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Charismatics in Context
Ignitum Today ^ | 30 January 2014 | Matthew Olson

Posted on 01/31/2014 12:58:48 PM PST by matthewrobertolson

“Certain signs point to a weakening in the sense of mystery in those very liturgical celebrations that should be fostering that sense. It is, therefore, urgent that the authentic sense of the liturgy be revived in the Church. The liturgy...is a means of sanctification; it is a celebration of the Church's faith, and a means of transmitting the faith.” - Ecclesia in Europa
To be forthright, I have always found the “Charismatic” style, whether Protestant or Catholic, repugnant. The first time I witnessed it, I instinctively recoiled: I thought, “How is this pleasing to God?”

Praise is great (CCC #2639), but the gestures, the dancing, the circuses – they disturb me. In my view, Charismatics tend to, unwittingly or not, demote to the Mass to a kind of “religious entertainment,” which Pope Benedict XVI warned against. In response to this charge, proponents of these things almost always turn to 2 Samuel 6:14. Yes, King David danced to celebrate God. But did God commend him for this behavior? No. Did this even take place in the Temple, the formal place of worship? No. The writer surely did not mean to set some kind of liturgical precedent. He, instead, meant for us to better understand the importance of thankfulness and humility. But context be damned!

Perhaps I am so bothered because I am an American. I recognize that the individualistic culture of America, which is being exported to the rest of the world, has caused the rise of excessive indulgence and a disinterest in any sort of solemnity or sacrifice. Caput is the cilice and forgotten is Friday fasting. This mentality does not bode well for evangelization efforts.

There has been little upside to the Charismatic movement. While, in and of itself, it has been supported by popes for its purported ecumenical benefits, it has caused problems.

In South America, this has all been imported. These abuses were certainly not encouraged by the Spanish settlers. These foreign additions were only incorporated to appease the masses. Do they even help the Church? I think that that question is answered by the rapid and continuing rise of Pentecostalism. The new culture of the region promotes using the Church for self-gratification, though “[t]he purpose of the liturgy of the Church is not to placate people's desires or fears” (Ecclesia in Europa). After they get their highest high, parishioners leave and look for a new dealer. As one of my Mexican friends bluntly put it, “Hispanics like to use the Church as a crutch.” Take into account the gross negligence of area bishops, and you have a recipe for spiritual disaster. When Pope Alexander VI spread the Faith to the continent, I doubt that this is what he had in mind.

In Africa, meanwhile, dancing and jubilation are historically ingrained in cultural events, so it has a different set of circumstances that make them more acceptable. On top of that, Africans deserve a lot more leeway because of their demonstrated perseverance. But even there, cardinals have had to set up barriers in response to the movement.

Liturgical relativism leads to doctrinal relativism. That is the reality. Once barely-restrained liturgy is allowed, the practitioners of said liturgy usually like to see what else they can get away with. “If you give a mouse a cookie, he's going to want a glass of milk.”

There is a place for Charismatics in the Church – I'm not a bloodhound, just mindful of liturgy – but instead of shouting the equivalent of, “Throw your hands in the air and wave 'em like you just don't care!”, perhaps the clergy and the leaders of the movement should restore a deeper respect for our Lord.

“Liturgical celebrations need once more to put Jesus at the [center], so that we can be enlightened and guided by him” (Ecclesia in Europa).

---

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TOPICS: Catholic; Charismatic Christian; Religion & Culture; Worship
KEYWORDS: catholic; christian; church; jesus
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1 posted on 01/31/2014 12:58:48 PM PST by matthewrobertolson
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To: matthewrobertolson
But then, on the other hand:


2 posted on 01/31/2014 1:04:09 PM PST by mbarker12474
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To: matthewrobertolson; All

“which Pope Benedict XVI warned against.”


Which Pope Francis embraced:

“”Back at the end of the 1970s and the beginning of the 1980s, I had no time for” charismatics, the pope told reporters on the plane returning from Rio July 28. “Once, speaking about them, I said: ‘These people confuse a liturgical celebration with samba lessons!’”

“Now I regret it,” he said. “Now I think that this movement does much good for the church, overall.”

“I don’t think that the charismatic renewal movement merely prevents people from passing over to Pentecostal denominations,” Pope Francis said. “No! It is also a service to the church herself! It renews us.”

“The movements are necessary, the movements are a grace of the Spirit,” the pope added, speaking of ecclesial movements in general. “Everyone seeks his own movement, according to his own charism, where the Holy Spirit draws him or her.””

http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1303443.htm

That said, I think the Charismatic movement, whether Protestant or Papist, is dangerous.


3 posted on 01/31/2014 1:11:28 PM PST by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: matthewrobertolson

Let me know when you take on the Pope who thinks Islam and Muhammed lead you to the same place that Christianity and Jesus will. This video is direct evidence of the Pope (mis)leading people right to hell.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlqgL-hAC-M#t=89
“Sharing our experience in carrying that cross, to expel the illness within our hearts, which embitters our life: it is important that you do this in your meetings. Those that are Christian, with the Bible, and those that are Muslim, with the Quran. The faith that your parents instilled in you will always help you move on.”


4 posted on 01/31/2014 1:11:39 PM PST by bramps (Go West America!)
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To: matthewrobertolson

My time when active in the Catholic charismatic renewal encouraged me toward Catholic orthodoxy. My parents were “cafeteria Catholics,” encouraged by priests and self-important laity alike. It was finding the renewal that introduced me to folks who loved God, loved the faith, and loved the Church, and wished to conform themselves to the mind of Christ as taught to us by the Church.


5 posted on 01/31/2014 2:01:13 PM PST by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: matthewrobertolson

Maybe someday I’ll be concerned about whether everyone else prays the way I think they should ... or maybe I’ll use that mental energy to memorize “Beowulf.”


6 posted on 01/31/2014 2:12:52 PM PST by Tax-chick (... for the good of all of us, except the ones who are dead ...)
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To: matthewrobertolson

I remember when the parish I grew up in got a Charismatic pastor. I moved away from that parish, but discovered years later that the pastor was in prison. He turned out to be the worst homosexual predator in the Diocese of Los Angeles.


7 posted on 01/31/2014 2:37:59 PM PST by Jeff Chandler (Obamacare: You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs.)
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To: Tax-chick
Maybe someday I’ll be concerned about whether everyone else prays the way I think they should

That's not what this article is about at all.

We believe that the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is sacred, and do not wish to see it devolve into psychotic buffoonery.

8 posted on 01/31/2014 2:40:34 PM PST by Jeff Chandler (Obamacare: You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs.)
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To: matthewrobertolson

The Charismatics in our parish have never met a government handout they didn’t like. I’m fine with their huge families, but not at my expense.


