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Catholic, Are You Born Again?
Tim Staples' Blog ^ | February 5, 2014 | Tim Staples

Posted on 02/07/2014 4:44:09 AM PST by GonzoII

Catholic, Are You Born Again?

Have you been born again, my friend?” Thousands of Catholics have been asked this question by well-meaning Fundamentalists or Evangelicals. Of course, by “born again” the Protestant usually means: “Have you accepted Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior through the recitation of ‘the sinner’s prayer?’” How is a Catholic to respond?

The simple Catholic response is: “Yes, I have been born again—when I was baptized.” In fact, Jesus’ famous “born again” discourse of John 3:3-5, which is where we find the words “born again” (or “born anew”) in Scripture, teaches us about the essential nature of baptism:

Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”

At this point, a Fundamentalist or Evangelical will respond almost predictably: “Baptism does not save you, brother; John 3:5 says we must be born of water and the Spirit.” The Catholic will then be told the “water” of John 3:5 has nothing to do with baptism. Depending on the preference of the one to whom the Catholic is speaking, the “water” will either be interpreted as man’s natural birth (the “water” being amniotic fluid), and “the Spirit” would then represent the new birth, or the water would represent the word of God through which one is born again when he accepts Jesus as his personal Lord and Savior.

Amniotic Fluid vs. Baptismal Water

To claim the “water” of John 3:5 is amniotic fluid is to stretch the context just a smidgen! When we consider the actual words and surrounding context of John 3, the waters of baptism seem to be the more reasonable—and biblical—interpretation. Consider these surrounding texts:

John 1:31-34: Jesus was baptized. If you compare the parallel passage in St. Matthew’s gospel (3:16), you find that when Jesus was baptized, “the heavens were opened” and the Spirit descended upon him. Obviously, this was not because Jesus needed to be baptized. In fact, St. John the Baptist noted that he needed to be baptized by Jesus (see Matthew 3:14)! Jesus was baptized in order “fulfill all righteousness” and “to give knowledge of salvation to his people in the forgiveness of their sins,” according to Scripture (cf. Matt. 3:15; Luke 1:77). In other words, Jesus demonstrably showed us the way the heavens would be opened to us so that the Holy Spirit would descend upon us… through baptism.

John 2:1-11: Jesus performed his first miracle. He transformed water into wine. Notice, Jesus used water from “six stone jars … for the Jewish rites of purification.” According to the Septuagint as well as the New Testament these purification waters were called baptismoi (see LXX, Numbers 19:9-19; cf. Mark 7:4). We know that Old Testament rites, sacrifices, etc. were only “a shadow of the good things to come” (Hebrews 10:1). They could never take away sins. This may well be why “six” stone jars are specified by St. John—to denote imperfection, or “a human number” (cf. Rev. 13:18). It is interesting to note that Jesus transformed these Old Testament baptismal waters into wine—a symbol of New Covenant perfection (see Joel 3:18; Matthew 9:17).

John 3:22: Immediately after Jesus’ “born again” discourse to Nicodemus, what does He do? “… Jesus and his disciples went into the land of Judea; there he remained with them and baptized.” It appears he baptized folks. This is the only time in Scripture we find Jesus apparently actually baptizing.

John 4:1-2: Jesus’ disciples then begin to baptize at Jesus’ command. It appears from the text, Jesus most likely only baptized his disciples and then they baptized everyone else.

In summary, Jesus was baptized, transformed the “baptismal” waters, and then gave his famous “born again” discourse. He then baptized before commissioning the apostles to go out and baptize. To deny Jesus was teaching us about baptism in John 3:3-5 is to ignore the clear biblical context.

Moreover, John 3:5 is not describing two events; it describes one event. The text does not say “unless one is born of water and then born again of the Spirit…” It says “unless one is born of water and Spirit…” If we hearken back to the Lord’s own baptism in John 1 and Matt. 3, we notice when our Lord was baptized the Holy Spirit descended simultaneously upon him. This was one event, involving both water and the Spirit. And so it is with our baptism. If we obey God in being baptized—that’s our part of the deal—we can count on God to concurrently “open the heavens” for us and give us the Holy Spirit.

And finally, it would be anachronistic to read into Jesus’ use of “water” to mean physical birth in John’s gospel. In fact, St. John had just used a word to refer to physical birth in John 1:12-13, but it wasn’t “water:”

But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God; who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

St. John here tells us we are not made children of God by birth (“of blood”), or by our own attempts whether they be through our lower nature (“of the flesh”) or even through the higher powers of our soul (“the will of man”); rather, we must be born of God, or by God’s power. Notice, St. John refers to natural birth colloquially as “of blood,” not “of water.”

Washing of Water by the Word

It is perhaps an even greater stretch to attempt to claim the “water” of John 3:3-5 represents the word of God. At least with the amniotic fluid argument, you have mention of “birth” in the immediate context. However, the Protestant will sometimes refer to Ephesians 5:25-26 and a few other texts to make this point:

Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word…

“See?” a Protestant may say, “The ‘washing of water’ is here equated to ‘the word’ that cleanses us.” If you couple this text with Jesus’ words in John 15:3, “You are already made clean by the word which I have spoken to you,” the claim is made, that “the water” of John 3:5 would actually refer to the word of God rather than baptism.

The Catholic Response

Beyond the obvious fact that there is nothing in the context of John’s gospel to even remotely point to “water” as referring to ”the word,” we can point out immediately a point of agreement. Both Catholics and Protestants agree that Jesus’ words—unless one is born anew (or, again)—speak of man’s initial entrance into the body of Christ through God’s grace. Perhaps it would be helpful at this point to ask what the New Testament writers saw as the instrument whereby one first enters into Christ. This would be precisely what we are talking about when we speak of being “born again.”

I Peter 3:20-21: “… in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.”

Romans 6:3-4: “Are you unaware that we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?  We were indeed buried with Him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might live in newness of life.”

Galatians 3:27: “For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.”

I Cor. 12:13: “For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit (See also Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16 and Col. 2:11-13).

If baptism is the way the unsaved are brought into Christ, no wonder Christ spoke of being “born of water and spirit.” Baptism is the instrument of new birth according to the New Testament.

If you liked this and would like to dive deeper into learning what Catholics believe and why they believe it, click here.



TOPICS: Catholic; Theology
KEYWORDS: baptism; bornagain; salvation; timstaples
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1Pe 3:21 ...baptism doth also now save us..
1 posted on 02/07/2014 4:44:09 AM PST by GonzoII
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To: GonzoII

Born again to me means that moment that you, as a functioning adult, accept God as the all mighty rather than carrying on with the rote you ware handed growing up or otherwise a lack of training. It is the concept of understanding.


2 posted on 02/07/2014 5:07:43 AM PST by TalBlack
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To: GonzoII
shouldn't it be “ye”
3 posted on 02/07/2014 5:14:02 AM PST by VaRepublican (I would propagate taglines but I don't know how. But bloggers do.)
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To: GonzoII; All

“The Catholic Response”


As a matter of fact, this ISN’T the Catholic response. This is only the response of a small and pitiful faction known as traditionalists who don’t read the catechism or listen to their Popes anymore, even as their Popes tongue-kiss the Koran and praise Islam, and who never fail to make excuses for the rampant liberalism that runs their church and makes their theology absolutely contradictory and damnable.

What the Papists actually teach is that non-believers, who have not been baptized, can be perfectly saved so long as they are willing to work for it, chief among whom are the Muslims:

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”330

As for baptism, the scriptures also say that we would be baptized in “fire” as well (Matt 3:11), and yet, the Papists do not have the courtesy of roasting themselves instead of troubling innocent Christians with obnoxious assertions. That Simon Magus was also baptized, and yet, obviously, was never regenerated (Acts 8:13-24), and the Thief on the cross saved without it at all, along with Cornelius who was regenerated before baptism explicitly (Acts 10:44-48), I think we can safely conclude that baptism of water has no regenerating power within it. And, therefore, the power of regeneration resides in the Holy Spirit only, and not in any ordinance, which are signs and symbols for far deeper spiritual realities that have already occurred.


4 posted on 02/07/2014 5:16:15 AM PST by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: TalBlack

The focus on when a man is born again must be on The Lord, not the man, for a man has no more control over the work of the Holy Spirit than he does the wind. When one is born again he will believe, but The Lord had to work the miracle of the new birth in his heart first. A dead man cannot make himself come alive. Only God can do that. That’s what Christ Himself taught Nicodemus.

“Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
-—John 3:7-8


5 posted on 02/07/2014 5:39:49 AM PST by .45 Long Colt
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To: .45 Long Colt

I highly recommend the teaching series which is part of today’s $5 Friday special from Ligonier:

“The New Birth” by Dr. Steven Larson

http://www.ligonier.org/store/the-new-birth-download/


6 posted on 02/07/2014 5:42:36 AM PST by .45 Long Colt
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To: GonzoII
Catholic, Are You Born Again?

It doesn't matter who it is but if you have not put your faith in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins and eternal life, there is no hope!
7 posted on 02/07/2014 5:59:12 AM PST by ForAmerica (Texas Conservative Christian *born again believer in Jesus Christ* Black Man!)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
What the Papists actually teach is that non-believers, who have not been baptized, can be perfectly saved so long as they are willing to work for it, chief among whom are the Muslims:

What an ugly and venomous misrepresentation. Is twisting someone else's words like a pretzel some sacrament of your religion? Is name-calling like a petulant schoolboy another?

non-believers, who have not been baptized, can be perfectly saved

Certainly the Bible is clear that water baptism is not an absolute requirement for salvation (although it is a normative one); consider the penitent thief for example.

Then all that remains is whether there is such a thing as inculpable ignorance as an explanation for non-belief, and whether God chooses to overlook such ignorance at least sometimes. He's sovereign, remember, and gets to break his own rules.

can be perfectly saved

"Part of God's plan of salvation" does not equate to "perfectly saved," sorry.

so long as they are willing to work for it

LG doesn't say that Muslims are saved by "working for it". Neither is anyone else.

chief among whom are the Muslims:

The most egregious example of twisting. A cursory read of the source document makes it clear that "in the first place" referring to Muslims means "in the first place AFTER CONSIDERING ALL JUDEO-CHRISTIAN FAITHS, which the document has already done in discussing Catholics, then Orthodox, then Protestants, then Jews. Only viewed against all of the OTHER remaining religious classifications are Muslims "in the first place".

BTW, Mr. Staples is perfectly orthodox and in the mainstream of Catholic thought AFAIK, not some kind of fringe traditionalist as you paint him to be.

He's also ex-Assemblies of God -- you know, one of those groups you don't insult with derogatory names.

8 posted on 02/07/2014 5:59:45 AM PST by Campion ("Social justice" begins in the womb)
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To: GonzoII; Greetings_Puny_Humans; .45 Long Colt; metmom; boatbums; caww; presently no screen name; ...
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (John 3:5)

So since John 3:5 makes it an absolute imperative that one be baptized of water and the Spirit, and Rome holds that this water refers to baptism (though i am not aware if she infallibly defines this verse or 1Pt. 321 as teaching that), then you must hold that one must be baptized in order to be born again. Correct? It must be to be consistent.

But that is refuted by Scripture, (Acts 10:38-43; 15:7-9) and the Lord in Jn. 3 is interacting the natural man's understanding, that of Nicodemus, that "born again" referred to a physical birth, and thus the "water" aspect is added, as one must have two births, and water brings forth life in Gn. 1:20. And which is consistent with John, who contrasts the physical and the spiritual, with the physical never gaining eternal life, except faith in the atonement, and who goes back to the "beginning" often.

9 posted on 02/07/2014 6:11:29 AM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: daniel1212

To me from my understanding, baptism is something one does as an adult as a public showing of your obedience to Jesus. It’s a public affirmation of your faith in him.

I have never seen any scripture indicating that babies were baptized.


10 posted on 02/07/2014 6:15:51 AM PST by Bulwyf
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To: Campion; All

“What an ugly and venomous misrepresentation.”


Don’t make me pull out a photo of Pope John Paul II tongue-kissing the Koran! It’s downright pornographic.

“Certainly the Bible is clear that water baptism is not an absolute requirement for salvation (although it is a normative one); consider the penitent thief for example.”


Only if we abolish the way you read your text, otherwise, you are hanged by it:

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, HE CANNOT ENTER THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN.

“LG doesn’t say that Muslims are saved by “working for it”. Neither is anyone else.”


