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Are the Kingdom of God and Kingdom of Heaven the same?
March 1, 2014 | PhilipFreneau

Posted on 03/01/2014 10:42:07 AM PST by PhilipFreneau


Are the Kingdom of God and Heaven the same?


The teaching of the kingdom began in the days of John the Baptist, whose ministry was the fulfillment of Isaiah 40:3 and Malachi 3:1. These are the prophecies and their fulfillment:

"The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight in the desert a highway for our God." (Isa 40:3 KJV)

"Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts." (Mal 3:1 KJV)

"In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight." (Mat 3:1-3 KJV)

"The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins." (Mark 1:1-4 KJV)


John also fulfilled the prophecy of Malachi 4:5-6:

"Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse." (Mal 4:5-6 KJV)

"For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." (Mat 11:13-15 KJV)

Jesus made it clear that John the Baptist was the only Elijah that was to come:

"And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist." (Mat 17:11-13 KJV)


Now, after his baptism, and anointing with the Holy Ghost, Jesus began his ministry in Galilee where he preached the kingdom:

"Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, he departed into Galilee; And leaving Nazareth, he came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is upon the sea coast, in the borders of Zabulon and Nephthalim: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles; The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up. From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Mat 4:12-17 KJV)

"Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel." (Mark 1:14-15 KJV)


That should be enough to prove the kingdom of God and kingdom of Heaven are the same. But we will delve a little further. This is Jesus preaching to his disciples the Sermon on the Mount, as written in the books of Matthew and Luke:

"And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying, Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." (Mat 5:1-3 KJV)

"And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God." (Luke 6:20 KJV)


Here, the "two" kingdoms are mentioned by Matthew and Mark in similar verses about little children:

"But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven." (Mat 19:14 KJV)

"But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God." (Mark 10:14 KJV)


In the following verses, Luke and Matthew interchange kingdom of God and kingdom of Heaven in writing virtually the same statement:

"Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he." (Mat 11:11 KJV)

"For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he." (Luke 7:28 KJV)


And Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are in "both" kingdoms:

"And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven." (Mat 8:11 KJV)

"But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out." (Luke 13:27-28 KJV)


Here, the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven are used in the same passage about the rich man:

"Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God." (Mat 19:23-24 KJV)


Even in the parables, the "two kingdoms" are interchangeable:

"Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field: Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof." (Mat 13:31-32 KJV)

"And he said, Whereunto shall we liken the kingdom of God? or with what comparison shall we compare it? It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth, is less than all the seeds that be in the earth: But when it is sown, it groweth up, and becometh greater than all herbs, and shooteth out great branches; so that the fowls of the air may lodge under the shadow of it." (Mark 4:30-32 KJV)


The evidence is overwhelming that the kingdom of God and kingdom of heaven are the same. But what are they, and when were they created? Here, Jesus said the kingdom of heaven existed during his ministry, at least since the days of John the Baptist:

"And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force." (Mat 11:12 KJV)


That is crystal clear. In the following passages Jesus prophesied that he would eat meat in the Kingdom of God, and he fulfilled that prophecy shortly after this resurrection:

"And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer: For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God." (Luke 22:15-16 KJV)

"And I appoint unto you [his disciples] a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel." (Luke 22:29-30 KJV)

"And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat? And they gave him [Jesus] a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. And he took it, and did eat before them." (Luke 24:41-43 KJV)


Therefore, the kingdom of heaven has existed at least since the days of John the Baptist, and the Kingdom of God existed at least since shortly after the Lord's resurrection. But, if they are the same, and the evidence is overwhelming that they are, then the kingdom of God also existed since, at least, the days of John the Baptist. Check this out:

"Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you [Israel,] and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof." (Mat 21:43 KJV)


I don't know what nation Jesus was referring to, since the "kingdom" seems to have been given to anyone who believes in Christ, Jew or Gentile. It is clear that the kingdom of God existed at least before Matthew 21. We also know that the physical kingdom ended during the reign of Zedekiah about 600 BC. Let's get to the heart of the matter:

"And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you." (Luke 17:20-21 KJV)


So, the kingdom of God (or, heaven) is spiritual.

