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Pope Francisí Protestant Meditation on Our Lady
Catholic Family News ^ | December 22, 2013 | John Vennari

Posted on 01/05/2014 9:52:14 AM PST by ebb tide

Pope Francis’ Protestant Meditation on Our Lady Our Lady may have thought, “Lies! I was deceived!”?

Pope Francis delivered a homily on Friday December 20, in which he gives the impression that the Crucifixion of Our Lord was something that took Our Lady by surprise, and that she may have been tempted to believe the Angel’s promise to her were ‘lies’, and that she was “deceived”.

We will first present Pope Francis’ text from Vatican News Service and then provide the Catholic response.

“The Mother of Jesus was the perfect icon of silence,” the Pope said. “From the proclamation of her exceptional maternity at Calvary.” The Pope said he thinks about “how many times she remained quiet and how many times she did not say that which she felt in order to guard the mystery of her relationship with her Son,” up until the most raw silence “at the foot of the cross. The Gospel does not tell us anything: if she spoke a word or not… She was silent, but in her heart, how many things told the Lord! ‘You, that day, this and the other that we read, you had told me that he would be great, you had told me that you would have given him the throne of David, his forefather, that he would have reigned forever and now I see him there!’ Our Lady was human! And perhaps she even had the desire to say: ‘Lies! I was deceived!’ John Paul II would say this, speaking about Our Lady in that moment. But she, with her silence, hid the mystery that she did not understand and with this silence allowed for this mystery to grow and blossom in hope.”*1

Pope Francis is certainly a newsmaker, as he continually utters confusing statements that leave Catholics reeling the world over. The above statement about Our Lady is certainly one of the most troublesome.

Pope Francis, by claiming Our Lady was probably surprised and confused by the drama of the Crucifixion, actually promotes a Protestant reading of the Blessed Mother that emphasizes her “humanity” over the unique exalted gifts she received as Mother of God. Whether he realized it or not, Pope Francis’ statements are actually a denigration of Our Lady, and the first who would say so is Saint Alphonsus Ligouri.

Queen of Martyrs

In The Glories of Mary, one of the greatest treaties on Our Blessed Mother, St. Alphonsus explains that Our Lady’s understanding of Old Testament prophecies surpassed the understanding of the prophets themselves.

Citing saints and holy teachers, St. Alphonsus writes that the Blessed Virgin Mary, even before she become Our Lord’s Mother, “[knew] how much the Incarnate Word was to suffer for the salvation of men.”

Saint Alphonsus explains that this profound understanding of Our Lord’s suffering was one of the great sufferings of her life, for when She gave birth to Our Lord, when she nursed Him and warmed the baby Jesus in her arms, she was aware of the death that awaited him, and this sword continually pierced her Immaculate Heart.

Thus Saint Alphonsus teaches that Our Lady was the “Queen of Martyrs,” as we recite in the Litany, since her martyrdom was “longer and greater than that of all the martyrs.”

In short, the Passion and Crucifixion of Our Lord did not take Our Lady by surprise, as Francis would suggest, nor did she misunderstanding Scripture to mean that the “kingdom” would be a glorious rebirth of a kind of Davidic Kingdom.

A “Continuity” of Confusion

Saddest of all, Pope Francis hearkens back to Pope John Paul II as the basis of his meditation. In this Francis is accurate.

In the new Way of the Cross, composed by John Paul II, we read the following or the fourth Station of “Jesus Meets His Sorrowful Mother”:

The mediation contains a flashback to the Annunciation, and a recounting of the prophecy of the Angel regarding Our Lord, “…and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David, and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end.”

John Paul’s Fourth Station continues:

“Mary heard these words. She often returned to them in the secret of her heart. When she met her Son on the Way of the Cross, perhaps these very words came to her mind with particular force, ‘He will reign, His Kingdom will have no end,’ the heavenly messenger had said. Now, as she watches her Son condemned to death carrying the cross on which He must die, she might ask herself all to humanly, ‘So how can these words be fulfilled?’ In what way will He reign over the house of David. And how can it be that His Kingdom will have not end?’ Humanely speaking, these are all reasonable questions. But Mary remembered that she first heard the angel’s message, she had replied, ‘Behold, I am the handmade of the Lord. May it be done to me according Your Word.”*2

Again, the text gives the false impression that the Passion and Crucifixion of Jesus was something that took Our Lady by surprise. It was as if, during the Way of the Cross, she was baffled as to how the prediction of “His Kingdom shall have no end” could square with the present reality of the bloody Passion, before He had ‘established’ His Kingdom.

In one sense, this meditation puts the Queen of Prophets on the same level as the blind Pharisees who had no idea of what Our Lord was talking about when Jesus told them He was establishing His Kingdom, which is the New Covenant of His Holy Catholic Church, purchased by His Precious Blood. John Paul’s text simply said she made an act of Faith in something she probably did not understand. Pope Francis’ words simply claim Mary had the prudence to “keep silent” about something she did not understand.

How much more satisfying, and more Catholic, is the teaching of Saint Alphonsus Ligouri wherein he embodies the teaching of saints on this topic:

“’The Passion of Jesus began with his birth.’ Says Saint Bernard. Now just as Jesus suffered through his whole life, so Mary, too, in all things like her Son, endured her martyrdom throughout her whole life. One of the meanings of the name of Mary, Albert the Great tells us, is ‘bitter sea,’ Hence the text of Jeremiah is application to her: Great as the sea is your destruction [Lam 2:13]. Just as the sea is extraordinarily bitter and salty, so was the life of Mary always full of bitterness, for the thought of the Passion of her son was always present in her mind.”

Tragically, in their befuddled teaching on the Blessed Virgin Mary, Popes John Paul & Francis tell us more about their maimed theological formation than they do about Our Blessed Mother.

Contrary to the irreverent claim that Our Lady in her humanity may have thought to herself “Lies! I was deceived!”, Saint Alphonsus, in union with saints and holy Catholic teachers, assures us Our Lady was fully aware of the suffering Our Lord would endure. She was not confused about Our Lord’s predicted “kingdom” as were the blind Pharisees. The Passion did not take her by surprise or cause her to doubt in any way.

“Mary is the Queen of Martyrs” writes St. Alphonsus, “because her martyrdom lasted longer [the entire life of Christ] and was more severe than that of all other martyrs.”*3

Notes:

1. "Pope: silence guards one's relationship with God," Vatican.va, Dec. 20, 2012 2. Pope John Paul II’s Way of the Cross was published in L’Osservatore Romano, May 13, 2000. 3. For quotes, see The Glories of Mary, St. Alphonsus Ligouri, [Ligouri Publications, 2000] 250th Anniversary edition, pp. 282-298.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Mainline Protestant; Theology
KEYWORDS: francis; mary
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1 posted on 01/05/2014 9:52:14 AM PST by ebb tide
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To: annalex; xzins

Ping


2 posted on 01/05/2014 9:52:47 AM PST by ebb tide
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To: ebb tide

3 posted on 01/05/2014 9:56:41 AM PST by Joe 6-pack (Qui me amat, amat et canem meum.)
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To: ebb tide

This is a reading of the the tea leaves and even worse, an attempt to read Mary’s thoughts. Both interpretations are possible and are themselves wholly innocuous.


4 posted on 01/05/2014 10:02:38 AM PST by Steelfish (ui)
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To: ebb tide

Its only a denigration of Mary if you have her placed on too high a pedestal.


5 posted on 01/05/2014 10:03:25 AM PST by Vanders9
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To: ebb tide

I cannot help but muse that in at least one conversation Mary suggested that “maybe you should not go to Jerusalem.” I think she knew, as did Jesus, that it would not be good.


6 posted on 01/05/2014 10:03:36 AM PST by HChampagne
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To: ebb tide

Mr. Vennari thinks that he is more Catholic than the Pope.


7 posted on 01/05/2014 10:07:24 AM PST by iowamark (I must study politics and war that my sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy)
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To: ebb tide
Did Jesus know everything He had to suffer? Of course. Yet at Gethsemane He was sorrowful and sweating in trepidation, asking His Father three times if the cup could pass from His lips.

If the Lord could be so discomposed as the hour of truth approached, do you really think Our Lady could not have been similarly discomposed?

I'm not sure if either you or John Vennari have the spiritual acumen to engage in such extravagant criticism of the Holy Father. Perhaps a more prayerful, lest troll-like approach would be better.

Catherine of Siena you guys are not.

8 posted on 01/05/2014 10:10:36 AM PST by wideawake
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To: ebb tide

The one fact we know for sure about Mary is that she was a Jewish mother. Need I say more?


9 posted on 01/05/2014 10:16:35 AM PST by 1raider1
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To: ebb tide

““Mary is the Queen of Martyrs” writes St. Alphonsus, “

Protestants tend to make less of mary than they should. Catholics tend to make more of mary than they should.

This article is a great example of the second.
There is no evidence Mary knew her Son had to die as Messiah. Only that she was to bear Messiah.


10 posted on 01/05/2014 10:26:50 AM PST by aMorePerfectUnion (Truth is hate to those who hate the Truth)
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To: ebb tide
Pope Francis is certainly a newsmaker, as he continually utters confusing statements that leave Catholics reeling the world over. The above statement about Our Lady is certainly one of the most troublesome.

You guys are amazing...Untold numbers of people in your religion make us fables about Mary as does this posted piece and yet unlike your pope (in this instance) pervert the scriptures in the process...

Luk 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
Luk 1:29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.

Mary was pretty shook up...Obviously your pope and your pope only knew that...

LSJ Gloss:

διαταράσσω
to throw into great confusion, confound utterly

Strong's:

διαταράσσω
to disturb wholly, i.e. agitate (with alarm)

11 posted on 01/05/2014 10:33:10 AM PST by Iscool
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To: wideawake

I’m not sure if either you or John Vennari have the spiritual acumen to engage in such extravagant criticism of the Holy Father.

...idle speculation on your part...should a pontiff go off the deep end, and make utterances that are going south, extravagant criticism is the least he should receive, given his spiritual responsibility...

...of course, this particular pronouncement of his doesn’t really go too far south, in my humble estimation...


12 posted on 01/05/2014 10:33:13 AM PST by IrishBrigade
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To: ebb tide

Perhaps we should pray for the gift of humility for Mr. Vennari.

;-/


13 posted on 01/05/2014 10:37:03 AM PST by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo....Sum Pro Vita - Modified Descartes)
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To: 1raider1

AMEN.


14 posted on 01/05/2014 10:37:30 AM PST by Biggirl (¬ďGo, do not be afraid, and serve¬Ē-Pope Francis)
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To: Iscool

You guys are amazing...Untold numbers of people in your religion make us fables about Mary as does this posted piece and yet unlike your pope (in this instance) pervert the scriptures in the process...

...you know, one of the great verities in this world is that horse hockey, even when backed up with Koine Greek to give it false erudition, remains horse hockey...


15 posted on 01/05/2014 10:42:09 AM PST by IrishBrigade
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To: ebb tide; Colonel_Flagg
Pope Francis delivered a homily on Friday December 20, in which he gives the impression that the Crucifixion of Our Lord was something that took Our Lady by surprise, and that she may have been tempted to believe the Angel’s promise to her were ‘lies’, and that she was “deceived”. We will first present Pope Francis’ text from Vatican News Service and then provide the Catholic response.

IBTPWM

16 posted on 01/05/2014 10:42:20 AM PST by Alex Murphy ("the defacto Leader of the FR Calvinist Protestant Brigades")
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To: wideawake
I'm not sure if either you or John Vennari have the spiritual acumen to engage in such extravagant criticism of the Holy Father.

