Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Why Arenít Christian Leaders More Discerning?
monergism.com ^ | Oct 1, 2000 | John MacArthur

Posted on 01/22/2014 5:49:08 PM PST by HarleyD

I’ve been all over the world, as you know, and have had lots of discussions with lots of Christian leaders and I’ve read lots of things about the church and the history of the church and the theology of the church. I’ve been all over everywhere and I can just tell you this. Right now in this day, and it’s been this way for a long time through this twentieth century, THE biggest problem in the church is its inability and unwillingness to distinguish true Christians from false. It’s…it’s literally killing the church.

You go all over the world, and you see people who claim to be Christians. I’ve been in the eastern Europe and I’ve seen the orthodox church which is by its own definition a Christian church. They believe they’re the only true Christians in eastern Europe. And then you go into western Europe, and earlier this year in France and then in the last couple of weeks in Italy and there is this massive monolithic system called Roman Catholicism which believes itself to be the only true Christian Church on the planet. It’s one thing for them to believe it, it’s something else for Billy Graham to say the Pope is a fine, outstanding Christian. Something else for him to hold an evangelistic meeting and invite all the Catholics to cooperate. It’s something else for Bill Bright to say that the Pope is a fine, outstanding Christian. It’s something else for people in the ECT, the people who are in Christian leadership in America to embrace the Roman Catholics and say we all love the same Christ, we all serve the same God in the same way. And these are all our Christian brothers and sisters. It’s one thing for these institutions to exist, it’s something else for those people who are Christians to embrace them as if they’re all true Christians. This obliterates the line of clarity and invites the enemy into the camp and just devastates the church.

You can turn on your television and watch TBN. Everybody that comes on is embraced as a Christian, even though it’s just…just filled with false teachers and people who obviously haven’t been delivered…It’s the idea that anybody who believes in Jesus is a Christian. And if you want to push the point beyond that, you’re somehow a problem and you’re divisive and schismatic…Liberal Anglicanism in England back in the 60′s was in its heyday and there were some evangelicals in the Anglican church and they thought…Well, we need to move in to the Anglican church and get a hold of this thing and partner up with these brothers, they’re our brothers. We can’t let things divide us, we’re all one church.

And it was David Martyn Lloyd-Jones who stood up and said this is wrong. You’ve got to separate. And he was vilified and he was marginalized and he was pushed out, but he was right as time has proven because whatever evangelicalism was there has succumb to the power of liberalism and the pollution of the church.

You can look at the American denominations…the historic denominations of the Presbyterians, and the Methodists and the Episcopalians and even largely the Lutherans and others and you can see the tremendous slide. And it goes back. They invited people into their schools, in their seminaries to teach. They said they were Christians but they were wrong and they came in and they stole the institutions and sent them right down the drain. This is deadly stuff. And now you even have evangelical churches that are designing their churches to make unbelievers comfortable.

This is frightening stuff. And I guess I feel at this point, I’ve got nothing to lose anyway, I need to…I have to be accountable to the Lord, it’s just time to stand up and say this…this has got to be brought to the test of Scripture. You can have a thing called Amsterdam 2000, you can have 5,000 so-called evangelists and celebrate all this unity, but who’s finding out whether these people are Christians? They come from Catholicism and orthodox groups and fringe groups and all kinds of strange groups and even some cults. I talked to a man even this week who said he thinks there’s going to be many Mormons in heaven. This is continuing to escalate.

And I guess it’s time to just stand up and say there has to be a line drawn. The issue of who is truly a Christian is at the very center of the church’s life and ministry. This has to be protected. There isn’t any fellowship between light and darkness, is there, 2 Corinthians 6? There isn’t any concord between Christ and Satan. Two can’t walk together unless they be…what?…agreed. You have to come out from among them and be ye separate and touch not the unclean thing.

And here is the church absorbing all of this. And now it’s so confusing that the church itself doesn’t even know who’s a Christian and frankly I don’t think they particularly care as long as you say you believe in Jesus. A friend, Iain Murray who is a gifted theologian and a great biographer, [who] wrote the massive two-volume biography of Martyn Lloyd-Jones has also written on Jonathan Edwards and many others. He is a very esteemed Englishman and has been here many times, we’ve spent many hours together, has written a new book called Evangelicalism Divided in which I read it, just devoured it over the last few weeks while I was in Italy in the plane, in the back of the bus, in the room, everywhere because it just consumed me. Murray is tracking the twentieth century decline of evangelicalism and it’s a book of history that is very, very revealing. And Murray says, and I think he’s absolutely right, he says, the inability of the evangelical church to distinguish between a Christian and a non-Christian is quote: “The greatest failure of professing Christianity in the English-speaking world in the twentieth century,” end quote.