In any kingdom, there is the ruler (Christ,) and his servants, who rule and watch over the kingdom. We know of some servants, who were mentioned earlier: his disciples:

"And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." (Mat 19:28 KJV)


Other servants are mentioned as part of the first resurrection:

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." (Rev 20:4-6 KJV)


In summary, it appears the kingdom was taken from Israel, and given to everyone; and those of the first resurrection reign over the kingdom as servants of Christ.


Philip


TOPICS: Theology
KEYWORDS: freneau; kindomofgod; kingdomofgod; kingdomofheaven
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1 posted on 03/01/2014 10:42:07 AM PST by PhilipFreneau
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To: FourtySeven; Elsie; restornu; roamer_1; dartuser; af_vet_1981

I thought you might be interested in this thread.

Philip


2 posted on 03/01/2014 10:52:50 AM PST by PhilipFreneau
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To: PhilipFreneau
In summary, it appears the kingdom was taken from Israel, and given to everyone; and those of the first resurrection reign over the kingdom as servants of Christ.

No, "heaven" is merely a circumlocution for a Name of the Almighty. The author is ignorant of a basic circumlocution of the First Century, and thus repeats the supercessionist's error to his own detriment, commensurate with the curses first mentioned in Genesis 12:3.

Any student of First Century Judaism will readily recognize circumlocution. In traditions going back thousands of years, distancing one's communication for the Name(s) of G-d is a mark of reverence. (Yes, "G-d" is a sign of reverence.) The fact so few understand that their Bible is replete with such circumlocutions is shocking. Many people assume that the all caps L-O-R-D is a name or a title, not knowing it is merely an English circumlocution.
3 posted on 03/01/2014 11:05:58 AM PST by Tzfat
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To: Tzfat
"Heaven" is merely a circumlocution for a Name of the Almighty.

Which name of the Almighty? YHVH? Elohim? And can you give an example in the NT of this circumlocution you are talking about? Other than "kingdom of heaven."

4 posted on 03/01/2014 11:34:47 AM PST by sasportas
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To: Tzfat

>>>No, “heaven” is merely a circumlocution for a Name of the Almighty. The author is ignorant of a basic circumlocution of the First Century, and thus repeats the supercessionist’s error to his own detriment, commensurate with the curses first mentioned in Genesis 12:3.<<<

I am confident in the inspired translation of the King James Version.

>>>Any student of First Century Judaism will readily recognize circumlocution.<<<

Are those the ones who were persecuting the Christians?

>>>In traditions going back thousands of years, distancing one’s communication for the Name(s) of G-d is a mark of reverence. (Yes, “G-d” is a sign of reverence.) <<<

I am confident my Lord is perfectly happy whether I use the word GOD, the LORD, the ALMIGHTY, or any other title as long as I have a good (circumcised) heart. Those who love God will also worship and reverence his Son, Jesus Christ.

Philip


5 posted on 03/01/2014 12:03:01 PM PST by PhilipFreneau
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To: PhilipFreneau

No the “Kingdom of God” is the 1000 year kingdom on Earth after the Battle of Armageddon.

The “Kingdom of Heaven” comes after the last battle when Satan is bound and thrown into the pits of Hell, and the New Heaven and New earth are created.


6 posted on 03/01/2014 12:13:58 PM PST by amigatec (The only change you will see in the next four years will be what's in your pocket.)
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To: PhilipFreneau

Synonymous

They are the same. There are already people in the Kingdom of God/Kingdom of Heaven.


7 posted on 03/01/2014 12:21:29 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: amigatec

>>>No the “Kingdom of God” is the 1000 year kingdom on Earth after the Battle of Armageddon.

The “Kingdom of Heaven” comes after the last battle when Satan is bound and thrown into the pits of Hell, and the New Heaven and New earth are created.<<<

That is your opinion, or what you have been taught. I am challenging that teaching with the Word of God. If you read what I wrote, I believe you will find my position is well supported.

If I wrote anything that is contrary to the scripture, I would most interested in knowing.

Thanks,

Philip


8 posted on 03/01/2014 12:23:56 PM PST by PhilipFreneau
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To: PhilipFreneau

Phil I have to agree with you on principle with regards to your response. Peter tells us the real deal and settles the matter of Names here:

Acts 4:10-12 KJV

Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.


9 posted on 03/01/2014 1:45:52 PM PST by redleghunter
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To: PhilipFreneau

A cursory examination of the Gospels and Acts show the terms to be synonymous. I know others will disagree and look forward to their presentation.


10 posted on 03/01/2014 1:50:02 PM PST by redleghunter
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To: Salvation
>>>They are the same. There are already people in the Kingdom of God/Kingdom of Heaven.<<<

I agree. Jesus talked as if the Kingdom was already his before his ascension (Luke 22:15-16 fulfilled in 24:41-43;) and he said he would sit in his throne after he came with his holy angels, which occurred around A.D. 70:

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:" (Mat 25:31 KJV)

The book of Hebrews implied Jesus was already sitting on the throne:

"But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom' (Heb 1:8 KJV)

Philip

11 posted on 03/01/2014 2:02:48 PM PST by PhilipFreneau
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To: redleghunter

>>>A cursory examination of the Gospels and Acts show the terms to be synonymous.<<<

Thanks for you reply. It never dawned on me that anyone could think otherwise, until last summer.

Philip


12 posted on 03/01/2014 2:06:24 PM PST by PhilipFreneau
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To: PhilipFreneau
Are those the ones who were persecuting the Christians

No, like His first disciples.
13 posted on 03/01/2014 2:07:39 PM PST by Tzfat
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To: sasportas

There are countless places in the Gospels where circumlocution is used. See Luke 22:69 for an example.


14 posted on 03/01/2014 2:15:42 PM PST by Tzfat
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To: Tzfat

>>>No, like His first disciples.<<<

I see. Thanks.

Philip


15 posted on 03/01/2014 2:23:59 PM PST by PhilipFreneau
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To: PhilipFreneau

It’s been many years since I studied this, but that was my understanding at the time.

I studied Bible prophecy many years ago.


16 posted on 03/01/2014 2:40:00 PM PST by amigatec (The only change you will see in the next four years will be what's in your pocket.)
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To: amigatec

>>>It’s been many years since I studied this, but that was my understanding at the time. I studied Bible prophecy many years ago.<<<

Two things I learned early one were: the kingdom of God and heaven are the same; and the kingdom is within us. My first bible was a little, green Gideon New Testament; so I started reading in the New Testament.

Philip


17 posted on 03/01/2014 3:08:52 PM PST by PhilipFreneau
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To: PhilipFreneau

Heaven is where God is by definition.


18 posted on 03/01/2014 3:24:39 PM PST by WriteOn (Truth)
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To: PhilipFreneau

I used to think that myself, it took a lot of study to understand that they are different. Again I learned from studying Bible prophecy.


19 posted on 03/01/2014 3:30:11 PM PST by amigatec (The only change you will see in the next four years will be what's in your pocket.)
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To: WriteOn
>>>Heaven is where God is by definition.<<<

That would be a good topic for discussion. This was the initial definition of heaven:

"And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day." (Gen 1:6-8 KJV)

And this is what God placed in the open firmament called heaven:

"And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven." (Gen 1:20 KJV)

It certainly seems like God is trying to tell us that heaven is our atmosphere.

Philip

20 posted on 03/01/2014 4:35:59 PM PST by PhilipFreneau
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To: PhilipFreneau
The article does not note that "kingdom of heaven" is a phrase peculiar to Matthew in the New Testament, which suggests that it is a question of style, rather than denoting something different than "kingdom of God."

Moreover, he appears to equate the two:

And Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly, I say to you, only with difficulty will a rich person enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God." (Matt. 19:23-24, emphasis added)

Verse 24 begins with "Again I tell you." Matthew is repeating the same point he had just made, with different words, for emphasis.