9 posted on 01/31/2014 4:58:36 PM PST by goodwithagun (My gun has killed fewer people than Ted Kennedy's car.)
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To: matthewrobertolson
but instead of shouting the equivalent of, “Throw your hands in the air and wave 'em like you just don't care!”, perhaps the clergy and the leaders of the movement should restore a deeper respect for our Lord.

As opposed to what should be the Catholic mantra, 'we don't care what God says, we made up our own religion...'

I can't really tell if so many Catholics are so ignorant of the scriptures, or if it is willful deception...It's certainly one or the other...

Psa 134:2 Lift up your hands in the sanctuary, and bless the LORD.

10 posted on 01/31/2014 5:15:24 PM PST by Iscool
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To: Jeff Chandler
I remember when the parish I grew up in got a Charismatic pastor. I moved away from that parish, but discovered years later that the pastor was in prison. He turned out to be the worst homosexual predator in the Diocese of Los Angeles.

What Parish is he at now???

11 posted on 01/31/2014 5:18:25 PM PST by Iscool
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To: goodwithagun
The Charismatics in our parish have never met a government handout they didn’t like. I’m fine with their huge families, but not at my expense.

So when you give up contraception God doesn't take care of all them babies after all, eh???

12 posted on 01/31/2014 5:20:23 PM PST by Iscool
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To: matthewrobertolson

I had attended a charismatic church early in my walk. The one thing I found disturbing was the “look at me, see how holy I am”. If they are going through the motions to impress other people, He is not impressed.

I sought the Lord
He sent a Dove

yet

I sought the Dove
It flew away.

Seek ye first.


13 posted on 01/31/2014 7:08:52 PM PST by Fred Hayek (The Democratic Party is now the operational arm of the CPUSA)
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To: Iscool

God takes care of all His children. What is your point, that failure to use chemicals for birth control means God doesn’t love the babies?


14 posted on 01/31/2014 7:16:25 PM PST by goodwithagun (My gun has killed fewer people than Ted Kennedy's car.)
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To: matthewrobertolson

2 Samuel 6:14-16 (AMP)
14 And David danced before the Lord with all his might, clad in a linen ephod [a priest’s upper garment].
15 So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the Lord with shouting and with the sound of the trumpet.
16 As the ark of the Lord came into the City of David, Michal, Saul’s daughter [David’s wife], looked out of the window and saw King David leaping and dancing before the Lord, and she despised him in her heart.

Some people love the Lord, and others despise those that do. Nothing new under the sun.

Why don’t we just leave it to God to know what is in someone’s heart.


15 posted on 02/01/2014 11:44:16 AM PST by Kandy Atz ("Were we directed from Washington when to sow and when to reap, we should soon want for bread.")
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To: Kandy Atz
You obviously didn't read the post.

From the article:

"In response to this charge, proponents of these things almost always turn to 2 Samuel 6:14. Yes, King David danced to celebrate God. But did God commend him for this behavior? No. Did this even take place in the Temple, the formal place of worship? No. The writer surely did not mean to set some kind of liturgical precedent. He, instead, meant for us to better understand the importance of thankfulness and humility. But context be damned!"
16 posted on 02/01/2014 12:10:48 PM PST by matthewrobertolson
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To: matthewrobertolson

http://christianity.about.com/od/denominations/p/christiantoday.htm

The post is an attack on the Charismatics of the world, and God’s Word says in Scripture “the only unforgivable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit”....opposing the Holy Spirit is denying the book of ACTS and the experiences in the Upper Room. Those are as real today as they were then.

There are 269 million Pentecostals today, who are dedicated to God, and their worship is set forth in Psalms 146-150. That is how God wants to be worshipped.

DAVID was right to dance before the Lord as an act of Worship. God also said David was the ‘apple of his ey’e...why was that? He respected God’s authority, Saul, and obeyed the worship rules. Yes, he made tremendous mistakes, and always he also repented.

That does not mean other forms of worship are not valid, and each can show how he wants to worship. However Praise and Prayer are more effective than any of it. The Word say “obedience is better than sacrifice.” Jesus said those he forgave the most would love him the most....so those good people who are critical of others way of worship would be wise to keep it to themselves to avoid God’s wrath.

Scripture also says “the effectual FERVENT prayer of a righteous man avails much”. Of course all must be done in love, or it’s in vain. Charismatics are from all denominations, in fact Notre Dame had an outpouring over 50 yrs ago that started a huge revival, and added millions to the Charismatic movement for 25 yrs. Azuza Street in San Francisco was an outpouring on America not seen before at the start of the 19th century...those things do not happen without the HOLY SPIRIT reviving his Church, the church is NOT a building but those who follow him with Christ at the helm.
There is a NEW revival coming, an outpouring of the Holy Spirit that has not been seen since the day of Pentecost.


17 posted on 02/01/2014 12:45:16 PM PST by Kackikat
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To: matthewrobertolson
Actually, I did read the article. I posted the full verse for that very reason.

Its so tiresome when modern day pharisees feel the need to "correct" others. We have freedom in Christ. Some people prefer to worship in a morgue - possibly the author. Some would prefer to express their love of God more openly. Some are just obedient to the move of the Spirit. There is nothing wrong with any approach as long as God is the focus and/or the author. We are no longer under religious bondage, but SHOULD live under God's Grace. And if you look around, God likes variety.

Again, God knows what is in the heart. This line from the piece says all you need to know:

To be forthright, I have always found the “Charismatic” style, whether Protestant or Catholic, repugnant. The first time I witnessed it, I instinctively recoiled: I thought, “How is this pleasing to God?”

Whether the author finds it repugnant or not matters not. ITS NOT ABOUT HIM! That is the flaw with this diatribe. Try reading John's description of Heaven. It aint a quiet place of people sitting quietly in pews, doing their weekly penance while waiting to be dismissed in time to see the game.

Psalm 149:1-5 (AMP)

1 PRAISE THE Lord! Sing to the Lord a new song, praise Him in the assembly of His saints!

2 Let Israel rejoice in Him, their Maker; let Zion's children triumph and be joyful in their King!

3 Let them praise His name in chorus and choir and with the [single or group] dance; let them sing praises to Him with the tambourine and lyre!

4 For the Lord takes pleasure in His people; He will beautify the humble with salvation and adorn the wretched with victory.

