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Questions and Answers on the Trinity [Catholic and Open]
EWTN.com ^ | 1997 | The Baltimore Catechism, no. 3, Lesson 3.

Posted on 01/04/2014 11:00:14 AM PST by Salvation

Questions and Answers on the Trinity

25. How many Persons are there in God?

In God there are three divine Persons--the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

(a) Unaided by divine revelation, the human mind could not know the existence of the Blessed Trinity because it is a supernatural mystery.3 Even after God has revealed the existence of the Blessed Trinity, we cannot understand it fully. When we believe, on the word of God, that there are three Persons in one God, we do not believe that three Persons are one Person, or that three gods are one God; this would be a contradiction.

26. Is the Father God?

The Father is God and the first Person of the Blessed Trinity.

(a) The first Person of the Blessed Trinity is called the Father because from all eternity He begets the second Person, His only-begotten Son.

(b) God the Father is called the first Person not because He is greater or older than the other two Persons, but because He is unbegotten.

27. Is the Son God?

The Son is God and the second Person of the Blessed Trinity.

(a) The second Person of the Blessed Trinity is called the Son because from all eternity, He is the only begotten of the Father. Proceeding from the Father, the Son is called the Divine Word or the Wisdom of the Father.

28. Is the Holy Ghost God?

The Holy Ghost is God and the third Person of the Blessed Trinity.

(a) The third Person of the Blessed Trinity is called the Holy Ghost because from all eternity He is breathed forth, as it were, by the Father and the Son. Proceeding from the Father and the Son, He is called the Gift or Love of the Father and the Son.

(b) The word "Ghost" applied to the third Person means "Spirit."

29. What do we mean by the Blessed Trinity?

By the Blessed Trinity we mean one and the same God in three divine Persons.

30. Are the three divine Persons really distinct from one another?

The three divine Persons are really distinct from one another.

(a) Although the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are distinct Persons, they are not distinct in nature. The nature of the Father is entirely the nature of the Son; and the nature of the Father and the Son is entirely the nature of the Holy Ghost.

31. Are the three divine Persons perfectly equal to one another?

The three divine Persons are perfectly equal to one another, because all are one and the same God.

(a) No one of the three Persons precedes the others in time or in power, but all are equally eternal and all-powerful because they have the same divine nature.

32. How are the three divine Persons, though really distinct from one another, one and the same God?

The three divine Persons, though really distinct from one another, are one and the same God because all have one and the same divine nature.

(a) Because the three divine Persons have one and the same divine nature, they have the same perfections and the same external works are produced by them. But in order that we may better know the three divine Persons, certain perfections and works are attributed to each Person; for example, omnipotence and the works of omnipotence, such as creation, to the Father; wisdom and the works of wisdom, such as enlightenment, to the Son, love and the works of love, such as sanctification, to the Holy Ghost.

33. Can we fully understand how the three divine Persons, though really distinct from one another, are one and the same God?

We cannot fully understand how the three divine Persons, though really distinct from one another, are one and the same God because this is a supernatural mystery.

34. What is a supernatural mystery?

A supernatural mystery is a truth which we cannot fully understand, but which we firmly believe because we have God's word for it.

(a) In addition to those truths which can be attained by man's natural reason, there are certain mysteries hidden in God which we cannot know without divine revelation, but which we must believe because God has revealed them. Divine mysteries by their very nature are far above the power of human understanding and even when revealed and accepted on faith they remain obscure during our life on earth. To understand these things fully, a finite mind would have to comprehend the infinite.

(b) In heaven there will be a fuller understanding of these mysteries, but never an infinite comprehension of them.

It is reasonable to believe supernatural mysteries revealed by God because He can neither deceive nor be deceived. In our everyday life we believe many things on the word of human beings even though at times they deceive or are deceived.


The Baltimore Catechism, no. 3, Lesson 3.



TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic; trinity
Discussion on the Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
1 posted on 01/04/2014 11:00:14 AM PST by Salvation
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To: nickcarraway; NYer; ELS; Pyro7480; livius; ArrogantBustard; Catholicguy; RobbyS; marshmallow; ...

