, though He can change the hearts of men any which way He wills, chooses to leave some men in their sins, rightfully condemned, in order to full His purpose; and others, He saves wholly against their will, infallibly.

“Yes, if you doubt read Romans chapter 1 carefully. It talks about how God has struggled with men, and what their destiny will be if they continue to reject the Truth and embrace darkness.”


Romans 1-3 do no such thing. They are an argument from Paul to demonstrate that ALL are under sin, and that “no one is righteous,” “no one seeks, no one understands” God. Thus he concludes at the very end “Both Jews and Gentiles are under sin.”

It is not an argument in favor of mankind seeking and saving themselves, even those who had never even heard the Gospel (the Gentiles), who will be punished if they don’t shape themselves up. It is in argument in favor of a savior.

“Mankind has a responsibility because he has a choice to make.”


Man has a responsibility and a choice to make, which is the foundation of man’s condemnation. What he doesn’t have is Ability, in any native part of his body or mind, in order to seek or understand God:

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

What you don’t understand is, the reason why we must be “born again,” isn’t because we have some native island of righteousness in us that CAN seek and understand, given enough help by God. It is because our wills must be entirely remade, so that we can seek and understand God.

“1 Timothy 2
King James Version (KJV)
2 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Now how is it that God’s will is that ALL MEN be saved, and yet some be damned?”


Check the context, which you provide. Paul is speaking of “Kings,” and for all those in authority. The meaning is not that God desires that men already in hell, or condemned to it, will be saved. It is “all sorts of men,” of all men in authority, of every class or rank.

One must be aware of the unique peculiarities Jews make use of in their language. For example, from Gill’s commentary, commenting on the Jewish use of the words “all the world, the world, the whole world, all the men of the world,” etc, Gill begins by quoting Jewish examples where the word is used in radically different ways from how we would use it today:

“Nothing is more common in Jewish writings than to call the Gentiles, “the world”; and “the whole world”; and “the nations of the world” (l); See Gill on John 12:19; and the word “world” is so used in Scripture; see Joh_3:16; and stands opposed to a notion the Jews have of the Gentiles, that “there is no propitiation for them” (m): and it is easy to observe, that when this phrase is not used of the Gentiles, it is to be understood in a limited and restrained sense; as when they say (n),

‘it happened to a certain high priest, that when he went out of the sanctuary, “the whole world” went after him;’’(n)

which could only design the people in the temple. And elsewhere (o) it is said,

“amle ylwk, “the “whole world” has left the Misna, and gone after the “Gemara”;’’

which at most can only intend the Jews; and indeed only a majority of their doctors, who were conversant with these writings: and in another place (p),

“amle ylwk, “the whole world” fell on their faces, but Raf did not fall on his face;’’

where it means no more than the congregation. Once more, it is said (q), when

“R. Simeon ben Gamaliel entered (the synagogue), “the whole world” stood up before him;’’

that is, the people in the synagogue: to which may be added (r),

“when a great man makes a mourning, “the whole world” come to honour him;’’

i.e. a great number of persons attend the funeral pomp: and so these phrases, “the whole world” is not divided, or does not dissent (s); “the whole world” are of opinion (t), are frequently met with in the Talmud, by which, an agreement among the Rabbins, in certain points, is designed; yea, sometimes the phrase, “all the men of the world” (u), only intend the inhabitants of a city where a synagogue was, and, at most, only the Jews: and so this phrase, “all the world”, or “the whole world”, in Scripture, unless when it signifies the whole universe, or the habitable earth, is always used in a limited sense, either for the Roman empire, or the churches of Christ in the world, or believers, or the present inhabitants of the world, or a part of them only, Luk_2:1; and so it is in this epistle, 1Jo_5:19; where the whole world lying in wickedness is manifestly distinguished from the saints, who are of God, and belong not to the world; and therefore cannot be understood of all the individuals in the world”

(From Gill’s Commentary on 1 John 2:2, quoting from (l) Jarchi in Isa. liii. 5. (m) T. Hieros. Nazir, fol. 57. 3. Vid. T. Bab. Succa, fol. 55. 2. (n) T. Bab. Yoma, fol. 71. 2. (o) T. Bab. Bava Metzia, fol. 33. 2. (p) T. Bab. Megilla, fol. 22. 2. (q) T. Bab. Horayot, fol. 13. 2. (r) Piske Toseph. Megilla, art. 104. (s) T. Bab. Cetubot, fol. 90. 2. & Kiddushin, fol. 47. 2. & 49. 1. & 65. 2. & Gittin, fol. 8. 1. & 60. 2. (t) T. Bab. Kiddushin, fol. 48. 1. (u) Maimon. Hilch. Tephilla, c. 11. sect. 16.)