5 Let the saints be joyful in the glory and beauty [which God confers upon them]; let them sing for joy upon their beds.

18 posted on 02/01/2014 12:46:25 PM PST by Kandy Atz ("Were we directed from Washington when to sow and when to reap, we should soon want for bread.")
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To: matthewrobertolson

As for lifting Holy Hands unto the Lord, it is throughout the Bible, as this link gives those scriptures:

http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Bible-Verses-About-Lifting-Hands/


19 posted on 02/01/2014 12:51:52 PM PST by Kackikat
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To: matthewrobertolson
But context be damned!

Why do you guys insist on bringing the scriptures into your religion when it condemns just about everything your religion puts out???

Psa 149:1 Praise ye the LORD. Sing unto the LORD a new song, and his praise in the congregation of saints.
Psa 149:2 Let Israel rejoice in him that made him: let the children of Zion be joyful in their King.
Psa 149:3 Let them praise his name in the dance: let them sing praises unto him with the timbrel and harp.

According to God, the Pentecostals are doing it right and your religion is doing it wrong...Catholics, search the scriptures if you want to know what God says...Don't take your religion's word for it...

20 posted on 02/01/2014 3:01:24 PM PST by Iscool
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To: Iscool; Kackikat; Kandy Atz
These quotes from the Psalms are not connected to liturgy. They refer to worship OUTSIDE of the Temple.

Protestants are, unfortunately, quite disconnected from history, both doctrinal and liturgical.

Meanwhile, Catholics use stone altars, as the Jews did. Priests also ritually wash their hands before celebrating the Sacrifice, in accordance with commands from the Old Testament (Exodus 30:17-21, Psalm 26:6). Even the use of holy water at parish entrances has its roots in Judaism. Before entering the Temple, Jews were required to undergo immersion in a mikveh (ritual bath). And there's so much more!

The Book of Revelation outlines the Mass!
21 posted on 02/01/2014 4:14:29 PM PST by matthewrobertolson
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To: matthewrobertolson

Psalms 150 second line “Praise God In His Sanctuary”, and if his Temple is not his sanctuary then what is...We are the Sanctuary and no building will ever be the Sanctuary of God except in the people who come to worship there, so don’t think you know what God is, what he wants, and where he wants it. God is the same yesterday, to day and forever.
Mans Liturgy is NOT all there is, in fact it falls short of God’s intentions.

Jesus came to deliver us from the curse of the law. What law? The ceremonial law....Jesus was the Passover Lamb once and for all....the Old Testament no longer applies to us. So for all it’s pomp and circumstance, and I have no objection to whatever people want to practice as religion, but it has nothing to do with God’s Grace, and the HOLY SPIRIT and Salvation.


22 posted on 02/01/2014 4:30:18 PM PST by Kackikat
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To: matthewrobertolson
Seriously? You are arguing that the RCC is under the Law? That's not something to brag about - its ignorance of God's Word.

Meanwhile, Catholics use stone altars, as the Jews did. Priests also ritually wash their hands before celebrating the Sacrifice, in accordance with commands from the Old Testament (Exodus 30:17-21, Psalm 26:6). Even the use of holy water at parish entrances has its roots in Judaism. Before entering the Temple, Jews were required to undergo immersion in a mikveh (ritual bath). And there's so much more!

Do you keep the ENTIRE Law? Do you circumcise? Do you keep all the food laws, all the sacrifices and offerings? Because if you miss it in even one area...

James 2:10 (AMP)

10 For whosoever keeps the Law [as a] whole but stumbles and offends in one [single instance] has become guilty of [breaking] all of it.

Please read this carefully - Christians (those that place their faith in Jesus) have died to the law - it has no jurisdiction over the dead.

Galatians 2:19-20 (AMP)

19 For I through the Law [under the operation of the curse of the Law] have [in Christ's death for me] myself died to the Law and all the Law's demands upon me, so that I may [henceforth] live to and for God.

20 I have been crucified with Christ [in Him I have shared His crucifixion]; it is no longer I who live, but Christ (the Messiah) lives in me; and the life I now live in the body I live by faith in (by adherence to and reliance on and complete trust in) the Son of God, Who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

Galatians 3:24-25 (AMP)

24 So that the Law served [to us Jews] as our trainer [our guardian, our guide to Christ, to lead us] until Christ [came], that we might be justified (declared righteous, put in right standing with God) by and through faith.

25 But now that the faith has come, we are no longer under a trainer (the guardian of our childhood).

Religious bondage is a fool's errand when God's Grace is freely and abundantly given. And besides...

Colossians 2:20-23 (AMP)

20 If then you have died with Christ to material ways of looking at things and have escaped from the world's crude and elemental notions and teachings of externalism, why do you live as if you still belong to the world? [Why do you submit to rules and regulations?—such as]

21 Do not handle [this], Do not taste [that], Do not even touch [them],

22 Referring to things all of which perish with being used. To do this is to follow human precepts and doctrines.

23 Such [practices] have indeed the outward appearance [that popularly passes] for wisdom, in promoting self-imposed rigor of devotion and delight in self-humiliation and severity of discipline of the body, but they are of no value in checking the indulgence of the flesh (the lower nature). [Instead, they do not honor God but serve only to indulge the flesh.]

23 posted on 02/01/2014 5:27:14 PM PST by Kandy Atz ("Were we directed from Washington when to sow and when to reap, we should soon want for bread.")
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To: Kandy Atz; Kackikat; matthewrobertolson
Seriously? You are arguing that the RCC is under the Law? That's not something to brag about - its ignorance of God's Word.

They even admit it (from that link)

In addition, the Mass is another sign of the Christian fulfillment of the Law (Matthew 5:17-18), because it is in harmony with ancient Jewish traditions. We use stone altars, as the Jews did. Priests also ritually wash their hands before celebrating the Sacrifice, in accordance with commands from the Old Testament (Exodus 30:17-21, Psalm 26:6). Even the use of holy water at parish entrances has its roots in Judaism. Before entering the Temple, Jews were required to undergo immersion in a mikveh (ritual bath).

And then, following some of the links from there, it's interesting to see all the divisions in their religion just in the liturgy alone...Here's one example where they attack the Tridentine form of the mass...

Unfortunately, within this liturgical framework, there is a minority that puts its personal preferences above the judgment of the Church. There are some that insist on identifying only with the Tridentine form (which, by the way, was not even promulgated until 1570, despite its proponents’ focus on antiquity) and push willful neglect of the perfectly-valid Novus Ordo, and there are some that advocate the reverse. Both sides are wrong – both forms are right. These factions do nothing but needlessly scare off potential converts that seek a unified message.

Following the old Jewish Laws will send everyone who does so to Hell...