On the contrary; I'm not sure if the Bishop of Rome has the spiritual acumen to engage in mind-reading the Blessed Mother.

17 posted on 01/05/2014 11:03:32 AM PST by ebb tide
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To: SumProVita
Perhaps we should pray for the gift of humility for Mr. Vennari.

Perhaps there's others we could also pray for.

“We must include the excluded and preach peace. Vatican II, inspired by Pope John and Paul VI, decided to look to the future with a modern spirit and to open [the Church] to modern culture. The Council Fathers knew that opening to modern culture meant religious ecumenism and dialogue with non-believers. After then very little was done in that direction. I have the humility and ambition to want to do it.”Pope Francis

18 posted on 01/05/2014 11:10:41 AM PST by ebb tide
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To: iowamark

Actually, he may be.


19 posted on 01/05/2014 11:12:38 AM PST by ebb tide
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To: Iscool

The only Catholic making up fables about Mary is the current pope.


20 posted on 01/05/2014 11:14:25 AM PST by ebb tide
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To: ebb tide

I don’t know how old the author is, but I’d bet he’s one of the “new” Old Rite people who is more a old than the old and more Catholic than the Pope.

This was a standard homily or meditation on Our Lady when I was growing up (50s and pre-VII 60s) So I’m assuming he’s not well-read enough in traditional Catholic devotion or piety to understand this.


21 posted on 01/05/2014 11:15:55 AM PST by livius
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To: livius
This was a standard homily or meditation on Our Lady when I was growing up (50s and pre-VII 60s)

I don't believe the above statement. I grew up in the same time period. Maybe I payed more attention to the sermons.

22 posted on 01/05/2014 11:21:19 AM PST by ebb tide
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To: IrishBrigade
...you know, one of the great verities in this world is that horse hockey, even when backed up with Koine Greek to give it false erudition, remains horse hockey...

What does that mean in English??? Does that mean, 'bible, I don't need no stinkin' bible'???

23 posted on 01/05/2014 11:23:01 AM PST by Iscool
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To: Vanders9

On what pedestal would you put the Mother of God?


24 posted on 01/05/2014 11:24:15 AM PST by ebb tide
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To: ebb tide
The only Catholic making up fables about Mary is the current pope.

Thus Saint Alphonsus teaches that Our Lady was the “Queen of Martyrs,” as we recite in the Litany, since her martyrdom was “longer and greater than that of all the martyrs.”

So Mary never died yet she was a martyr...

So what do you do, store one truth on one side of your brain and the other truth on the other side and hope they never meet???

Q. Did Mary die as a martyr???
A. Well yes she did...All Catholics know that...

Q. Well then Mary was not assumed to heaven while still alive???
A. Well of course she was...Our Church has always taught that...

Oh, I see....get me outta' here, quick!!!

25 posted on 01/05/2014 11:38:05 AM PST by Iscool
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To: Vanders9

Its only a denigration of Mary if you have her placed on too high a pedestal.

____________________________________________________________

If Jesus was born the Son of God, one third of the Trinity and not just a boy who became a man who became God, then she is the Mother of God, so it is deserving of being placed on a high pedestal. She was not just some ordinary woman who just happened to give birth to our messiah.


26 posted on 01/05/2014 11:43:56 AM PST by NotTallTex
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To: Alex Murphy

You remembered.

Reading this thread, I just think this latest issue shows that nobody really understands what this Pope thinks, means, or says. If I were Catholic, that would worry me.


27 posted on 01/05/2014 11:52:29 AM PST by Colonel_Flagg (Some people meet their heroes. I raised mine. Go Army.)
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To: ebb tide

So the author likes the idea by St. Alphonsus, that Mary foreknew her Son’s death on the Cross better than Pope Francis’ idea that she could have been surprised by it.

Note first that this is a far cry from the earlier “Pope has blasphemed” that you and your friends or alter egos were running around with.

Second, there is not contradiction. The pope stated as a fact that Mary remained silent “in hope”, that is she remained in the faith. In order to better deliver her astonishing faith the Pope points out that the natural thing to do would be to feel betrayal. The pope never said that Mary was actually feeling betrayed.


28 posted on 01/05/2014 11:59:47 AM PST by annalex (fear them not)
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To: xzins

forgot to ping you to the post directed to both of us.


29 posted on 01/05/2014 12:00:53 PM PST by annalex (fear them not)
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To: annalex

So now you’re equating Francis with St. Alphonsus Ligouri?

Secondly, to my knowledge, I’m the only one, so far, who has accused the pope of blasphemy. And I stand by it.

You’re false accusations have become tiresome.


30 posted on 01/05/2014 12:08:31 PM PST by ebb tide
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To: Iscool

Actually, the Church doesn’t specifically teach Mary physically died or not, only that she was assumed bodily into Heaven. Pope Pius XII solemnly defined in Munificentissimus Deus on Nov. 1, 1950, that the “Immaculate Mother of God, the ever-virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory.” However, if she physically died, the Church doesn’t provide a date or means.

She is Queen of Martyrs, as she is also Queen of Heaven, as mother of the King, the first Christian martyr.

It seems logical to me that Mary, being human, would have any number of human questions. What were those questions? I don’t know. However, we can suppose she may have had questions, and how she may have responded.


31 posted on 01/05/2014 12:10:30 PM PST by SpirituTuo
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To: SpirituTuo

Think Enoch and Elijah. Similar words.

Genesis 5:24 says only that God “took” him (Enoch), but doesn’t say where. Sirach 44:16 and 49:14 make it clear that he was taken up from the earth, and Hebrews 11:5 adds “so that he should not see death.”

In Elijah’s case, 2 Kings 2:11 states that “Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.” First Maccabees 2:58 adds, “Elijah because of great zeal for the Law was taken up into heaven. “


32 posted on 01/05/2014 12:15:44 PM PST by SpirituTuo
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To: annalex; xzins

The pope said that Mary thought, “Lies! I was deceived!”

What part of “ feeling betrayed” does that not fall under?


33 posted on 01/05/2014 12:16:07 PM PST by ebb tide
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To: ebb tide

Both are my teachers.

If you stand by your thought that the Pope has blasphemed, despite my quite patient explanation what His holiness has said and what he did not say, then my accusation is not false. You have left the Catholic Church through your contumacy.


34 posted on 01/05/2014 12:16:42 PM PST by annalex (fear them not)
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To: ebb tide; xzins
The pope said that Mary thought, “Lies! I was deceived!”

No, His Holiness did not say that.

35 posted on 01/05/2014 12:18:01 PM PST by annalex (fear them not)
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To: SpirituTuo
It seems logical to me that Mary, being human, would have any number of human questions.

Good post. But you failed to mention that Mary, unlike other humans, was born without original sin.

36 posted on 01/05/2014 12:19:09 PM PST by ebb tide
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To: ebb tide

That is true, she was born without original sin, but having human nature, like her Son, she would have had any number of human thoughts.

Anyone can speculate on those thoughts, but none of them are recorded in Scripture.


37 posted on 01/05/2014 12:24:01 PM PST by SpirituTuo
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To: annalex
"patient explanation"?

"Anti-Catholic bigot"

"Cretin"

"Idiot"

"Look, get lost"

38 posted on 01/05/2014 12:26:01 PM PST by ebb tide
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To: SpirituTuo

But thoughts that were not sinful, correct?


39 posted on 01/05/2014 12:26:49 PM PST by ebb tide
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To: ebb tide

Stand by them...


40 posted on 01/05/2014 12:37:19 PM PST by annalex (fear them not)
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To: annalex

Good for you. Ever wonder why you have Protestants supporting you and I have none?


41 posted on 01/05/2014 12:39:09 PM PST by ebb tide
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To: ebb tide

I don’t wonder about other Freepers, especially who left the Catholic Church.


