Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Can we as Christians know who will "endure until the end" as Jesus said? No.
1/21/2014 | Laissez-Faire Capitalist

Posted on 01/21/2014 12:12:51 PM PST by Laissez-faire capitalist

While Calvisnism looks good on paper --- in real time and in the here and now it comes up short:

A person can be heard accepting Christ as savior, can be seen bearing good fruit, living for the Lord for years, etc, and then later on they start acting in such a way that causes some to think that they were either "falsely saved" (and thus seemingly somehow duped those around them for some time) or at best they are "out of fellowship" with Christ, but nonetheless still saved.

A.) Two people can be bearing bad fruit, committing sin, etc, and one (to others around him) is said to be "falsely saved" according to Calvinism, and the other is said to be "fallen out of fellowship" with Christ according to Calvinism. And, ironically, they are committing similar sins --- and we don't know to what degree one is worse (than the other) in committing bad fruit, as we cannot see the totality of both of their lives 24/7, 365. Ergo: We can't tell them apart (the one who was falsely saved, and the other who is out of fellowship with Christ).

B.) So... we go by the book of Matthew and confront them as Jesus said. Both (at seperate times) refuse the exortation from one Christian to repent, then two Christians, and finally the church at large where they attend. Thus, the church treats them as an heathen... but fails to see that one is throwing a spiritual temper tantrum, is still saved (as God sees this in their heart,) and will within a year repents and is back in fellowship with Christ. But both were deemed to have been "falsely saved." Thus, the local church erred. You see... the one who is "out of fellowship" with Christ refused at that time to repent, just as the one who is falsely saved. Ergo: no way to tell them apart.

C.) John MacArthur says in his Study Bible that their departure is their unmasking. Problerm is, is that we don't know if they will or won't return. They may indeed return 5 years later, and thus the church had hastily said that they were "falsely saved" when they were actually "out of fellowship with Christ." Ergo: no way to tell the two (1.) falsely saved, 2.) out of fellowship with Christ) apart.

D.) Paul the Apostle apparently could tell that the Thessalonians were saved, as the scriptures declare such. But he was an Apsotle. None of those around anymore, right? And he was writing scripture, and thus the HOLY SPIRIT moving upon him was telling him that the Thessalonians were saved. The aformentioned in D.) held true for John, too. No scriptures is being written, and no Apostles anymore... Ergo: no way to tell...

E.) Saying that "those that endure to the end shall be saved" works in the eternal future when all things are made new, but it does not tell us who is "falsely saved" or who is "out of fellowship with Christ" right now in real time.

F.) We cannot see the totality of a person's fruit 24/7, 365, so "by their fruit shall ye know them" works in showing us the really hard core cases, andf showing us eventually, but it does not say if and when they will stop committing bad fruit and thus show that (for a time) they were "out of fellowship" with Christ, or if they were "falsely saved." It does tell us that something is wrong with their lives, though.

G.) Looking for "God's blessing" on their lives as evidence of who are the "Elect" is using anecdotal evidence and is dangerous to rely upon - even though Calvin said as much about looking for things to see just who might be the elect. All of this in G.) is dangerosuly close to WOF (Word of Faith) doctrine.

Ergo Sum: Good luck in differentiating between who is "falsely saved" and the one who is truly saved, but nonetheless "out of fellowship" with Christ. ;).

This thread is the end of the line in this sphere and arena...


TOPICS: Catholic; Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian; General Discusssion; Mainline Protestant; Ministry/Outreach; Orthodox Christian; Theology
KEYWORDS: calvinism; endtimes; friel; johnmacarthur; macarthur; toddfriel
Good luck...
1 posted on 01/21/2014 12:12:51 PM PST by Laissez-faire capitalist
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: Laissez-faire capitalist; All

Maybe Todd Friel can tell us?


2 posted on 01/21/2014 12:14:40 PM PST by Laissez-faire capitalist
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Laissez-faire capitalist

There is no way to know.

Calvinists never claimed to be able to make that determination.