24 posted on 02/01/2014 6:44:25 PM PST by Iscool
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To: matthewrobertolson; Iscool; daniel1212
"Protestants are, unfortunately, quite disconnected from history, both doctrinal and liturgical."

??? Meanwhile, Catholics use stone altars, as the Jews did.???

Stone altars? Perhaps a bit more study of the OT in regards to those could be in order about now.

This holds significance.

Now let that sink in, for it is the word of God.

Then tell us;
Which temple altars to emulate? Those of Solomon's temple? Herod's perhaps? Where are those now? There are lessons there too, for one and all, for His words ring forever. Can you hear Him?

We are not called to renew what the Hebrews were directed to do as per animal sacrifice. That's not in the contract (Testament rather?) given to you or I (I take it you are not born a Hebrew?).

So what was that you were saying, again? oh, about "holy water" too. uh-huh. consecrated water, isn't it? Prayed over by a priest.

Well ok, but how about better, more significant and less RC priesthood "majic" would be to recall John's (The Baptist's) baptism, to help bring that fresher to mind (buried with Christ) for the individual. Sealed, buried, washed, risen anew unto life in Him.

Remembering one's own baptism, one well could let that (splash of 'holy' water) be portion as to refresh, not to re-baptise, but to refresh the memory, though only Christ Himself can cleanse us of *some sort* of the "dirt" which gathers on our feet, though we can minister to one another in this also (just not as He alone can, as Jesus himself told Peter, directly).

One can mention ritual washings, but for Christians, as Christ Himself spoke of in regard to His own undergoing baptism -- He did so "to fulfill all righteousness". This too, is significant.

Go to church, gather together, but leave the temple and systems behind. They had run their course, yet could not subdue the sin, only cover for it until it was not much of a covering at all, not nearly enough. It had become as empty, all but entirely used up, for the sacrifices effected no lasting change --- or --- not enough.

Something had to give. It wasn't working anymore. (was never meant or intended to? not intended as the "end result" sought for under the Covenant given unto the children of Israel, for the Lord delights not in sacrifice, those became to Him a stench instead of sweet savor) Events had run the courses to which they had long been set. John the Baptist knew. It was what he was sent for, as forerunner. One can scarcely retain repentance until one has died to sin (even ceremoniously).

It is there where our new life in Christ begins. We must die (to this world), correct? Christ spoke, then demonstrated. Paul helped to explain, both doing so much rather through encouragement, than by force or compulsion.

Are you wanting to renew a temple system, or to reach for reconciliation with the Creator through the sacrifice of the Son, with access opened to many by way of Spirit?

In effort to reconnect with history, doctrinal and "liturgical" as you put it --- please --- this history goes back to Abraham, not just back to when Damasus[1] first seized office of bishop of Rome, by force (and even murder).

Know what it is that one is aiming to returning to. Simply following --- and repeating apologetic, using one's own added polemics may help one to reach a destination, yet after arriving, finding one has carried their own troubles along with them.

In some circles, that's what's called "pulling a geographic" (change).

It matters little if this change of scenery include outlook, philosophy, even "religious" practice. The end will likely be the same. After a while -- it just won't work anymore. There has to be a deeper change. It can take decades of one's life to discover this...many have trod those boards.

If there has been for you already, change deep enough to be abiding...then so be it, but I've not been able to detect for certainty that there has been (I could very, very, wrong in this regard).

Nonetheless, we none of us can be wrong as to one entirely crucial requirement.
It is this to which I challenge any who seek, to seek fulfilled.

_________________________________________________________

[1] see the bottom portion of this post for reference, particularly if you desire to "answer protestants"

25 posted on 02/01/2014 9:17:00 PM PST by BlueDragon ("the fans are staying away from the ballpark...in droves" Yogi Berra)
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To: matthewrobertolson; presently no screen name; metmom; boatbums; redleghunter; ...
Protestants are, unfortunately, quite disconnected from history, both doctrinal and liturgical. ...Priests also ritually wash their hands before celebrating the Sacrifice

So being connected to Scripture makes one disconnected, while not going by Scripture makes on connect. How typically Roman. Now show us even one place in the entire NT where the Holy Spirit titles the NT pastor of a church "priest" (hiereus) except by inclusion as part of the general priesthood of all believers, with Christ being the high priest.

Then show us even one place where a NT pastor is uniquely engaging in sacrifice by changing bread into human flesh and distributing it to the people to get life by, thus confirming the Catholic interpretation of the Lord's supper.

Then show us that the church began under the premise that the stewards of Scripture are the authoritative infallible authority on Truth, so that what it affirms or rejects must be submitted to.

Then show us even one place in the entire Bible with its 100+ prayers where anyone except pagans prayed to anyone in Heaven except the Lord.

Then show us even one place in all the epistles to the churches or in the Lords' word to the churches where they are told to look to Peter as their supreme infallible head in Rome, or even to remember the "Holy Father" in prayer, or where Peter even refers to himself as anything more than "an elder," "an apostle," "a servant."

Then show us even one place where there was any successor to an apostle, as James, (Acts 12:2,3) other than for Judas to maintain the original number of the 12 (cf. Rv. 21:14) and being elected by casting lots, as he was.

Then show us even one place where infants were sprinkled in recognition of proxy faith making them formally justified by interior holiness.

Then show us one place where the traditions the apostles referred to was that of ancient legends such as the Assumption (which even lacks early evidence), and Rome teaches now, rather than being contemporary teaching that could be and normally would be written down.

Be forewarned that resorting to the usual egregious extrapolation RCs engage in while trying to support traditions of men by Holy Writ has been refuted already.

Meanwhile i will show you that Scripture is the assured Word of God and transcendent standard for obedience and testing and establishing truth claims, as it is abundantly evidenced.

Meanwhile, the problem is both that as with priests, Rome not only misappropriates things from Judaism, but also has done much the same with paganism.

