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Scientists Claim That Quantum Theory Proves Consciousness Moves To Another Universe At Death
Spirit, Science and Metaphysics ^

Posted on 01/17/2014 7:43:11 PM PST by DaveMSmith

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To: metmom; DaveMSmith; GodGunsGuts; Fichori; tpanther; Gordon Greene; Ethan Clive Osgoode; ...
"Biocentrism teaches that life and consciousness are fundamental to the universe. It is consciousness that creates the material universe, not the other way around.

"Lanza points to the structure of the universe itself, and that the laws, forces, and constants of the universe appear to be fine-tuned for life, implying intelligence existed prior to matter.

Whoa! Quite a rich admission there for the "3rd most important thinker" on this subject, isn't it? Materialist evolutionists claim that it's matter first, consciousness later. Materialists create themselves with matter and this guy creates himself with his own consciousness, I guess.

Still, here's where he goes off the rails and effectively strays into Hinduism:

"This means that a dead person while traveling through the same tunnel ends up not in hell or in heaven, but in a similar world he or she once inhabited, but this time alive. And so on, infinitely.

So basically what he's saying is this:

"I have been around from the beginning (whenever that was), because my consciousness (whatever that is) has been there from the beginning, ergo, I am my own creator. I am my own god. And I am as eternal as anything else is. Boom! I'm outta one body and into another!

"So I in my own conceit simply declare that there is no heaven or hell, because I, the Conscious Essence, will it so! I don't have to answer to a higher authority other than myself. I am my creator. I am my authority."

Yet if that is true and he had to contend with the Laws of Nature to engage in all the evolutionary trial and error that supposedly got him here today, who or what was the Law Giver that established those physical constraints inherent within Natural Law and with which he had to contend in order to allegedly create himself?

Who or what designed or deemed into existence this "fine-tuned" universe into which he believes he can serially re-insert his cognitive essence?

But is one who creates himself within these constraints greater than the Laws and by extension the Law Giver that constrains him?

And at the supposed pinnacle of his received wisdom and cognitive awareness he still can't tell one person how or why he willed the physical world into existence so that his consciousness might create himself.

No one disputes that when we leave our present bodies behind we will all be "conscious" of our then present surroundings. I suspect that on that day this guy will be conscious of the fact that his environment has ticked upwards a quite few degrees in a rather uncomfortable direction.

FReegards!

 photo million-vet-march.jpg

101 posted on 01/18/2014 4:17:53 PM PST by Agamemnon (Darwinism is the glue that holds liberalism together)
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To: Hot Tabasco

That’s easy! There are many mansions ( levels, or realms of consciousness). Reincarnating souls can go to any of them. At least that’s how it was explained to me in my eastern days.

And yes, there are souls waiting for bodies - it is a conscious choice ( some say a fight for, even) the opportunity to reincarnate into a human body. There are no victims in reincarnation - it’s all your choice- God being the absolute gentleman that he is would never put a soul in a body without it’s consent.

When the kids used to complain that they didn’t ask to be born, I used to say - yes, you did, and right here, too. End of victim story.


102 posted on 01/18/2014 5:56:23 PM PST by Red Boots
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To: DaveMSmith

bkmk


103 posted on 01/18/2014 6:10:04 PM PST by AllAmericanGirl44
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To: DaveMSmith

Robert Lanza on theory of Biocentrism
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zI_F4nOKDSM

Too bad people always gets bog down in nitpicking instead of allowing their knowledge to listen see where their understanding might fit.

If the Bible is always their benchmark then we are to branch out and see what we can.


104 posted on 01/18/2014 8:16:17 PM PST by restornu
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To: E. Pluribus Unum

Atheistic materialism cannot justify knowledge
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXgLGa7anJI


105 posted on 01/18/2014 8:41:06 PM PST by restornu
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To: usconservative

Years ago I had a multiple heart operation, in that several parts of my body were being operated on. This was a second time hospital visit for me for life threatening situations, the first being a victim of the illness that was the cause of death for the Muppets originator Jim Hendrix(?). In both cases I had ‘out of body’ visions or whatever such is called. In both situations there was a guiding visionary spirit. I was allowed to view the very bright space that separated me from the distance but I had to make a choice/decision to go beyond the light. In both cases the “spirit’ did not waste time to come to the conclusion I was not ready by personal inclination or by other purpose to go into through the the light. Obviously I recovered from both situations but the second one sticks in my mind like it is still part of me. I have long believed that the body of this time and day is only transitory to another existence because once our atoms are put together an eternal system is created. What and who acts on this system is a personal enigma. I believe a God creator does exist that/which/who has an eternal say.