He understands the implications. If you redefine non-Christians as Christians you obliterate the distinctiveness of the church and you therefore create an environment in which you have to tolerate error because these people represent error. He further writes, this is very important and insightful, “The health of the church,” and he’s speaking as a historian here, having tracked it very carefully, “the health of the church has always been in proportion to the extent to which the difference between Christian and non-Christian has been kept sharp and clear.” Absolutely right. The starting point for the church is to be absolutely clear about who is saved and who is not. If we’re not clear about that, then we don’t know who’s on our side and we don’t know who we really need to reach.

From the time that God began to form a people for Himself, Satan endeavored to intrude. From the time that the demons cohabitated with the…with the daughters of men in Genesis 6, Satan has been trying to pollute and mix…all the way down to sowing tares among the wheat. And it’s really true. Murray says, “The most insidious opposition to the gospel has come from within worldly churches.”

I’ll say this as simply as I can. The gospel is more often attacked on TBN than it is on NBC. This has been the legacy of liberalism which has been embraced by quote/unquote “evangelicals.” This has been the legacy of Charismaticism where theology and…I’m not speaking about all the people but for the most part where the Movement tolerates anybody’s view. This has been the legacy of the seeker-friendly pragmatic movement. This has been the legacy of evangelical ecumenism which wants to re-embrace orthodoxy and Catholicism and everybody else. And the confusion goes from the grass roots right on up to the top. I’ve talked to the evangelical brain trust, if you will, and they aren’t even willing to commit to who’s a Christian. Even my conversation with J.I. Packer, so capable and gifted a theologian and writer, when I asked him…what is the line by which you determine a true Christian? All he could say was, “That’s a good question.”

For most of the last part of the twentieth century, the last 50 years, there has been a sustained effort to invent and promote a popular definition of Christianity, which is neither biblical nor legitimate and to fill the church with non-Christians. . .

Satan always wants to get the church confused about who’s saved, then he can infiltrate and take over, as he’s done in so many institutions and denominations.

Iain Murray again writes, “When churches have recovered from apostasy, historically, such as at the time of the Reformation and the eighteenth century evangelical revival…it has always been…by a return to such discriminating preaching and practice.” What he means is when there’s ever a recovery from a time of apostasy, it has come when preaching has become discriminating.

What does it mean to discriminate? If you say you discriminate, what does it mean? If you say…you hear people say, be a discriminating buyer, what does that mean? It means that you can choose the best out of the lot, right? You know how to discriminate. It means to discern. The only hope for the church is discriminating, discerning preaching. I don’t think there’s any organizational answer. I don’t think we need more meetings, more seminars. We need preachers who will stand up and preach discriminating messages.

And Murray says, “Given the great decline in the English-speaking churches of the twentieth century, the chief need again was the reassertion of the meaning of being a Christian.” Wow! The chief hope for the church is discriminating preaching primarily directed at the issue of who is a Christian.

I don’t care how widely known you are as an evangelical leader, to say that Roman Catholics and the Pope are wonderful Christians is not discriminating, he questions somebody’s faculties of discernment. And sometimes I wonder if those who can’t discern the true church can’t discern it because they’re not part of it. I know people who aren’t a part of it can’t discern it because the natural man understands not the things of God. I don’t expect non-Christians to be discerning about the church, but I do expect Christians to be discerning about the church. And yet you have people who have risen to prominence in evangelicalism who have defined evangelicalism on a large scale who lack that discernment. And what we need is exactly what Murray says, we have to have some discriminating preaching. It’s time…it’s time to draw the line again and that means to be unpopular, I hate to say.

And people ask me…why do people do this? Why do they compromise? Why aren’t they discriminating? Why don’t they say what needs to be said? Why don’t they say this is not a Christian institution, these people are not Christians? Why don’t they make a clear-cut line? Why don’t do they do that?

And the only answer I can come up with and I think it’s a general one and Murray in his book agrees with me on this, the fear of being alienated. It’s the fear of man, it’s the desire for popularity. It’s the desire for the widest possible acceptance. It’s the desire for a reputation. It’s the desire not to be marginalized and pushed off into a corner. It’s a desire to be tolerable and tolerant because it affords you some level of popularity. Because it lets you move up the social strata in the world of Christianity. And so they seek the approval of man. And it’s amazing how they can seek the approval of man at the expense of the approval of the Lord of the church.


TOPICS: Evangelical Christian; General Discusssion; Mainline Protestant
KEYWORDS: deliverance; discerning; discriminating; johnmacarthur; macarthur
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-61 next last
And now I'm told you don't even have to be a Christian to be saved.

Dr. MacArthur's article on Deliverance is an expanded version of this article and very insightful.