21 posted on 03/01/2014 6:01:47 PM PST by RansomOttawa (tm)
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To: PhilipFreneau

Different eschatological perspectives consider the topic differently.

Generally speaking, they are not identical.

While many believers are today as members of the Church are in the Kingdom of God, the Kingdom of Heaven has not yet been established on Earth. His Kingdom on Earth begins with the Millennium.

For your study, consider the following topics at http://servantsplace.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/The-Kingdom-in-History-and-Prophecy-by-L-S-Chafer.pdf


22 posted on 03/01/2014 6:25:48 PM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: RansomOttawa

>>>The article does not note that “kingdom of heaven” is a phrase peculiar to Matthew in the New Testament, which suggests that it is a question of style, rather than denoting something different than “kingdom of God.” ... Moreover, he appears to equate the two: Verse 24 begins with “Again I tell you.” Matthew is repeating the same point he had just made, with different words, for emphasis.<<<

All good points. Thanks.

Philip


23 posted on 03/01/2014 7:56:14 PM PST by PhilipFreneau
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To: PhilipFreneau
Thanks for you reply. It never dawned on me that anyone could think otherwise, until last summer.

Many people have thought differently for a long, long time...The best way to tell they are not the same is because they are spelled differently...

The Kingdom of God as you have noted is the spiritual kingdom which all born again Christians are a part of...I have to be specific there since it appears that all Christians are not born again...The Kingdom of God is invisible...It is within us...We are now living in the Kingdom of God...

Luk 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

The Pharisees as well were confused but it's clear that they were looking for a physical kingdom...Jesus cleared them up on what the Kingdom of God was...

The Kingdom of Heaven is a physical kingdom...It is land...Land with a city and a throne and a King...

Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Jesus is talking about a physical kingdom with himself as the King...The Kingdom of Heaven...But at the present time THAT kingdom is not from here...

Zec 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

Jesus came to Jerusalem just as Zechariah prophesied but was rejected by Israel...He came as a King...A King on a throne to rule over his chosen people...They killed him instead...

After the resurrection, Jesus appeared to his disciples and he was asked:

Act 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

That should be clear to anyone that the disciples were talking of a physical kingdom...A kingdom with land, a city, a throne and a King...

They rejected Jesus again...The Kingdom of Heaven is put on hold until Jesus shows up the next time...He then WILL reign from a physical throne in the city of Jerusalem...

The Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven can and do overlap in the scriptures...One has to rightly divide the word of truth and sort them out...

24 posted on 03/01/2014 9:27:00 PM PST by Iscool (Ya mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailer park...)
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To: Iscool

>>>Many people have thought differently for a long, long time...The best way to tell they are not the same is because they are spelled differently...<<<

What about all the verses I posted where the same subject refers to both kingdom of God and kingdom of heaven? What about the verse in Matthew where both are used in the very same verse regarding the rich man?

>>>The Kingdom of Heaven is a physical kingdom...It is land...Land with a city and a throne and a King..<<<

There is no evidence of that in the scripture. I believe that was made-up by a man named Darby in the 1800’s, and promoted by a man name Scofield. But there is no scriptural support, whatsoever. To the contrary. The kingdom of heaven existed at least as far back as the days of John the Baptist, as is written.

Did you read my post?

Philip


25 posted on 03/01/2014 9:50:24 PM PST by PhilipFreneau
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To: PhilipFreneau
"Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you [Israel,] and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof." (Mat 21:43 KJV)

The word "Israel" does not appear in Matthew 21:43 KJV but you added it as if it were used by the translators. The verses following it interpret it. "You" referred to the the chief priests and Pharisees, and not the multitude.

Note that the last verses make it clear he was referring to the then current leadership, not the people, of Israel. Note also that Paul already explained in Romans that national Israel is blinded until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in, which coincides with And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. Note the plural. History shows us this started in 70AD/CE but did not end there. It continued through the 132-135 AD/CE Second Jewish-Roman War when Jerusalem was rebuilt as a Roman city (Aelia Capitolina. Jerusalem later passed to the Moslems. In 1967 it was liberated and unified again in the modern State of Israel, albeit the Temple Mount is still under Moslem religious rule so that could be an extenuating factor.

Regarding the Kingdom I would say it depends on when Messiah returns.


26 posted on 03/01/2014 9:57:36 PM PST by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began)
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To: Iscool

>>>The Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven can and do overlap in the scriptures...One has to rightly divide the word of truth and sort them out...<<<

That sounds like Scofield 101, alright. His book would have been more accurately titled, “Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth.” That con-man has fooled a lot of people, and my heart goes out to them. You do know he was a convicted felon—a con-artist—don’t you? He saw a way to make money, and he jumped on it.

Philip


27 posted on 03/01/2014 9:59:20 PM PST by PhilipFreneau
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To: PhilipFreneau
Did you read my post?

Yep...

>>>The Kingdom of Heaven is a physical kingdom...It is land...Land with a city and a throne and a King..<<<

There is no evidence of that in the scripture.

The Old Testament is full of it...Everywhere you look it speaks of the coming kingdom...A physical kingdom...

I realize you and others look at many of those verses and don't take them literally...I do take them literally...When the bible says the lions will lay down with the lambs (without eating them), I believe it...And we know those things have not happened...

Understanding that there is a physical kingdom coming with Jesus reigning on the throne of David, as promised is the only way all the scripture makes sense...Removing that kingdom forces people to dump half the bible or more into the trash bin...

I don't expect to change your mind and you will not change mine...

28 posted on 03/01/2014 10:16:48 PM PST by Iscool (Ya mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailer park...)
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To: PhilipFreneau
That sounds like Scofield 101, alright. His book would have been more accurately titled, “Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth.” That con-man has fooled a lot of people, and my heart goes out to them. You do know he was a convicted felon—a con-artist—don’t you? He saw a way to make money, and he jumped on it.

That's what folks are saying now days but there doesn't appear to be any evidence of it...However, that was supposedly before Scofield became a Christian...

But regardless, doesn't matter to me...Scofield is not my mentor...As far as what Scofield taught, I can clearly see a lot of it in the scriptures or I wouldn't believe it...So I don't care if you attack Scofield or Darby or whoever...

29 posted on 03/01/2014 10:29:24 PM PST by Iscool (Ya mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailer park...)
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To: af_vet_1981
>>>Note that the last verses make it clear he was referring to the then current leadership, not the people, of Israel.<<<

Who was punished when Israel broke the land sabbaths. The leadership, only? No.

No matter how you slice it, only a remnant, and those that called on the name of the Lord were saved. The only way the kingdom of God could refer to Israel, only, would be to those elect who were given the thrones and priestly positions in New Jerusalem at the first resurrection; but that is heavenly. For example, his disciples sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

>>> Note also that Paul already explained in Romans that national Israel is blinded until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in, which coincides with And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. <<<

You left out the most important part: then next verse:

"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:" (Rom 11:26 KJV)

That prophecy was from Joel. Read the original:

"And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call." (Joel 2:32 KJV)

Everyone that called on the name of the Lord was saved. Paul said this to the Gentiles in that same chapter:

"For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off."

Why would he say that if "all Israel was to be saved," as you are suggesting? And why would Paul say this:

"For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh." (Rom 9:3)

Why were they cursed? Because they denied Christ, killed the prophets, resorted to idolatry, … Moses warned them over and over again that they would be cursed if they did not keep God's instructions:

"For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people." (Acts 3:22-23 KJV)

"For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the Lord; and how much more after my death? Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them. For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the Lord, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands. And Moses spake in the ears of all the congregation of Israel the words of this song, until they were ended." (Deu 31:27-30 KJV)

Malachi also warned them they would be cursed:

"Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse." (Mal 4:5-6 KJV)


Now to the second part. In 70 A.D., Jerusalem, the holy city, was trodden down by the Roman armies (Gentiles) for forty and two months by the Roman Armies. Over one million Jews were killed in Jerusalem, and tens of thousands were led away captive into all nations. Rev 11 also talks about the holy city being trodden the Gentiles:

"And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months." (Rev 11:1-2 KJV)

Moses prophesied about Israel being led away captive in his chapter on the siege and destruction of Jerusalem:

"And it shall come to pass, that as the Lord rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the Lord will rejoice over you to destroy you, and to bring you to nought; and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it. And the Lord shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone. And among these nations shalt thou find no ease, neither shall the sole of thy foot have rest: but the Lord shall give thee there a trembling heart, and failing of eyes, and sorrow of mind: And thy life shall hang in doubt before thee; and thou shalt fear day and night, and shalt have none assurance of thy life: In the morning thou shalt say, Would God it were even! and at even thou shalt say, Would God it were morning! for the fear of thine heart wherewith thou shalt fear, and for the sight of thine eyes which thou shalt see. And the Lord shall bring thee into Egypt again with ships, by the way whereof I spake unto thee, Thou shalt see it no more again: and there ye shall be sold unto your enemies for bondmen and bondwomen, and no man shall buy you." (Deu 28:63-68 KJV)

Therefore, I believe the "fulfillment, or fulness, of the Gentiles" was completed when Jerusalem was destroyed in 70AD. I also believe that, after that, there was no more Jerusalem, as far as Christ was concerned, except New Jerusalem, in heaven.

>>>Regarding the Kingdom I would say it depends on when Messiah returns.<<<

He said this:

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:" (Mat 25:31 KJV)

That is when he sat on his throne: when he came with his holy angels to gather his elect in 70AD.

Philip

30 posted on 03/01/2014 11:04:21 PM PST by PhilipFreneau
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To: Iscool
>>>That's what folks are saying now days but there doesn't appear to be any evidence of it...However, that was supposedly before Scofield became a Christian...<<<

There is a ton of evidence. Is that the same Christian who refused to help his previously abandoned wife and children after his "conversion?" He became a wealthy man, and didn't leave his children a dime, from all reports, nor did help them at any other time. Families without a father had it tough in those days.

BTW, I saw the error of Scofield's doctrine long before I even knew his middle name. This other stuff about his personal life was revealed to me much later, long after I had rejected his doctrine.

>>>But regardless, doesn't matter to me...Scofield is not my mentor...As far as what Scofield taught, I can clearly see a lot of it in the scriptures or I wouldn't believe it...So I don't care if you attack Scofield or Darby or whoever...<<<

The reason I don't believe them is because so much of their doctrine cannot be found in the scriptures. Much of it had to be spiritualized, including the kingdom of heaven/God distinction I wrote this thread about.

Notice that I did not mention Scofield in the thread, nor any creeds, commentaries or other opinions. Rather I tried to let scripture interpret scripture.

I can see we are not going to see eye-to-eye on this. But whatever you care to write me, I will read it carefully and give you the best scriptural analysis I can.

Philip

31 posted on 03/01/2014 11:24:26 PM PST by PhilipFreneau
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To: af_vet_1981
I forgot to comment on the plural "times" reference by Jesus that you mentioned:

>>>And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. Note the plural.<<<

I believe Jesus was using a shortened version of these "times":

"And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished." (Dan 12:7)

"And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent." (Rev 12:14)

Revelation 12 gives a clue how long that is:

"And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days." (Rev 12:6)

Therefore, times, time and half a time are 2 + 1 + 1/2 = 3 1/2 years, or forty and two months; exactly the time the holy city, Jerusalem was trodden under foot by the Gentiles, as prophesied in Rev 11:2, and confirmed by historical records.

Philip

32 posted on 03/01/2014 11:56:36 PM PST by PhilipFreneau
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To: Iscool
>>>The Old Testament is full of it...Everywhere you look it speaks of the coming kingdom...A physical kingdom...<<<

Shouldn't there be a bunch of references in the New Testament to that kingdom, the third temple, and all those other things you believe? Did it ever occur to you that when you read in the prophecies about a "high mountain" or a future Zion or Jerusalem, they might be referring to this?