42 posted on 01/05/2014 1:05:23 PM PST by annalex (fear them not)
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To: annalex
the Pope points out that the natural thing to do would be to feel betrayal.

betrayal: go against promise: to act in a way that is contrary to a promise made

The Lord's Passion was foretold in Isaiah 53 and Psalms 22:16 and was the fulfillment of God's promise. Therefore, when our Blessed Mother gave her fiat, she knew what she was consenting to, and thus the speculations regarding a sense of "betrayal" on her part contradict what we know to be true.

53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

---------------

For many dogs have encompassed me: the council of the malignant hath besieged me. They have dug my hands and feet.

43 posted on 01/05/2014 1:10:00 PM PST by BlatherNaut
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To: annalex

Good. Let me know when you come back to the Church.


44 posted on 01/05/2014 1:21:32 PM PST by ebb tide
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To: BlatherNaut
The Pope did not say Mary felt betrayed. He said the natural thing for her to do would feel betrayed, yet she was not:
perhaps she had the urge to say: ‘Lies! I was deceived!' [...] But She, with silence, covered the mystery that She did not understand and with this silence she left this mystery so that it could grow and flourish in hope.
Pope Francis: Silence Reveals the Mystery of God's Plan
45 posted on 01/05/2014 1:26:08 PM PST by annalex (fear them not)
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To: annalex

You guys never quote in full context. I wonder why.


46 posted on 01/05/2014 2:05:33 PM PST by ebb tide
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To: ebb tide; piusv; BlatherNaut; annalex

I think y’all are messin’ with this protestant pastor coming up with all these Francis Mary treads.

Is there a Saint Francis Mary the Protestor?

If there is, I’m gonna LOL!


47 posted on 01/05/2014 2:11:42 PM PST by xzins ( Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Those who truly support our troops pray for victory!)
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To: annalex
perhaps she had the urge to say: ‘Lies! I was deceived!'

If I happened to be speaking about you and said "perhaps he had the urge to say: 'Lies! I was deceived!', the implication would be clear - that in fact your possession of such thoughts would have to exist within the realm of possibility (which scripture, traditional Church teaching, history, and common sense demonstrate to be untrue in the case of our Blessed Mother, who was perfectly united with Our Lord in His Passion.) The words ("perhaps she had the urge to say: ‘Lies! I was deceived!") in association with the Mother of God (even in a speculative sense) are demonstrably counterfactual, which is the reason Pope Francis' remarks resulted in such widespread incredulity. If the objective was to contrast her response with that of an ordinary person, then the effort fell short, because the words that would have made the supposed contrast unambiguous are simply not there.

If this WIDESPREAD surprise and confusion among the faithful is the result of a poor choice of words on his part, then perhaps the Vatican ought to issue another clarification.

48 posted on 01/05/2014 2:19:04 PM PST by BlatherNaut
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To: ebb tide; piusv; BlatherNaut; Cronos; Kolokotronis
Pope Francis, by claiming Our Lady was probably surprised and confused by the drama of the Crucifixion, actually promotes a Protestant reading of the Blessed Mother that emphasizes her “humanity” over the unique exalted gifts she received as Mother of God.

I don't wanna bust yer bubble, but Francis' homily and its understanding of Mary was way too high a view of Mary for almost the entire field of churches derived in some way, shape, or form from those early protestant churches. And it's too high a view even for the descendants of the original Protestans, except maybe historically the Anglican, and the Anglicans barely count any more given their many heresies -- (with apologies to the African Primates)

That homily is Roman Catholic or it's nothing. Realizing that I think you are misinterpreting the homily, maybe the human view of Mary is more orthodox. Perhaps the Orthodox have a high view of God's Ark but also one that doesn't require her sinless conception to such an extent that it prevents the human human from shining through.

49 posted on 01/05/2014 2:24:07 PM PST by xzins ( Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Those who truly support our troops pray for victory!)
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To: ebb tide

Source? Context?


50 posted on 01/05/2014 2:44:37 PM PST by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo....Sum Pro Vita - Modified Descartes)
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