1 posted on 01/22/2014 5:49:08 PM PST by HarleyD
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: HarleyD

Why? Because they serve another Master.


2 posted on 01/22/2014 5:58:38 PM PST by Noumenon (Resistance. Restoration. Retribution.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: HarleyD
I have always found it ironic that people who have a problem with Catholics have no problem clinging to the absolute truth of every word of a book assembled by Catholics to the near exclusion of all else.
3 posted on 01/22/2014 6:08:10 PM PST by TexasFreeper2009 (Obama lied .. the economy died.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: HarleyD

It’s sad anyone believes a man can be saved without being a Christian. Then again, nothing really surprises me. We know “narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.” Most people live and die without ever understanding the way of salvation, even people on church roles.


4 posted on 01/22/2014 6:12:10 PM PST by .45 Long Colt
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: HarleyD

I understand his point and I agree. I will read the larger article. This excerpt read somewhat like a rant. Truly an important rant however.


5 posted on 01/22/2014 6:18:03 PM PST by outinyellowdogcountry
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: HarleyD

You can turn on your television and watch TBN. Everybody that comes on is embraced as a Christian, even though it’s just…just filled with false teachers and people who obviously haven’t been delivered…


Really? He knows who’s a Christian and who’s not! When did God give him that power to determine who’s saved!!


6 posted on 01/22/2014 6:26:04 PM PST by RginTN
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: .45 Long Colt

**It’s sad anyone believes a man can be saved without being a Christian.**

What about Elijah?

What about Moses?

Both appeared with Christ at the Transfiguration.

What about Enoch, whom the Bible says “Walked with the Lord”?

What about all the souls from the Old Testament who awoke from their graveyard sites and roamed around Jerusalem, visible to the believers? They were waiting for Christ to enter heaven after three days!


7 posted on 01/22/2014 6:31:17 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: HarleyD

Would you please post the follow up article? I would like to read the next one. Thanks!


8 posted on 01/22/2014 6:35:07 PM PST by outinyellowdogcountry
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Salvation

Nothing I said precludes Old Testament saints. The Old Testament saints were saved by the same free grace that saved me.


9 posted on 01/22/2014 6:37:21 PM PST by .45 Long Colt
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: .45 Long Colt

So are you dead too? You used a past tense “saved”. Made ne wonder....not!


10 posted on 01/22/2014 6:38:44 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: .45 Long Colt

You said nothing about Old Testament saints in your original post.


11 posted on 01/22/2014 6:39:49 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: Salvation

I didn’t need to.


12 posted on 01/22/2014 6:45:16 PM PST by .45 Long Colt
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: Salvation

**It’s sad anyone believes a man can be saved without being a Christian.**
.................................
Even sadder when the pope believes it:

“Sharing our experience in carrying that cross, to expel the illness within our hearts, which embitters our life: it is important that you do this in your meetings. Those that are Christian, with the Bible, and those that are Muslim, with the Quran. The faith that your parents instilled in you will always help you move on.”


13 posted on 01/22/2014 6:57:35 PM PST by bramps (Mark Levin: Would Christie, McConnell, and Boehner repeal obamacare? Not a chance!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

Comment #14 Removed by Moderator

To: Salvation

Since I suspect you don’t really care what I believe I’m not going to spend time giving a thoughtful answer. I thoroughly reject Rome’s teaching on assurance, just as I do most of her teaching.

For anyone struggling with assurance, Bishop Ryle’s short brief on assurance is worthwhile.

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/sdg/ryle/ryle_assurance.html

“We are always confident, knowing that whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord.” (2 Cor. 5:6)


15 posted on 01/22/2014 7:13:16 PM PST by .45 Long Colt
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: HarleyD

While I agree with most everything MacArthur says, I would ask, what is the solution?

A doctrinal checklist that we have to sign off on before we can have fellowship? Who writes the list? How many issues are on it? 10? 100? 1,000? Who decides how many have to be checked “correctly” before one is accepted?

Or should evangelicals have their own “Inquisition”?

I remember a couple years after entering the ministry, I was in a restaurant eating breakfast studying my Bible. I thought a group next to me were believers by their talk, and sure enough, as they were leaving one came up to me. He began asking me questions: Did I believe in Jesus? His death, burial, resurrection? Ascension? Bodily return?

And so he went on through about 20 matters. He definitely was in an inquisition mode. He was stern. I was being interrogated. It troubled me.

Finally, when I had properly answered all of his questions correctly enough to satisfy him that I truly was a believer, he shouted, “Praise the Lord!”, gave a big smile and gave me a big hug.

That experience deeply troubled me, and for years I’ve used it as an example - of how we are NOT to have fellowship when we meet other believers.

I believe that when one says they are a Christian, we initially take them at their word, and seek to fellowship in the Lord. In time, we will find if they are truly believers. Then we can decide on our level of fellowship with them.

