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The Problem of Pot. A Reflection on the Increasing Legalization of Marijuana
Archdiocese of Washington ^ | 1/26/2014 | Msgr. Charles Pope

Posted on 01/27/2014 3:23:41 AM PST by markomalley

It is perhaps emblematic of our decadent times that the two most noteworthy legal maneuvers of late, occupying significant time and resources of the the legislative and judicial branches are: providing legal recognition to homosexual unions, and the legalization of the smoking of marijuana. Welcome to the decadent West.

To these legal maneuvers it must be added to other ignominies of recent decades such as no-fault divorce and the horrifying legalization of the killing of the unborn; 53 million dead Americans and counting, plus the untold cost of the destruction of marriage and family as we once knew it.

Maybe there is a certain perverted “Logic” to wanting to legalize getting stoned. People after all need to medicate their anxious and bewildered souls! I say this, of course, tongue-in-cheek.

I think this is the first time I have commented on the increasing attempt to legalize the use and sale of marijuana “in small amounts.” Frankly, there are bigger issues. Most of us know that pot has been around for a while is probably here to stay. Nevertheless our insistence that we legalize its selling and use is not a healthy sign.

I suppose the libertarian in me says, “Why should the government care if people smoke a little weed. But the pragmatist in me says, “The last thing we need is a more widespread use of another mind altering drug that makes people, frankly, stupid.”

A few disclaimers, before I make my main point.

1. Some claim, that alcohol has caused far more harm than pot. This is probably so. But of course alcohol is more widely used, and that surely explains its more devastating effects in our culture. And it hardly makes sense to argue that sanctioning another legal mind altering drug will have little or no effect through traffic accidents and other deleterious behaviors. Of course it will, being out of our right mind is seldom going to produce good effects.

The bottom line is alcohol has been with us almost from the beginning, and is here to stay. It is in a different category that other drugs in that the Scriptures permit, even commend its moderate use, and Jesus made wine and used it for the sacrament of his Blood.

No one would argue that alcohol abuse is a good thing. Why add to the problem with pot?

2. Some say that legal sanctions are not the proper way to deal with drug use. To some degree it is reasonable to argue that incarcerating people with drug problems is not a wise approach. Perhaps it is these more punitive measures that need adjustment, rather then sanctioning the use of marijuana by the removal of most legal obstacles to its sale and use.

3. Some say that laws will not stop the use of pot, it is a cultural trend and people who want to use it will find a way. I will say that law has influenced me. Knowing that something is illegal and carries possible severe legal issues influences my thinking an helps my choice to stay away from such proscribed behaviors, not just with drugs, but other illegal activities too. I doubt I am alone. Law does have a pedagogical (educational) function.

4. I ought to say, I have never even tried pot. Frankly I have never even taken a drag on an ordinary cigarette, not even once. The thought of dragging filthy smoke into my lungs has never had any appeal to me. I like the smell of a good cigar or pipe, or incense but I have no interest in dragging that stuff into my lungs in large and literally choking quantities. That the anti-smoking zealots are not on the warpath about smoking dope is a puzzling silence and probably another example of the self-censorship of political correctness.

But on to the main point, Namely, a discussion I would like to have about the observed effects of marijuana use. I want to say that the reflections I offer, are anecdotal; they are not rooted in advanced statistical studies. Frankly, I don’t have a lot of interest in looking up the statistical surveys on pot use, most of which will be questioned by anyone who doesn’t like the results anyway. I am more interested in having a discussion here about the effects of marijuana use as I have observed them, and to inquire of your own experience with having either used marijuana, or observed others who do.

Some say that pot causes no harm. I disagree from about fifty + years of observation of what I have seen it do to others.

Back in high school (mid 70s) about 30% of the students in my Public High School of 3,500 students smoked dope regularly. They called in “partying” “getting stoned” or “getting high” in those days.

It wasn’t hard to know when someone started using marijuana. Almost instantly their over all attitude changed. Many who had been good students, engaged and talented, started to withdraw, and adopt a passive aggressive stance.

Regular pot use by them, from my observation, caused a kind of lethargy, a sort of laid-back, who-cares attitude often mixed in with a non-complaint resistance: “Hey man, I ain’t got to go to the man’s class…”

The look on the face of pot users came to seem vacant and dull, their eyes glazed and unfocused. Their posture became slouchy, clothing and hygiene suffered. Absenteeism and tardiness increased. And when they were in class at all, they weren’t really engaged or alive. Their faces tended to take on a kind of hang-dog look, jaw half open, hands in their pocket, shirt untucked; they seemed bored with life, and uninterested. Frankly, they seemed “medicated.”

Generally grades dropped and anti-social tendencies increased. Some who had once played sports withdrew when drugs entered. Membership in other clubs also ceased and was replaced with hangin’ out in the smoking court, a place (in those days) set aside for students who smoked cigarettes.

Now mind you these were the after-effects of pot use. I am not saying they were “high” all the time. But long after the high was gone, these lethargic symptoms lingered and became a rather stable part of their disposition.

Except for those who are in more advanced stages of alcohol abuse, the effects of the alcohol abate after intoxication passes (plus perhaps a brief hangover). But pot seems different, it seems to alter the personality more “stably” so that the user is dull even when not high.