Trinity Ping!


2 posted on 01/04/2014 11:02:51 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: All
Christ talking to the Apostles:

Matthew, chapter 28

 

19h Go, therefore,* and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,

20i teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.* And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.”


3 posted on 01/04/2014 11:04:01 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation
Trinity Ping!

Amen to the most impossible concept to understand.

4 posted on 01/04/2014 11:04:51 AM PST by cloudmountain
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To: Salvation

Thank you Salvation...

It is a fact that anyone denying the Trinity is not a Christian...


5 posted on 01/04/2014 11:04:58 AM PST by Tennessee Nana
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To: Salvation

Looks simple enough 1x1x1=1


6 posted on 01/04/2014 11:05:24 AM PST by SIRTRIS
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To: SIRTRIS

Good way to put it. Thanks for that.


7 posted on 01/04/2014 11:06:58 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

Footnotes:

 

* [28:18] All power…me: the Greek word here translated power is the same as that found in the LXX translation of Dn 7:1314 where one “like a son of man” is given power and an everlasting kingdom by God. The risen Jesus here claims universal power, i.e., in heaven and on earth.

* [28:19] Therefore: since universal power belongs to the risen Jesus (Mt 28:18), he gives the eleven a mission that is universal. They are to make disciples of all nations. While all nations is understood by some scholars as referring only to all Gentiles, it is probable that it included the Jews as well. Baptizing them: baptism is the means of entrance into the community of the risen one, the Church. In the name of the Father…holy Spirit: this is perhaps the clearest expression in the New Testament of trinitarian belief. It may have been the baptismal formula of Matthew’s church, but primarily it designates the effect of baptism, the union of the one baptized with the Father, Son, and holy Spirit.

* [28:20] All that I have commanded you: the moral teaching found in this gospel, preeminently that of the Sermon on the Mount (Mt 57). The commandments of Jesus are the standard of Christian conduct, not the Mosaic law as such, even though some of the Mosaic commandments have now been invested with the authority of Jesus. Behold, I am with you always: the promise of Jesus’ real though invisible presence echoes the name Emmanuel given to him in the infancy narrative; see note on Mt 1:23. End of the age: see notes on Mt 13:39 and Mt 24:3.


8 posted on 01/04/2014 11:09:01 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

In what year was the Trinity accepted as doctrine in the Roman Catholic Church?


9 posted on 01/04/2014 11:12:37 AM PST by Citizen Tom Paine (An old sailor sends)
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To: Citizen Tom Paine
Catholic Encyclopedia

In the article some references to the Old Testament too.

The dogma of the Trinity

The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion — the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another.

Thus, in the words of the Athanasian Creed: "the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God." In this Trinity of Persons the Son is begotten of the Father by an eternal generation, and the Holy Spirit proceeds by an eternal procession from the Father and the Son. Yet, notwithstanding this difference as to origin, the Persons are co-eternal and co-equal: all alike are uncreated and omnipotent. This, the Church teaches, is the revelation regarding God's nature which Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came upon earth to deliver to the world: and which she proposes to man as the foundation of her whole dogmatic system.

In Scripture there is as yet no single term by which the Three Divine Persons are denoted together. The word trias (of which the Latin trinitas is a translation) is first found in Theophilus of Antioch about A.D. 180. He speaks of "the Trinity of God [the Father], His Word and His Wisdom (To Autolycus II.15). The term may, of course, have been in use before his time. Afterwards it appears in its Latin form of trinitas in Tertullian (On Pudicity 21). In the next century the word is in general use. It is found in many passages of Origen ("In Ps. xvii", 15). The first creed in which it appears is that of Origen's pupil, Gregory Thaumaturgus. In his Ekthesis tes pisteos composed between 260 and 270, he writes: .....continue reading at the link above.


10 posted on 01/04/2014 11:23:15 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

Agreeing with the thesis (to wit, the truth of the Triune Godhead, as revealed in Scripture) of this post could in some situations actually get us all killed by al-Qaeda and friends in Syria today.

Muslims view the belief in the Trinity as polytheism — a throat-slitting/beheading offense, naturally.