Another issue is that true believers in Christ do not all share the same doctrines - we all know this. What do we do here? At what point do we accept doctrinal differences, and at what point to we make it an issue of fellowship?

Paul said he preached “Jesus Christ and Him crucified...”, strongly implying that that was the foundation and focus of his ministry. Jesus Christ, His Person, and His work. The essentials of salvation.

What our dear brother has not addressed, at least in what I’ve read so far, is a solution to the problem. How do we join in fellowship with other true believers while in no way further dividing the already incredibly splintered body of Christ?

This is the elephant in the room. It is one thing to describe the problem.

And wholly another to provide a solution.

If so led, and if I have time, I may offer my thoughts on a solution at a later time.......


16 posted on 01/22/2014 7:25:37 PM PST by Arlis
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: .45 Long Colt

Let’s ponder for a moment what God ourFather may think. Let’s see, I accept my sons offer to go to the world to help those who are no more knowledgable than ants, they then kill him physically by their sins and deeds and cannot even visualize what is being said, then they say they worship me, I need no worship from ants who don’t know I am there..so after all of the heavenly effort they think I am an ego maniac...the truth is I live in all, if you love me, love me in all, you are but embryos in a galactic egg..I speak to you through your reality and from the outside so you may learn to hear my voice, to worship me, love me in all things.., since my son died for you, to not accept this divine gift which my beloved suffered so terribly for..i would suggest all on earth seek my favor and learn to heal the body, else i will pour my wrath out on the world....I spoke to you through the Aeons and continually call you to a supernatural reality, to not accept my son as the only reason you hear me at all and your saviour is to kick me in the teeth..at the coming my mercy will end...
So when we see christians we should see and confess we do not understand, it is not about how good we are, because we confess being christian and seek to repent we should be the first to display our humility..
Look at john the baptist, said to be the greatest man on earth, I am not worthy to tie his shoes, but this should give great joy to earth..we will always be seen as hypocritical..we are..but we have a king who is rightious and knows the Father, who sees the reality he has made for us. If the world cannot see in their hearts, the egg was not fertilized by the spirit of God..and will not be born in the heavenly kingdom.....as Jesus said, they will know you by your love for each other.


17 posted on 01/22/2014 7:27:52 PM PST by aces (Jesus Saves not Society)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: .45 Long Colt

FAITH! in who? Yahweh Repentance...Obedience...Righteousness...Who is Yahweh...Elohim...plural godhead...Yahshua...his death, burial and resurrection...atonement...born again...Salvation.


18 posted on 01/22/2014 7:30:23 PM PST by ladyL
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: Salvation

All can be saved through Christ, none are worthy..not moses, or any prophet that appeared in the trasfiguration..they all have to know who God is, Christ is the only voice this world has ever heard, if we could turn creation backwards it would melt into Christ words, let there be light. There is no other way, all previous knowledge given through the ages is severed and unfulfilled...Rejoice, God has given us a just, knowledgable, king..make his path straight....smile..


19 posted on 01/22/2014 7:34:30 PM PST by aces (Jesus Saves not Society)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: aces

So are you saying you can believe that you are saved, then go off and embezzle your employer, or kill your neighbor, and you will still get to heaven?

OSAS is a false doctrine.


20 posted on 01/22/2014 7:37:42 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: Salvation

That is not loving each other, but Christ has the vision and authority to forgive..we should strive to be the hest children we can, not if we fall, we all do, although not taken lightly..there is not one here on earth who before an infinite perfect God can stand..God is infinite, our sins are not washed in time because we are good, its there in our minds in iur hearts history..so we must be washed in his blood to forgive ourselves. In that knowledge we begin to see the transition...their is no salvation end run around Christ for the jewish people, islamic people, etc.. but I do belive theLord is raising different relationships as the reason we are created..interesting..


21 posted on 01/22/2014 7:50:21 PM PST by aces (Jesus Saves not Society)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: TexasFreeper2009

That’s the view according to dead religion, which credits man with putting together the Bible. Since the Catholic Church says it goes back to Peter, you would also claim it wrote the New Testament. The church isn’t an institution, though, but the body of Christ made up of believers who have been born again through Christ. I remember reading that the Catholic Church adopted celibacy for priests for monetary reasons and ever since it did it’s been extremely wealthy and spending lavishly on itself. It’s also gone after the ways of the world, which is why it doesn’t take the Bible literally. If Genesis isn’t true, then the genealogies given for Jesus in the New Testament are wrong, and that is only one place where Catholic doctrine isn’t consistent. As the Word of God says, though, Scripture was written by men who were led by the Holy Spirit. And God’s Word also says that wolves would come into the flock. The Catholic Church hasn’t stayed true to God’s Word, and the Catholic Church today is very different from the early Church. You have to wonder if early Christians would recognize it as Christian.


22 posted on 01/22/2014 8:00:24 PM PST by Faith Presses On
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: HarleyD
1 Corinthians 12:19-21

19 If they were all one member, where would the body be? 20 But now there are many members, but one body. 21 And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; or again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.”

23 posted on 01/22/2014 8:10:49 PM PST by Manic_Episode (Some d..ays...it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps....)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Faith Presses On

**Spirit. And God’s Word also says that wolves would come into the flock. The Catholic Church hasn’t stayed true to God’s Word, and the Catholic Church today is very different from the early Church. You have to wonder if early Christians would recognize it as Christian.**

Have you read anything from Justin Martyr? I think the early Christians would recognize Catholics today, for our Mass is nearly the same as it was in the times of the Early Church fathers.

It’s other denominations that need to be worried here.


24 posted on 01/22/2014 8:34:13 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: Faith Presses On

25 posted on 01/22/2014 8:36:00 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: Faith Presses On
The new testament is mostly just a collection of letters written during the first century AD that the Catholic church assembled into a book at the council of Trent in the 16th century.

It's not like God handed the completed work to some guy on a mountain like he did with Moses and the 10 commandments.

I just have always found it interesting that we believers seem to believe that no one in the last 1900 years has written anything God inspired that could be added. And why do we only study these letters assembled by the Catholic church to the virtual exclusion of all else.

I assume from what you wrote that your a protestant (as am I). How come we don't study the writings of Martin Luther or others which formed the basis of all protestant denominations in our sunday school classes? Are there no God inspired protestant writings?

26 posted on 01/22/2014 8:58:01 PM PST by TexasFreeper2009 (Obama lied .. the economy died.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: Salvation

> What about Elijah?
> What about Moses?
> Both appeared with Christ at the Transfiguration.
> What about Enoch, whom the Bible says “Walked with the Lord”?
> What about all the souls from the Old Testament who awoke from their graveyard sites and roamed around Jerusalem, visible to the believers?

From John 8

True Disciples

31 Then Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in him, “If you continue in my word, you are truly my disciples; 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.” 33 They answered him, “We are descendants of Abraham and have never been slaves to anyone. What do you mean by saying, ‘You will be made free’?”

34 Jesus answered them, “Very truly, I tell you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. 35 The slave does not have a permanent place in the household; the son has a place there forever. 36 So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed. 37 I know that you are descendants of Abraham; yet you look for an opportunity to kill me, because there is no place in you for my word. 38 I declare what I have seen in the Father’s presence; as for you, you should do what you have heard from the Father.”[i]
Jesus and Abraham

39 They answered him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would be doing[j] what Abraham did, 40 but now you are trying to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. This is not what Abraham did. 41 You are indeed doing what your father does.” They said to him, “We are not illegitimate children; we have one father, God himself.” 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now I am here. I did not come on my own, but he sent me. 43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot accept my word. 44 You are from your father the devil, and you choose to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. 46 Which of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? 47 Whoever is from God hears the words of God. The reason you do not hear them is that you are not from God.”


27 posted on 01/22/2014 9:00:48 PM PST by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: Salvation
OSAS is a false doctrine.

And yet Jesus himself said:
“And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.” John 6:39

If you are saying that once saved, always saved is false, then are you not calling Jesus unable to perform the will of God and lose none of them given him?

28 posted on 01/22/2014 9:06:08 PM PST by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: TexasFreeper2009
I have always found it ironic that people who have a problem with Catholics have no problem clinging to the absolute truth of every word of a book assembled by Catholics to the near exclusion of all else.

Probably because they know something you apparently don't...

Many of us know that the book you are referring to condemns your religion in numerous places...So that invalidates any false claim by your religion that it is the author of that book...

29 posted on 01/22/2014 9:19:27 PM PST by Iscool
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: Salvation; .45 Long Colt
So are you dead too? You used a past tense “saved”. Made ne wonder....not!

HaHaHa...A saved person knows he's dead...

30 posted on 01/22/2014 9:24:32 PM PST by Iscool
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: Salvation
So are you saying you can believe that you are saved, then go off and embezzle your employer, or kill your neighbor, and you will still get to heaven?

Can a Catholic do these things and still get to heaven or is he/she condemned to hell???

31 posted on 01/22/2014 9:29:50 PM PST by Iscool
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: HarleyD

“The gospel is more often attacked on TBN than it is on NBC.”

I agree. That station is horrible. Non stop prosperity “gospel” round the clock. They have their moments with playing old movies but the rest is like watching infomercials.