Meanwhile in the real world:

“Sharing our experience in carrying that cross, to expel the illness within our hearts, which embitters our life: it is important that you do this in your meetings. Those that are Christian, with the Bible, and those that are Muslim, with the Quran. The faith that your parents instilled in you will always help you move on.” (Pope Francis)

“The Lord created us in His image and likeness, and we are the image of the Lord, and He does good and all of us have this commandment at heart: do good and do not do evil. All of us. ‘But, Father, this is not Catholic! He cannot do good.’ Yes, he can… “The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone!”.. We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.” (Pope Francis)

“”Part of God’s plan of salvation” does not equate to “perfectly saved,” sorry.”


Whose twisting words? I said perfectly saved “so long as they are willing to work with it.” And that is the true and accurate teaching of your church, which you then defend with a mention of this dribble:

“Then all that remains is whether there is such a thing as inculpable ignorance as an explanation for non-belief, and whether God chooses to overlook such ignorance at least sometimes. He’s sovereign, remember, and gets to break his own rules.”


One of the problems with such claims of “inculpable” ignorance is that it is so broad that your Pope applies it to Atheists who he is sitting in an interview with. How ignorant can the Atheist be of Christianity when he is sitting right next to the Pope? Thus, in effect, the Papists teach salvation to the church only to Protestant conservatives, but universalism to Atheists who “do good”, under the logic that, if they truly were “informed” of Papism, they would convert.

The second but, actually, more serious problem is that there is no such thing as invincible ignorance, and all are damned who do not confess Christ as Lord and savior:

As the scripture says, all men are guilty before God, regardless of how much “light” they have received (Rom 3:19). As all men have received, to a certain extent, the law of God imprinted on their hearts, as well as the light of nature revealing the existence of God, therefore they are summarily rendered “without excuse,” (Rom 1:20, 2:14) and “as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law” (Rom 2:12). And again, “for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God”(Rom 3:9-11). And again, all those who do not know God have no hope, and lack God in the world (Eph 2:12).

And finally, “All that the Father giveth me shall come to me,” and, to “come” is to believe: “But there are some of you who do not believe... This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” (Joh 6:37, 64-65), thus it cannot be claimed that there are those who are saved who exist amongst horrid cults or false religions who deny the Father and the Son, since all those whom the Father gives to the Son do not stand idle, but come rushing into the arms of the savior according to His plan and promise.

1Jn_4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

If any man is in the world who never heard the Gospel, it was by the infallible power of God, and not by random chance, that he was left so abandoned. And, therefore, it was one of those whom God chose not to have mercy on, in accordance with His almighty sovereignty (Rom 9:18-21).

This is the true meaning of sovereignty. Not that God saves Muslims who deny Christ.

“Only viewed against all of the OTHER remaining religious classifications are Muslims “in the first place”.”


Actually, your religion equalizes them with Jews on the basis of “worshipping the same God,” albeit in a different mode. They do not consider Muslims to be on the same level as Hindus or Buddhists.


11 posted on 02/07/2014 6:17:00 AM PST by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Bulwyf
I have never seen any scripture indicating that babies were baptized.

Whole households were baptized as recorded in scripture. Did they somehow keep the babies and infants outside the house while the sacrament was administered?

Matthew 19:14-15 "Then they brought children to him, so that he might lay his hands on them in prayer; and his disciples rebuked them for it. 14 But Jesus said, Let the children be, do not keep them back from me; the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these. 15 And so he laid his hands on them, and went on his way. "

12 posted on 02/07/2014 6:28:30 AM PST by frogjerk (We are conservatives. Not libertarians, not "fiscal conservatives", not moderates)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

You contradicted yourself on whether baptism is necessary or it isn’t


13 posted on 02/07/2014 6:31:56 AM PST by frogjerk (We are conservatives. Not libertarians, not "fiscal conservatives", not moderates)
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To: frogjerk

“You contradicted yourself on whether baptism is necessary or it isn’t”


Care to quote the contradiction?


14 posted on 02/07/2014 6:32:29 AM PST by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, HE CANNOT ENTER THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN.

vs.

I think we can safely conclude that baptism of water has no regenerating power within it. And, therefore, the power of regeneration resides in the Holy Spirit only, and not in any ordinance, which are signs and symbols for far deeper spiritual realities that have already occurred.

15 posted on 02/07/2014 6:38:05 AM PST by frogjerk (We are conservatives. Not libertarians, not "fiscal conservatives", not moderates)
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Comment #16 Removed by Moderator

To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

I’m trying to have an intellegent discussion with you. Why don’t you quit it with the insults and explain how the text is being supposedly manipulated or twisted?


17 posted on 02/07/2014 6:44:15 AM PST by frogjerk (We are conservatives. Not libertarians, not "fiscal conservatives", not moderates)
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Comment #18 Removed by Moderator

To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

humor me, please show me where you explained how the text is being twisted or manipulated?


19 posted on 02/07/2014 6:55:12 AM PST by frogjerk (We are conservatives. Not libertarians, not "fiscal conservatives", not moderates)
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To: frogjerk

I think you’re misinterpreting scripture.


20 posted on 02/07/2014 6:55:16 AM PST by Bulwyf
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To: Bulwyf

how so?


21 posted on 02/07/2014 6:56:30 AM PST by frogjerk (We are conservatives. Not libertarians, not "fiscal conservatives", not moderates)
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To: frogjerk

“humor me, please show me where you explained how the text is being twisted or manipulated?”


Sure:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/3120249/posts

Read my posts in that link (LOL) and you should have an idea of what I was saying.

Now’s your chance to actually read my posts, analyze them, and explain how they are lacking or wrong in some way, and then I’ll be able to respond with more clarity, if clarity is needed.


22 posted on 02/07/2014 6:58:05 AM PST by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: frogjerk

I’ll explain later, I’m on my way to the patch, and the roads aren’t great lol.


23 posted on 02/07/2014 6:59:27 AM PST by Bulwyf
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To: GonzoII

Thank you for posting articles like this .. they’re very interesting.

Unlike the follow-on “discussion” (I use the term loosely), which is worse than merely useless.


24 posted on 02/07/2014 7:00:24 AM PST by NorthMountain
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To: GonzoII

Claims by “Born Agains” about needing to be born again is nothing but judgment by them that the Lord says not to do.


25 posted on 02/07/2014 7:09:47 AM PST by CodeToad (When ignorance rules a person's decision they are resorting to superstition.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
I read your posts and I have a question? Why did you purposely edit Pope Francis' comments and not post the whole paragraph you quoted from? It should read:

"The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone! And this Blood makes us children of God of the first class! We are created children in the likeness of God and the Blood of Christ has redeemed us all! And we all have a duty to do good. And this commandment for everyone to do good, I think, is a beautiful path towards peace. If we, each doing our own part, if we do good to others, if we meet there, doing good, and we go slowly, gently, little by little, we will make that culture of encounter: we need that so much. We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.”

Text from page http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2013/05/22/pope_at_mass:_culture_of_encounter_is_the_foundation_of_peace/en1-694445 of the Vatican Radio website

This is a very different reading than what you are purporting in your post.

26 posted on 02/07/2014 7:10:16 AM PST by frogjerk (We are conservatives. Not libertarians, not "fiscal conservatives", not moderates)
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To: GonzoII

**Catholic, Are You Born Again? **

Absolutely.


27 posted on 02/07/2014 7:11:27 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

By water and the Spirit!


28 posted on 02/07/2014 7:16:23 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: frogjerk

“This is a very different reading than what you are purporting in your post.”


Can you please give a logical and reasonable explanation for how that is so?


29 posted on 02/07/2014 7:18:22 AM PST by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
I think we would all be better able to follow your assertions if you would observe FR's conventions for posting the comment you are responding to in italics instead of designing your own format of quote marks, rule lines and inconsistent spacing.

Here is where you can find out how to post consistently with the norms established here since 1997: HTML Sandbox 2013. You can also access this instruction thread any time by looking at the keywords on the top of the main page and selecting "HTML Sandbox."

30 posted on 02/07/2014 7:24:24 AM PST by Albion Wilde (The less a man knows, the more certain he is that he knows it all.)
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To: GonzoII
The simple Catholic response is: “Yes, I have been born again—when I was baptized.” In fact, Jesus’ famous “born again” discourse of John 3:3-5, which is where we find the words “born again” (or “born anew”) in Scripture, teaches us about the essential nature of baptism:

This is the response of those that are not Born Again Christians. Rather, it is the response of those that are caught in a system that indoctrinates it's members with the idea that you will work your way to salvation.

The fundamental divide between Born Again Christians and Roman Catholics is how God's Grace is obtained. Born Again Christians understand that Grace is a gift of God that is given to us because of our Faith Alone in Jesus Christ Alone. We understand everything was changed at the Cross.

Roman Catholics do not believe The Gospel. Rather they follow the Jewish religious model that was established prior to the Cross. They teach that there is a required sacramental system, which can only be administered by their designated priesthood. The sacrificial system they believe in, as with the Jewish religious model, only has a temporary effect and requires regular replacement.

The RCC has also mimicked the Jewish practices in how their priests are elevated and believed to be the only ones worthy of implementing the needed ongoing sacrifice. Also, they embrace the idea that the civil state is an extension of the religious order and as such should impose the penalties for sin.

Like most non Born Again people they don't fully understand the significance of the Cross. The sacrificial system is done. The perfect sacrifice has been made and because it's perfect it is sufficient. Also what they fail to see, because they are not Born Again, is after the Cross churches were established as independent bodies that were unified by faith not the imposed power of the state.

31 posted on 02/07/2014 7:24:47 AM PST by wmfights
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To: GonzoII

Catholicism teaches you to get to third base, rarely teaching what you need to get to heaven. Many Romans come to fully trust Christ apart from works anyway. My father, for instance.

I’ve observed that Roman Catholics make great, joyful Christians when the light dawns about how to be sure of salvation.


32 posted on 02/07/2014 7:26:24 AM PST by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
It is pretty obvious how by what you posted. Your post of the Pope:

“The Lord created us in His image and likeness, and we are the image of the Lord, and He does good and all of us have this commandment at heart: do good and do not do evil. All of us. ‘But, Father, this is not Catholic! He cannot do good.’ Yes, he can… “The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone!”.. We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.” (Pope Francis)

This is definitely not:

"The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone! And this Blood makes us children of God of the first class! We are created children in the likeness of God and the Blood of Christ has redeemed us all! And we all have a duty to do good. And this commandment for everyone to do good, I think, is a beautiful path towards peace. If we, each doing our own part, if we do good to others, if we meet there, doing good, and we go slowly, gently, little by little, we will make that culture of encounter: we need that so much. We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.”

You have actually concatenated two paragraphs and selectively quoted the Pope into one paragraph and you have purposely left out the context of Our Lord's words as quoted by the Pope - He was speaking about this in the previous paragraph:

Wednesday’s Gospel speaks to us about the disciples who prevented a person from outside their group from doing good. “They complain,” the Pope said in his homily, because they say, “If he is not one of us, he cannot do good. If he is not of our party, he cannot do good.” And Jesus corrects them: “Do not hinder him, he says, let him do good.” The disciples, Pope Francis explains, “were a little intolerant,” closed off by the idea of ​​possessing the truth, convinced that “those who do not have the truth, cannot do good.” “This was wrong . . . Jesus broadens the horizon.” Pope Francis said, “The root of this possibility of doing good – that we all have – is in creation”:

Text from page http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2013/05/22/pope_at_mass:_culture_of_encounter_is_the_foundation_of_peace/en1-694445 of the Vatican Radio website

Text without Context is Pretext is my explanation as shown above.

33 posted on 02/07/2014 7:30:06 AM PST by frogjerk (We are conservatives. Not libertarians, not "fiscal conservatives", not moderates)
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To: Albion Wilde; Greetings_Puny_Humans
Here is where you can find out how to post consistently with the norms established here since 1997: HTML Sandbox 2013. You can also access this instruction thread any time by looking at the keywords on the top of the main page and selecting "HTML Sandbox."

Great suggestion!

I for one have really been enjoying GPH's insightful posts and using the italics would be helpful.

34 posted on 02/07/2014 7:30:39 AM PST by wmfights
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To: TalBlack

I have some serious questions. I was born and raised Catholic, but last year had a born again moment/experience. I am no longer Catholic and consider myself “born again” except for the fact that I have never been baptized as an adult. In the last few months the idea of wanting to be baptized has been really gnawing at my spirit. I am ready to to it. My question is, who performs my adult baptism? Can anyone do it, and where must it be...lake, swimming pool? This is really important to me now. Any help or advice is greatly appreciated.


35 posted on 02/07/2014 7:35:50 AM PST by Boanarges
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To: Albion Wilde

“I think we would all be better able to follow your assertions”


You mean my facts. I do not most assertions. As for italics, actually, it doesn’t work for me. It just turns my posts into one giant text-block. No spacing. Just paragraphs all joined together. Same thing happens if I include any kind of weird text, such as stuff in Greek or Hebrew which wasn’t romanized. I suspect it’s the browser. One of these days I’ll fix it.


36 posted on 02/07/2014 7:37:14 AM PST by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: frogjerk

“You have actually concatenated two paragraphs and selectively quoted the Pope into one paragraph and you have purposely left out the context of Our Lord’s words as quoted by the Pope - He was speaking about this in the previous paragraph:”


I’m still missing the “logical” explanation for “how this is so.” You can probably start with explaining what the Pope meant, and what you think I said he meant, and explain how they do not converge.


37 posted on 02/07/2014 7:39:49 AM PST by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Bulwyf
I have never seen any scripture indicating that babies were baptized.

But an RC can see what they want, and thus 3 simple mentions of household baptisms (Acts 16:33; 18:8; 1Cor. 1:16) is proffered as evidence for paedobaptism, yet the stated requirement is that of repentant wholehearted faith, (Acts 2:28; 8:36,37) which an infant cannot fulfill.

And while we suffer from the effects of Adam's sin, eternal damnation is based upon what one is personally culpable for, not that of our fathers. Dt. 24:16; 2Ki 14:5,6; 2Ch 25:4; Jer 31:29,30; Eze 18:20)

In addition, where more information is provided other than a cursory mean such as "I baptized also the household of Stephanas," then it records or indicates that those baptized were those who could hear the word and thus respond. (Acts 2:41; 8:12; 10:43-47; 19:4,5; 16:32; 22:16)

38 posted on 02/07/2014 7:45:41 AM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
Firstly, read the Pope's comments and quote them correctly before you post them.

Secondly, what I am asserting is that you have purposely left many things out of your quoting of the Pope to make it justify your argument and to intimate that he was stating that we would meet atheists in heaven as if they were saved thru some sort of ignorance or work of themself. The Pope is not stating that at all. What he is asking people to do, or suggesting that people, even non-believers do, is to do good as a step to getting on the right path where we can meet and both help each other move forward towards Heaven.

I am not the Pope nor do I claim to be my own Pope so only he knows what he means entirely but that is what I get out of it when read in its entirety.

As for yourself, you should know what you were trying to state and if I misunderstood your thought or argument in the piecemeal paragraph by the Pope that you posted then correct me.

39 posted on 02/07/2014 7:55:17 AM PST by frogjerk (We are conservatives. Not libertarians, not "fiscal conservatives", not moderates)
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To: daniel1212
Serious questions:

Did not the early church, which many non-Catholic Christians are purporting to go back to, baptize infants?

If St. Paul states that baptism replaces circumsision in the New Covenant, couldn't he have used a better analogy as to exclude infants from being baptized?

If faith in Christ is needed for salvation what happens if you yourself cannot make a confession of faith in Christ and you die? What if you were 2 years old? Are you condemmed to Hell?

40 posted on 02/07/2014 8:03:09 AM PST by frogjerk (We are conservatives. Not libertarians, not "fiscal conservatives", not moderates)
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Comment #41 Removed by Moderator

To: TalBlack

“Born again to me means that moment that you, as a functioning adult, accept God as the all mighty rather than carrying on with the rote you ware handed growing up or otherwise a lack of training. It is the concept of understanding.”

And where does it say you have to be a “functioning adult” with “understanding?” I missed that bit in the bible. [Mainly because IT’S NOT THERE!] Consider that with “your way” - retarded people are just out of luck. Consider that Jesus said of little children “suffer the little children come unto me.” And consider in NT times “whole households” [which CERTAINLY would have included infants and the very young, were baptized. Baptism is the NEW way one is united in a covenant relationship to God, it is available to all mankind and not just the Jewish people.


42 posted on 02/07/2014 8:30:01 AM PST by gemoftheocean (...geez, this all seems so straight forward and logical to me...)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

you obviously don’t have a CLUE regards the sacrament of Baptism and what the church teaches. Please. No false preaching from the peanut gallery about what Catholics believe. You are not an accurate reporter.

We are saved by God’s GRACE, through faith and good works. Or did you rip James out of your bible? We are also meant to be baptized, normally through water and saying “I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.” There is also “baptism of desire” where one can’t be baptized, perhaps for a practical reason like the thief on the cross, and St. Genesius, an actor who was acting in an anti-Christian lay and midway in the performance, which mocked Christian beliefs, he DID embrace Christian beliefs, said so and was martyred on the spot. He is still patron saint of actors.


43 posted on 02/07/2014 8:35:50 AM PST by gemoftheocean (...geez, this all seems so straight forward and logical to me...)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

OK, then. Since you insist on iconoclastic presentation that confuses the reader with lines that look just like the lines FR uses to separate one post from another, and comment typosgraphy that looks just like reply typography, hope you’ll be happy with low readership.


44 posted on 02/07/2014 8:43:10 AM PST by Albion Wilde (The less a man knows, the more certain he is that he knows it all.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
As for italics, actually, it doesn’t work for me. It just turns my posts into one giant text-block. No spacing. Just paragraphs all joined together. Same thing happens if I include any kind of weird text, such as stuff in Greek or Hebrew which wasn’t romanized. I suspect it’s the browser.

No, that is your lack of HTML skills, which other freepers take the time to learn and can easily be addressed as noted above. Lack of paragraphs is due to not putting the html paragraph indicator in place, for one thing.

45 posted on 02/07/2014 8:46:56 AM PST by Albion Wilde (The less a man knows, the more certain he is that he knows it all.)
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To: gemoftheocean

“you obviously don’t have a CLUE regards the sacrament of Baptism and what the church teaches.”


Considering how many Papists I’ve debated on FR who have alternatively defended salvation for Muslims and atheists and denied that the church teaches it, I suspect it is the Papists who do not actually know what their church teaches. All they know is that their “church” is right.

“We are saved by God’s GRACE, through faith and good works. Or did you rip James out of your bible?”


IOW, you teach that grace is merited for salvation, just like the catechism:

2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

Note: We can “then” merit the graces needed for “sanctification.... and for the attainment of eternal life,” amongst temporal blessings.

Compare with the scripture:

Rom_4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Rom_11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Rom_9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Grace, by definition, is gratuitous, and therefore cannot be earned by any merit of an individual, but by the absolute gift of God. As Saint Augustine explains:

“For who makes thee to differ, and what has thou that thou hast not received?” (1 Cor. iv. 7). Our merits therefore do not cause us to differ, but grace. For if it be merit, it is a debt; and if it be a debt, it is not gratuitous; and if it be not gratuitous, it is not grace.” (Augustine, Sermon 293)


46 posted on 02/07/2014 8:47:59 AM PST by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion

“Catholicism teaches you to get to third base, rarely teaching what you need to get to heaven. Many Romans come to fully trust Christ apart from works anyway. My father, for instance.

I’ve observed that Roman Catholics make great, joyful Christians when the light dawns about how to be sure of salvation.”

And you and your dad are poorer for rejecting the Eucharist, the gift of Christ Himself which you reject, as did Judas. I suggest you read John 6. “Unless you EAT MY FLESH and DRINK MY BLOOD you have no life within you.” Does your church do that? It’s not a symbol. It’s His flesh and blood. Judas split after that. The only way you can be sure you have been saved is when you get to heaven. “not all who say ‘Lord, Lord’ will be saved.” In other words, people can fall away.


47 posted on 02/07/2014 8:48:23 AM PST by gemoftheocean (...geez, this all seems so straight forward and logical to me...)
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To: Albion Wilde

“No, that is your lack of HTML skills, which other freepers take the time to learn and can easily be addressed as noted above.”


Thanks for your advice, though I will completely ignore it for now.


48 posted on 02/07/2014 8:50:12 AM PST by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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Comment #49 Removed by Moderator

To: Boanarges

Catholics can have “born again” moments.

You are still a Catholic, however. The marks of Baptism and Confirmation are indelible.

Sit down with a priest and get your questions answered.


50 posted on 02/07/2014 8:53:16 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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