"We are told in various ways by Eusebius [Note 16], that Constantine, in order to recommend the new religion to the heathen, transferred into it the outward ornaments to which they had been accustomed in their own. It is not necessary to go into a subject which the diligence of Protestant writers has made familiar to most of us. The use of temples, and these dedicated to particular saints, and ornamented on occasions with branches of trees; incense, lamps, and candles; votive offerings on recovery from illness; holy water; asylums; holydays and seasons, use of calendars, processions, blessings on the fields; sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure, the ring in marriage, turning to the East, images at a later date, perhaps the ecclesiastical chant, and the Kyrie Eleison [Note 17], are all of pagan origin, and sanctified by their adoption into the Church. {374}

Greeks dedicate images to devils, and call them gods; but we to True God Incarnate, and to God's servants and friends, who drive away the troops of devils." [Note 18] Again, "As the holy Fathers overthrew the temples and shrines of the devils, and raised in their places shrines in the {377} names of Saints and we worship them, so also they overthrew the images of the devils, and in their stead raised images of Christ, and God's Mother, and the Saints. And under the Old Covenant, Israel neither raised temples in the name of men, nor was memory of man made a festival; for, as yet, man's nature was under a curse, and death was condemnation, and therefore was lamented, and a corpse was reckoned unclean and he who touched it; but now that the Godhead has been combined with our nature, as some life-giving and saving medicine, our nature has been glorified and is trans-elemented into incorruption. Wherefore the death of Saints is made a feast, and temples are raised to them, and Images are painted ... - (Chapter 8. Application of the Third Note of a True Development—Assimilative Power, John Henry Newman, a cardinal by Pope Leo III in 1879; http://www.newmanreader.org/works/development/chapter8.html)

26 posted on 02/01/2014 11:18:26 PM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: sitetest

http://arlingtonrenewal.org/duquesne-weekend


27 posted on 02/01/2014 11:26:34 PM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
That said, I think the Charismatic movement, whether Protestant or Papist, is dangerous.

I have to agree with you on that. Too many times ecstasy, wild abandon, kicking up yer heels, shouting, dancing and such DETRACTS from real worship and replaces it with human-generated actions instead of coming from the Holy Spirit. I've been in worship services which are not "Charismatic" but the presence of the Lord is palpable and "lifting up holy hands" while singing praise music just happens without even thinking about it. Contrived and expected acts hoping to get the Spirit don't usually result in His genuine presence being there. It's not something that can be reserved or on call at a moments notice.

28 posted on 02/02/2014 12:00:12 AM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: Iscool

“Following the old Jewish Laws will send everyone who does so to Hell”

My point exactly...I said “Jesus came to redeem us from the curse of the law....ceremonial law, that is the old Jewish Laws.


29 posted on 02/02/2014 3:30:29 AM PST by Kackikat
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To: boatbums
I have to agree with you on that. Too many times ecstasy, wild abandon, kicking up yer heels, shouting, dancing and such DETRACTS from real worship and replaces it with human-generated actions instead of coming from the Holy Spirit.

I attended a Pentecostal church for about 6 months and visited a couple others and none of that Holy Roller stuff took place...I've seen what you are referring to on tv and I agree with your assessment...

30 posted on 02/02/2014 6:45:02 AM PST by Iscool
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To: Kandy Atz; BlueDragon; Iscool
If you're wanting to actually learn the Catholic position on the Law and what "fulfillment" of it means (which, obviously, I have been so far unable to lay out in depth here) and not just wanting to throw around unsubstantiated polemics, see this article:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/3098023/posts
31 posted on 02/02/2014 7:05:24 AM PST by matthewrobertolson
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To: Kackikat
There is a NEW revival coming, an outpouring of the Holy Spirit that has not been seen since the day of Pentecost.

Scripture to back that up is found where??

32 posted on 02/02/2014 8:26:56 AM PST by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith....)
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To: matthewrobertolson
1 Corinthians 6:19-20 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

Catholics are disconnected from God if they think that God lives in a church or a eucharist.

Christ dwells in our hearts through faith, making our bodies the temple of the Holy Spirit. Nobody needs to go anywhere to *meet* with God. God is within every believer.

If anyone thinks He lives somewhere else, in all likelihood He does and it's not in that person's heart.

33 posted on 02/02/2014 8:33:16 AM PST by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith....)
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To: Iscool; boatbums

I’ve actually attended Charismatic churches and *revival* meetings where that sort of stuff took place and the crowd is most definitely worked to achieve the effect.


34 posted on 02/02/2014 8:40:03 AM PST by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith....)
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To: matthewrobertolson
What's this?

What fulfillment? Christ's own fulfillment of it? Is that what you mean? BESIDES --- I did not speak of "fulfillment of Law" as you put it, but rather was pointing towards Christ's own words as to fulfillment of all righteousness.

Neither did I ask "what the [Roman] Catholic position" was, pertaining to either.

The link you offer for a finding out of that, in regards to "Law" anyway(?) --- leads to one of your own articles --- which cannot help but be not exactly what the [Roman] Catholic "position" is in regards to "Law" and it's fulfillment, but rather instead is your own discourse upon the subject! That is, unless you speak for the [Roman] Catholic ecclesiastical community. Do you? Yes -- or no.

If perhaps not infallibly, then by all means let us proceed with that understanding held somewhat loosely in mind, for doing so could make this easier on all of us.

If there is anything in what I wrote to you which may be less than clear as to where I myself may stand, as to what fulfillment of the Law righteousness meant in context in which I placed it -- please feel free to ask. Perhaps we could even -- find some ready agreement there.

For it was Christ who submitted Himself to the Baptism of John, as recounted in Matthew 3:15 "Let it be so now; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness", with my intended own meanings, the very reasons I make mention of this, being contained in my previous comment.

If you could provide some indication or further sense to me that you grasped the significance of what was laid out there (in that note), then perhaps we could go on from there..?

I mean here also, after which it can be established that you understand what it is I had said, even in regard to Exodus 2:25 also then we can possibly get around to discussion concerning [Roman] "Catholic position", as to fulfillment of "the Law" (as I said "possibly").

Until that time may I suggest that we all of us, one and all (myself included) do not delude ourselves if we take up tools to "work" stones into altars --- that after having done so mistake our own handiwork for being fitting altars to make sacrifice unto God upon.

By which I mean -- let us again here not mistake ourselves for being Him, or much speaking for Him unless we be prophets raised up by His own hand, not our own, nor running too far ahead and beyond whatever commission we may have received from Him.

Meanwhile, we can talk, we can speak, yet again taking care to not mistake our own understanding for being = His Word.

Is this too much to ask?

35 posted on 02/02/2014 8:49:47 AM PST by BlueDragon ("the fans are staying away from the ballpark...in droves" Yogi Berra)
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To: Kandy Atz
I think...that we are very much in agreement.

The scripture passages which you brought, I do see applied much the same as I think you intended them to be.

Basis Christianity, room 304?

36 posted on 02/02/2014 9:09:45 AM PST by BlueDragon ("the fans are staying away from the ballpark...in droves" Yogi Berra)
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To: matthewrobertolson

Do you consider Paul’s letters polemics?

From your link, it seems that you may not yet have a revelation of the New Covenant. Read carefully Paul’s letters, especially Galatians, Ephesians, and Colossians. This is the greatest revelation ever given mankind. I could cite a plethora of scriptures on the Believers’ position, but you need to get free from legalism before you can enjoy relationship.

Jesus did not manifest in the flesh, suffer both physically and spiritually, setting aside centuries of religious tradition and law THAT NOBODY COULD KEEP EXCEPT JESUS, and that made nobody righteous, to set up yet another cumbersome religious system that traps people yet again in guilt, legalism, and condemnation. Its a very sad existence that plagues most of organized Christianity.

Rightly divide the Word - If you will have ears to hear this message, it will forever free you from legalism and ignite your fellowship with God.

Matthew 5:20 (KJV)
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. >>>> This was an UNOBTAINABLE standard. Jesus said these harsh sayings in Matt 5 to provoke the Jews to realize they MUST HAVE a Savior. Also, to make them realize that any attempt on their own was FUTILE. Note that these harsh sayings - cut off hand, pluck out eye, exceed the Pharisees in righteousness, are NOT repeated in the letters to the Church.

Romans 3:20 (AMP)
20 For no person will be justified (made righteous, acquitted, and judged acceptable) in His sight by observing the works prescribed by the Law. For [the real function of] the Law is to make men recognize and be conscious of sin [not mere perception, but an acquaintance with sin which works toward repentance, faith, and holy character]. >>>> Paul confirms that the Law existed to expose sin, to make men realize that they HAD to have a Savior.

Romans 3:27-28 (AMP)
27 Then what becomes of [our] pride and [our] boasting? It is excluded (banished, ruled out entirely). On what principle? [On the principle] of doing good deeds? No, but on the principle of faith.
28 For we hold that a man is justified and made upright by faith independent of and distinctly apart from good deeds (works of the Law). [The observance of the Law has nothing to do with justification.] >>>> There is NOTHING you can do to earn Salvation. Jesus did it all. See Abraham, he was declared righteous because he BELIEVED God before the Law even existed. (Genesis 15:6, Romans 4:1-3) It is our faith that pleases the Father. (Hebrews 11:6)

What about the Law for Believers?

1 Timothy 1:8-10 (AMP)
8 Now we recognize and know that the Law is good if anyone uses it lawfully [for the purpose for which it was designed],
9 ****Knowing and understanding this: that the Law is not enacted for the righteous (the upright and just, who are in right standing with God),**** but for the lawless and unruly, for the ungodly and sinful, for the irreverent and profane, for those who strike and beat and [even] murder fathers and strike and beat and [even] murder mothers, for manslayers,
10 [For] impure and immoral persons, those who abuse themselves with men, kidnapers, liars, perjurers—and whatever else is opposed to wholesome teaching and sound doctrine >>>> The Law is not for the righteous. It is for the ungodly to recognize sin and repent! The Believer was declared righteous by faith - past tense. (Romans 5) There is now no condemnation, and the law of spirit and life has freed Believers from the law of sin and death. (Romans 8)

God deals with His children differently under the New Covenant. Are you a child of God? (Romans 8:13-15)

Hebrews 10:16-17 (AMP)
16 This is the agreement (testament, covenant) that I will set up and conclude with them after those days, says the Lord: I will imprint My laws upon their hearts, and I will inscribe them on their minds (on their inmost thoughts and understanding),
17 He then goes on to say, And their sins and their lawbreaking I will remember no more.

Hebrews 8:10 (AMP)
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will imprint My laws upon their minds, even upon their innermost thoughts and understanding, and engrave them upon their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

What “laws” are imprinted?

John 13:34-35 (AMP)
34 I give you a new commandment: that you should love one another. Just as I have loved you, so you too should love one another.
35 By this shall all [men] know that you are My disciples, if you love one another [if you keep on showing love among yourselves].

1 John 3:23 (AMP)
23 And this is His order (His command, His injunction): that we should believe in (put our faith and trust in and adhere to and rely on) the name of His Son Jesus Christ (the Messiah), and that we should love one another, just as He has commanded us.

These two verses are not talking about Leviticus 19:18 - love your neighbor as you love yourself. How many folks truly love themselves the way Jesus loves them? I know it was a struggle for me. This refers to a divine love. The God-kind of love frees you from all bitterness, guilt, false humility, strife, pride, selfishness etc. When you love this way, you will obviously not steal, kill, lie etc. No moral system, no religious laws, can be more pure and unselfish than Love (Agape), the God-kind of love. It is Holy Spirit driven love. And Love is a wonderful motivator.

****The law tells you to love your wife, The Holy Spirit dwelling in you shows you how.****

Let that message sink in. Loving out of the flesh is impossible. With the Holy Spirit, Love is not only possible, its enjoyable! Forgiveness is possible. Giving is possible. The Blessing flows through you so you can now be a Blessing to the world. The HS empowers you to do God’s Perfect Will for you, and its not work, its LIFE! Its Blessing, its Joy, its Love! Its ZOE, the Life and Light of God, flowing from the vine through the branch and producing GOOD fruit.

Romans 5:19-21 (AMP)
19 For just as by one man’s disobedience (failing to hear, heedlessness, and carelessness) the many were constituted sinners, so by one Man’s obedience the many will be constituted righteous (made acceptable to God, brought into right standing with Him).
20 ****But then Law came in, [only] to expand and increase the trespass [making it more apparent and exciting opposition].**** But where sin increased and abounded, grace (God’s unmerited favor) has surpassed it and increased the more and superabounded,
21 So that, [just] as sin has reigned in death, [so] grace (His unearned and undeserved favor) might reign also through righteousness (right standing with God) which issues in eternal life through Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One) our Lord. >>>> Whoa! Look at verse 20 - the law increased sin. Are you saying that the Law increases sin? I’m not, but Paul under the anointing did. So putting on your thinking cap for a moment, what do you suppose will happen if you attempt to keep the law now, or get sucked into legalism? Do I need to spell it out? Satan will whip you worse than Job with doubt, condemnation, and fear. If you don’t understand righteousness, and attempt to establish your own on works, or whatever religion dreams up, you will forever wonder if you are good enough. You are also guilty of pride, thinking that you know a better way to earn Salvation than God!

You can attend every service, every mass, tithe, give gifts to charity, pray 7 times a day, grovel at the alter saying “I’m not worthy” 7 times a day, volunteer, teach, and even bring a covered dish to the church supper, none of that will make you righteous. It is futile and only leads to frustration - I know I have been there, have the certificates and cancelled checks to prove it.

By attempting to establish righteousness by works, you are saying that what Jesus did was insufficient. And even worse, you are missing out on God’s Grace, Favor, Freedom, and Fellowship. It is God’s overwhelming desire to treat everyone like sin never existed. He can’t do that if you don’t believe His promises and accept what Jesus did as ALL sufficient for you for ALL Eternity. Pride is the biggest stumbling block. Because it takes humility to admit that you can do nothing without Jesus. It takes a changed heart to truly cast ALL your cares on him knowing how much He loves you.

To borrow from mythology, religion (all the silly things of the flesh that men dream up to impress God and each other) is like Sisyphus, pushing the boulder up the hill, never ever quite reaching the top, only to see it roll back down every day. Relax, its not your job. Jesus has done it all. He gets ALL the Glory. God has lifted you up and adopted you into the family, you are a joint heir with Jesus, part of the Body of Christ, an Ambassador of Christ, sitting with Jesus, Blessed with every spiritual blessing in heavenly places. Its a position of strength and honor, and you did NOTHING to earn it. If you read, and really get the revelation of Ephesians, there should be such joy in your spirit you may just turn a little charismatic in spite of any religious snobbery.

How about a human analogy - If the Smith family gives all they have to adopt a child, and the court finalizes the adoption, the child becomes a member of the Smith family for all eternity - with all the rights and privileges associated with that name. Is there anything that the child could do to earn or merit that name. No! He is a Smith - entitled to all the love and favor that comes from being a part of that family. The child may be totally ignorant of his inheritance, or the depth of love and sacrifice made by his parents. He may have to drink ‘spiritual milk’ before he can eat the ‘meat’, but it all belongs to him even in ignorance.

Let’s look at the Prodigal Son who squandered his wealth and wanted to become a servant in his Father’s house - to earn his way back in. Dad didn’t even hear his request. The son could DO NOTHING to earn his place. He was the lost son, and fellowship was immediately restored - ring, coat, and a celebration. The older son resented his father’s grace - he had played by the rules, done the ‘works’. The same love and fellowship was available to the older son, but he never appreciated or requested it. All that the Father had was his!

Romans 3:31 (AMP)
31 Do we then by [this] faith make the Law of no effect, overthrow it or make it a dead letter? Certainly not! On the contrary, we confirm and establish and uphold the Law.

Uphold - to hold in high regard, esteem - not adhering to. Its a mountain too high to climb. Trying to keep the law is an insult to what Jesus did for you. If you think you can conquer that mountain, you do not esteem it, or hold it in high regard. People of faith know - its too big, too perfect to keep. Law was perfect, holy, flawless - so we could not keep it. We HAVE to have a Savior who could - see Matthew 5:20 above.

God’s LIVING WORD is GOOD NEWS! Religion is the enemy’s best friend, keeping people trapped and cut off from fellowship with their Heavenly Father and His Word. And as proven by history, religion leads to all sorts of unspeakable evil done in the name of God. We must worship God the way He wants - in Spirit and Truth. (John 4:23-24) If Jesus is your Lord, you can enjoy being in the family and enter into His REST. (Hebrews 4)

Sorry for the “polemic,” but somebody reading this thread needed to hear this. And if even one person is saved from religious bondage - God gets all the Glory, not me. It is His Word.


37 posted on 02/02/2014 12:50:19 PM PST by Kandy Atz ("Were we directed from Washington when to sow and when to reap, we should soon want for bread.")
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To: BlueDragon

Agreed.


38 posted on 02/02/2014 12:50:47 PM PST by Kandy Atz ("Were we directed from Washington when to sow and when to reap, we should soon want for bread.")
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To: matthewrobertolson
If you're wanting to actually learn the Catholic position on the Law and what "fulfillment" of it means (which, obviously, I have been so far unable to lay out in depth here) and not just wanting to throw around unsubstantiated polemics, see this article: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/3098023/posts

You guys just refuse to learn...

I sometimes follow these links but unlike Catholics, I actually check out the scriptures that are referenced in the articles while guys apparently just forge ahead thru the fog thinking you really learned something...

Are we still under a Law? Yes. However, we are not under the Mosaic one.

This is nonsense...There are approx 613 laws and they are included in the Mosaic Laws...

At this time, Christ came to redeem humanity (Hebrews 9:15) and to universalize the Law and open it up to the Gentiles (Acts 28:28, Romans 11:11)

Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Absolutely nothing in these verses about continuing under the Law...

None of this means that we are now apart from a Law.

Yes, of course it does...

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

He also positively referenced the Law in Luke 10:25-28. A lawyer asked what is required to "inherit eternal life," and Christ asked the man to look to the Law. The lawyer said that the Law commands us to "love [Him] with all [our] heart, and with all [our] soul, and with all [our] strength, and with all [our] mind; and [our] neighbor as [ourself]." Christ replied, "You have answered correctly; do this and you will live."

That's right...Before the Crucifixion...Jesus was a Jew under the Law, teaching Jews who were also under the OT Law...

Paul did not, however, reject the necessity of good works. When Paul denounces "works of the Law," he is referring to things such as ritual circumcision.

For salvation??? Paul most certainly did...You will not find in scripture anywhere that Paul was talking about ritual circumcision...You guys made it up...

Passages like Romans 3:27-30 and Galatians 3:27-29, which are surrounded by statements that seem to advocate "faith alone," are key to understanding Paul's thoughts. Paul placed emphasis on the facts that Jews and Gentiles 1) serve the same God, 2) share a common heritage, and 3) are judged by the same general standards -- we are all "one in Christ Jesus". That is partially why he so strongly insisted on the universality of Christ, the importance of faith, and the worthlessness of divisive cultural practices (e.g. circumcision).

I should say so...Those statement don't just seem to advocate 'faith alone'...He is clearly speaking about 'faith alone'...

Does the existence of a Law always "nullify the grace of God" or mean that "Christ died needlessly" (Galatians 2:21)? Absolutely not.

Absolutely not??? Now that's a flat out lie if I ever saw one...Your religion is flat out lying to your face...

Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

This author is telling you the scripture is exactly the opposite of what it says...Incredulous...

If He did not provide us with a path to redemption and salvation, then His justice would demand our damnation. To provide us with a Law is merciful of Him.

Of course Jesus provided a way...It's called:

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Truly, "what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God" (1 Corinthians 7:19) and "unless [our] righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, [we] will not enter the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 5:20).

I got news for ya...Your righteousness will never come close to the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees...You don't have a chance in Hell, of not going to Hell if you are counting on your own righteousness...

That verse wasn't written to any Christian...It was written to Jews, born and living under the Law who couldn't eat certain meat, who had to worship on Saturday, and all the other things that pertain to those under the Law...There's not a Christian any where near that bunch...

This all undermines the idea that we are not bound by a Law. The Law will not fail (Matthew 5:18, Luke 16:17). We are still under a Law, minus Mosaic cultural practices.

What ignorance...Under those 613 laws the cultural laws are just a portion...

That leaves a whole lotta laws that you have to deal with...And if you violate just one, you're sunk...

"[H]e who does the will of [God]" will reach Heaven (Matthew 7:21), and God will say, "Depart from me," to those who "practice lawlessness" (Matthew 7:23).

There's no doubt in my mind that not a single one of you believes what God's will is even tho its been pointed out countless times from the scriptures on these threads...And you certainly won't find it in the book of Matthew...

You have rejected everything Jesus taught Paul to pass on to the church...

39 posted on 02/02/2014 6:57:35 PM PST by Iscool
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To: Kandy Atz

Awesome response! Thank you.


40 posted on 02/02/2014 11:21:05 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: daniel1212
The "show us" questions are central to that which still much divides ourselves (whatever we are-- Evangelicals? "Protestants?" other Christians not much connected or wedded to idea there was to be some singular "papacy" as it grew to become to be known, it not having been there from the very beginnings of Christianity?, yeah, those guys) and those who subscribe to Roman Catholicism as we see it described.

I would gladly set aside desire to have my own replies addressed, if your own were to be considered with due care, rather than be either fought against, distracted away from --- or simply ignored.

I sit here and write -- after just hearing of my own father having passed. And a little dog which was my one of my sister's own before she passed away about a year ago -- has some infirmity I don't know what -- but is as if imploring me to help him, I'm afraid the little dog is going to go, too. poor thing. he won't eat, for two days now. something is really wrong. I pity the little creature. he's innocent, and as sweet a little dog as he can be. he does try.

41 posted on 02/03/2014 12:24:49 AM PST by BlueDragon ("the fans are staying away from the ballpark...in droves" Yogi Berra)
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To: metmom; Kackikat
"Scripture to back that up is found where??"

Please suffer me to be a bit cheeky metmom....

John 13:19 Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.

The apostle Peter went from denying Christ in fear to preaching in public on pain of death (and eventually,actual death)

I think the fact that Peter saw with his own eyes the risen Christ actually swept away completely any and all double mindedness,fear,doubt etc.It was then the mountains started moving for him.

In a very similar vein,if we are indeed living in the very last days of this age then I believe and hope a very similar thing is going to come upon believers.

God is going to equip those that are 'watching' in a big way.He told us many things beforehand so that when we see,because we are 'watching' then we will believe.

There may be literally millions of 'Peters' right now who are passionately believing on Jesus against everything in the world and even themselves and are still being hindered by the world and themselves.

Perhaps there will soon come the time when we no longer need to cry out "Lord I believe,help thou my unbelief" and then the sky will be blotted out by flying mountains and the beaches will be covered in washed up herds of swine.

Assuming the rapture to be pretrib,it would go some way to explaining why so many (that they can not be numbered)will turn to Christ on pain of loosing their heads after spending so long either holding Him at arms length or outright denying Him.

They and of course we have been told "before it come" in order that "when it comes" we may believe.

Please excuse the rant,hope it made some sense.

Grace and peace to you both!

42 posted on 02/03/2014 1:14:54 AM PST by mitch5501 ("make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things ye shall never fall")
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To: boatbums; Kandy Atz
Amen BB!

Thankyou so much for the post Kandy Atz,a wonderfull encouragement!

1 Corinthians 14:12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church

43 posted on 02/03/2014 1:18:34 AM PST by mitch5501 ("make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things ye shall never fall")
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To: BlueDragon
Dear BlueDragon

There's little I can say to all that,but grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Right this minute I'm cursing the physical distance between us.

(((hug))

44 posted on 02/03/2014 1:25:10 AM PST by mitch5501 ("make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things ye shall never fall")
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To: matthewrobertolson

Just curious

Is this yet another Catholic attack on non Catholics so Catholics here can then claim anti Catholic bigotry pervades the forum when we non Catholics push back against this chauvinism?

I’m Southern Baptist with Charismatic leanings....never ever seen in my life nasty Catholics like some here....its bizarre.... day in day out....swinging that metaphorical blade of the faith making pals

Five children whom I pay for not the state in response to whichever jerk here made that absurd accusation

A Catholic claiming charismatics had too many kids who they don’t take care of?
...is that rich or what....Hola Pancho!

I swear you guys act like its 1572 again....

Yet most Catholics in America exist in a bubble where they dominate

Large urban northern areas

So why so aggressive to other denominations?

We are a threat to you how exactly?


45 posted on 02/03/2014 1:41:41 AM PST by wardaddy (wifey instructed me today to grow chapter president beard back again....i wonder why?)
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To: mitch5501; Kackikat

Well, I’m HOPING that there will be a revival just before the end. I’m praying for it. Nothing would thrill me more than to see LOTS of people come to Christ.

But there is also Scripture that indicates that there will be a falling away and apostasy before the end.

What will happen, will happen.


46 posted on 02/03/2014 4:10:34 AM PST by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith....)
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To: wardaddy
I’m Southern Baptist with Charismatic leanings....never ever seen in my life nasty Catholics like some here....its bizarre.... day in day out....swinging that metaphorical blade of the faith making pals

Did you grow up in a heavily Catholic area?

Because I did and this kind of behavior is NOTHING new to me. I endured plenty of it at school and work.

47 posted on 02/03/2014 4:12:38 AM PST by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith....)
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To: metmom
"But there is also Scripture that indicates that there will be a falling away and apostasy before the end."

One doesn't necessarily negate the other.I think pretty much everything you listed will happen.Great apostacy,falling away and lots of people coming to Christ.

48 posted on 02/03/2014 5:16:23 AM PST by mitch5501 ("make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things ye shall never fall")
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To: BlueDragon
I sit here and write -- after just hearing of my own father having passed. And a little dog which was my one of my sister's own before she passed away about a year ago -- has some infirmity I don't know what -- but is as if imploring me to help him, I'm afraid the little dog is going to go, too. poor thing. he won't eat, for two days now. something is really wrong. I pity the little creature. he's innocent, and as sweet a little dog as he can be. he does try.

Sorry about your dad's passing, but hope he was on the Lord;s side. And yes, dogs can be precious to us, and i have stories....but they can know when it is time to go.

A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel. (Proverbs 12:10)

49 posted on 02/03/2014 5:20:07 AM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: daniel1212

Thanks for that scripture Daniel.Never seen that before. BTW thankyou for the pings.


50 posted on 02/03/2014 5:25:31 AM PST by mitch5501 ("make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things ye shall never fall")
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