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My Wife and I are Atheists, but Our Daughter Wants to be Baptised Catholic
The Guardian (UK) ^ | 1/14/14 | James Harrington

Posted on 01/14/2014 8:25:45 PM PST by marshmallow

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To: 353FMG

I wonder about that at our own. It’s VERY diverse, hardly stereotypical. Makes me concerned some parents aren’t that Christian.


51 posted on 01/15/2014 5:05:58 AM PST by the OlLine Rebel (Common sense is an uncommon virtue./Technological progress cannot be legislated.)
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To: Salvation

Most service books indicate when to sit stand and kneel, too.


52 posted on 01/15/2014 5:08:04 AM PST by the OlLine Rebel (Common sense is an uncommon virtue./Technological progress cannot be legislated.)
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To: marshmallow

Sounds like the child has more brains than her parents— sort of reminds me of the story of William Murray the son of that now dead (done in by her own kind) atheist Madalyn Murray-OHair.


53 posted on 01/15/2014 6:27:33 AM PST by StonyBurk (ring)
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To: marshmallow

Good for your daughter.


54 posted on 01/15/2014 7:43:34 AM PST by Georgia Girl 2 (The only purpose of a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should never have dropped.)
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To: House Atreides
John Rooney: There are only murderers in this room! Michael! Open your eyes! This is the life we chose, the life we lead. And there is only one guarantee: none of us will see heaven.

Michael Sullivan: Michael(his son) could.

--The Road to Perdition

55 posted on 01/15/2014 8:04:09 AM PST by mc5cents (Pray for America)
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To: marshmallow

The parents did the right thing. They let an educated kid make a decision for themselves after they experienced enough life to make that decision. They didn’t brainwash their child.

Bring on the flames but admit something to yourself. Every Christian on this probably holds a poor view of Islam. especially the stories of kids being brainwashed by the faith, having to memorize the Koran etc...

If Islam didn’t do that, instead let kids alone to make a choice themselves at say age 16 to 18...how many Muslims would be in this world? I admit it’s not quite the same with Christianity but its the same. If kids weren’t indoctrinated at an early age, told to fear the lord and fera for their eternal souls etc...we’d have waaay less people at church. Fact.

personally I’m atheist. If my kids choose to join a church when they’re older, so be it. At least they will have arrived at that decision through no biased influence.


56 posted on 01/15/2014 8:04:55 AM PST by strider44
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To: Fai Mao

‘Leap of Faith’ by Kimberly Bradley.


57 posted on 01/15/2014 8:13:24 AM PST by pbear8 (the Lord is my light and my salvation)
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To: ifinnegan; rwilson99
“...life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one...”

Today's scientific instruments tell us, according to page 284 of Steve Jones "Darwin's Ghost" that ...

About a thousand genes are shared by every organism, however simple or complicated. Although their common ancestor must have lived more than a billion years ago, their shared structure can still be glimpsed. It shows how the grand plan of life has been modified through the course of evolution."

58 posted on 01/15/2014 8:22:02 AM PST by OldNavyVet (Robert's revenge lies in our getting rid of Democrat control in House, Senate and Preisdent.)
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To: marshmallow
...I came to the conclusion that I prefer the scientific theory of life and the universe to the spiritual one.

And they differ how?

59 posted on 01/15/2014 8:35:55 AM PST by onedoug
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To: OldNavyVet

I am impressed that the Sex Pistol’s guitarist knows so much about molecular biology.

Still, he’s not quite correct in his description. The thousand or so genes are not shared in that they are not the same but are orthologs. They vary greatly from each other among species and throughout phyla. The gene products share the greatest conservation of structure among these thousand or so genes and retain among themselves properties of primary, secondary and tertiary structure and often retain function over the continuum of “simple” to “complicated” organisms.

These observations hardly are a “theory of life and the universe”.


60 posted on 01/15/2014 8:39:50 AM PST by ifinnegan
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To: ifinnegan
Sorry to say, your research gets an "F" reward ...

From Wikipedia ...

John Stephen Jones FRS[2] (born 24 March 1944) is a Welsh geneticist and from 1995 to 1999 and 2008 to June 2010 was Head of the Department of Genetics, Evolution and Environment at University College London.[3][4] His studies are conducted in the Galton Laboratory. He is also a television presenter and a prize-winning author on the subject of biology, especially evolution. He is one of the contemporary popular writers on evolution. In 1996 his writing won him the Royal Society Michael Faraday Prize "for his numerous, wide ranging contributions to the public understanding of science in areas such as human evolution and variation, race, sex, inherited disease and genetic manipulation through his many broadcasts on radio and television, his lectures, popular science books, and his regular science column in The Daily Telegraph and contributions to other newspaper media".

Have a great day.

61 posted on 01/15/2014 8:53:49 AM PST by OldNavyVet (Robert's revenge lies in our getting rid of Democrat control in House, Senate and Preisdent.)
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To: OldNavyVet

“Sorry to say, your research gets an “F” reward ...”

I think you are mistaking “my research” for your sense of humor.


62 posted on 01/15/2014 9:14:08 AM PST by ifinnegan
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To: strider44

Do you just tell your kids both sides of the political spectrum so as not to bias them so they can choose when they or 16 or 18?

Or how about murder. Let them decide if it’s right or wrong, don’t bias them?

I don’t really understand your point.


63 posted on 01/15/2014 9:17:06 AM PST by ifinnegan
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To: marshmallow

Here’s just 2 links to show you or Mr. Harrington how much the PTB like to promote/demote facts that fit their agendas...

101 Evidences for a Young Age of the Earth...And the Universe
http://creation.com/age-of-the-earth

Center for Scientific Creation - In the Beginning: Compelling Evidence for Creation and the Flood
http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/IntheBeginningTOC.html


64 posted on 01/15/2014 9:42:36 AM PST by BrandtMichaels
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To: Bobalu

very good


65 posted on 01/15/2014 9:53:45 AM PST by Friendofgeorge ( Palin 2016 or bust)
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To: ifinnegan

I don’t talk alot of politics with my kids. However, my advice would boil down the same way - decide for yourself. they’ll be 18 soon enough and will then be allowed to pull the lever however they see fit. I can argue my case I suppose, but again, they have a much better chance of understanding my argument if they approach from a non-biased standpoint.

Religion is no different. Once their life has some context and they can understand the history theyve read...then they can make an informed decision. How many versions are there? Muslims, Jews, Christians (how many Christian flavors?), Mormons, Budhist, etc...Choose one or choose none. Just make your own choice.

As for the murder question...that’s absolutely ridiculous. How many societies on earth tolerate murder? I suppose a few. And those that do probably use religion to justify it. Muslim killing Christians or Jews.

Youre basically saying because i don’t give my kids a religous education I can’t teach them what’s morally right or wrong? Sure. Rape? Sure son. Decide for yourself if its good or bad. Give me a break.

Here’s my point. I could have my 8 year old son listen to a 1-hour presentation from a religous scholar representing Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Hindus, Muslims, etc. All would make compelling arguments that theirs is the one true faith and the only way to salvation/heaven/reincarnation/ whatever...

He will not have the experience and or mental capacity to judge who is correct. That will only come with more life experience and independence. If he wakes up at 25 and through experience and/or revalation decides the Jews have it right...so be it. He can drive over and see the local Rabbi. He can then decide how he wants to feel about people praising or mocking his decision. He can form his own response to kind Christians telling him he’s damned himself to hell.


66 posted on 01/15/2014 10:03:29 AM PST by strider44
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To: strider44

“Youre basically saying because i don’t give my kids a religous education I can’t teach them what’s morally right or wrong?”

I did not say that at all. Nor imply it. I was addressing your logic, or lack of consistency in your reasoning.

I got to tell you, you are presenting liberal party line logic.

I’ve heard this “let the kids decide” over and over from the liberals.

“As for the murder question...that’s absolutely ridiculous. How many societies on earth tolerate murder?”

Does whether or not others tolerate something define right and wrong?


67 posted on 01/15/2014 10:18:42 AM PST by ifinnegan
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To: ifinnegan

Do you just tell your kids both sides of the political spectrum so as not to bias them so they can choose when they or 16 or 18?

Or how about murder. Let them decide if it’s right or wrong, don’t bias them?

<><><><<>

One of these things is not like the others:

Choosing one’s religion
Choosing one’s politics
Choosing whether to murder or not

I’m sure you could have come up with something better than murder, because, just for the record, it’s an absurd analog.


68 posted on 01/15/2014 10:42:43 AM PST by dmz
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To: dmz

It’s not an analogy, it’s an examination of the logic.

Tiresome to be subjected to obtuseness.

But, that’s how it goes.


69 posted on 01/15/2014 10:44:55 AM PST by ifinnegan
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To: ifinnegan

I see no evidence that you have studied logic, or really understand what is meant by logic in this particular instance.

Here’s why.

Choosing a religion or a political stance is a personal matter impacting no one but the individual in question.

Not the case with murder.

See how that works?


70 posted on 01/15/2014 10:55:50 AM PST by dmz
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To: ifinnegan

I don’t see how you could think I’m presenting liberal party line logic. I’m just trying to point out an obvious problem with religous indoctrination. The problem being that educated, sincere people all over the world have come to radically different conclusions about God.

Can’t you see the problem in this? A problem that is only ultimately solved by one party “winning” the argument. Unfortunately not all religons proscribe to “live and let live.”

I can explain my beliefs to my children. I can be a positive role model, etc. It doesn’t change the fact that literally BILLIONS of people think I’m wrong and will ultimately suffer a horrible fate because of it.

We’re lucky to live in a country that at least allows you to explore the question from different points of view. I think I’m doing my kids a service by letting them make their own decision.

In any event, I respect your opinion and thanks for the response.


71 posted on 01/15/2014 10:56:01 AM PST by strider44
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To: detective

You assumed? Didn’t you ask?

Don’t you think that a convert with the name, Mohammed, would change it to a Christian name?


72 posted on 01/15/2014 11:35:54 AM PST by 353FMG
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To: 353FMG

I was working as an usher and doing crowd supervision. A lot of families, relatives, etc had to be seated in the correct place in a crowded church and directed to the reception afterward. I just heard the name. I did not see or know the family. I would not impose on a family of strangers at such an occasion by hunting them down in a crowd and asking them questions.


73 posted on 01/15/2014 11:44:54 AM PST by detective
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To: OldNavyVet

Again more extraordinary parallels between science and the Genesis creation narrative.

Genesis goes from day 5 birds and fish... To day 6 animals and then humans.

What commonalities between human and non human organisms can’t explain is the theory that the 250+ proteins that are necessary to form a single cell organism were forms by random chance. In addition, there is no proof anywhere in physics to demonstrate that an effect can in fact be greater than its cause.

The idea that something can come from nothing simply contradicts physical laws of motion and the massive amount of evidence that the universe had a beginning several billion years ago.

At the end of the day you can except a supernatural cause for the universe and maintain the laws of physics or you can reject both. One makes little sense without the other.


74 posted on 01/15/2014 11:52:32 AM PST by rwilson99 (Please tell me how the words "shall not perish and have everlasting life" would NOT apply to Mary.)
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To: strider44

My observation that this is a common approach among liberals is all I am saying. It doesn’t mean you are liberal per se.

“I think I’m doing my kids a service by letting them make their own decision.”

That’s the point. No matter what the approach, a parent is imparting their beliefs to their children.


75 posted on 01/15/2014 12:00:57 PM PST by ifinnegan
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To: dmz

“Choosing a religion or a political stance is a personal matter impacting no one but the individual in question.”

Try to pay attention.

The question is not committing murder but the belief that it is right or wrong.

Believing murder is not wrong also does not impact anyone else within the context of your premise.

So why not let the child decide when he or she is 18 if murder is right or wrong?


76 posted on 01/15/2014 12:06:23 PM PST by ifinnegan
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To: strider44; ifinnegan
Here's something to think about.

"What is the symbolic meaning of the proverb, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink?"

Answer ...

"Essentially, the proverb of the horse and water points metaphorically to the need for each person to take ownership of his or her own life. An individual has to desire to drink, to learn, to live and to thrive. Although others may provide opportunities for nourishment, learning, advice and assistance, no one can force another to participate in real living or right choices."

77 posted on 01/15/2014 12:13:50 PM PST by OldNavyVet (Robert's revenge lies in our getting rid of Democrat control in House, Senate and Preisdent.)
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To: miss marmelstein

>I always think these Guardian CiF stories are made up. They are always too glib, too perfect, too pat. This fits right in the mold.<

You recognize social engineering too easily to be fooled by it.


78 posted on 01/15/2014 12:22:53 PM PST by B4Ranch (Name your illness, do a Google & YouTube search with "hydrogen peroxide". Do it and be surprised.)
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To: B4Ranch

I look at CiF every day. The editorials are what are called click bait.

For instance, the British have a Dracula-looking-at-a-Cross problem when it comes to American tipping habits. So every couple of weeks is an editorial about American minimum wage and the slavery wages of waiters. Thousands descend to beat their chests on our cruelty towards our wait staff. Actually, the problem is they hate to dig their hands deep in their pockets.


79 posted on 01/15/2014 12:58:11 PM PST by miss marmelstein (Richard Lives Yet!)
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To: OldNavyVet

And forcing the horse’s head in to the water to make him drink could end up drowning him as well.


80 posted on 01/15/2014 1:31:30 PM PST by ifinnegan
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To: Tax-chick; GregB; Berlin_Freeper; SumProVita; narses; bboop; SevenofNine; Ronaldus Magnus; tiki; ...
Our little girl, however, has made a life-defining decision by herself. I couldn't be more proud of her. But I cannot deny that what she said to my wife and I stopped us briefly in our slightly smug, religiously disinterested, bleeding-heart liberal tracks.

What courage had it taken for her to tell us what she wanted? It was clear that our brave, sweet daughter had thought about her faith long and hard.

Catholic ping!

81 posted on 01/15/2014 2:14:52 PM PST by NYer ("The wise man is the one who can save his soul. - St. Nimatullah Al-Hardini)
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To: NYer; zot

Reincarnation?


82 posted on 01/15/2014 2:17:39 PM PST by GreyFriar (Spearhead - 3rd Armored Division 75-78 & 83-87)
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To: ifinnegan

Try to pay attention.

The question is not committing murder but the belief that it is right or wrong.

Believing murder is not wrong also does not impact anyone else within the context of your premise.

So why not let the child decide when he or she is 18 if murder is right or wrong?

<><><><><

LOL. You just cannot help yourself, can you?

I simply cannot accept that a sentient being such as yourself is struggling with the distinction between beliefs as they relate to one’s religion, one’s political stance, and one’s position on murder.

You’ve clearly twisted yourself in knots to attempt to make these three things look the same.

The only Pretzel Logic I care for is the album by Steely Dan.


83 posted on 01/15/2014 2:27:24 PM PST by dmz
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To: GreyFriar; NYer; zot; marsh-mellow

I find this paragraph buried toward the end rather interesting:

“Looking back, we realised we had regularly discussed our differing beliefs. Our daughter brought us Genesis. We gave her the Michael Bay-friendly Big Bang. She brought us the Nativity and peace and goodwill at Christmas. We gave her family, friends and good food. She brought us the crucifixion. We gave her the Easter Bunny. She brought us heaven, god and an afterlife. We gave her 21st-century life and a brief future as worm fodder.”

their daughter learned that there is more to life than ending up as ‘worm fodder’ after our body expires and that our souls continue to live and have a home to go to after exile here. Her parents apparently are content to believe that physical life on this hunk of dirt is the beginning and end.


84 posted on 01/15/2014 3:17:40 PM PST by GreyFriar (Spearhead - 3rd Armored Division 75-78 & 83-87)
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To: Salvation

My cousin’s husband, after a career in the Marine Corps, became a teacher and went to work in a Catholic school near Philadelphia. Eventually he became principal. Even after the school closed and he moved to another, he remained friends with the priest from the first parish, and finally, he and my cousin both joined the Catholic Church.

When my husband and I joined the Church, my mother said, “Thank God your grandpop is in his grave!” He was a bit prejudiced, having grown up Protestant in Northern Ireland. Now, half of his grandchildren and almost all his great-grandchildren are Catholic.


85 posted on 01/15/2014 3:20:11 PM PST by Tax-chick (Tell the mad chameleon he's not welcome anymore.)
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To: Gene Eric
Atheists are idiots.

They prefer to be their own authority. They do not wish to admit that there is any greater authority than themselves. It is a close to pure hedonism as you can get.

86 posted on 01/15/2014 3:58:21 PM PST by verga (Poor spiritual health often leads to poor physical and mental health)
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To: Tax-chick

What a great family story. I bet you laugh about your grandfather’s views when you get together.


87 posted on 01/15/2014 4:27:07 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

In a way, but we all respect Pop’s memory. He was the youngest of 13 children, on a farm in Northern Ireland not much bigger than my house lot. He came to the U.S. in 1920, after joining the British Army for World War I but being kicked out because they found out he was 15. (His mom came to drag him home by his ear!)

It was a different world. Nowadays, most Irish are more concerned about the E.U. and its regulations than they are about whether anyone is Catholic or Protestant.


88 posted on 01/15/2014 4:32:03 PM PST by Tax-chick (Tell the mad chameleon he's not welcome anymore.)
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To: strider44; ifinnegan; GreyFriar
Religion is no different. Once their life has some context and they can understand the history theyve read...then they can make an informed decision. How many versions are there? Muslims, Jews, Christians (how many Christian flavors?), Mormons, Budhist, etc...Choose one or choose none. Just make your own choice.

History is full of men who have claimed that they came from God, or that they were gods, or that they bore messages from God - Buddha, Mohammed, Confucius, Christ, Lao-tze, and thousands of others, right down to the person who founded a new religion this very day. Each of them has a right to be heard and considered. But as a yardstick external to and outside of whatever is to be measured is needed, so there must be some permanent tests available to all men, all civilizations, and all ages, by which they can decide whether any of these claimants, or all of them, are justified in their claims. These tests are of two kinds: reason and history. Reason, because everyone has it, even those without faith; history, because everyone lives in it and should know something about it.

Reason dictates that if any one of these men actually came from God, the least thing that God could do to support His claim would be to pre-announce His coming. Automobile manufacturers tell their customers when to expect a new model. If God sent anyone from Himself, or if He came Himself with a vitally important message for all men, it would seem reasonable that He would first let men know when His messenger was coming, where He would be born, where He would live, the doctrine He would teach, the enemies He would make, the program He would adopt for the future, and the manner of His death. By the extent to which the messenger conformed with these announcements, one could judge the validity of his claims.

Reason further assures us that if God did not do this, then there would be nothing to prevent any impostor from appearing in history and saying, "I come from God," or "An angel appeared to me in the desert and gave me this message." In such cases there would be no objective, historical way of testing the messenger. We would have only his word for it, and of course he could be wrong.

If a visitor came from a foreign country to Washington and said he was a diplomat, the government would ask him for his passport and other documents testifying that he represented a certain government. His papers would have to antedate his coming. If such proofs of identity are asked from delegates of other countries, reason certainly ought to do so with messengers who claim to have come from God. To each claimant reason says, "What record was there before you were born that you were coming?"

With this test one can evaluate the claimants. Socrates had no one to foretell his birth. Buddha had no one to pre-announce him and his message or tell the day when he would sit under the tree. Confucius did not have the name of his mother and his birthplace recorded, nor were they given to men centuries before he arrived so that when he did come, men would know he was a messenger from God. But, with Christ, it was different. Because of the OT prophecies, His coming was not unexpected. There were no predictions about Buddha, Confucius, Lao-tze, Mohammed , or anyone else; but there were predictions about Christ. Others just came and said, "Here I am, believe me". Christ alone stepped out of that line saying, "Search the writings of the Jewish people and the related history of the Babylonians, Persians, and Romans." Even the pagan, Tacitus, speaking for the ancient Romans, says, "People were generally persuaded in the faith of the ancient prophecies, that the East was to prevail, and that from Judea was to come the Master and Ruler of the world." China had the same expectations, as did the Greeks.

Another distinguishing fact is that once He appeared, He struck history with such impact that He split it in two, dividing it into two periods: one before His coming, the other after it. Buddha did not do this, nor any of the great Indian philosophers. Even those who deny God must date their attacks upon Him, A.D. so and so, or so many years after His coming.

The story of every human life begins with birth and ends with death. In the Person of Christ, however, it was His death that was first and His life that was last. It was not so much that His birth cast a shadow on His life and thus led to His death; it was rather that the Cross was first, and cast its shadow back to His birth. His has been the only life in the world that was ever lived backward.

89 posted on 01/15/2014 5:20:58 PM PST by NYer ("The wise man is the one who can save his soul. - St. Nimatullah Al-Hardini)
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To: GreyFriar
Reincarnation?

Indoctrination.

90 posted on 01/15/2014 8:24:51 PM PST by zot
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To: GreyFriar
their daughter learned that there is more to life than ending up as ‘worm fodder’ after our body expires and that our souls continue to live and have a home to go to after exile here. Her parents apparently are content to believe that physical life on this hunk of dirt is the beginning and end.

Yes.

91 posted on 01/15/2014 8:26:17 PM PST by zot
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To: verga

The folly lies in the assertion that what cannot be perceived nor rationalized cannot legitimately exist — anywhere.


92 posted on 01/15/2014 8:51:44 PM PST by Gene Eric (Don't be a statist!)
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To: marshmallow

I was about to say that when you present your daughter for baptism, you promise to raise her as a Catholic....however, now I realize that she is old enough to make her own decisions...support her, love her, and look at it this way, if there is no God, as you believe, no one loses anything, and if there is a God, which there is, she has everything to gain!!!!


93 posted on 01/15/2014 9:25:56 PM PST by terycarl
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To: Veggie Todd
Woody IS a joke. Funny you would pick such a pervert to prove your point. What's next, you're going to quote the pedophile priests?

I've been on this site for many years....and yours is the most inane and despicable post I've ever sen.....PATHETIC

94 posted on 01/15/2014 9:35:00 PM PST by terycarl
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To: 353FMG
Don’t you think that a convert with the name, Mohammed, would change it to a Christian name

NO....the name does not make the man!!!!

95 posted on 01/15/2014 9:42:12 PM PST by terycarl
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To: strider44
The parents did the right thing. They let an educated kid make a decision for themselves after they experienced enough life to make that decision. They didn’t brainwash their child.

This girl is only 8 years old. From the article =>

About five years ago, work took me, my fellow-journalist wife and our then three-year-old child from eastern England to southwest France.

96 posted on 01/17/2014 7:38:27 PM PST by Ken H (What happens on the internet, stays on the internet.)
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