Some may call this dullness by more positive labels such as being laid-back, carefree, or cool. But I am sorry, I have seen spiritually serene people, and they don’t come across as medicated. What a spiritually serene person manifests is worlds apart from the dulled medicated look of pot smokers.

Now as I say, this is my anecdotal testimony. But I offer it with fifty-two years experience, 25 of them as a priest and counselor.

Pot is no good. It messes with your mind on a semi-permanent basis, causes lethargy, dullness and makes you unmotivated. Getting “high” introduces a kind of dull and low bottom dwelling when the “high” is gone.

Don’t do drugs. Pot is not harmless, it will change your personality and make you dull of mind and heart. It introduces stinking thinking.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church says,

The use of drugs inflicts very grave damage on human health and life. Their use, except on strictly therapeutic grounds, is a grave offense. Clandestine production of and trafficking in drugs are scandalous practices. They constitute direct co-operation in evil, since they encourage people to practices gravely contrary to the moral law. (# 2291)

This is pretty unambiguous and something a Catholic ought to take to heart before saying the legalization of drugs is no big deal. And while many say pot is harmless, my experience of observing others is that it is not harmless at all.

How say you? What have you observed?


TOPICS: Catholic
KEYWORDS: msgrcharlespope
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Interesting with the Catechism on the difference between its treatment of alcohol & tobacco versus drugs:

2290    The virtue of temperance disposes us to avoid every kind of excess: the abuse of food, alcohol, tobacco, or medicine. Those incur grave guilt who, by drunkenness or a love of speed, endanger their own and others’ safety on the road, at sea, or in the air. (1809)

2291    The use of drugs inflicts very grave damage on human health and life. Their use, except on strictly therapeutic grounds, is a grave offense. Clandestine production of and trafficking in drugs are scandalous practices. They constitute direct co-operation in evil, since they encourage people to practices gravely contrary to the moral law.

Notice the different tenor of both paragraphs. If you take an ultra-strict view of 2291, would it not also include caffeine (which, if abused, can cause sleep problems and, in fact, heart problems...if taken to the extreme)?

On the other hand, we have some Scriptures that talk about this, most notably:

Gal 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are obvious: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery (φαρμακεία - pharmakeia), hatreds, rivalry, jealousy, outbursts of fury, acts of selfishness, dissensions, factions, occasions of envy, 15 drinking bouts, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

According to Liddel Scott James, φαρμακεία includes both ordinary remedies and "enchanted potions"

Now, while I'm not advocating legalization of dope -- I see no societal benefit to it -- I'm not 100% that it's as clear, from a moral theological view, that the use of marijuana would still be considered "grave" in the event that it was legal. That is, unless we take a totally "mormon" view to the situation and ANYTHING would be considered morally illicit...including the cup of coffee you're drinking while reading this.

I think to know the answer to this for sure, we'd need to research if there were abject objections to the use (as opposed to abuse) of marijuana in the era prior to it being made illegal. Frankly, I don't have the time or resources available to do so, but would be interested if any of you do.

1 posted on 01/27/2014 3:23:41 AM PST by markomalley
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To: Biggirl; ConorMacNessa; Heart-Rest; Mercat; Mrs. Don-o; Nervous Tick; RoadGumby; Salvation; NYer; ..

Msgr Pope ping


2 posted on 01/27/2014 3:24:34 AM PST by markomalley (Nothing emboldens the wicked so greatly as the lack of courage on the part of the good -- Leo XIII)
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To: markomalley; Tax-chick; GregB; Berlin_Freeper; SumProVita; narses; bboop; SevenofNine; ...

Ping!


3 posted on 01/27/2014 3:40:05 AM PST by NYer ("The wise man is the one who can save his soul. - St. Nimatullah Al-Hardini)
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To: markomalley

TS Eliot said that man cannot take too much reality, so there will probably always be intoxicants around. However, the reason alcohol has had such a long track record in the world’s best and most advanced societies is that it “gladdens the heart of man” in a way that does not have disastrous permanent effects, except in the case of overuse, especially overuse leading to addiction or dependence.

There has never been a culture that has thrived on marijuana as an intoxicant. It is heavily used in the ME and is evidently permitted by Islam, unlike alcohol, and we can all see how great those cultures are. When not full of rage, they are full of lethargy, and the use of pot, hash, and even the steady use of khat is a massive social problem and one that contributes to the economic inertia of ME societies, particularly at their lower levels.

The use of opium and heroin has a similar effect on societies where it is permitted: look at China in the 19th century.

There have been times when alcohol use has been too heavy in general in a society, normally because of the miserable, hopeless conditions of a particular societal moment (England in the Industrial Revolution, Russia under Communism, etc.) and then you will often see a spontaneous movement to restrict or abandon it. This can usually be accomplished by public pressure, sometimes supported by legal restrictions. But it seems to be something that societies have dealt with and corrected at various times, usually by changing the conditions that encouraged excessive use.

But pot and virtually all of the other drugs produce lethargy and dysfunction on such a level that it affects society as a whole. Perhaps the local dictator likes it because a drugged people is a docile people, and stoners don’t demand much out of life except munchies and more dope, but it certainly doesn’t have a good overall effect.

I too have seen teenagers going from being energetic future-oriented young people to being dull, unfocused and passive “negatives” of their former selves. And some of this is irreversible. I personally watched two young people throw away all their abilities and hopes - and then be physically unable to get them back again because their brains just simply weren’t the same anymore. I have also seen people suffering from acute paranoia as a result of marijuana use. This is without even considering the physical effects, since the tars in pot smoke are much heavier than those in tobacco smoke; one of my high school friends couldn’t even get up a flight of stairs without wheezing like an 80 year old.

So I think the negative effects actually are worse, and I don’t see why we should be encouraging lot use by legalizing it. There’s really no way of using it that is healthy either for the individual or for society as a whole.

The only people who benefit are the politicians (like Obama) who think they are going to get the libertarian vote and perhaps persuade the slackers to get off the basement couch and vote for them. And the political forces that want an easily controlled society.


4 posted on 01/27/2014 4:03:27 AM PST by livius
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To: markomalley
drawing from roughly 15 years of my own experience after quitting somewhere around 80/81 .. In a phrase I'd put reefer in the 'do nothing' category.

If, while high, I or we did anything, it was generally slow, methodical, not necesarily the best and generally quite funny. We used to use Saturdays as "marijuana mechanical mania' day ... the day we decide to change the starter or something.

Grab a case of beer, 2, 3, 4 or more friends, spend the first hour or so just getting high ... VERY fun times ... then SOMEone would say somrtyhing like; "Well ... are we gonn'a DO this or what?"

We'd finish just in time to shower and get ready for the Saturday night party at SOMEone's house.

GREAT times .... but we got nothin' done.

If I was alone, I'd read, or sleep or do something absolutely fascinating to me ... painting, whittling, taking a walk, staring at the flutes of a mushroom for hours.

GREAT times ... but got absolutely NOTHING done.

So that's my qualified opinion of pot ... it's fun, relaxing, sexy, and any et cetera's you want to add in that vein ... but you get nothing done ....

unless having fun is an accomplishment.

5 posted on 01/27/2014 4:09:54 AM PST by knarf (I say things that are true .. I have no proof .. but they're true.)
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To: livius

Great observations. I agree wholeheartedly with everything you are saying.

But the question I have is not if it is imprudent (which, based on both of our recollections, it is), but if it is “grave matter” when consumed in a place where it is legal.


6 posted on 01/27/2014 4:15:57 AM PST by markomalley (Nothing emboldens the wicked so greatly as the lack of courage on the part of the good -- Leo XIII)
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To: markomalley

Substance abuse used to be largely self-limiting because in the absence of a cradle to grave welfare state, serious abusers ended up dead. Today we provide food stamps, housing, medical care, etc. to low performing adults. Not all of these are drug abusers, by any means, but it provides perfect cover and basic sustenance for the druggies. Who have proliferated. We have created a petri dish for dysfunction.


7 posted on 01/27/2014 4:16:17 AM PST by sphinx
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To: knarf

that is pretty close to my sort of 4-5 years of regular use. Not that much in the way of serious harm, except for the sin of all that wasted time when I should have been working harder. But I learned a lot about people and life and art and it was largely pleasant, unlike drunkenness, which seems to have much more serious negative results, and does not delight the mind, at least not my mind.


8 posted on 01/27/2014 4:29:43 AM PST by babble-on
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To: sphinx
Alcohol is 10x as bad for you as smoking pot is.

Cigarettes won't change your personality, but they will kill you dead with cancer.

And everyone in today's society is aware of the effects of alcohol and tobacco, it's not like it was years ago when “people didn't know better”.

Cannabis use will continue to happen regardless of the laws. The way that the laws are set up now, people are going to jail for behaviors that are really no worse than using the “legal” drugs on the market. We can either continue placing pot smokers in jail alongside violent offenders or we can change the laws so that we are not incarcerating the people who chose to smoke pot.

Is the argument really “pot use makes users unmotivated, so let's put them in jail?”

9 posted on 01/27/2014 4:40:51 AM PST by Ueriah
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To: babble-on

yep


10 posted on 01/27/2014 4:44:39 AM PST by knarf (I say things that are true .. I have no proof .. but they're true.)
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To: babble-on
PS

I used to say (THIS, btw is one of my pot induced knarfisms ... )

All the world's a stage, all the men and women in it, actors and actresses

And I am the choreographer.

THAT particular knarfism was developed during my seemingly many years of stoop hangin' ..... sittin' on a brownstone stoop on Beacon St or Comm Ave ... watchin' the world go by and analyzing it ... thinkin' I'd come up with the answer ... be VERY pleased with myself ... and smoke another joint.

11 posted on 01/27/2014 4:49:59 AM PST by knarf (I say things that are true .. I have no proof .. but they're true.)
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To: Ueriah

The argument is that pot fundamentally affects the brains of the users in a permanent form, is harmful physically (much more so than tobacco smoke) and has long-lasting effects.

And as for dangerous behavior while under the influence, 50% of the teenagers involved in serious injury auto accidents in Florida have marijuana in their system when tested.

If you think alcohol, which has a long social history, most of it positive, is bad, then why promote yet another drug which seems to have even worse effects? Don’t forget that we live in a society where what is legal is somehow considered to be good and even recommended, and the legalization of anything massively encourages its use (look at abortion).


12 posted on 01/27/2014 4:52:38 AM PST by livius
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To: livius

“The argument is that pot fundamentally affects the brains of the users in a permanent form, is harmful physically (much more so than tobacco smoke) and has long-lasting effects.”

I disagree with pot smoke being more harmful than tobacco smoke. Cigarettes have over 700 chemicals added to make them more addictive. Cigarettes will give you cancer and all sorts of respiratory illnesses. But cigarettes are “legal”. I think smoking cigarettes is a relatively dimwitted thing to do, but I’m not suggesting that we start throwing the people who choose to smoke cigarettes in jail.

“And as for dangerous behavior while under the influence, 50% of the teenagers involved in serious injury auto accidents in Florida have marijuana in their system when tested.”

I’m not advocating that people should smoke pot and hit the roads. What percentage of teenagers involved in serious auto accidents in FL or any other state involve alchohol? Alcohol has been proven to lead to all kinds of health problems. Yet no one is suggesting that we put people who choose to drink alcoholic beverages in prison.

Pot is less harmful for you than two out of the three “legal” drugs in the United States. (the third legal drug, caffeine, seems to have less damaging effects than cigarettes, booze, or pot.) Unlike cigarettes and alcohol, cannabis can actually be used to treat certain problems. I have suffered from grand mal seizures (I’m epileptic from birth) that pretty much cripple my life. They have tried all sorts of drugs, some which help a bit but have flaky side effects, some of which don’t. The synthetic drugs for my epilepsy (most recently Depakote) reduce the number of seizures that I have to a more reasonable amount (from multiple seizures a week to maybe one every other month). However, cannabis use COMPLETELY eliminates seizures from my life. A bit of research shows that it also helps people with cancer, glacoma, multiple scilorsis, and other ailments.

“If you think alcohol, which has a long social history, most of it positive, is bad, then why promote yet another drug which seems to have even worse effects?”

I would humbly suggest that alcohol has, largely, had a more negative impact on society than pot has.

“Don’t forget that we live in a society where what is legal is somehow considered to be good and even recommended, and the legalization of anything massively encourages its use (look at abortion).”

Eh, I kind of disagree with this. You can legalize heroin tommorrow and I don’t know anyone who will run out and try it that would not have been doing it otherwise. In fact, if alcohol has shown our society anything, it’s that if the people really want something, just having it made illegal will do nothing to stem the tide of demand (see Prohibition) and if anything trying to stem the tide of demand will create a thriving underground market.

Bottom line: a whole lot of people use cannabis regularly. The percentage of cannabis users is probably higher than you realize (ha ha). To have these people, who by and large are hurting no one (othen than, arguably, themselves) thrown in prison alongside violent offenders seems to be doing an injustice. People should have the right to choose what they wish to ingest in their bodies, whether it’s a joint, a beer, or a 64 ounce soda in New York City.


13 posted on 01/27/2014 5:27:13 AM PST by Ueriah
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To: Ueriah
I've posted a couple of replies already and I think I should add;

reefer in and of itself is harmless, in my opinion.

If anything, it is a fun drug, not physically addicting and if controlled, is no danger to self nor others.

MY comments above were taken from a lifestyle of pot smoking that lasted about 15 years.
Did I mention this was from around '65 - '80 ?

I haven't smoked since then and the reason is because I became a born again family man and I desired no adulterants to my thinking and behavior.

I'm not afraid of a giggling idiot, but an incorriceable drunk can be deadly.

14 posted on 01/27/2014 5:47:22 AM PST by knarf (I say things that are true .. I have no proof .. but they're true.)
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To: Ueriah

People have been using MJ in various forms for thousands of years.
MJ makes you laugh, eat to much and sleepy.
I think to many people here still believe ‘refer msdness’.


15 posted on 01/27/2014 6:26:14 AM PST by svcw (Not 'hope and change' but 'dopes in chains')
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To: livius

People have used MJ for thousands of years, it didn’t turn up out if nowhere in 1960.


16 posted on 01/27/2014 6:28:16 AM PST by svcw (Not 'hope and change' but 'dopes in chains')
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To: Ueriah
They have tried all sorts of drugs, some which help a bit but have flaky side effects, some of which don’t. The synthetic drugs for my epilepsy (most recently Depakote) reduce the number of seizures that I have to a more reasonable amount (from multiple seizures a week to maybe one every other month). However, cannabis use COMPLETELY eliminates seizures from my life. A bit of research shows that it also helps people with cancer, glacoma, multiple scilorsis, and other ailments.

nice try.... Anecdotal seizure cure. Yeah..... Just say you like to get twisted with the chronic and stop bullshitin

that's what really gets me is the faux justification pot smokers use. Look if you and your family and friends want to smoke pot.... Go for it because my kids will be competing for jobs against your pot smoking brood and I like my kids chances against stoners in any field of productive endeavor. Why do you think democrats and those in control want you and yours high on pot? Yeah, watch some football/basketball/baseball/soccer for hours at a time, get twisted on some pot and chill out while the men in control of their senses manipulate you and yours.

17 posted on 01/27/2014 7:11:41 AM PST by Dick Vomer (democrats are like flies, whatever they don't eat they sh#t on.)
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To: Dick Vomer

“nice try.... Anecdotal seizure cure. Yeah..... Just say you like to get twisted with the chronic and stop bullshitin”

So essentially you are calling me a liar because my first hand life experiances don’t support your narrative.

I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again: CANNABIS PREVENTS SEIZURES. I’ve suffered with epilepsy throughout my life, from about the age of five. The medications play hell on my body and mind. Cannabis works for me.

Do you also feel that people who smoke cigarettes and drink alcohol are not able to compete in the job field?

Is there any other morality that you would like to legislate? Maybe we can improve society if we court order church attendance?


18 posted on 01/27/2014 8:29:43 AM PST by Ueriah
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To: knarf

You got nothing done - except building friendships, fixing cars, making art, all worthy endeavors. Even absent that, who is to say that every moment of one’s life is to be productive in a sense that’s meaningful to others?


19 posted on 01/27/2014 8:38:43 AM PST by Jack of all Trades (Hold your face to the light, even though for the moment you do not see.)
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To: Jack of all Trades
Thanx .. I agree that everything I've done has been an asset of SOME sort to get me to where I am today.

I was waxing philosophically in this vein the other day with my son, and comparing/contrasting our "fatherness"

I like how he is with his 2 year old boy

20 posted on 01/27/2014 8:48:47 AM PST by knarf (I say things that are true .. I have no proof .. but they're true.)
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To: knarf

From my experience you can use alcohol in moderation, have few drunks feel good and go home. When people light up their intention is to get high, stoned, completely baked, gonzo. There is no moderation at all.


21 posted on 01/27/2014 8:59:00 AM PST by central_va (I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: markomalley

There’s a very good reason why they call it ‘dope’.


22 posted on 01/27/2014 9:03:11 AM PST by Hoodat (Democrats - Opposing Equal Protection since 1828)
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To: markomalley

the penalties for possession and use of pot causes far greater harm to the individual than the drug itself...

that is my stance, and my sole reason for legalization (or decriminalization)...


23 posted on 01/27/2014 9:06:59 AM PST by joe fonebone (a socialist is just a juvenile communist)
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To: central_va

From MY experience you can use reefer in moderation, smoke a couple of joints feel good and go home. When people
sit down at a bar to drink, their intention is to get high, stoned, completely baked, gonzo. There is no moderation at all


24 posted on 01/27/2014 9:20:14 AM PST by knarf (I say things that are true .. I have no proof .. but they're true.)
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To: knarf
From MY experience you can use reefer in moderation, smoke a couple of joints feel good and go home.

I've never seen anyone just smoke a little, they always go full bore. Again this is my experience only.

25 posted on 01/27/2014 9:22:30 AM PST by central_va (I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: central_va
What is full bore ?

Alcohol has about the same absorbtion rate as reefer, but stays a lot longer in the system and overloads the kidneys and other cleansing organs.

A reefer high is zapped when you see the red and blue lights in your mirror.

Drinkers try to talk without a slur ... smokers ask politely what they were being stopped for.

If no evidence in either car ... the smoker has a better chance of sleeping in his bed tonight.

There IS a difference

26 posted on 01/27/2014 9:28:09 AM PST by knarf (I say things that are true .. I have no proof .. but they're true.)
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To: knarf

I guess your a stoner. No talking to your guys.


27 posted on 01/27/2014 9:39:47 AM PST by central_va (I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: knarf

Sorry to be so short. I guess from my experience if yo have a few drinks you can socialize with others who may not be drinking, relate to people that have had a few drinks too. When i was in high school my friends got baked, and could only relate to the other stoned people. It isn’t a lot of fun hanging around stoned people on reefer when you are not stoned yourself. It is an exclusive club.


28 posted on 01/27/2014 9:50:05 AM PST by central_va (I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: central_va
drunk and high don't mix

You say tomayto, I say tomahto ... let's call the whole thing off

Are we less brothers because we disagree on how to recreate ?

29 posted on 01/27/2014 10:02:04 AM PST by knarf (I say things that are true .. I have no proof .. but they're true.)
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To: knarf

“Are we less brothers because we disagree on how to recreate ?”

+1


30 posted on 01/27/2014 10:06:10 AM PST by Ueriah
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To: central_va
I guess from my experience if yo have a few drinks you can socialize with others who may not be drinking...

A few drinks? That's called inebriation, even if the drinker doesn't realize it.

31 posted on 01/27/2014 10:53:59 AM PST by Ken H (What happens on the internet, stays on the internet.)
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To: Ken H

I weight 180# two gin and tonics and I am not drunk, Come on.


32 posted on 01/27/2014 11:12:10 AM PST by central_va (I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: markomalley
I think the answer to your question is found in 2290 actually (until the Catechism is rewritten to discuss "legal" pot use). 2290 and the article you posted.

In 2290, the word "drunkenness" appears and when present, is what makes alcohol consumption a grave matter.

The problem is, with pot, just as is described in the article and just as anyone who smoked/smokes it today or in recent times knows, literally one drag and you're high. It's not like alcohol where most normal people can have a sip of whiskey and not be drunk. One "inhalation" and you're high, period.

"High" to the point of being like you're drunk, and that's the connection. It's not like being drunk but you're just as incapacitated, in a general sense. Your coordination may not be impared but other faculties certainly are, and your perception of reality certainly is impared. Again, after only one hit.

That's the answer to your question. IMO. Just as it's a grave sin to get drunk, it's a grave sin to get high. And it's impossible to not get high on pot; this isn't the pot from the 60's or even 70's we're talking here. This is potent stuff.

With all that said, if one smokes it for a valid medical reason and it's legal to do so in one's state, that would not be a sin as it would be the same as taking any therapeutic drug with side effects. (By the way I personally support legalization for that purpose, but only that purpose and not vague, "depression" issues, abused as excuses to consume it like in California, but real, verifiable medical issues that are under a doctor's care and supervison)

Hope that helps.

33 posted on 01/27/2014 11:12:34 AM PST by FourtySeven (47)
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To: markomalley; windcliff; stylecouncilor
I don't recall who it was as the Mrs told me of the thread, that its poster definitely opposed marijuana use by society at large...
except by those Vietnam veterans who should be allowed in there own homes with their own spouses
to revisit some of that war's more exotic...aspects.
34 posted on 01/27/2014 11:40:01 AM PST by onedoug
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To: livius

Very good post.

For thousands of years Western civilization has always rejected pot and hashish, while having an alcohol based culture for health and entertainment and relaxation and socializing, those regions that preferred Cannabis to alcohol, look just like what one would expect them to look like, they look like what we see happen almost immediately to stoners, they become a sort of pod people so similar that it is is like something out of a science fiction movie.


35 posted on 01/27/2014 11:45:17 AM PST by ansel12 (Ben Bradlee -- JFK told me that "he was all for people's solving their problems by abortion".)
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To: windcliff; RaceBannon
Another pot smoker observation I have made; here at least NONE of them serve their country in the Armed Forces , none are inclined to enlist . It’s ‘not cool’ . This of course does not apply to the many aging Vietnam War veterans that enjoy a good puff , out in their secluded homesteads . They EARNED the right to relax any damn way they want to.

Re #34: Well met, Race.

36 posted on 01/27/2014 12:10:19 PM PST by onedoug
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To: Ueriah
So essentially you are calling me a liar because my first hand life experiances don’t support your narrative.

uh...yep

I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again: CANNABIS PREVENTS SEIZURES. I’ve suffered with epilepsy throughout my life, from about the age of five. The medications play hell on my body and mind. Cannabis works for me.

You can say it before and say it all you want... if you like smoking pot...go for it. Just don't come up with the "scientific" miracle cure for all that ails the world when half the pot that most people get is cut with who knows what or dusted with another compound to really "get the buzz, bra..'".

It's anecdotal evidence that the marijuana you smoke is what made you stop having seizures. What chemical in the literal buffet of chemicals in the marijuana you are purchasing is the x factor that makes you stop seizing and by what mechanism? Being that you somehow have 100% anticonvulsant success with the special blend that you've come upon. By all means, subject it to a double blinded study with reproducible results and publish your data..... if you can put remember to put down the bong, wipe the Cheetos from the front of your shirt and amble on down to the lab.

Do you also feel that people who smoke cigarettes and drink alcohol are not able to compete in the job field?

Well if you operate a gas pump or work with flammable chemicals,work in a hospital with pulmonary patients and high flow oxygen, grain silo or in a coal mine... ya just might want to put down the cig...just saying

I can't think of any job that might be performed better if you drank on the job...maybe you can enlighten me on that one...

Is there any other morality that you would like to legislate? Maybe we can improve society if we court order church attendance?

You can't legislate morality. That's what is so pathetic about the marijuana legalization scam. It's a way for your senses to be dulled and for you to be easier to control. Eh... but if that's what you want... free country, blah, blah, blah.. light up and make sure your kids do to. In fact I advocate everybody in your gene pool should get a 50 gallon barrel in the morning, stuff it full of some choice Chocolope or Super Silver Haze .. maybe get some of those nebulizer machines that asthmatic or emphysema patients use, hook up the face masks and go to town. Cause my family and my self are competing with you for jobs, opportunities and creating wealth... I like it when my competition is chilling out and worried if Taco Bell is having a sale on hard tacos.

37 posted on 01/27/2014 12:22:31 PM PST by Dick Vomer (democrats are like flies, whatever they don't eat they sh#t on.)
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To: FourtySeven

they should keep doctors out of the prescribing for marijuana. Then the state becomes the drug kingpin and the doctor is his street pusher.


38 posted on 01/27/2014 12:32:13 PM PST by Dick Vomer (democrats are like flies, whatever they don't eat they sh#t on.)
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To: Dick Vomer
You can't legislate morality.

Good to know. Then I can steal your car and get away with it, right?

39 posted on 01/27/2014 12:35:57 PM PST by Gamecock (If you like your constitution, you can keep your constitution. Period. (M.S.))
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To: livius

More than slight use causes brain changes.

Almost all violent offenders in prison just love their pot.

We don’t need it and it should be hard to get except for the cancer patients.


40 posted on 01/27/2014 12:38:01 PM PST by A CA Guy ( God Bless America, God Bless and keep safe our fighting men and women.)
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To: Gamecock
Good to know. Then I can steal your car and get away with it, right?

sure...come on over. It's the F 150 in the driveway. ..... just ignore the guy with the Sig P226 standing next to you as you climb into the cab without my permission. I won't even call the police, I'll let your family file a missing persons report.

Any other idiotic faux arguments? What does theft have to do with legislating moral choices? Yeah, it's morally wrong to steal my stuff. I don't need the law on the books to know that.

The law is for society to protect you, the thief, from me the victim from hunting you down, killing you, your family and then taking all your stuff out of revenge... you know? Old school justice. It sets the parameters of what is acceptable punishment for offenses against individuals.

If this is your argument for smoking pot, brother put the pipe down and drink some Mountain Dew. hahahahaha.

41 posted on 01/27/2014 12:47:18 PM PST by Dick Vomer (democrats are like flies, whatever they don't eat they sh#t on.)
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To: livius

” “gladdens the heart of man””

No it doesn;t


42 posted on 01/27/2014 12:49:50 PM PST by GeronL (Vote for Conservatives not for Republicans!)
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To: sphinx
users used to end up dead

The harsh but true reality. Now, we've become a "civilization" that expends most of its wealth enabling negative behaviors. It isn't sustainable.

43 posted on 01/27/2014 12:52:05 PM PST by grania
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To: Dick Vomer
Stealing is a moral issue. You can stick you head in the sand and come up with trite statements that we can't legislate morality, but the fact is that is what our laws do.

-Theft
-Perjury
-Arson
-Assault
-Murder

and on and on.

It is all a matter of the degree that we are willing to tolerate.

44 posted on 01/27/2014 1:03:47 PM PST by Gamecock (If you like your constitution, you can keep your constitution. Period. (M.S.))
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To: markomalley
I think every state should pass their own laws and we'll see what different approaches produce.

The federal government should continue to keep marijuana a Schedule I drug and do whatever they can to prosecute users and interfere with any state attempt to pass legislation that doesn't conform to federal policy, and overturn any that is passed.

45 posted on 01/27/2014 1:09:49 PM PST by tacticalogic
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To: markomalley

The legalized modern evils stem from a lack of hope which is eventually inevitably when people lose faith in God. And so they are told to have abortions because there is no providential God to take care of them. Before this, immoral sexual activity is oten engaged in because people don’t know that God’s Grace can strengthen them. Without Grace, marriages break down and divorce skyrockets, causing people to lose faith in marriage and the family. And so they say, why not go ahead and have gay marriage, what does it matter? Finally, without God’s Grace, life’s crosses are even heavier and really unbearable. So let’s legalize drugs, get stoned, and try to replace God’s Grace, prayer and contemplation, with the counterfeit, pseudo-mysticism of drug stupor. Through prayer and witness, we need to offer the hopeless, hope. They need to know that only the knowledge of God’s Love for us can give us lasting peace.

“My peace I leave you. My peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give it to you. Do not let your hearts be troubled or afraid.” -John 14:27

“To live without God is to start down a path that can only lead to despair. ... The people of hope are those who believe that God created them for a purpose and that He will provide for them.” -Blessed John Paul II


46 posted on 01/27/2014 2:40:38 PM PST by MDLION ("Trust in the Lord with all your heart" -Proverbs 3:5)
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To: Dick Vomer

“You can’t legislate morality.” - Dick Vomer

All law is an attempt to legislate morality. Even speeding laws issue out of “Thou shalt not kill”, with the thought that speeding endangers the lives of others. Even the twisted laws liberals sometimes promulgate issue out of their confused morality. In Muslim countries where they cut off your hand for stealing, they don’t have much of a problem with stealing. I don’t agree with such a draconian punishment but they are effectively legislating morality. Many of the women having legal abortions now, would tough it out and not have an illegal abortion if abortion were still illegal. Many did when abortion was illegal and probably most are glad they did. Abortion laws legislate morality.

Thank you for your service to our country and I’m sure we agree about much more than we disagree about. But I just disagree with the idea that morality can’t be legislated.

“If you can’t legislate morality, what can you legislate?”
-Fr.George William Rutler

“The law is the great teacher.” -John Cardinal O’Connor


47 posted on 01/27/2014 2:56:45 PM PST by MDLION ("Trust in the Lord with all your heart" -Proverbs 3:5)
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To: MDLION; Gamecock
I really wanted to think this reply through, so I went for a little mind clearing jog, run, puke... and the more I thought about what you and I understand is " the law" and "morality" are the difference between a free man and a man that is dependent on others to place him in the right relation with others. This isn't meant as a "put down" but please read on and I will gladly read your reply.

First Gamecock listed Theft

-Perjury

-Arson

-Assault

-Murder

as "laws" and how we are trying to legislate morality. I say that I don't need a law to know that theft, perjury, arson etc.. is wrong. I know morally that it is not in keeping with my morals. I can kick the cr@p out of someone because I "feel" like it or as a defensive measure to prevent an attack. What my internal moral compass tells me is more important than a law in which I may kill someone but "my intent" was in the first case immoral and unlawful and in the second case moral but unlawful depending on the jurisdiction and the whim of the judge/prosecutors/cops.

So you can legislate that I shouldn't kill but that in NO WAY prevents me from killing. My moral code, my compass tells me that taking someones life is wrong and I don't need a law to tell me that if someone were raping my wife or beating my daughters to a pulp to not kill them is unlawful and immoral.

You CAN'T legislate morality, you can only show by the laws you pass and are willing to obey where your morals lay. My kids don't need a law to tell them not to rob a store, rape a woman, kill their babies, not pay bills... they will do what is morally correct to them. The law is just society's way of emphasizing what the collective thinks is "moral" and "just" in the form of defining the moral question and giving the moral punishment for an offense.

In the field in combat, I can shoot an enemy soldier and I feel that as soldiers we are honor bound to follow our oaths to defend country and family. While I can come upon a wounded combatant that is offering to surrender, with my support group 100 yards behind me, all alone and take my knife out and slit his throat.... one is murder the other is combat and results in the death of my opponent. Only God knows my intent, he is the only one that knows what motivation lies in my heart that results in death... but in either case I can be called up for violations of the ROE and end up in Leavenworth making big rocks into little rocks. Morally I know what the correct path is, but legally is where the ambiguity is.

So we come to marijuana. The libs want to stop all to stop smoking (evil corporations make to much money) and don't mind marijuana (benevolent drug lords handing out presents to children). huh? If those that support drug use can't understand that this is a means to control and destroy your souls then by all means fire it up and don't bogart the joint.

48 posted on 01/27/2014 5:04:04 PM PST by Dick Vomer (democrats are like flies, whatever they don't eat they sh#t on.)
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To: Dick Vomer

Well, you “caught me” in that I don’t own a lab, I’m not a scientist, and I can’t tell you the scientific reason why I don’t have siezures when I smoke pot, but I do when I don’t.

All that I do know is, it works for me.

And from what I hear, it works for other people too.

And I don’t think it’s any particular “strain”, as all of them seem to work as an anti-convulsant.

When I spoke to my neurologist about it, yes, my neurologist, the guy who probably *does* have a lab and knows all the names of the whositis and the whatsits, he told me that yes, cannabis *does* prevent seizures, but it can hurt your lungs. Whereas the synthetic medication can prevent seizures, but it wrecks my kidneys and my liver and gives me horrible, horrible mood swings.

Did you know that cannabis was used, successfully, to treat many neurologicial disorders during the 6,000 years of human evolution prior to the criminalization of cannabis in the 1930s because hemp was competing with nylon?

So you can go ahead and be smug and self-righteous and try to assure yourself that pot smokers are all hanging out in their parents basement munching on chips and watching the game all day, and you can go ahead and try to convince yourself that our “lack of ambition” gives you a leg up in the workplace. The truth is, you would probably be rather surprised at the professional careers that we hold. I don’t have to “compete” with you or your kin for a good career, I’ve already got one.

And this *is* all about people trying to push thier personal code of ethics on other people through legislation. Don’t like pot? How about you don’t smoke it? Should you ban alcohol because it can effect productivity in the workplace? Should you ban cigarettes in case someone flicks a smoke at a gas pump while they are working?

I prefer a world where I am free to make my own decisions instead of having Big Government tell me what I can and cannot do.

By the way, if you view everyone else in this country as “competition for creating wealth for you and your family”, you might have larger issues than I.


49 posted on 01/28/2014 4:57:03 AM PST by Ueriah
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To: Dick Vomer

All laws are essentially a legislation of morality, from the Thou Shall Not Kill laws all the way to the current Thou Shall Not Drink A 64 Oz Soda In Manhattan.

“You CAN’T legislate morality, you can only show by the laws you pass and are willing to obey where your morals lay. My kids don’t need a law to tell them not to rob a store, rape a woman, kill their babies, not pay bills... they will do what is morally correct to them”

This basically says that you will ignore unjust laws and do what you feel is correct. That’s kind of where I am with the cannabis laws.

Interesting that you continually referance violence as your way of enforcing the laws that you would like to see enforced.

“So we come to marijuana. The libs want to stop all to stop smoking (evil corporations make to much money) and don’t mind marijuana (benevolent drug lords handing out presents to children).”

Odd, I haven’t heard of liberals or conservatives or anyone else suggesting that we stop all cigarette smoking. I think we have reached a point in our country where pretty much everyone *knows* that cigarette smoking is bad for you and will lead to cancer, emphysima, and a number of other extremely unpleasant conditions. Scientists can show you a pretty direct cause and effect, yet it’s still legal to smoke, despite all of the smoking related deaths it creates.

Here’s a bonus question for you, worth double points. How many people died from smoking pot last year? How about the year before that? How about in the last hundred years? The last thousand?

Answer: Zero people have ever died from smoking pot.


50 posted on 01/28/2014 5:12:41 AM PST by Ueriah
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