32 posted on 01/22/2014 9:57:42 PM PST by redleghunter
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: TexasFreeper2009

Who is the Author of Holy Scriptures? I guess the caps gave it away.


33 posted on 01/22/2014 9:59:36 PM PST by redleghunter
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: Salvation

I will search the NT for direction and any guidance on a liturgy. The Didache is probably the closest given the time frame. However that document is very basic which is evident of the PCC.


34 posted on 01/22/2014 10:20:26 PM PST by redleghunter
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: Faith Presses On

So far as we know, Jesus was celibate, and at age thirty he was in early middle age by the standards of the time he began his mission.


35 posted on 01/22/2014 10:29:26 PM PST by RobbyS (quotes)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: redleghunter

The New Testament does not prescribe a liturgy. That three of the Gospels make the last supper a part of the Passion of Christ, and the ritual that Jesus mandates, suggests that it should be part of that liturgy, along with prayers and Scripture and preaching.


36 posted on 01/22/2014 10:33:57 PM PST by RobbyS (quotes)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: Iscool

The sinner who repents truly can see God.


37 posted on 01/22/2014 10:36:12 PM PST by RobbyS (quotes)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: Iscool

The Book does no such thing.


38 posted on 01/22/2014 10:37:19 PM PST by RobbyS (quotes)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: TexasFreeper2009

Check your history. The OT canon was affirmed by Christ in Luke 24. The NT canon was set based on apostolic authority. Meaning the early church had a very good understanding which books or epistles came from actual apostles who walked with Christ or received direct revelation as in the case of Paul.

I find it interesting Catholics try to corner the market on the early fathers as do the Orthodox. They were pious studious men who could hear the Good Shepherd’s Voice in the Gospels of John, Mark, Matthew and Luke but not in Thomas and others. There was also an unbroken chain in the use of what became the NT canon. Just after John’s death we see in Polycarp’s epistle to the Philippians the extensive use of what we call the NT Scriptures. Check this out:

http://www.ntcanon.org/Polycarp.shtml

Now to address this using an analogy. We as Christians believe all Scriptures are inspired by God. He, so to speak, is the “Artist.” When we go to the Louvre we are awed by the wonderful works of art. We expect to see works of art from Leonardo Da Vinci, Michelangelo and other great artists. Since these great works reside in the Louvre does it mean the Louvre is responsible for making the works of art? Of course not, but we thank the Louvre for having a keen eye for art which the curators were taught to look for.

So the early church fathers did not make the scriptures authoritative. They were already authoritative because they came from the “Artist” God.


39 posted on 01/22/2014 10:44:27 PM PST by redleghunter
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: RobbyS
The Book does no such thing.

Really?

Mark 7:1-12
Now when the Pharisees and some of the scribes who had come from Jerusalem gathered around him, they noticed that some of his disciples were eating with defiled hands, that is, without washing them. (For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, do not eat unless they thoroughly wash their hands, thus observing the tradition of the elders; and they do not eat anything from the market unless they wash it; and there are also many other traditions that they observe, the washing of cups, pots, and bronze kettles.) So the Pharisees and the scribes asked him, “Why do your disciples not live according to the tradition of the elders, but eat with defiled hands?” He said to them, “Isaiah prophesied rightly about you hypocrites, as it is written,

‘This people honors me with their lips,
    but their hearts are far from me;
  in vain do they worship me,
    teaching human precepts as doctrines.’

You abandon the commandment of God and hold to human tradition.”

Then he said to them, “You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition! For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘Whoever speaks evil of father or mother must surely die.’ But you say that if anyone tells father or mother, ‘Whatever support you might have had from me is Corban’ (that is, an offering to God)— then you no longer permit doing anything for a father or mother, thus making void the word of God through your tradition that you have handed on. And you do many things like this.

40 posted on 01/22/2014 11:03:31 PM PST by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: Iscool; Salvation

Indeed! I am most aware I was dead in sins and trespasses. It’s a wonderful thing that Christ came to seek and save that which was lost. (see Luke 19:10).


41 posted on 01/23/2014 5:10:22 AM PST by .45 Long Colt
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: Salvation
I think the early Christians would recognize Catholics today, for our Mass is nearly the same as it was in the times of the Early Church fathers.

Really?????? Do you really mean that? Do you mean that everything that is said and done is nearly the same?? Really??

Perhaps the rote rituals. I don't know enough, nor really care to in order to agree with or refute that point. But I do know that Jesus told the Samaritan woman at the well that now that He has come, we are to worship Him in spirit and in truth.

This did NOT happen at a packed Christmas Eve mass (SRO) in an inner city church that I attended just last month. The priest has been around for many years. He began his homily on where his hope lies. (ok, that is a good start for Christmas Eve).

But he went on to say that it is with the pope and he went on and on, often mentioning some of the most bizarre things this pope has said recently. Next, was his hope in the dioceses and the bishop. But his biggest hope? Ok, I thought - NOW he will speak of our blessed Lord. Oh, no. The biggest hope of this priest was all the people there that night. I quit counting after the guy mentioned the pope and the bishop at least 30 times. He also mentioned how he was glad to embrace homosexuals and they were also his hope. He mentioned the name of Jesus ONE time. Just one. And that was to end his homily "in Jesus's name".

The early Christians "might" have recognized the smells and bells but they would have been appalled at the words as much I was. There was no worshipping the advent of Christ Jesus in Spirit and in Truth. None. The early Christians would have thought they were in a pagan temple. I did.

The saddest thing of all was that the mass of people seemed to just be fine with all of it. :(

42 posted on 01/23/2014 5:26:08 AM PST by lupie
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: lupie
The early Christians "might" have recognized the smells and bells but they would have been appalled at the words as much I was. There was no worshipping the advent of Christ Jesus in Spirit and in Truth. None. The early Christians would have thought they were in a pagan temple. I did.

You experienced a bad homily by a confused priest. How does that diminish the essence of the Mass?

The saddest thing of all was that the mass of people seemed to just be fine with all of it. :(

How do you know?

43 posted on 01/23/2014 5:30:07 AM PST by St_Thomas_Aquinas ( Isaiah 22:22, Matthew 16:19, Revelation 3:7)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 42 | View Replies]

To: HarleyD

“Iain Murray again writes, “When churches have recovered from apostasy, historically, such as at the time of the Reformation and the eighteenth century evangelical revival…it has always been…by a return to such discriminating preaching and practice.” What he means is when there’s ever a recovery from a time of apostasy, it has come when preaching has become discriminating.

What does it mean to discriminate? If you say you discriminate, what does it mean? If you say…you hear people say, be a discriminating buyer, what does that mean? It means that you can choose the best out of the lot, right? You know how to discriminate. It means to discern. The only hope for the church is discriminating, discerning preaching. I don’t think there’s any organizational answer. I don’t think we need more meetings, more seminars. We need preachers who will stand up and preach discriminating messages.

And Murray says, “Given the great decline in the English-speaking churches of the twentieth century, the chief need again was the reassertion of the meaning of being a Christian.” Wow! The chief hope for the church is discriminating preaching primarily directed at the issue of who is a Christian.”

Exactly. Today’s “church” is full of undiscernment and indiscriminate thought and belief. That’s why Western culture is in the mess it’s in today.


44 posted on 01/23/2014 5:39:57 AM PST by ReformationFan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: St_Thomas_Aquinas

How do I know? Very easy - I was watching people’s faces and body language. I was sitting where I could see most of the people.

As for the rest of your post - well, it pretty much validates what I said, and very much validates the content of the original article.


45 posted on 01/23/2014 6:31:26 AM PST by lupie
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 43 | View Replies]

To: RobbyS
Many of us know that the book you are referring to condemns your religion in numerous places...So that invalidates any false claim by your religion that it is the author of that book...

The Book does no such thing.

The 15 promises of the Rosary:

1. To all those who shall pray my Rosary devoutly, I promise my special protection and great graces.
2. Those who shall persevere in the recitation of my Rosary will receive some special grace.
3. The Rosary will be a very powerful armor against hell; it will destroy vice, deliver from sin and dispel heresy.
4. The rosary will make virtue and good works flourish, and will obtain for souls the most abundant divine mercies. It will draw the hearts of men from the love of the world and its vanities, and will lift them to the desire of eternal things. Oh, that souls would sanctify themselves by this means.

This is a contradiction of the Bible...The Bible teaches in John 17:17, "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth." It is the Word of God that sanctifies us (sets us apart from the world and to God). Catholicism elevates the rosary above the Word of God. The rosary cannot sanctify you. How can you be sanctified by repeating a bunch of vain repetitions?

The term "hail Mary" is NOT even mentioned once in the Bible! Not once! Think about it.

5. Those who trust themselves to me through the Rosary will not perish.

This is one of the most blasphemous statements in here. Your Catholic religion teaches that those who trust MARY through the ROSARY will not perish. That's a dirty lie of the devil. The Bible proclaims:

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

6. Whoever recites my Rosary devoutly reflecting on the mysteries, shall never be overwhelmed by misfortune. He will not experience the anger of God nor will he perish by an unprovided death. The sinner will be converted; the just will persevere in grace and merit eternal life.

A Catholic will never be overwhelmed with misfortune??? Tell my you know this is a lie...

This is extreme Catholic blasphemy against a Holy God. No sinner will ever be converted by reciting the rosary! The ONLY hope of salvation is through Jesus Christ ALONE...

Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

7. Those truly devoted to my Rosary shall not die without the sacraments of the Church.
8. Those who are faithful to recite my Rosary shall have during their life and at their death the light of God and the plenitude of His graces and will share in the merits of the blessed.
9. I will deliver promptly from purgatory souls devoted to my Rosary.
10. True children of my Rosary will enjoy great glory in heaven.
11. What you shall ask through my Rosary you shall obtain.
12. To those who propagate my Rosary I promise aid in all their necessities.
13. I have obtained from my Son that all the members of the Rosary Confraternity shall have as their intercessors, in life and in death, the entire celestial court.
14. Those who recite my Rosary faithfully are my beloved children, the brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ.
15. Devotion to my Rosary is a special sign of predestination.

I just picked on a couple of the lies in your Rosary...The bible is rife with the condemnation of your religion...

46 posted on 01/23/2014 7:29:05 AM PST by Iscool
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: Salvation
OSAS is a false doctrine.

If you could lose eternal life, it's not eternal is it?

1 John 5:11-13 ... present tense verbs ...

47 posted on 01/23/2014 8:53:12 AM PST by dartuser
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: Iscool

The Living Word of God is jesus. As for the rest, you are simply being perverse.


48 posted on 01/23/2014 9:07:04 AM PST by RobbyS (quotes)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 46 | View Replies]

To: lupie

They were supposed to throw rocks?


49 posted on 01/23/2014 9:09:40 AM PST by RobbyS (quotes)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 42 | View Replies]

To: lupie; daniel1212
The early Christians "might" have recognized the smells and bells but they would have been appalled at the words as much I was. There was no worshipping the advent of Christ Jesus in Spirit and in Truth. None. The early Christians would have thought they were in a pagan temple. I did.

Below is the communion or Lord's Supper in accordance to the Didache (Estimated Range of Dating: 50-120 A.D.) which is the earliest artifact we have of what early early Christians were practicing:

CHAPTER 9 THE THANKSGIVING SACRAMENT 1) Now concerning the Thanksgiving meal, give thanks in this manner. 2) First, concerning the cup: We thank You, our Father, For the Holy Vine of David Your servant, Whom You made known to us through Your Servant; May the glory be Yours forever. 3) Concerning the broken bread: We thank You, our Father, For the life and knowledge Which You made known to us through Your Servant; May the glory be Yours forever. As this broken bread was scattered over the mountains, And was gathered together to become one, So let Your Body of Faithful be gathered together From the ends of the earth into Your kingdom; for the glory and power are Yours forever. 5) But let no one eat or drink of your Thanksgiving, unless they have been baptized; for concerning this is taught, "Do not give what is holy to dogs."

CHAPTER 10 PRAYER AFTER COMMUNION 1) After the meal, give thanks in this manner: 2) We offer thanks, Holy Father, For Your Holy Name which fills our hearts, And for the knowledge, faith and eternal life, You made known to us through Your Servant; Yours is the glory forever. 3) Almighty Master, You created all things for Your own purpose; You gave men food and drink to enjoy, That they might give You thanks; But to us You freely give spiritual food and drink, And eternal life through Your Servant. 4) Foremost, we thank You because You are mighty; Yours is the glory forever. 5) Remember Your Body of Servants, To deliver it from everything evil And perfect it according to Your love, And gather it from the four winds, Sanctified for Your kingdom which You have prepared for it; For the power and glory are Yours forever. 6) Let Your grace come, And let this world pass away. Hosanna to the God of David! May all who are holy, come; Let those who are not, repent. Maranatha. Amen. 7)But permit the prophets to make Thanksgiving as they wish.(http://web.archive.org/web/20101009033540/http://ivanlewis.com/Didache/didache.html)

As the 'old commerical' says "you make the call." I see a simple assembly of God fearing believers who based the document on Scriptures.

We also know during this same timeframe, if the earlier date range the apostles were still around. If the later date range we know someone in Polycarp was still around. In Polycarp's epistle to the Philippians we see a solid use and knowledge of what we call the NT canon today. Polycarp's epistle is in the date range of 110-140 A.D. This is an important period, because we hear a lot about a large time duration happened to figure out the NT canon. However, looking at Polycarp's (served under John the apostle) epistle, we see none of the spurious "gospels" or "books" quoted the later church fathers refuted and dismissed. Which leads to the conclusion, that those who were of the faith knew the true apostolic writings because they heard the Voice of Good Sheperd in the Gospels of John, Luke, Matthew and Mark but not in Thomas and others. Below is a link to a site which lists in detail the NT books Polycarp quotes in his epistle:

Polycarp and the NT

50 posted on 01/23/2014 10:10:22 AM PST by redleghunter
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 42 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-61 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson