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Birth control reconsidered: Protestant film questions contraception, rediscovers Reformation beliefs
TheChristians.com ^ | Jun 11, 2013 | Celeste McGovern

Posted on 02/17/2014 9:40:55 PM PST by Brian Kopp DPM

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To: Brian Kopp DPM
How much it begs the question, what is it you're really afraid of? That if the Church is right on this and you (most obviously) are wrong, maybe the Church is right on a lot more things than you're willing to admit. And admitting being in error is the one thing many people can't do, even if it jeopardizes their eternal salvation.

That kind of response and logic is what RCs often resort to, yet it is RCs who example the most tenacious denial in the light of evidence, including refusing to believe that the recent Vatican survey (http://www.patheos.com/blogs/deaconsbench/2013/11/vatican-releases-full-text-of-document-and-survey-questions-for-2014-synod-of-bishops-on-the-family/) was real, because the results testify (the subject of a recent caucus thread: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/3123469/posts) to what i have been showing for years, and which RCs often denied as being the work of biased pollsters, or they tried to deny as being RC those whom Rome treats as members in life and in death.

As for the logic that being right on one thing warrants credence on others, that simply is specious, as even a broken clock is correct twice a day, while we also concur with the Jews on many things they handed down to us, but which does not warrant submission to the rest, much less to Rome.

The church simply did not begin on the premise that the instruments and stewards of Scripture were the infallible authorities on it as a body, but it began in dissent from those who, like Rome, presumed of themselves above that which is written, and established their Truth claims upon Scriptural substantiation in word and in power, Scripture being the supreme standard for Truth. And this it must do today.

61 posted on 02/18/2014 5:59:18 PM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: metmom

Forgot to ping you to the above.


62 posted on 02/18/2014 6:01:40 PM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: NKP_Vet

“If anyone posts anything about the Catholic Church that is undisputed fact ...”

I for one would love to see you post a LOT OF FACTS. If you can post some undisputed facts, even better. I’d enjoy it.


63 posted on 02/18/2014 6:30:41 PM PST by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: NKP_Vet

“The protestant guilt of leaving the Church runs deep. There is no other explanation.”

This appears to be “making it personal” in violation of the RF rules.


64 posted on 02/18/2014 6:32:03 PM PST by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: Brian Kopp DPM; metmom; Morgana

I think some American Catholics who lived through the Great Depression (a time when many were limiting the size of their families due to economic conditions) developed the attitude that it was expedient to control family size through artificial means. I don’t know how many of the the Depression families managed to limit their number of children to two (generally one boy and one girl).


65 posted on 02/18/2014 6:41:15 PM PST by thecodont
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To: NKP_Vet
I am only concerned with the posts that I have replied to and you have answered, whether started by me or others. You have never said one thing positive about Catholicism. If it’s a great human interest story that just happens to be written by a Catholic, whether on abortion or anything else, hundreds of posters will weigh in on it except you. Nothing from you about anything positive to do with the Catholic Church.

Nonsense.

Since, by your own admission, you have not read every single post I've ever posted, you cannot make *never* and *except you* statements.

The protestant guilt of leaving the Church runs deep. There is no other explanation.

Sure there is. But your projection is noted.

66 posted on 02/18/2014 7:38:21 PM PST by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith....)
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To: metmom
I didn't change the topic: They presume to tell married couples how to manage their sex life.

You stated the Catholic Church tried to manage people's sex lives. I was showing the ridiculousness of your assertion. Can Christians have moral teachings regarding sex outside marriage and sodomy, since that also means "managing their sex life"?

The hypocrisy abounds. NFP is about preventing pregnancy, the very thing that is condemned by many Catholics on this board. Sex without the risk of pregnancy is sex without the risk of pregnancy. If that is inherently evil, then so is NFP because one of it's main purposes is sex without the risk of pregnancy.

Wrong. Completely and utterly wrong. NFP is as about getting pregnant as avoiding pregnancy. Couples looking to conceive, even ones with fertility issues, use it to great effect. Contraceptives make a woman take chemicals that cause havoc on a perfectly functioning reproductive system, or make a male use a condom and commit Onanism.

When a couple decides, they can use NFP to abstain from the marital act during peak times. They can also use NFP to increase their chances of conceiving. It's a tool, and a good one at that. The others do are a direct action towards not conceiving and the end game and is therefore not allowable.

It's been shown on this thread that your interpretation of Onan does not correlate with the Church fathers, or with scriptural consistency.

Also, my wife was at risk of miscarriage from low progesterone. Charting with NFP made us see the problem early and avoided her having a miscarriage. Others who didn't know about NFP didn't have the same good fortune.

You didn't respond to the passage in Matthew. Imagine that...

I'll concede your final point, but it does nothing to bolster your case.
67 posted on 02/18/2014 7:48:45 PM PST by DarkSavant
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To: NKP_Vet
The protestant guilt of leaving the Church runs deep. There is no other explanation.

No guilt because.....

My salvation is by grace through faith in Christ, not by baptism into a church.

The Catholic church is not the One True Church and salvation is not through it.

Scripture rather than the Catholic church is authoritative.

The Catholic church has no claim on me or my soul that it can dictate any aspect of my life to me. I answer to Christ not the pope.

Not to mention, that if I did *feel guilt* about leaving the church, then it would be easily resolved by coming back to it. It's not like leaving it is a permanent decision, at least according to your Catholic cohorts.

Why should I feel guilty about leaving an organization that does not consider the finished work of Christ on the cross enough to secure someone's salvation and adds man-made teaching to Scripture as authoritative and puts men into the bondage of works to merit heaven?

68 posted on 02/18/2014 7:57:49 PM PST by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith....)
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To: DarkSavant
I didn't change the topic:

Sure you did. Why did you presume that my comment of They presume to tell married couples how to manage their sex life. meant priests telling married couples not to have sex? (Your comment of "Can you give an example of an occasion a Priest told a married couple they could not have sex? ")

My comment did not say anything about priests telling married couples not to have sex.

Matthew 19:1-13 does NOT say virginity is better than marriage. Just another Scripture twisted to support Catholic doctrine.

When God created Adam, he said that it was not good for man to be alone. Sex was God's idea and He blessed the union and gives a portion of His Spirit in that union.

If virginity were better for man, then why did God make sex necessary for procreation? Why make sex in the first place?

What kind of God to Catholics serve who would create man and woman, give them a strong sex drive, and then tell them that it's better to not have the sex He created them with a desire to have?

How twisted is that?

That alone tells me where the *virginity is better than sex* mentality comes from. It's from the enemy who is constantly out to destroy the human race and destroy the most basic relationship known to man, the marriage one.

Teaching against marriage, forbidding to marry, is a sign of false teaching.

1 Timothy 4:1-3 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared, who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.

69 posted on 02/18/2014 8:14:40 PM PST by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith....)
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Comment #70 Removed by Moderator

To: metmom

“Sure you did. Why did you presume that my comment of They presume to tell married couples how to manage their sex life. meant priests telling married couples not to have sex? (Your comment of “Can you give an example of an occasion a Priest told a married couple they could not have sex?”

Can you please give your academic credentials that make you an authority on the Catholic Church? To see your postings there is nothing that you don’t think you know about the Church, and everyone else is wrong.

You said yesterday that most priests are now agreeing with artificial contraception. I called you out on it. Told you to show me a source. You of course ignored me because your assertion was false and you knew it when you posted it.


71 posted on 02/18/2014 9:20:54 PM PST by NKP_Vet ("I never went to college, I was too busy learning stuff!" ~ Ted Nugent)
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To: NKP_Vet
you knew it

Reading the mind of another Freeper is a form of "making it personal."

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.

72 posted on 02/18/2014 9:25:37 PM PST by Religion Moderator
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To: metmom

‘The Catholic church has no claim on me or my soul that it can dictate any aspect of my life to me. I answer to Christ not the pope.’

Fact - the world uses a calendar, the Gregorian calendar, named after a Pope, Gregory.
Solar based calendar is used by the largest and greatest nations, and even the official calendar of the United Nations. Darn near the whole world.. even those who were given the written oracles are using it..

Fact- God has a calendar.. and it isn’t the Gregorian calendar..and it is actually in scripture..

Didn’t know how much of a slave I was to the world system, before it..

As proud as you are of your protetstant doctrines, your world does revolve around a namesake of a pope, regardless of how much input he or the church had, in his namesake calendar..

it runs the world’s business week, the sabbaths for the three major religions of the world and has its very own holy days depending on what nation you live in.. ( USA just had one on the moons day)

And for the record, if it was a protestant namesake, it’d be the same counterfeiting of God’s timekeeping. Daniel 7:25 said it would happen and didn’t start with the gregorian., the julian did the same.

We are fighting powers and principalities that can and has fooled even the very elect..

Biggest fact- His mercy and grace is needed for all of us more than any of us can ever know..


73 posted on 02/18/2014 9:29:09 PM PST by delchiante
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To: Gamecock

That is very good news. Thank you


74 posted on 02/19/2014 2:51:55 AM PST by Cronos (ObamaÂ’s dislike of Assad is not based on AssadÂ’s brutality but that he isn't a jihadi Moslem)
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To: RFEngineer; Brian Kopp DPM; Gamecock
Well, as Gamecock corrected me, this is not a Protestant/Catholic thing but about:
1. Which churches say contraception is wrong and which don't
2. Individuals who do this

I do not see this as third world v/s first world (btw, those terms no longer make sense after the collapse of the USSR) in any way as there are developed nations that have lower birth control than others and developing that have lower etc.

As Brian points out, accepting birth control is a slippery slope to abortion

75 posted on 02/19/2014 2:55:01 AM PST by Cronos (ObamaÂ’s dislike of Assad is not based on AssadÂ’s brutality but that he isn't a jihadi Moslem)
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To: metmom; NKP_Vet
Not really, birth control leads to the idea of births prevention, so why not prevent it even after the baby is formed?

in conjunction was the pre-marital sex which led to the disregard of marriage and finally in the 90s when people who didn't care about the sanctity of marriage said "we don't follow it, so who cares if hmsxls do it?"

it is causation

76 posted on 02/19/2014 2:57:11 AM PST by Cronos (ObamaÂ’s dislike of Assad is not based on AssadÂ’s brutality but that he isn't a jihadi Moslem)
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To: Cronos

We agree on the main point.

But I never thought I’d find disagreement on “what is a third world nation”...but you’re the second poster on the thread that makes the claim that the term “Third World” somehow don’t make “sense”.

If you have ever been to a third world city where thousands of people have sheets of corrugated metal that define their living space, you’ll understand that denying that there is a “third world” would be humorous, if it weren’t for the incomprehensible level of human misery you see when you stand on the edge of one of these shantytowns.

Usually Birth Control isn’t a big part of the residents of such places lives.

There IS a third world, and it is directly relevant to this issue. Sometimes you have to go there (to the shantytown) to understand how absurd your claim is.


77 posted on 02/19/2014 5:07:52 AM PST by RFEngineer
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To: Cronos
Not really, birth control leads to the idea of births prevention, so why not prevent it even after the baby is formed?

Because one is murder, the other isn't.

78 posted on 02/19/2014 6:19:57 AM PST by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith....)
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To: Cronos

The pill wouldn’t have taken if there wasn’t a demand for it.

The demand came first.

Sin begins in the heart before it is born in the actions.


79 posted on 02/19/2014 6:42:17 AM PST by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith....)
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To: delchiante

You find me a Scripture verse that says it’s immoral to use the current calendar and I’ll consider it a moral issue.


80 posted on 02/19/2014 6:47:47 AM PST by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith....)
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