3 posted on 01/21/2014 12:19:23 PM PST by Gamecock (Celebrating 20,000 posts of dubious quality.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Laissez-faire capitalist

Yes, we can.

The bible says that for Christians, “His Spirit testifies with our spirits that we are children of God.”

“Romans 8: 15 For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, “”Abba,” Father.” 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory. “


4 posted on 01/21/2014 12:20:48 PM PST by xzins ( Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Those who truly support our troops pray for victory!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Laissez-faire capitalist

Judge Me Not Ye Saints
For My History May Be Tainted
But I’m Sober Enough To Know Blood When I See It
I’ve Borne My Share Of Stones
Most Of Them Easily Thrown
But Who’s To Deny
Your Water-Shed Side
Leading Me Home?

CHORUS:
What Am I Supposed To Do About It Now?
Past Regrets And Long Laments, They Find Me Somehow
O, What Am I Supposed To Do About It Now?
What Have I To Do But Fall Down?

To Spy From Far Away
May Seem That I’m One To Betray
But O, How I Try
The Spirit To Guide
The Promise You Made

CHORUS

Hold Me Up
Never Let Me Go
Love Me When I Am Broken
And Speak To Me

CHORUS

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5zjOl3DpZA


5 posted on 01/21/2014 12:20:51 PM PST by Zeneta
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Laissez-faire capitalist

So, if Calvinists cannot know may we assume that you know?


6 posted on 01/21/2014 12:24:49 PM PST by Dutchboy88
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Gamecock; xzins; Laissez-faire capitalist

Look at the parable of the wheat and the tares. Until the harvest, it is nearly impossible to tell the two apart.


7 posted on 01/21/2014 12:25:10 PM PST by kosciusko51 (Enough of "Who is John Galt?" Who is Patrick Henry?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: kosciusko51; Gamecock; Laissez-faire capitalist

If we don’t individually know of our own salvation, then we’re to be pitied.


8 posted on 01/21/2014 12:28:20 PM PST by xzins ( Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Those who truly support our troops pray for victory!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: xzins

I’m not talking about our own salvation, I’m talking about the ability to know if others are saved. I think that was the questioned being asked.


9 posted on 01/21/2014 12:41:15 PM PST by kosciusko51 (Enough of "Who is John Galt?" Who is Patrick Henry?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: Laissez-faire capitalist

Why spend a nano second worrying about somebody’s satus. I don’t get it. A person is saved or not saved and God is not asking my opinion.


10 posted on 01/21/2014 12:45:53 PM PST by DariusBane (Liberty and Risk. Flip sides of the same coin. So how much risk will YOU accept?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Laissez-faire capitalist
Ergo Sum: Good luck in differentiating between who is "falsely saved" and the one who is truly saved, but nonetheless "out of fellowship" with Christ. ;).

Only God knows who is going to be saved. So what does your thread have to do with Calvinism? Nobody can ever know the fate of another Man's soul. Neither Calvinists nor.... whatever the heck you are.

11 posted on 01/21/2014 12:46:05 PM PST by P-Marlowe (There can be no Victory without a fight and no battle without wounds)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: kosciusko51

Well, are you saved?


12 posted on 01/21/2014 12:46:42 PM PST by xzins ( Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Those who truly support our troops pray for victory!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: xzins
Yes, but you don't know if I am telling the truth, or if I am deluding myself. You would have to follow up with additional questions that would give you indications of the state of my salvation, but you still could not be certain of my salvation.

FYI, True believers may have the assurance of their salvation divers ways shaken, diminished, and intermitted; as, by negligence in preserving of it, by falling into some special sin which wounds the conscience and grieves the Spirit; by some sudden or vehement temptation, by God's withdrawing the light of His countenance, and suffering even such as fear Him to walk in darkness and to have no light: yet are they never so utterly destitute of that seed of God, and life of faith, that love of Christ and the brethren, that sincerity of heart, and conscience of duty, out of which, by the operation of the Spirit, this assurance may, in due time, be revived; and by the which, in the mean time, they are supported from utter despair.

13 posted on 01/21/2014 12:57:01 PM PST by kosciusko51 (Enough of "Who is John Galt?" Who is Patrick Henry?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: xzins

I keep getting a robocall from some tele(phone)evangelist minister who tells me I will be saved if I push #1.


14 posted on 01/21/2014 12:58:48 PM PST by UCANSEE2 (I forgot what my tagline was supposed to say)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: kosciusko51

That doesn’t work for me. There are pastors to choose, deacons to choose, and all the other functions of the body to care for.

If you tell me you’re saved, if you give evidence of by word and by deed, then I can know that you are saved.

As you’ve said, YOU can know if you’re saved. It doesn’t hurt to tell someone.


15 posted on 01/21/2014 1:05:38 PM PST by xzins ( Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Those who truly support our troops pray for victory!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: xzins
If you tell me you’re saved, if you give evidence of by word and by deed, then I can know that you are saved.

You can know to a high probability, but not 100%. Again, look at the parable of the wheat and the tares, and the sower and the seed.

16 posted on 01/21/2014 1:12:34 PM PST by kosciusko51 (Enough of "Who is John Galt?" Who is Patrick Henry?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: kosciusko51

That’s not the proper interpretation.

They don’t take the tares out because they can’t tell weeds from the wheat.

They don’t take the tares out because if they pull them out of the ground they’re going to pull the wheat out too. And it’s not done growing yet.

That’s why they wait until the end. They can clearly see the wheat and the weeds and know which is which.


17 posted on 01/21/2014 1:15:13 PM PST by Secret Agent Man (Gone Galt; Not averse to Going Bronson.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: UCANSEE2

so......did you push 1?


18 posted on 01/21/2014 1:15:56 PM PST by Secret Agent Man (Gone Galt; Not averse to Going Bronson.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: Laissez-faire capitalist

I agree with Gamecock. I don’t subscribe to the form of Calvinism that makes those distinctions you mention. There’s either brothers and sisters we’re in fellowship with, or there’s heathen. Until and unless they repent, that’s how we’re to treat them.

Matthew 7 also plays into this:

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

These are people who deluded at least themselves. They prophesy in Christ’s name, cast out demons in Christ’s name, and do wonderful works in Christ’s name. But, as Christ says in verse 21, they left out the one essential fruit: Obedience. Or as the verse says, doing the will of Christ’s Father in heaven. And where may His will be found? Sola Scriptura.

That Matthew 7 passage should be terrifying to any “Christian” who is in the habit of calling God a liar. About anything.


19 posted on 01/21/2014 1:23:40 PM PST by afsnco
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: kosciusko51; Gamecock

I’ve seen wheat fields myself. They are mostly wheat.

If the field is 99% wheat what is my chance of pulling a weed if I randomly, blind pull up 5 plants?

Only 1 out of 20 times will I pull up a weed.

Using just one plant, only one out of a hundred.

I believe we’re way too focused on the negative and on distrust of our brothers and sisters in our church.


20 posted on 01/21/2014 1:35:44 PM PST by xzins ( Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Those who truly support our troops pray for victory!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: UCANSEE2

Punch 2 and maybe you’ll get saved twice. :>)


21 posted on 01/21/2014 1:36:32 PM PST by xzins ( Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Those who truly support our troops pray for victory!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: P-Marlowe

Ping to #20.


22 posted on 01/21/2014 1:37:53 PM PST by xzins ( Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Those who truly support our troops pray for victory!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: Secret Agent Man
Here is a Calvinist and dispensationalist interpretation of the passage.
23 posted on 01/21/2014 1:38:46 PM PST by kosciusko51 (Enough of "Who is John Galt?" Who is Patrick Henry?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: Laissez-faire capitalist

Lot was called *righteous Lot* in 2 Peter. Hardly a term that I’d use to describe Lot.

David committed adultery and murder. Wanna guess whether he was saved or not?

Joseph was accused of rape, thus being thrown in prison. I don’t know if those charges were ever dropped.

Moses murdered a man.

Samson was no paragon of virtue either.

Jesus was accused of being a drunkard and glutton for eating and drinking with tax collectors and sinners.

Appearances can be deceitful and we need to be careful of judging a person’s salvation by their ability to conquer the sin which so easily besets all of us. Those works are not necessarily an indicators of one’s salvation.

The message of the cross of which we are ambassadors, is one of reconciliation.

If the person is not saved, it’s reconciliation with God through Jesus Christ for salvation. If they are saved, it is reconciliation for the purpose of restoring fellowship. God is responsible for ensuring the person’s salvation. We can pray and we can encourage, rebuke, exort, etc, but we are not the final Judge and jury.


24 posted on 01/21/2014 1:57:20 PM PST by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith....)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: kosciusko51

Interesting - didn’t know they look the same until they’re close to harvest. Guess they aren’t normal weeds you’d know right away they weren’t wheat.


25 posted on 01/21/2014 2:01:30 PM PST by Secret Agent Man (Gone Galt; Not averse to Going Bronson.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: metmom

Given Joseph became the second in command of all of Egypt under Pharoah, you can be assured those charges were dropped.


26 posted on 01/21/2014 2:04:41 PM PST by Secret Agent Man (Gone Galt; Not averse to Going Bronson.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: Gamecock

Yes, exactly. Everything he points out is true, but it doesn’t really invalidate Calvinism, since Calvinism doesn’t claim to tell us who is and who isn’t saved.


27 posted on 01/21/2014 2:10:31 PM PST by Boogieman
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: Secret Agent Man; UCANSEE2

I thought 1 was for English.

They keep changing these dang phone menus!


28 posted on 01/21/2014 2:13:38 PM PST by Larry Lucido (If you like your all your base, you can keep your all your base. - CATS)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: UCANSEE2
I keep getting a robocall from some tele(phone)evangelist minister who tells me I will be saved if I push #1.

so go ahead and push #1....it certainly can't hurt you, and you may get a free offer of a bible or something!!!

29 posted on 01/21/2014 2:17:33 PM PST by terycarl
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: terycarl; UCANSEE2
push #1....it certainly can't hurt you, and you may get a free offer of a bible or something!!!

And for your love gift of any amount over $25 we will send you a free gift, a blessed rag guaranteed to get the demons off your dishes...

30 posted on 01/21/2014 3:52:52 PM PST by NoCmpromiz (John 14:6 is a non-pluralistic comment.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: Laissez-faire capitalist
Can we as Christians know who will endure until the end? Calvin would say no as well.

Can we as Christians know that all believers will endure to the end? Yes, because it is Christ who keeps us.

Every believer will endure. We don't know the hearts of others. We only know our hearts and what God has promised us-that He will keep us.

The only one who can answer if they're a true believer is themselves. Therefore, we cannot judge others.

31 posted on 01/21/2014 6:07:39 PM PST by HarleyD (...one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NoCmpromiz
And for your love gift of any amount over $25 we will send you a free gift, a blessed rag guaranteed to get the demons off your dishes

BUT STOP...... if you call in the next 20 minutes, we will double the offer....you pay only shipping and handling!!!.....twice the demons off your dishes....

how can you lose?????

32 posted on 01/21/2014 8:51:24 PM PST by terycarl ( some priesta)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: NoCmpromiz
And for your love gift of any amount over $25 we will send you a free gift, a blessed rag guaranteed to get the demons off your dishes

BUT STOP...... if you call in the next 20 minutes, we will double the offer....you pay only shipping and handling!!!.....twice the demons off your dishes....

how can you lose?????

33 posted on 01/21/2014 8:56:32 PM PST by terycarl (common sense prevails over all)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: DariusBane
Why spend a nano second worrying about somebody’s satus.

Maybe because I care about my children, my parents, my siblings, my friends, my relatives, etc.? It pains me to think that they might spend their eternity separated from God.

While we can never definitely know, one's fruits can certainly provide some assurance.

34 posted on 01/22/2014 7:20:10 AM PST by CommerceComet (No more GOP-e. Cruz to victory in 2016.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson