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Irresistable Grace (Calvinist humor)

Posted on 01/17/2014 10:17:41 AM PST by dangus



TOPICS: Humor; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: catholic
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Most perfume ads are utter depravity, but not this one!:

Enjoy the fragrance of TULIP! The perseverance of the scents will beguile you!

1 posted on 01/17/2014 10:17:41 AM PST by dangus
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To: dangus
May the scents protect us...

Actually, I've got that grace stuff all over me all the time. Best stuff going...:)

2 posted on 01/17/2014 10:20:48 AM PST by PapaNew
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To: dangus

Thank You!!


3 posted on 01/17/2014 10:30:55 AM PST by MeshugeMikey (This Message NOT Approved By The N.S.A.)
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To: dangus

CALVINIST BASHING!!!!!

Just kidding. That’s pretty funny.


4 posted on 01/17/2014 10:34:53 AM PST by Gamecock (Celebrating 20,000 posts of dubious quality.)
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To: dangus
Enjoy the fragrance of TULIP!

So you imagine a god who created beings - by no fault of their own - to suffer the torments of hell for all eternity.

God chooses whomever he pleases and passes over the rest. That is an evil god.

5 posted on 01/17/2014 10:37:13 AM PST by FatherofFive (Islam is evil and must be eradicated)
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To: dangus

But that is very funny and clever.


6 posted on 01/17/2014 10:38:47 AM PST by FatherofFive (Islam is evil and must be eradicated)
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To: FatherofFive
So you imagine a god who created beings - by no fault of their own - to suffer the torments of hell for all eternity.

No. We are ALL sinful and worthy of hell. You've gotten angry with someone? That is a sin. Looked lustfully at someone? Sin. Lied? Sin. As God's justice demands punishment, THAT is why we need a Saviour! In His mercy, He sent JESUS to die in our stead; THAT is His mercy!

7 posted on 01/17/2014 10:44:40 AM PST by A Formerly Proud Canadian (I once was blind, but now I see...)
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To: dangus

Now that is funny.


8 posted on 01/17/2014 10:46:34 AM PST by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: A Formerly Proud Canadian
You've gotten angry with someone? That is a sin.

No, it's not

Looked lustfully at someone? Sin.

Yes, it is

Lied? Sin.

Yes, it is

9 posted on 01/17/2014 10:49:08 AM PST by ShadowAce (Linux -- The Ultimate Windows Service Pack)
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To: FatherofFive
by no fault of their own

Methinks you have your anthropology wrong....
10 posted on 01/17/2014 10:50:37 AM PST by armydoc
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To: Gamecock

I think it is evidence of Theology Envy. . . . :)


11 posted on 01/17/2014 10:54:12 AM PST by RatRipper (The political left are utterly evil and corrupt)
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To: FatherofFive

If you design your own universe and then implement your design, you’ll have to decide who is good and who is evil.

You can design it so that everyone goes to heaven, even the most evil people.

Then there really would be no difference between good and evil in your universe.

In any case, your design will be a reflection of you.


12 posted on 01/17/2014 11:00:17 AM PST by PieterCasparzen (We have to fix things ourselves)
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To: RatRipper

Don’t read any satire into it; it’s pure pun and wordplay.


13 posted on 01/17/2014 11:01:23 AM PST by dangus
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To: ShadowAce
You've gotten angry with someone? That is a sin.

No, it's not

Matthew 5:22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, 'Raca,' is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

14 posted on 01/17/2014 11:02:43 AM PST by A Formerly Proud Canadian (I once was blind, but now I see...)
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To: dangus

I was just havin’ a little fun too


15 posted on 01/17/2014 11:03:42 AM PST by RatRipper (The political left are utterly evil and corrupt)
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To: A Formerly Proud Canadian

Hmm—So Jesus wasn’t sinless after all since he was pretty angry as He cleared out the temple (John 2).


16 posted on 01/17/2014 11:05:27 AM PST by ShadowAce (Linux -- The Ultimate Windows Service Pack)
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To: dangus

Do I see by your posts that you are a Roman Catholic ?


17 posted on 01/17/2014 11:06:31 AM PST by PieterCasparzen (We have to fix things ourselves)
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To: A Formerly Proud Canadian

Ephesians 4 got it wrong also.


18 posted on 01/17/2014 11:06:42 AM PST by ShadowAce (Linux -- The Ultimate Windows Service Pack)
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To: armydoc

Precisely. A common misreading of Calvin jumps from omniscience to predestination without so much as a breath. They are not the same. God cannot be surprised but He can be disobeyed.
Knowing (precognition of) the choice you will make does not make Him happy with your choice. It remains, however, your choice.


19 posted on 01/17/2014 11:09:52 AM PST by Louis Foxwell (This is a wake up call. Join the Sultan Knish ping list.)
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To: A Formerly Proud Canadian

“With someone” (your words) does not equal “brother or sister” (Scripture).


20 posted on 01/17/2014 11:10:33 AM PST by ShadowAce (Linux -- The Ultimate Windows Service Pack)
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To: ShadowAce
Was He angry with the Pharisees and the merchants who were using the Temple as a place of business or, was He angry at their actions?

HINT: Matthew 18:21-22.

21 posted on 01/17/2014 11:11:19 AM PST by A Formerly Proud Canadian (I once was blind, but now I see...)
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To: PieterCasparzen
you’ll have to decide who is good and who is evil

No. You give them a free will to see if they will listen to your message. They decide if they choose good or evil. There is no question of the elect. The problem is 'double pre-destination' when your god creates beings to suffer forever in hell, with no chance whatsoever for salvation.

22 posted on 01/17/2014 11:16:33 AM PST by FatherofFive (Islam is evil and must be eradicated)
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To: Louis Foxwell

A mentor described it to me this way - many moons ago now:

The call to salvation is universal - a public invitation to the banquet - the wedding feast of the Lamb. Inside the entrance to the hall is found the sign: ‘Welcome, My Chosen Ones’


23 posted on 01/17/2014 11:17:57 AM PST by jonno (Having an opinion is not the same as having the answer...)
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To: armydoc
Methinks you have your anthropology wrong....

Say more. If they were created that way....

24 posted on 01/17/2014 11:18:16 AM PST by FatherofFive (Islam is evil and must be eradicated)
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To: PieterCasparzen

Yes, but I just thought this was too funny to let go by... and in no ways belittles anyone.


25 posted on 01/17/2014 11:18:39 AM PST by dangus
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To: Louis Foxwell
It remains, however, your choice

Yes, but one can only "choose" according to one's nature. The unregenerate will never "choose" God because that is not their nature; they are spiritually dead God-haters and cannot choose Him.

After God's sovereign act of regeneration, however, one has a new nature, a nature that connot help but "choose" God.
26 posted on 01/17/2014 11:19:49 AM PST by armydoc
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To: A Formerly Proud Canadian
anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment

A couple thoughts:
- without claiming to understand the original text, 'is' in the above context sounds more like a state of mind - than an event. Iow, staying angry is definitely a sin.

- in ref. to judgment: everyone will judged. Whether or not one's heart is actually in the right place during a moment of anger, may be a matter for God to judge...

27 posted on 01/17/2014 11:25:52 AM PST by jonno (Having an opinion is not the same as having the answer...)
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To: ShadowAce; A Formerly Proud Canadian

I don’t actually see the word “anger,” or any permutations, or any synonyms of any permutations in that passage. His behavior was both rational and effective.

Part of the problem is that English now uses one word (”emotion”) in the place of a different word (”feeling”). Anger is a feeling, meaning we actually feel it. Although the word “emotion” now has become synonymous with feeling, it used to include rational inspirations for action. So if your face gets red and you steam up the car window, you’re angry. But you should be able to decide to right a wrong without such anger.

Jesus came as a peace-maker; peace-makers are not angry.

Anti-hypocrisy note: Anger is one of my personal vices. But contrary to the foolish psychotherapists of the 1970s (dating back to Freud and even Luther), stoking anger and physicality is very counterproductive to overcoming a tendency to anger.


28 posted on 01/17/2014 11:27:42 AM PST by dangus
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To: armydoc
Yes, but one can only "choose" according to one's nature. The unregenerate will never "choose" God because that is not their nature; they are spiritually dead God-haters and cannot choose Him.

If this is true, they were created that way. Only an evil god would do this.

"If anyone says that it is not in the power of man to make his ways evil, but that God produces the evil as well as the good works, not only by permission, but also properly and of himself, so that the betrayal of Judas is no less his own proper work than the vocation of Paul, let him be anathema.... If anyone shall say that the grace of justification is attained by those only who are predestined unto life, but that all others, who are called, are called indeed, but do not receive grace, as if they are by divine power predestined to evil, let him be anathema." - The Council of Trent

29 posted on 01/17/2014 11:32:01 AM PST by FatherofFive (Islam is evil and must be eradicated)
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To: jonno

“Subject to judgment” is a poor translation. The King James says, “in danger of the judgment.” “Subject to” used to mean “thrown down under.” Hence, a “subject” to a ruler was one who was thrown beneath that ruler. To be under judgment means you lost in the face of the judge.


30 posted on 01/17/2014 11:33:02 AM PST by dangus
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To: FatherofFive
Say more. If they were created that way....

OK, Christian anthropology 101:

1) Man created sinless, but able to choose to sin
2) Man (Adam) chooses to sin and thereby passes on his sin-nature to all of his descedents. All therefore are sinners, cannot help but sin, and deserve God's wrath and punishment
3) God chooses to save some (but not all) for His own sovereign purposes. He regenerates them which results in them repenting of their sins, proclaiming faith in Him, and then progressively becoming more like Him (sanctification). They can then choose not to sin though they still carry a sin nature and will still often sin
4)Glorification results in the inability sin
31 posted on 01/17/2014 11:34:03 AM PST by armydoc
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To: dangus

Fair enough.

I have no choice then but to fall back on my first point, and claim to have a correct understanding of what the meaning of ‘is’ is...
8^)


32 posted on 01/17/2014 11:37:42 AM PST by jonno (Having an opinion is not the same as having the answer...)
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To: armydoc
They can then choose not to sin

Do 'All' have the ability (not desire, but ability) not to sin?

33 posted on 01/17/2014 11:40:29 AM PST by FatherofFive (Islam is evil and must be eradicated)
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To: FatherofFive
If this is true, they were created that way. Only an evil god would do this.

Take it up with Paul:

Romans 9:14-24

What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[f] 16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. 19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use? 22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?


let him be anathema...

I'll proudly be anathemetized along with Paul
34 posted on 01/17/2014 11:45:02 AM PST by armydoc
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To: FatherofFive

If I can hijack my own thread that was initially intended for humor: A more Catholic way of looking at predestination (which is Catholic) is this:

God created you incompletely sanctified that you may choose to become sanctified. He desires that all should be sanctified. But in giving Man free will, being that he is ominscient, he recognized that some men would choose not to be sanctified. Contrary to a cartoonish view of Calvinism, this does not mean that God desires that any man not be sanctified. When God calls someone, he knows that that person will follow, but that does not mean that the decision to follow is not consistent with that person’s created nature.

Now, a Calvinist will object to that definition, but not because the Catholic understanding behind it is untrue, but because Calvinists have a different understanding of free will, and would argue that no man has free will before he is saved.

Free will is the ability to act according to one’s own nature. Catholicism sees Man as having been created in God’s image, and having fallen. In his fallen nature, he has no free will. Therefore, Christ restores his free will by paying the debt of original sin. Calvinism asserts that Adam sinned because he was evil, which is true in the sense that Adam was ignorant and untrusting, but not in the sense that Adam was malevolent. Free will means, necessarily to the Calvinist, that Man will always return to sinfulness from which he came.

The true theological distinction I can detect between Calvinism and Catholicism is that Calvinism denies prevening grace; IOW, they don’t believe there is any grace until a man is converted, at which grace is complete. Catholics view attaining grace as a continual process. At some point along the journey, one will become Christian according to outward signs (”sacraments”), but that processed began from the first encounter with Christ’s church, and continues until they are rid of all sin (including concupiscence). Therefore Calvinists believe that “once saved, always saved,” since grace is irresistable, which Catholics believe that while someone may receive certain graces, but still may reject salvation.

It is for this reason that Catholics pay special attention to the Luke’s unique wording for Mary: “ketocharitoumene” meaning “(already having been) completely (full of ) grace”: At the point of sinlessness, one’s grace is complete. Protestant word studies frequently simplify this word to “charitou,” which fails to convey that this grace was present achieved before the conception of Christ (the “immaculate conception” refers to Mary’s own conception), and was complete.


35 posted on 01/17/2014 11:54:03 AM PST by dangus
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To: A Formerly Proud Canadian

Jesus was angry at the money changers in the temple. He is sinless.


36 posted on 01/17/2014 11:54:54 AM PST by Resolute Conservative
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To: ShadowAce
Ephesians 4:25-27 25 Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to your neighbor, for we are all members of one body. 26 “In your anger do not sin”: Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, 27 and do not give the devil a foothold.

'One body' sounds suspiciously like 'brothers and sisters'. "In your anger do not sin": in other words, you may be angry with the action/word/deed of your neighbour, NOT with the neighbour, else you are sinning.

Matthew 7:12 "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets." That might be harder to do if you are angry at the person rather than just angry at their actions! Look to the parable of the 'Good Samaritan' in Luke 10:29–37ble. A little background that adds depth to the parable: Samaritans and Jews hated each other and a Jew would normally have walked around Samaria so as not to interact with them. A 'modern' context might be a Jew travelling from Kerem Shalom through Gaza, being mugged while on the way to Jaffa (very likely), and being aided by a Palestian who would put him up and care for him (not at all likely).