106 posted on 01/18/2014 9:18:21 PM PST by noinfringers2 ( /*)
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To: Candor7

Sorry, but you weren’t being serious in recommending these 3 guys, were you? The one I suggested people listen to or read up on is an expert in quantum mechanics. He ties it with human consciousness and how the mind operates. These guys seem more like monks or Himalayan gurus.


107 posted on 01/18/2014 10:29:37 PM PST by ETL (ALL (most?) of the Obama-commie connections at my FR Home page: http://www.freerepublic.com/~etl/)
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To: metmom

.....”It’s all in the name and who’s promoting it. But it gets down to the fact that there’s nothing new under the sun and the Bible had a leg up on it long before scientists even thought of the stuff”.....

Yes indeed!...Reminds me of the verse ...”He sits on the circle of the world”.... Denoting ‘it’s round’,..... while the people of Columbus’s day viewed the world as flat. It was in there the whole time!


108 posted on 01/19/2014 1:04:03 PM PST by caww
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To: metmom; DaveMSmith; GodGunsGuts; Fichori; tpanther; Gordon Greene; Ethan Clive Osgoode; ...
Declare the Universe was created by God – Liberals sneer.

Speculate that life was created by the Intelligence of Aliens from another galaxy – Liberals nod sagely.

Thanks for your beeps.

109 posted on 01/19/2014 1:10:23 PM PST by YHAOS
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To: restornu
If the Bible is always their benchmark then we are to branch out and see what we can.

You MORMONs got a LOT more 'benchmark' than Bible.

Why so QUITE about the beloved Book of ABRAHAM?

110 posted on 01/19/2014 1:56:34 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Red Boots
And yes, there are souls waiting for bodies - it is a conscious choice ( some say a fight for, even) the opportunity to reincarnate into a human body.

Not souls!!

--MormonDude(Spirit Babies!)

111 posted on 01/19/2014 1:57:32 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Red Boots; restornu; Normandy; teppe; trebb; StormPrepper; Grig
There are many mansions ( levels, or realms of consciousness).

MormonISM has 3 levels of Heaven and not really any Hell.


Most MORMONs will end up on Level Two.


That is if Brigham Young is a False Prophet:

"Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned;

and I will go still further and say, take this revelation, or any other revelation that the Lord has given,

and deny it in your feelings, and I promise that you will be damned.

Brigham Young - JoD 3:266 (July 14, 1855)

Otherwise; they'll end up someplace they didn't think it was POSSIBLE to go!

112 posted on 01/19/2014 2:01:13 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: restornu
Too bad people always gets bog down in nitpicking instead of allowing their knowledge to listen see where their understanding might fit.

But...

...I thought that it was a FEELING that convinced you that MormonISM was true?


Enough evidence from LDS, Inc.'s archives has been presented over the years that a person that DID use 'knowledge' would have left JS and the band behind LONG ago.

What's your excuse?

113 posted on 01/19/2014 2:04:07 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: ETL; tacticalogic; djf; MHGinTN; hosepipe; YHAOS; Alamo-Girl; TXnMA; metmom; marron; BroJoeK
The barbaric view of reality is mechanistic. It is the easy view of classical science and of common sense. In epistemology mechanism is naive realism, the view that all knowledge is based on unquestionable facts, on apodictically verified truths. In physics mechanism is the view that the universe is clockwork, closed, and entirely predictable on the basis of unchanging laws. In biology, mechanism is the view that all aspects of life, its evolution, our feelings and values, are ultimately explicable in terms of the laws of physics and chemistry. In our legal system, mechanism is the view that the assumption of precise procedural technicalities constitutes perfect justice. In our political system, mechanism is the view that the assertion of finely formulated personal rights constitutes the ideal democracy. In our public administration, it is the view that responsible service manifests itself by the enforcement of finely split bureaucratic regulations. All of these attitudes are the attitudes of barbarians.

Thus the forms that "second realities" generally take nowadays; and the "scientific premises" on which they (fruitlessly!) would like to found their "logic."

One thing this article well underscores is the idea that, if you get your initial premises "wrong," all your following arguments and conclusions will be "wrong," too.

I don't think the author's association of this sort of thing with barbarism is in any way "off the mark.",,,

Thank you so very much for posting this brilliant article, ETL!

114 posted on 01/19/2014 4:19:18 PM PST by betty boop (Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God. —Thomas Jefferson)
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To: YHAOS; tacticalogic; djf; Alamo-Girl; TXnMA; MHGinTN; hosepipe; metmom; spirited irish; marron
Declare the Universe was created by God — Liberals sneer. ... Speculate that life was created by the Intelligence of Aliens from another galaxy — Liberals nod sagely.

Not to worry, dear friend! "Liberals" are not the measure of All that there Is, let alone of God Himself.

They just like to"fantasize" that sort of thing....

...And will hit a "dead end" with their irrational speculations everytime, sooner or later....

115 posted on 01/19/2014 4:26:16 PM PST by betty boop (Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God. —Thomas Jefferson)
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To: Homer1
our bodies and life timeline are really the intersection of our mufti-dimensional selves...

mufti-dimensional selves? Good Lord, don't tell me there's a fatwa involved somewhere...

116 posted on 01/19/2014 4:31:13 PM PST by COBOL2Java (I'm a Christian, pro-life, pro-gun, Reaganite. The GOP hates me. Why should I vote for them?)
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To: betty boop
"Not to worry, dear friend! "

I am not (as, of course, you know) LOL!

117 posted on 01/19/2014 5:07:18 PM PST by YHAOS
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To: YHAOS; Whosoever

Declare the Universe was created by God – Liberals sneer. Speculate that life was created by the Intelligence of Aliens from another galaxy – Liberals nod sagely.


Brilliant implications here... not that God is not an alien “itself” from another Galaxy!.. (or some where else)...
The incarnation of life on this planet -OR- the UN-incarnation(so-called death) is at stake..

To think incarnation is all there is... is “the point”..
Some do, others do NOT..

What an image it is from cocoon to butterfly..
Speculation can be fun and profitable..
***


118 posted on 01/19/2014 5:41:10 PM PST by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole..)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum
From the article: Lanza points to the structure of the universe itself, and that the laws, forces, and constants of the universe appear to be fine-tuned for life, implying intelligence existed prior to matter.
119 posted on 01/19/2014 5:57:10 PM PST by EBH ( The Day of the Patriot has arrived.)
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To: cripplecreek

I agree with you. One of the first things they try to teach you in college level sciences is that all things tend towards chaos. But one look around one realizes that it is a false premise...for every thing tends towards chaos...then explain secular evolution?


120 posted on 01/19/2014 5:59:56 PM PST by EBH ( The Day of the Patriot has arrived.)
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To: EBH
Science doesn't even touch on consciousness, much less explain it.

Anybody who thinks science is all they need to know is not nearly as smart as they think they are.

121 posted on 01/19/2014 6:05:42 PM PST by E. Pluribus Unum (Who knew that one day professional wrestling would be less fake than professional journalism?)
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To: noinfringers2

Thank you deeply for that testimony.


122 posted on 01/19/2014 8:08:15 PM PST by Varsity Flight (Extortion-Care is the Government Work-Camp: Arbeitsziehungslager)
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To: Elsie

Profile of a sick being

...anyone who spends their time stalking another person everyday hours on end because they disagree who wantonly bullies and post endless hate and meanness, something is seriously wrong with them it just isn’t normal.

Something greatly is missing in their life or a great lost somewhere...

I pray the Lord fine a way to comfort this stalker.


123 posted on 01/19/2014 9:06:14 PM PST by restornu
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To: restornu

You are constantly posting Mormonism drek as if it is Christian material, then whine about someone posting opposition to the fantasies. Now you whine that to oppose your drek is stalking you, in your mind. Do you still not see what Mormonism is doing to your soul/the mind of your soul?


124 posted on 01/19/2014 9:21:30 PM PST by MHGinTN (Being deceived can be cured.)
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To: MHGinTN

My goodness are you following me?

If there is anything Mormon on this thread it was not posted by me...


125 posted on 01/19/2014 9:43:00 PM PST by restornu
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To: ETL; TigersEye

These guys seem more like monks or Himalayan gurus>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

For over a thousand years they have been doing what these theoretical physicists have “discovered.”

Google: “transference of consciousness, Tibet”

Here is one of the many articles you would see on the topic:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/tib/phowa.htm

What the scientists have discovered is not a discovery. It is a “rediscovery.” This so called discovery has been practiced for a very long time. And it works.


126 posted on 01/20/2014 2:58:17 AM PST by Candor7 (Obama fascism article:(http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/05/barack_obama_the_quintessentia_1.html))
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To: restornu
...anyone who spends their time stalking another person everyday hours on end because they disagree who wantonly bullies and post endless hate and meanness, something is seriously wrong with them it just isn’t normal.

We're SO sorry you feel this way.


Perhaps reflecting upon your FUTURE in Mormonism can help...

127 posted on 01/20/2014 3:06:33 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: restornu
If there is anything Mormon on this thread it was not posted by me...

HMMMmmm...

Sure SOUNDS 'mormon' to me!


#100 It is so hard for some to think beyond their sphere or allow the Lord to lift them to greater understanding of his universe.