So much for “tolerance.”

That is why I am so glad that so many in the current Administration and Congress are speaking out so vociferously against the wholesale persecution of Christians BY MUSLIMS (this needs to be articulated) in the Middle East at this time! /sarc

P.S. I am a Protestant, but the Doctrine of the Trinity is one area in which Catholic and Protestant theology converge.


11 posted on 01/04/2014 11:30:15 AM PST by man_in_tx (Blowback (Faithfully farting twowards Mecca five times daily).)
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To: Citizen Tom Paine

The trinity is mentioned in the Didache.

Try this — 50 AD — while the Apostles were still alive.

http://www.catholic.com/video/what-is-the-didache


12 posted on 01/04/2014 11:41:41 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: man_in_tx
Muslims view the belief in the Trinity as polytheism — a throat-slitting/beheading offense, naturally.

In Bishop Romney's religion they are separate gods, and Mitt Romney himself will become a God as well.

13 posted on 01/04/2014 12:33:28 PM PST by ansel12 ( Ben Bradlee -- JFK told me that "he was all for people's solving their problems by abortion".)
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To: Salvation
Haw! Not one scripture reference!

Jehovah's Witnesses and the Trinity
[My attempt to explain the "break" in the Trinity]

14 posted on 01/04/2014 1:46:30 PM PST by Alex Murphy ("the defacto Leader of the FR Calvinist Protestant Brigades")
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To: Alex Murphy

I beg your pardon,

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/3108323/posts?page=3#3

And the footnotes below that with other Scripture references.


15 posted on 01/04/2014 1:57:54 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation
(a) Because the three divine Persons have one and the same divine nature, they have the same perfections and the same external works are produced by them. But in order that we may better know the three divine Persons, certain perfections and works are attributed to each Person; for example, omnipotence and the works of omnipotence, such as creation, to the Father; wisdom and the works of wisdom, such as enlightenment, to the Son, love and the works of love, such as sanctification, to the Holy Ghost.

More biblical ignorance put out by the Catholic religion...The funny part is that it is supposed to be true because some guy put on a crown and a fancy robe and claimed it is true...And the sheeple said, amen...

Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

So which person is John speaking to here??? The Father, or Jesus???

There are 3 persons; the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit...There are 3 Lords, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit...Yet there is one Lord...

And there is one person; God...

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

All the same person, with different forms... 3 persons=1 person...

Gen_1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Jesus was the Creator, yet God was the Creator...1 person...

Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

In the FORM of God, not the nature of God...

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible,
whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

This says that the Earth and everything in it was created by and for Jesus...

Who is the creator, the person of the Father or the person of Jesus??? Your religion says it was the Father...The scriptures say it was the Father AND the Son and the HOly Spirit...But yet it was created by the person of God...

When we believe, on the word of God, that there are three Persons in one God, we do not believe that three Persons are one Person, or that three gods are one God; this would be a contradiction.

The lack of spiritual understanding and belief does not constitute a contradiction...

16 posted on 01/04/2014 2:32:57 PM PST by Iscool
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To: man_in_tx
I am a Protestant, but the Doctrine of the Trinity is one area in which Catholic and Protestant theology converge.

Not ALL protestants, see post #16. If you stick around here long enough you will see some "interesting" points of view.

17 posted on 01/04/2014 2:43:34 PM PST by verga (Poor spiritual health oftern leads to poor physical and mental health)
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To: Iscool

**In the FORM of God, not the nature of God...**

This is so wrong. Jesus had two natures, a divine nature and a human nature, fully God and fully man.


18 posted on 01/04/2014 2:48:16 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation
This is so wrong. Jesus had two natures, a divine nature and a human nature, fully God and fully man.

Why are you and your religion right but the bibles so wrong???

19 posted on 01/04/2014 7:06:44 PM PST by Iscool
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To: verga
Not ALL protestants, see post #16. If you stick around here long enough you will see some "interesting" points of view.

No point of view at all...The bible doesn't afford us a point of view...It's Bible...

20 posted on 01/04/2014 7:08:35 PM PST by Iscool
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To: Iscool

The Bible tells us that.

Read St. Paul.


21 posted on 01/04/2014 7:41:21 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

Hi there Salvation,
I’m very curious as to why our Heavenly Father is referred to as a “person”?

I guess the main reason being that I asked this question is because it is my understanding from Scripture that God is a Spirit - (John 4:24).

Yet, a “person” = a human being.

Also, since God is a Spirit, His Spirit is also Holy too.

But I see in this presentation that the Holy Spirit is also being called a “person”.

Is it just me, or does anyone else see something just ain’t right with using this type of terminology?

And “Salvation”, I don’t mean any harm, or attack.
I’ve been studying on my own for quite some time now, and I when I’m moved to ask questions about things that don’t make sense to me, I get moving, regardless of how silly I might look ... smiles


22 posted on 01/04/2014 9:05:36 PM PST by A child of Yah (I once was lost, but now I'm found, twas grace that set me free ... thank you LORD)
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To: A child of Yah

I understand where you are coming from. No harm done at all.

You have a valid point about God the Father, yet God the Father talked with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden when they tried to hide from him.

I’m wondering if taking on the human aspects makes the Scripture more understandable.

Of course Christ was fully God and fully man.

And I have always thought of the Holy Spirit as spirit too — but often moving other people to act in our lives.

Good discussion points, thank you.

And I may be totally wrong, because I definitely am not a theologian. LOL!


23 posted on 01/04/2014 9:10:41 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

Thank you so much for understanding and responding so kindly.

I so look forward to the return of our LORD.
I can picture all of ourselves just kneeling beside Him, and asking Him all these questions like little children ... what a glorious day that will be ... smiles


24 posted on 01/04/2014 9:56:39 PM PST by A child of Yah (I once was lost, but now I'm found, twas grace that set me free ... thank you LORD)
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To: Salvation
Read St. Paul.

HaHa...Nice try but I just posted from Paul and you said he was wrong...Paul the apostle is wrong...And your religion is correct...

Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

25 posted on 01/05/2014 12:22:16 AM PST by Iscool
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To: Iscool
Why are you and your religion right but the bibles so wrong???

Why is your interpretation of the Bible right, and that of 1.3 billion Christians (and I'm only counting Catholics and Orthodox, though the vast majority of Protestants agree with us and not with you on this topic) alive right now, and the >1 billion who have gone before us, wrong?

Truth isn't decided by majority vote, but OTOH if you're a minority of one or two against billions spread out over 2000 years, you're probably wrong. In fact, you're probably way off in the high weeds.

26 posted on 01/05/2014 3:19:36 AM PST by Campion ("Social justice" begins in the womb)
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To: A child of Yah
Yet, a “person” = a human being.

No, it's technical metaphysical terminology, and translated from Greek, to boot. A "person" is defined as an "individual substance of a rational nature". Think of it as a rational entity who can be identified (and therefore named) uniquely. Human beings are persons, angels are persons (but not human persons; they're angelic persons), and God is three divine persons in one divine substance.

27 posted on 01/05/2014 3:26:14 AM PST by Campion ("Social justice" begins in the womb)
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To: Campion
Why is your interpretation of the Bible right, and that of 1.3 billion Christians (and I'm only counting Catholics and Orthodox, though the vast majority of Protestants agree with us and not with you on this topic) alive right now, and the >1 billion who have gone before us, wrong?

Because they are all sheeple and believe anything the guy in the fishhat says...

Truth isn't decided by majority vote, but OTOH if you're a minority of one or two against billions spread out over 2000 years, you're probably wrong. In fact, you're probably way off in the high weeds.

If I am in a minority, there are at least 2 of us, me and God...

Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

If you can't figure out what that verse says, I'd say you shouldn't be on this forumn, or any forumn...Or you shoud stick to posting cartoons...They should never have let you out of elementary school...

28 posted on 01/05/2014 7:03:17 AM PST by Iscool
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To: Campion; A child of Yah
Yet, a “person” = a human being.

No, it's technical metaphysical terminology, and translated from Greek, to boot. A "person" is defined as an "individual substance of a rational nature". Think of it as a rational entity who can be identified (and therefore named) uniquely. Human beings are persons, angels are persons (but not human persons; they're angelic persons), and God is three divine persons in one divine substance.

Not by any definition I could find...

This is a perfect example of the 'stuff' you guys cook up based on man's flawed wisdom...And Catholics just lay down and believe you...Why??? I guess because someone who sounds intelligent said it...

Metaphysics??? Metaphysics is pure philosophy...Man's flawed wisdom...There's nothing philosophical about God...God is not a philosophy...

It is not easy to say what metaphysics is. Ancient and Medieval philosophers might have said that metaphysics was, like chemistry or astrology, to be defined by its subject matter: metaphysics was the “science” that studied “being as such” or “the first causes of things” or “things that do not change.” It is no longer possible to define metaphysics that way, and for two reasons. First, a philosopher who denied the existence of those things that had once been seen as constituting the subject-matter of metaphysics—first causes or unchanging things—would now be considered to be making thereby a metaphysical assertion. Secondly, there are many philosophical problems that are now considered to be metaphysical problems (or at least partly metaphysical problems) that are in no way related to first causes or unchanging things; the problem of free will, for example, or the problem of the mental and the physical from here

A substance is physical/matter...Therefore if God is a substance, God is physical, a person...
Person=prosōpon=the front (as being towards view), that is, the countenance, aspect, appearance, surface; by implication presence, person:

That gives us 4 in what used to be a Trinity, 5 if you include Mary...

The Bible reveals that the person of God is within the Godhead. The Godhead is known as the holy Trinity. All of God is in the Godhead.
The fullness of the person of God was in Jesus Christ. All of God was in the person of the Lord Jesus. He was the complete fullness of the Godhead. So it has to be 3 divine persons in 1 divine person...

Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

The Father and the Holy Spirit are within Jesus...

Revelation 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit; and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
(3) And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.
(9) And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,
(10) The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne,

They worshiped God...They did not worship the substance that was outside the 3 or separate from the 3...The 3 are one-person...

Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

It is not God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit...It IS God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit...

It is interesting to note that when those elders are in heaven worshiping God, Jesus the lamb does not come out from the right hand of God...He comes right out of the center of the single throne that is in heaven...Right out of the center of God...

29 posted on 01/05/2014 9:46:19 AM PST by Iscool
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To: Iscool
Because they are all sheeple and believe anything the guy in the fishhat says...

LOL ... Many of them died for their witness to the truth. "Sheeple"? Far from it. They had courage most of us, you included, can only dream of, because their courage came straight from God.

For example, they would not dream of witnessing to Christ by anonymously insulting someone on the Internet the way you just insulted me.

As for Phillipians 2:6, I understand the verse just fine. Nowhere does it say Christ was not God, as you said it did. Read it in context: before the Incarnation, Christ had the form (appearance) of God; in the Incarnation, Christ took the form of a slave (human) and emptied himself.

Christ himself said before the Pharisees that he was eternal God when he said, "Before Abraham came to be, I AM". Paul said it, too, in the introduction to Hebrews, when he quotes the Father saying "Let all the angels of God worship him (Jesus)".

There are many other proofs of Christ's divinity. Any competent Bible scholar can show them to you.

30 posted on 01/05/2014 12:37:35 PM PST by Campion ("Social justice" begins in the womb)
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To: Iscool
A substance is physical/matter

Wrong. That is not what the Gk ousia, which is the word rendered in English as "substance", means. Not even close! Since you're not even going to take the time to get the basic terminology right, I'm not going to waste any more time on you.

So it has to be 3 divine persons in 1 divine person...

Heresy always leads to nonsense like this. Repent, embrace the Gospel, and become a Christian.

31 posted on 01/05/2014 12:45:56 PM PST by Campion ("Social justice" begins in the womb)
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To: Campion
Nowhere does it say Christ was not God, as you said it did.

Don't be making stuff up now...I never said Jesus was not God...I have been pointing out there are not 3 persons and one substance, or 3 persons that make up one substance except that substance is a person...

LOL ... Many of them died for their witness to the truth. "Sheeple"? Far from it. They had courage most of us, you included, can only dream of, because their courage came straight from God.

They died for what they were told was the truth...A bit of a difference there...

For example, they would not dream of witnessing to Christ by anonymously insulting someone on the Internet the way you just insulted me.

I'm just following your lead...

32 posted on 01/05/2014 3:36:09 PM PST by Iscool
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To: Campion
Wrong. That is not what the Gk ousia, which is the word rendered in English as "substance", means. Not even close! Since you're not even going to take the time to get the basic terminology right, I'm not going to waste any more time on you.

What, you got some secret Roman definition that can't be found in English, or Greek for that matter???

ou·sia noun \ˈüzēə, ˈüsēə, ˈüzh(ē)ə, ˈüsh(ē)ə\ -s Full Definition of OUSIA
1
: true being : entity, essence, substance
2 : hypostasis 2a
Origin of OUSIA
Gk, fr. ous- (stem of ōn, pres. part. of einai to be) + -ia -y —

OUSIA is used twice in the scriptures, twice in Luke in the NAS bible...

Bible Study ToolsOur LibraryLexiconsNew Testament Greek LexiconNew Testament Greek Lexicon - New American StandardOusia

Ousia

The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon

Strong's Number: 3776
Original Word Word Origin
ousia from the feminine of (5607)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Ousia None
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
oo-see'-ah Noun Feminine
Definition

what one has, i.e. property, possessions, estate

I don't think that's the word you want it to be...

And look at the desperate attempt Here to try to fit the word into something that means what you guys want it to mean...It's tortured up and down the line of history...Apparently this is where you come up with your fractured meaning...

Ousia isn't even used in the scriptures except to denote personal possessions...

I don't blame you for running out on any discussion of Ousia and substance...

33 posted on 01/05/2014 4:24:17 PM PST by Iscool
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To: Campion
Heresy always leads to nonsense like this. Repent, embrace the Gospel, and become a Christian.

HaHaHaHa, if you guys can't defend your religion against something, you call it heresy and then start with the insults...

34 posted on 01/05/2014 4:26:57 PM PST by Iscool
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To: Iscool

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.


35 posted on 01/05/2014 6:55:48 PM PST by Religion Moderator
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To: Salvation

If I may:

From The Westminster Confession of Faith,

Chapter II

Of God, and of the Holy Trinity

I. There is but one only,[1] living, and true God,[2] who is infinite in being and perfection,[3] a most pure spirit,[4] invisible,[5] without body, parts,[6] or passions;[7] immutable,[8] immense,[9] eternal,[10] incomprehensible,[11] almighty,[12] most wise,[13] most holy,[14] most free,[15] most absolute;[16] working all things according to the counsel of His own immutable and most righteous will,[17] for His own glory;[18] most loving,[19] gracious, merciful, long-suffering, abundant in goodness and truth, forgiving iniquity, transgression, and sin;[20] the rewarder of them that diligently seek Him;[21] and withal, most just, and terrible in His judgments,[22] hating all sin,[23] and who will by no means clear the guilty.[24]

II. God has all life,[25] glory,[26] goodness,[27] blessedness,[28] in and of Himself; and is alone in and unto Himself all-sufficient, not standing in need of any creatures which He has made,[29] nor deriving any glory from them,[30] but only manifesting His own glory in, by, unto, and upon them. He is the alone fountain of all being, of whom, through whom, and to whom are all things;[31] and has most sovereign dominion over them, to do by them, for them, or upon them whatsoever Himself pleases.[32] In His sight all things are open and manifest,[33] His knowledge is infinite, infallible, and independent upon the creature,[34] so as nothing is to Him contingent, or uncertain.[35] He is most holy in all His counsels, in all His works, and in all His commands.[36] To Him is due from angels and men, and every other creature, whatsoever worship, service, or obedience He is pleased to require of them.[37]

III. In the unity of the Godhead there be three Persons of one substance, power, and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost.[38] The Father is of none, neither begotten nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; [39] the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son. [40]


Footnotes:

[1] DEU 6:4 Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord. 1CO 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God by one. 6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

[2] 1TH 1:9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols, to serve the living and true God. JER 10:10 But the Lord is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting King.

[3] JOB 11:7 Canst thou by searching find out God? canst thou find out the Almighty unto perfection? 8 It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know? 9 The measure thereof is longer than the earth, and broader than the sea. 26:14 Lo, these are parts of his ways; but how little a portion is heard of him? but the thunder of his power who can understand?

[4] JOH 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

[5] 1TI 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

[6] DEU 4:15 Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the Lord spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire: 16 Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female. JOH 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. LUK 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

[7] ACT 14:11 And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men. 15 And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein.

[8] JAM 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. MAL 3:6 For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

[9] 1KI 8:27 But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded? JER 23:23 Am I a God at hand, saith the Lord, and not a God afar off? 24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord.

[10] PSA 90:2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God. 1TI 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

[11] PSA 145:3 Great is the Lord, and greatly to be praised; and his greatness is unsearchable.

[12] GEN 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. REV 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

[13] ROM 16:27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

[14] ISA 6:3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory. REV 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

[15] PSA 115:3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.

[16] EXO 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.

[17] EPH 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will.

[18] PRO 16:4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. ROM 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

[19] 1JO 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. 16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

[20] EXO 34:6 And the Lord passed by before him, and proclaimed, The Lord, The Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, 7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children’s children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

[21] HEB 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

[22] NEH 9:32 Now therefore, our God, the great, the mighty, and the terrible God, who keepest covenant and mercy, let not all the trouble seem little before thee, that hath come upon us, on our kings, on our princes, and on our priests, and on our prophets, and on our fathers, and on all thy people, since the time of the kings of Assyria unto this day. 33 Howbeit thou art just in all that is brought upon us; for thou hast done right, but we have done wickedly.

[23] PSA 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity. 6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the Lord will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.

[24] NAH 1:2 God is jealous, and the Lord revengeth; the Lord revengeth, and is furious; the Lord will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies. 3 The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked: the Lord hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet. EXO 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children’s children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

[25] JOH 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself.

[26] ACT 7:2 And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran.

[27] PSA 119:68 Thou art good, and doest good; teach me thy statutes.

[28] 1TI 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords. ROM 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

[29] ACT 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25 Neither is worshipped with men’s hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things.

[30] JOB 22:2 Can a man be profitable unto God, as he that is wise may be profitable unto himself? 3 Is it any pleasure to the Almighty, that thou art righteous? or is it gain to him that thou makest thy ways perfect?

[31] ROM 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

[32] REV 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. 1TI 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords. DAN 4:25 That they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and they shall wet thee with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee, till thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will. 35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

[33] HEB 4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

[34] ROM 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! 34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? PSA 147:5 Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.

[35] ACT 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. EZE 11:5 And the Spirit of the Lord fell upon me, and said unto me, Speak; Thus saith the Lord; Thus have ye said, O house of Israel: for I know the things that come into your mind, every one of them.

[36] PSA 145:17 The Lord is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works. ROM 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

[37] REV 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. 13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. 14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

[38] (Traditionally, I John 5:7 is placed here, but we have, for obvious reasons, omitted it in our online edition) MATT 3:16-17 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. MATT 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. II COR 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.

[39] JOHN 1:14,18 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

[40] JOHN 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, He shall testify of me. GAL 4:6 And Because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.


36 posted on 01/05/2014 7:01:00 PM PST by Gamecock (Celebrating 20,000 posts of dubious quality.)
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To: Campion; Iscool

wow ... so sorry
I forgot all about this thread. It dropped away from my recently bookmarked pages and poof ... out of sight, out of mind ... anyhoo...

Campion, part of your reply:
Think of it as a rational entity who can be identified (and therefore named) uniquely. Human beings are persons, angels are persons (but not human persons; they’re angelic persons), and God is three divine persons in one divine substance.
************************************************
I still have trouble grasping that concept of “persons”.
I guess because I’m a person, and to me it means a human form, and not a “spiritual” form.

Now you say angels are persons too?
I’ve always looked at them as “spiritual beings” who can appear as a person when they enter “our realm” to interact with us.

Maybe the word “entity” is more appropriate, or does that give it a spooky connotation? ... I dunno peeps ... I’m at a loss here ... sighs and wonders why I still can’t relate to this concept.


37 posted on 01/05/2014 9:47:10 PM PST by A child of Yah (I once was lost, but now I'm found, twas grace that set me free ... thank you LORD)
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To: ansel12

In Bishop Romney’s religion they are separate gods, and Mitt Romney himself will become a God as well.

////////////////

Interesting. I do not understand Bishop Romney’s religion’s creed to represent orthodox Christian belief, however.


38 posted on 01/18/2014 8:10:01 PM PST by man_in_tx (Blowback (Faithfully farting twowards Mecca five times daily).)
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To: verga

Not ALL protestants, see post #16. If you stick around here long enough you will see some “interesting” points of view.

//////////////

Thank you for that observation. I will keep an eye out.


39 posted on 01/18/2014 8:16:52 PM PST by man_in_tx (Blowback (Faithfully farting twowards Mecca five times daily).)
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To: man_in_tx

Mormonism is an entirely new religion, a polytheistic religion of endless Gods created by Joseph Smith of Sharon, Vermont, it isn’t a Christian denomination.


40 posted on 01/18/2014 8:25:03 PM PST by ansel12 (Ben Bradlee -- JFK told me that "he was all for people's solving their problems by abortion".)
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To: ansel12

Not disagreeing. Was simply speaking in general terms.


41 posted on 01/20/2014 12:17:14 PM PST by man_in_tx (Blowback (Faithfully farting twowards Mecca five times daily).)
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To: Salvation
This is so wrong. Jesus had two natures, a divine nature and a human nature, fully God and fully man.

Does this mean that Jesus is a person, distinct from the eternal Son of God?

42 posted on 01/20/2014 12:43:48 PM PST by Jack of all Trades (Hold your face to the light, even though for the moment you do not see.)
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To: man_in_tx

I know, I was just fleshing out the non-Christian statement.


43 posted on 01/20/2014 1:24:24 PM PST by ansel12 (Ben Bradlee -- JFK told me that "he was all for people's solving their problems by abortion".)
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To: ansel12

Understood. Thank you for your reply and explanation.


44 posted on 01/20/2014 1:27:19 PM PST by man_in_tx (Blowback (Faithfully farting twowards Mecca five times daily).)
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To: Jack of all Trades

Both a human person and God at the same time.


45 posted on 01/20/2014 5:04:53 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

Was that His nature when He created light in Genesis, Both God and human?


46 posted on 01/20/2014 10:21:45 PM PST by Jack of all Trades (Hold your face to the light, even though for the moment you do not see.)
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To: Jack of all Trades

God the Father created the light from darkness.

I’ve seen it described in this way in Genesis 1:

1. light (day)/darkness (night) = 4. sun/moon
2. arrangement of water = 5. fish + birds from waters
3. a) dry land = 6. a) animals
b) vegetation b) human beings: male/female


47 posted on 01/20/2014 10:32:30 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Jack of all Trades
Here is where we have God referring to the Trinity in Genesis 1:

26 Then God said: Let us make* human beings in our image, after our likeness. Let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, the tame animals, all the wild animals, and all the creatures that crawl on the earth.

So who is the "us?"

48 posted on 01/20/2014 10:37:53 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Jack of all Trades
150 Titles of Christ from the Scriptures [Ecumenical]
Tome of St. Leo the Great on the Two Natures of Christ
Jesus Christ—True God and True Man (¶422-570) [Catholic Caucus]

49 posted on 01/20/2014 10:44:36 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

God spoke in Genesis 1, the Word of God, being the Son of God. At the moment that God said “Let there be Light”, was the Son of God both fully human and fully God?


50 posted on 01/21/2014 9:45:19 AM PST by Jack of all Trades (Hold your face to the light, even though for the moment you do not see.)
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