37 posted on 01/17/2014 11:55:23 AM PST by A Formerly Proud Canadian (I once was blind, but now I see...)
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To: jonno

Is that you Bill Clinton?


38 posted on 01/17/2014 11:56:03 AM PST by Resolute Conservative
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To: armydoc

Key to the anathema is “that God produces the evil as well as the good works.”

Whether you hold that doctrine, I’m sure St. Paul does not. If God produced evil, he would be unjust, since evil is unjust.


39 posted on 01/17/2014 11:56:39 AM PST by dangus
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To: FatherofFive
Do 'All' have the ability (not desire, but ability) not to sin?

Not of their own, no. Any "good" deed by the unregenerate is due to God's common Grace. It is still done without faith and out of an unregenerate heart and therefore not pleasing to God.
40 posted on 01/17/2014 11:57:26 AM PST by armydoc
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To: jonno

I’ll certainly agree that God does not damn all those who ever were angry, but I will assert that one is not ready to stand before the throne of the Allmighty One until he has let go of anger.


41 posted on 01/17/2014 11:58:21 AM PST by dangus
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To: Resolute Conservative
There is no improper relationship.

(don't ask me about 'was')

42 posted on 01/17/2014 12:01:10 PM PST by jonno (Having an opinion is not the same as having the answer...)
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To: dangus
Key to the anathema is “that God produces the evil as well as the good works.”

We would agree that God is not the author of evil. Practically, that just means that He uses secondary means to manipulate the evil already present in the world for His holy purposes. He gave Satan permission to reign all sorts of evil on Job. He hardened Pharoh's heart to inflict all manner of evil on the Hebrews. Note that God didn't manufacture the evil in Satan or Pharoh; He merely unleashed it.
43 posted on 01/17/2014 12:06:55 PM PST by armydoc
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To: armydoc

As long as you agree that God does not produce the evil, I’d say you agree with that part of the anathema. And yes, the anathema specifically includes the same caveats you do: “not only by permission, but also properly and of himself.”

The anathema is against antinomialists who argue such things as that Judas was not at fault, himself. Or as the anathema directly states, if anyone states “the betrayal of Judas is no less his own proper work than the vocation of Paul, let him be anathema.”

It’s the second part of the anathema which aimed at Calvinists, but which provides perhaps enough room for some reconciliation with Calvinists. That part condemns those who say, “others, who are called, are called indeed, but do not receive grace, as if they are by divine power predestined to evil, let him be anathema.”

Notice that key to this anathematization is the belief that God’s own power predestined them to evil. Although God knew them to be evil, he did not desire them to be evil, and they are not evil by his work. And that is where the Catholic v Calvinist distinction of free will is so important.


44 posted on 01/17/2014 12:21:41 PM PST by dangus
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To: FatherofFive

Then why are some going to Hell?

Did God:
-Create them knowing they would reject Jesus?
-Rescue some and not others?
-Really not know and is surprised by what happens?


45 posted on 01/17/2014 12:26:55 PM PST by Gamecock (Celebrating 20,000 posts of dubious quality.)
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To: armydoc
and he hardens whom he wants to harden

I don't disagree with Paul.

They may be hardened, but that is not a permanent situation. The Prodigal son, as an example. But where does Paul says God creates beings to be dammed to hell with no chance of softening their hardened hearts, and no ability to accept the Grace of God freely given? A hardened heart can change.

So a simple yes/no question - Does God create people who are predestined to hell?

46 posted on 01/17/2014 12:28:44 PM PST by FatherofFive (Islam is evil and must be eradicated)
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To: FatherofFive
Was Judas predestined to hell? If yes, why not others?

John 17:12

"While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled."

47 posted on 01/17/2014 12:44:23 PM PST by kosciusko51 (Enough of "Who is John Galt?" Who is Patrick Henry?)
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To: FatherofFive

Besides, the better question is why does God choose to save some of those who have rebelled against Him, instead of sending all to hell? “For all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God ...”


48 posted on 01/17/2014 12:47:36 PM PST by kosciusko51 (Enough of "Who is John Galt?" Who is Patrick Henry?)
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To: kosciusko51
Was Judas predestined to hell?

I don't believe so. Judas couldn't accept the grace given freely by God.

While God predestines some people, he simply passes over the others. They will not come to God, but it is because of their inherent sin, not because God damns them.

49 posted on 01/17/2014 1:03:57 PM PST by FatherofFive (Islam is evil and must be eradicated)
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To: dangus
If I can hijack my own thread that was initially intended for humor

That was a very funny post.

50 posted on 01/17/2014 1:05:08 PM PST by FatherofFive (Islam is evil and must be eradicated)
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