128 posted on 01/20/2014 3:09:04 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: restornu; MHGinTN
Mormons read this verse in the Beatitudes and apply in to themselves:

Matthew 5:11
"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.

They feel all persecuted and 'christiany' just reading it.

The first seventeen words anyway.



Somehow; when they get to the third "you", their mind must disengage from the ending of it "...because of me."


Mormons; I'll agree that you get insulted, persecuted, all kinds of evil said against you.

But...

it isn't BECAUSE OF JESUS!


It's 'because' you have chosen to follow a charlatan; espousing a demonic 'religion'; that is blatently ANTI-Christian at it's very core.


Trying to blame JESUS and HIS teachings for it is; well; not correct.

129 posted on 01/20/2014 3:19:09 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: restornu
My goodness are you following me?

Ain't the SEARCH function WONDERFUL!!!

(And that In_Forum one works great; too!)

130 posted on 01/20/2014 3:23:16 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: restornu
My goodness are you following me?

You have posted in this thread; THESE guys haven't ---> Normandy; teppe; trebb; StormPrepper; Grig.


THEY would be the ones with a complaint; if they were truly bothered by being invited to express THEIR views on this subject; if it somehow unduly infringes on their rights in some manner.

131 posted on 01/20/2014 3:57:35 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: DaveMSmith
Scientists Claim That Quantum Theory Proves Consciousness Moves To Another Universe At Death


2 Timothy 4:3-4
3. For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
4. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

132 posted on 01/20/2014 4:02:31 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: DaveMSmith

Happy MLK Day!!!



“Swedenborg enables us to understand why we were created, why we are alive, and what happens to us after our bodies die.
Swedenborg enables us to have the best possible understanding of God’s message as it exists in those Bible books which constitutes God’s Word.”
- Rev Dr Martin Luther King

133 posted on 01/20/2014 4:04:16 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

https://www.google.com/search?q=%0D%0A%E2%80%9CSwedenborg+enables+us+to+understand+why+we+were+created%2C+why+we+are+alive%2C+and+what+happens+to+us+after+our+bodies+die.&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-US:IE-ContextMenu&ie=&oe=&rlz=1I7ADRA_enUS475


134 posted on 01/20/2014 4:08:27 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: boatbums
I'd be curious to see how these scientists could ever go about proving such a theory.

A proof would mean it is no longer science. They would have to call it "abstract mathematical consciousness" or "religion".

135 posted on 01/20/2014 4:14:44 AM PST by palmer (Obama = Carter + affirmative action)
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To: DeFault User; E. Pluribus Unum
Nothing exists without a conscious observer

That would mean nothing exists.

136 posted on 01/20/2014 4:19:54 AM PST by palmer (Obama = Carter + affirmative action)
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To: Elsie

AHhhh...

Another polar vortex coming!

Time to get dry wood in for the fireplace, cocoa stocked up in the pantry, and favorite old videos ready for enjoyment again, as the winds howl outside our door.

It could also be a good time to review wonderful old FR threads; too!

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2657760/posts?page=11


137 posted on 01/20/2014 4:25:20 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Candor7

Please, take a listen to the the guy I recommended. Unless you totally reject science, even that of which attempts to make a connection between the real world and the spiritual as he does so amazingly.

Try this one as a starter:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzafB6NKHis


138 posted on 01/20/2014 4:54:02 AM PST by ETL (ALL (most?) of the Obama-commie connections at my FR Home page: http://www.freerepublic.com/~etl/)
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To: DaveMSmith
I read through the comments but saw nothing but pure mysticism and mysticism wrapped around a bit of poorly understood science. But the most concrete research shows that consciousness is an illusion, simply a trick we play on ourselves. Tests show that "free will" actions occur after the subject believes that they have performed the action. There may be a role for quantum mechanics but probably only to generate some random inputs to what we believe to be spontaneous free will thoughts and actions.

Also on the quantum theory idea, there is measureable instantaneous interaction with quantum particles in distant locations. It opens the possibility of "another universe" interacting with our consciousness before death. Not sure about the effect if any in the other direction and it doesn't appear likely after death.

139 posted on 01/20/2014 4:57:35 AM PST by palmer (Obama = Carter + affirmative action)
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To: Candor7

Other, perhaps better, examples here:

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=%22lothar%20schafer%22&sm=12


140 posted on 01/20/2014 5:02:38 AM PST by ETL (ALL (most?) of the Obama-commie connections at my FR Home page: http://www.freerepublic.com/~etl/)
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To: palmer
I read through the comments but saw nothing but pure mysticism and mysticism wrapped around a bit of poorly understood science.