Scriptural examples of this include:

Luk 2:1 In those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered.

By this Luke means, not the whole habitable world, as much of it was still undiscovered, and not even the whole known world, which even in those days was not all under the power of the Roman empire, but just the Roman empire itself, or perhaps Judae.

Another one, which Gill mentioned:

1Jn 5:19 We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

Obviously we are no longer under the power of Satan, but have been released from his clutches by the power of Jesus Christ.

Another:

Luk 11:42 “But woe to you Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and every herb, and neglect justice and the love of God. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others.”

Some translations render this “all manner of herb,” but, literally, it is “every herb,” which, obviously, the meaning is only every kind of herb.

St. Augustine uses this example in his explanation of the verse 1 Ti 2:4 “Who will have all men to be saved”:

“Or, it is said, “Who will have all men to be saved;” not that there is no man whose salvation He does not will (for how, then, explain the fact that He was unwilling to work miracles in the presence of some who, He said, would have repented if He had worked them?), but that we are to understand by “all men,” the human race in all its varieties of rank and circumstances,—kings, subjects; noble, plebeian, high, low, learned, and unlearned; the sound in body, the feeble, the clever, the dull, the foolish, the rich, the poor, and those of middling circumstances; males, females, infants, boys, youths; young, middle-aged, and old men; of every tongue, of every fashion, of all arts, of all professions, with all the innumerable differences of will and conscience, and whatever else there is that makes a distinction among men. For which of all these classes is there out of which God does not will that men should be saved in all nations through His only-begotten Son, our Lord, and therefore does save them; for the Omnipotent cannot will in vain, whatsoever He may will? Now the apostle had enjoined that prayers should be made for all men, and had especially added, “For kings, and for all that are in authority,” who might be supposed, in the pride and pomp of worldly station, to shrink from the humility of the Christian faith. Then saying, “For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour,” that is, that prayers should be made for such as these, he immediately adds, as if to remove any ground of despair, “Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth” [I Tim. 2:1-4]. God, then, in His great condescension has judged it good to grant to the prayers of the humble the salvation of the exalted; and assuredly we have many examples of this. Our Lord, too, makes use of the same mode of speech in the Gospel, when He says to the Pharisees: “Ye tithe mint, and rue, and every herb” [Luke 11:42]. For the Pharisees did not tithe what belonged to others, nor all the herbs of all the inhabitants of other lands. As, then, in this place we must understand by “every herb,” every kind of herbs, so in the former passage we may understand by “all men,” every sort of men. And we may interpret it in any other way we please, so long as we are not compelled to believe that the omnipotent God has willed anything to be done which was not done: for setting aside all ambiguities, if “He hath done all that He pleased in heaven and in earth” [Ps. 115:3]. as the psalmist sings of Him, He certainly did not will to do anything that He hath not done.” (Augustine, Enchiridion on Faith, Hope and Love, Ch. 103. Interpretation of the Expression in I Tim. 2:4: “Who Will Have All Men to Be Saved”.)

Another example:

“As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.”
(Rom 3:10-11)

Obviously this cannot mean that no one seeks or understands, as, obviously, all Christians seek and understand (though maybe not perfectly). But, Paul’s meaning is more general,r referring to the depraved world, or of all Christians prior to Christ saving them, who, before that time, are incapable of seeing, believing or understanding until the Holy Spirit moves on them.

Another example, Christ distinguishing between the world and those given to Him out of the world:

Joh 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

Thus the world does not mean everyone in the world, but all those not given to Him.

Finally, more direct examples, by comparing seemingly contradictory verses with their parallels:

1Jn_2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Joh_11:52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

Thus the meaning is, Christ is the atonement for all the sins of the children of God scattered abroad, of every nation and tribe.


33 posted on 01/03/2014 11:01:29 PM PST by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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