You aren't including the ideas of Lothar Schafer in that generalization, are you? Schafer is an expert in quantum mechanics. A former professor of physical chemistry.

Image and video hosting by TinyPic

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=%22lothar%20schafer%22&sm=12

141 posted on 01/20/2014 5:25:02 AM PST by ETL (ALL (most?) of the Obama-commie connections at my FR Home page: http://www.freerepublic.com/~etl/)
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To: palmer

Schafer, Lothar


Lothar Schafer

Lothar Schafer
Distinguished Professor Emeritus

CHEM 218
Phone: 479-575-5079
FAX: 479-575-4049
schafer@uark.edu

Degrees:

Ph.D., University of Munich, 1965
NATO Fellow, University of Oslo, 1965-67
Camille and Henry Dreyfus Foundation Grant, 1971-76
U of A Alumni Award for Teaching and Research, 1977
IR-100 Award, 1985
Halliburton Teaching Award, 1991-92
Fulbright College Master Teacher Award, 1999

Research Interests:

Lothar Schäfer and his coworkers are interested in applying Computational Chemistry to the structural and dynamical properties of proteins. Recently we developed an algorithm that allows predicting backbone bond lengths and angles in proteins from first principles (i.e. ab initio calculations of peptides) with accuracy similar to that afforded by high resolution protein crystallography. In cooperation with Prof. Kris van Alsenoy of the University of Antwerp in Belgium, an investigation is under way to study the normal modes of vibration of proteins as a basis of modeling protein folding mechanisms.

In a second project the general quantum nature of molecules is explored as a basis to support the pre-Darwinian view of evolution by natural law. Pre-Darwinian biologists believed that life forms are necessary and not contingent, and they wanted to explain the diversity of life forms by natural law, not by natural selection. As described in a series of recent papers (Lothar Schäfer, Zygon, 41(3), (2006) 505-532; ibid. 573-582; ibid. ; ibid. 593-598.) these views have found new support in the quantum nature of molecules. 

http://chemistry.uark.edu/4861.php

142 posted on 01/20/2014 5:31:23 AM PST by ETL (ALL (most?) of the Obama-commie connections at my FR Home page: http://www.freerepublic.com/~etl/)
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To: palmer
Also on the quantum theory idea, there is measurable instantaneous interaction with quantum particles in distant locations. It opens the possibility of "another universe" interacting with our consciousness before death.

To expand on that still very mysterious physical phenomenon...

Question: What is Quantum Entanglement?

Answer: Quantum entanglement is one of the central principles of quantum physics, though it is also highly misunderstood. In short, quantum entanglement means that multiple particles are linked together in a way such that the measurement of one particle's quantum state determines the possible quantum states of the other particles.

The Classic Quantum Entanglement Example

The classic example of quantum entanglement is called the EPR paradox. In a simplified version of this case, consider a particle with quantum spin 0 that decays into two new particles, Particle A and Particle B. Particle A and Particle B head off in opposite directions. However, the original particle had a quantum spin of 0. Each of the new particles has a quantum spin of 1/2, but because they have to add up to 0, one is +1/2 and one is -1/2.

This relationship means that the two particles are entangled. When you measure the spin of Particle A, that measurement has an impact on the possible results you could get when measuring the spin of Particle B. And this isn't just an interesting theoretical prediction, but has been verified experimentally through tests of Bell's Theorem.

One important thing to remember is that in quantum physics, the original uncertainty about the particle's quantum state isn't just a lack of knowledge. A fundamental property of quantum theory is that prior to the act of measurement, the particle really doesn't have a definite state, but is in a superposition of all possible states. This is best modeled by the classic quantum physics thought experiment, Schroedinger's Cat, where a quantum mechanics approach results in an unobserved cat that is both alive and dead simultaneously.

The Wavefunction of the Universe

One way of interpreting things is to consider the entire universe as one single wavefunction. In this representation, this "wavefunction of the universe" would contain a term that defines the quantum state of each and every particle. It is this approach that leaves open the door for claims that "everything is connected," which often gets manipulated (either intentionally or through honest confusion) to end up with things like the physics errors in The Secret.

Though this interpretation does mean that the quantum state of every particle in the universe affects the wavefunction of every other particle, it does so in a way that is only mathematical. There is really no sort of experiment which could ever - even in principle - discover the effect in one place showing up in another location.

Interpreting Quantum Entanglement
  • Many Worlds Interpretation
  • Physics Errors in the Secret
  • What is Schroedinger's Cat?

    http://physics.about.com/od/quantumphysics/f/QuantumEntanglement.htm

    ____________________________________________

    The EPR Paradox

    The EPR Paradox (or the Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen Paradox) is a thought experiment intended to demonstrate an inherent paradox in the early formulations of quantum theory. It is among the best-known examples of quantum entanglement. The paradox involves two particles which are entangled with each other according to quantum mechanics. Under the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics, each particle is individually in an uncertain state until it is measured, at which point the state of that particle becomes certain. At that exact same moment, the other particle's state also becomes certain.

    The reason that this is classified as a paradox is that it seemingly involves communication between the two particles at speeds greater than the speed of light, which is a conflict with Einstein's theory of relativity.

    The Paradox's Origin

    The paradox was the focal point of a heated debate between Albert Einstein and Niels Bohr. Einstein was never comfortable with the quantum mechanics being developed by Bohr and his colleagues (based, ironically, on work started by Einstein). Together with his colleagues Boris Podolsky and Nathan Rosen, he developed the EPR Paradox as a way of showing that the theory was inconsistent with other known laws of physics. (Boris Podolsky was portrayed by actor Gene Saks as one of Einstein's three comedic sidekicks in the romantic comedy I.Q..) At the time, there was no real way to carry out the experiment, so it was just a thought experiment, or gedankenexperiment.

    Several years later, the physicist David Bohm modified the EPR paradox example so that things were a bit clearer. (The original way the paradox was presented was kind of confusing, even to professional physicists.) In the more popular Bohm formulation, an unstable spin 0 particle decays into two different particles, Particle A and Particle B, heading in opposite directions. Because the initial particle had spin 0, the sum of the two new particle spins must equal zero. If Particle A has spin +1/2, then Particle B must have spin -1/2 (and vice versa). Again, according to the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics, until a measurement is made, neither particle has a definite state. They are both in a superposition of possible states, with an equal probability (in this case) of having positive or negative spin.

    The Paradox's Meaning

    There are two key points at work here which make this troubling.

    1. Quantum physics tells us that, until the moment of the measurement, the particles do not have a definite quantum spin, but are in a superposition of possible states.
    2. As soon as we measure the spin of Particle A, we know for sure the value we'll get from measuring the spin of Particle B.

    If you measure Particle A, it seems like Particle A's quantum spin gets "set" by the measurement ... but somehow Particle B also instantly "knows" what spin it is supposed to take on. To Einstein, this was a clear violation of the theory of relativity.

    No one ever really questioned point 2; the controversy lay entirely with point 1. David Bohm and Albert Einstein supported an alternative approach called "hidden variables theory," which suggested that quantum mechanics was incomplete. In this viewpoint, there had to be some aspect of quantum mechanics that wasn't immediately obvious, but which needed to be added into the theory to explain this sort of non-local effect.

    As an analogy, consider that you have two envelopes that contain money. You have been told that one of them contains a $5 bill and the other contains a $10 bill. If you open one envelope and it contains a $5 bill, then you know for sure that the other envelope contains the $10 bill.

    The problem with this analogy is that quantum mechanics definitely doesn't appear to work this way. In the case of the money, each envelope contains a specific bill, even if I never get around to looking in them.

    The uncertainty in quantum mechanics doesn't just represent a lack of our knowledge, but a fundamental lack of definite reality. Until the measurement is made, according to the Copenhagen interpretation, the particles are really in a superposition of all possible states (as in the case of the dead/alive cat in the Schroedinger's Cat thought experiment). While most physicists would have preferred to have a universe with clearer rules, no one could figure out exactly what these "hidden variables" were or how they could be incorporated into the theory in a meaningful way.

    Niels Bohr and others defended the standard Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics, which continued to be supported by the experimental evidence. The explanation is that the wavefunction which describes the superposition of possible quantum states exists at all points simultaneously. The spin of Particle A and spin of Particle B are not independent quantities, but are represented by the same term within the quantum physics equations. The instant the measurement on Particle A is made, the entire wavefunction collapses into a single state. In this way, there's no distant communication taking place.

    The major nail in the coffin of the hidden variables theory came from the physicist John Stewart Bell, in what is known as Bell's Theorem. He developed a series of inequalities (called Bell inequalities) which represent how measurements of the spin of Particle A and Particle B would distribute if they weren't entangled. In experiment after experiment, the Bell inequalities are violated, meaning that quantum entanglement does seem to take place.

    Despite this evidence to the contrary, there are still some proponents of hidden variables theory, though this is mostly among amateur physicists rather than professionals.

    http://physics.about.com/od/physicsetoh/g/EPRparadox.htm


143 posted on 01/20/2014 5:38:59 AM PST by ETL (ALL (most?) of the Obama-commie connections at my FR Home page: http://www.freerepublic.com/~etl/)
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To: palmer

>>Also on the quantum theory idea, there is measurable instantaneous
>>interaction with quantum particles in distant locations.
>>It opens the possibility of “another universe” interacting with our consciousness before death.

Lothar Schafer:
“Mind-stuff, in a part of reality behind the mechanistic foreground of the world of space-time energy sensibility, as Sherrington called it, is not restricted to Einstein locality. The existence of non-local physical effects - faster than light phenomena - has now been well established by quantum coherence-type experiments like those related to Bell’s Theorem. If the universe is non-local, something that happens at this moment in its depths may have an instantaneous effect a long distance away, for example right here and right now. By every molecule in our body we are tuned to the mind-stuff of the universe.

In this way the quantum phenomena have forced the opening of a universe that Newton’s mechanism once blinded and closed. Unintended by its creator, Newton’s mechanics defined a machine, without any life or room for human values, the Parmenidian One, forever unchanging and predictable, “eternal matter ruled by eternal laws”, as Sheldrake wrote. In contrast, the quantum phenomena have revealed that the world of mechanism is just the cortex of a deeper and wider, transcendent, reality. The future of the universe is open, because it is unpredictable. Its present is open, because it is subject to non-local influences that are beyond our control. Cracks have formed in the solidity of the material world from which emanations of a different type of reality seep in. In the diffraction experiments of material particles, a window has opened to the world of Platonic ideas.

That the universe should be mind-like and not communicate with the human mind - the one organ to which it is akin - is not very likely. In fact, one of the most fascinating faculties of the human mind is its ability to be inspired by unknown sources - as though it were sensitive to signals of a mysterious origin. ...”


144 posted on 01/20/2014 6:11:57 AM PST by ETL (ALL (most?) of the Obama-commie connections at my FR Home page: http://www.freerepublic.com/~etl/)
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To: palmer; E. Pluribus Unum
That would mean nothing exists.

Yes, unless you stipulate God, the Logos, the WORD (thought becoming matter) is the Ultimate Consciousness. That was George Berkeley's resolution.

145 posted on 01/20/2014 6:39:14 AM PST by DeFault User
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To: betty boop; YHAOS; tacticalogic; djf; Alamo-Girl; TXnMA; MHGinTN; hosepipe; metmom; marron
"The barbaric view of reality is mechanistic. It is the easy view of classical science and of common sense. In epistemology mechanism is naive realism, the view that all knowledge is based on unquestionable facts, on apodictically verified truths. In physics mechanism is the view that the universe is clockwork, closed, and entirely predictable on the basis of unchanging laws. In biology, mechanism is the view that all aspects of life, its evolution, our feelings and values, are ultimately explicable in terms of the laws of physics and chemistry."

Spirited: Monism is like a coin. On one side is ancient Greek Atomism--the idea that life and mind mechanically emerged out of physical matter.

The Greek Atomist Epicurus (341–270BC), the father of contemporary 'scientific' materialism and many of its’ modern assumptions (the barbaric view), taught that there was no need of a God or gods, for the Universe came about by a chance movement of atoms. (Evolution: An Ancient Pagan Idea, Paul James Griffith, creation.com)

Greek and Roman philosophers received their ideas from ancient Sumerians (Babylonians), Egyptians and Hindus, whose nature philosophies extended back centuries before Greek and Roman civilization.

For example, one Hindu belief was that Brahman (the Void or Universe) spontaneously generated itself (the modern theories of Big Bang and abiogenesis) as something like a seed or singularity about 4.3 billion years ago and then evolved under its’ own power by which it expanded and formed all that exists:

“These Hindus believed in an eternal Universe that had cycles of rebirth, destruction and dormancy, known as ‘kalpas’, rather like oscilla­ting big bang theories. We also read in the Hindu Bhagavad Gita that the god Krishna says, ‘I am the source from which all creatures evolve.” (ibid, Griffith)

In India the doctrine of evolution/reincarnation/karma was thoroughly established from ancient times. It was expounded first in the Upanishads (c. 1000 BC - AD 4), the philosophical-mystic texts held to be the essence of the Vedas.

Atomism--the barbaric view---is now being supplanted by its' flip side, Advaita (monism)---the idea that life, mind, and souls,

"... are determined by quantum waves, - probability amplitudes which carry numerical relations, but are devoid of mass and energy. As a consequence of the wave-like aspects of reality, atoms do not have any shape - a solid outline in space - but the things do, which they form; and the constituents of matter, the elementary particles, are not in the same sense real as the real things that they constitute."

The Babylonian (Sumerian) Enuma Elish is the most ancient evolutionary cosmogony bespeaking a universe of watery chaos, or primordial matter. It is the post-flood seedbed for all Mystery Religions, Hermetic magic, all nature systems, pantheism, evolutionary thinking, Eastern Advaita (monism), reincarnation, occultism, spiritualism, the esoteric Kabbalah's Doctrine of Emanation and today's so-called "science"---New Physics.

According to the doctrine of emanation, the entire universe, all spirit, life, and even all of the gods, human beings, and everything else, came about by a process of emanation (or unfolding, emergence or evolution) from Ein Soph--the divine one substance or Void.

Just as waves form across the surface of the ocean, so the Void forms upon itself successive waves (emanations) of entities that in turn emanate further entities and so on, with all of these entities interacting within an extraordinary network or great chain of being consisting of downward-descending self-contained planes of existence, a top-down hierarchy of astral plane realities arranged vertically.

Each higher plane of existence emanates the one below it through a process of emanation, thus each plane stands in the position of god to the one below. Therefore creation is not creation ex nihilo, as the Genesis account teaches, but emanation out of the Void.

Each plane of existence has its own specific characteristics, thus there can be a plane where spirit or thought forms exist; where the Gnostic demiurge, the evil Jehovah, god of material creation exists; the realm of the deities, demons, heavens, hells, angels, and so on, realm upon realm, all looking downwards to the physical realm and also looking upwards to the Void or quantum vacuum.

The rebellion against the personal God of creation surfaced during the Renaissance, redoubled during the Enlightenment, exploded in rage and genocide during the 20th century, and is coming to its fullness in time during our own age: Westerners have gone full circle from Atomism to Advaita monism.

The essence of Monism---whether of the Atomistic kind or the Eastern pantheist/Quantum Void kind, is nihilism, meaning there is Nothing There. There is No Ultimate Source for life, soul, meaning, purpose, truth, morality.

146 posted on 01/20/2014 7:38:48 AM PST by spirited irish
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To: spirited irish
"The barbaric view of reality is mechanistic. It is the easy view of classical science and of common sense. In epistemology mechanism is naive realism, the view that all knowledge is based on unquestionable facts, on apodictically verified truths. In physics mechanism is the view that the universe is clockwork, closed, and entirely predictable on the basis of unchanging laws. In biology, mechanism is the view that all aspects of life, its evolution, our feelings and values, are ultimately explicable in terms of the laws of physics and chemistry."

Okay, what do you have to replace it with?

147 posted on 01/20/2014 8:22:28 AM PST by tacticalogic
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To: ETL
That still sounds like a universe to conscious mind connection, not the other way around.

Here's Herbert. I remembered reading his book about 15 years ago but forgot his name.

HERBERT: A computer, or some receptacle similar enough to human minds, that a discarnate could inhabit. And since I believe that quantum mechanics is at the basis of our consciousness, that somehow the reason we are conscious is not because we are really good computers -- because actually we're not very good computers at all; our consciousness pretty much impedes in some senses our computational facilities. Consciousness is really a luxury, so for whatever reason, I believe that somehow quantum theory has to do with consciousness. So any quantum system would do, but then it needs to be coupled to a level we can understand. So the metaphase typewriter used a quantum system coupled through a computer to a language-generating device, and it typed out English, and the English came from nowhere. It came from absolute quantum randomness, generated by a radioactive source. We put the metaphase typewriter in very high-energy psychic realms and tried to invoke spirits to come into it and take over its keyboard.

Sounds like Herbert started dabbling in the occult.

http://www.intuition.org/txt/herbert.htm

148 posted on 01/20/2014 8:38:30 AM PST by palmer (Obama = Carter + affirmative action)
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To: hosepipe
To think incarnation is all there is... is “the point”..

Yes. My only point is that most everyone accepts the idea that some things are non-materialistic so long as those things are not “God related” (especially in the Judeo-Christian Tradition).

149 posted on 01/20/2014 8:42:52 AM PST by YHAOS
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To: tacticalogic
The cited paragraph is from "On the Foundations of Metaphysics in the Mind-like Background of Physical Reality" by Lothar Schäfer from ETL's post #7.

Essentially, you have 3 choices. Either one of two kinds of monism: the "barbaric" view (mechanistic Atomism) or the Eastern Advaita view of the New Phycisists, occult New Age, Theosophy, Vedanta Hinduism, Buddhism, etc. Or--- the supernatural personal God of creation.

The first two are types of naturalism positing life and mind from either chemicals or psychic energy. As neither kind can account for life and mind from chemicals or energy both are types of nihilism, meaning there is nothing there but delusion.

Only with the 3rd option is there an ultimate source for life and mind.

As you are endowed with will (which options 1 & 2 deny as there is no source for will), the choice is yours to make.

150 posted on 01/20/2014 9:20:46 AM PST by spirited irish
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