"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant..." (Heb 12:22-24 KJV)

>>>I realize you and others look at many of those verses and don't take them literally...I do take them literally...When the bible says the lions will lay down with the lambs (without eating them), I believe it...And we know those things have not happened...<<<

So the lions will become vegetarians? That is a new twist. Could it not mean something like, the Devil as a roaring lion, or some other metaphor of the mean man changing his ways? You do recall the Jews took the Old Testament literally, and it did not fare too well for them.

>>>Understanding that there is a physical kingdom coming with Jesus reigning on the throne of David, as promised is the only way all the scripture makes sense...Removing that kingdom forces people to dump half the bible or more into the trash bin..<<<

Surprisingly, I see just the opposite. The only way the new covenant (the new testament) makes any sense to me is with a spiritual kingdom and temple. How do you interpret this prophecy by Isaiah?

"Thus saith the Lord, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest. For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the Lord: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word. He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations." (Isa 66:1-3 KJV)

I don't believe I would be doing any animal sacrifices in the future. In fact, I don't want my family anywhere near such a place.

Philip

33 posted on 03/02/2014 12:23:04 AM PST by PhilipFreneau
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To: PhilipFreneau
>>>The Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven can and do overlap in the scriptures...One has to rightly divide the word of truth and sort them out...<<<

That sounds like Scofield 101, alright. His book would have been more accurately titled, “Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth.”

Why ask the question of the thread title, if you've already made up your mind not to look at the evidence?

34 posted on 03/02/2014 4:23:57 AM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: PhilipFreneau

If I can get these angels to stop dancing on my pinhead for just a wee bit, I’ll ask them.


35 posted on 03/02/2014 4:34:41 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: PhilipFreneau

“Thy Kingdom come, on earth, as it is in Heaven.”

This is a prayer given to God by believers here on earth, while members of the Kingdom of God. It is still meaningful without confusing the 2 kingdoms.


36 posted on 03/02/2014 4:49:05 AM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: Cvengr

>>>Why ask the question of the thread title, if you’ve already made up your mind not to look at the evidence?<<<

I have read every word of Scofield’s reference notes in my 1909; including the incoherent ones. They are also available on-line in the 1917 version.

The true reason the Kingdom of God/heaven overlap is because they are the same thing, with authors interchanging the words.

How did the kingdom of heaven exist in the days of John the Baptist if it is a future event? That can only happen if that verse is spiritualized, which is a no-no.

Philip


37 posted on 03/02/2014 6:24:29 AM PST by PhilipFreneau
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To: PhilipFreneau
How did the kingdom of heaven exist in the days of John the Baptist if it is a future event? That can only happen if that verse is spiritualized, which is a no-no.

The kingdom of heaven was at hand (close)...

38 posted on 03/02/2014 7:01:11 AM PST by Iscool (Ya mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailer park...)
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To: Elsie

>>>If I can get these angels to stop dancing on my pinhead for just a wee bit, I’ll ask them.<<<

LOL! Thanks, Elsie

Philip


39 posted on 03/02/2014 9:37:18 AM PST by PhilipFreneau
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To: Iscool

>>>The kingdom of heaven was at hand (close)...<<<

According to Jesus, it already existed since the days of John the Baptist. Do you have any scripture that would dispute the words of Jesus?

Do you think Jesus was trying to tell us that the kingdom was going to be taken over by “new ownership?”

What is your definition of “close?”

Philip


40 posted on 03/02/2014 9:41:03 AM PST by PhilipFreneau
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To: Cvengr

>>>This is a prayer given to God by believers here on earth, while members of the Kingdom of God. It is still meaningful without confusing the 2 kingdoms.<<<

Two kingdoms? Do you have any supporting scripture that there will be two kingdoms?

Thanks,

Philip


41 posted on 03/02/2014 9:42:33 AM PST by PhilipFreneau
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To: Cvengr
>>>Why ask the question of the thread title, if you've already made up your mind not to look at the evidence?<<<

What evidence did you present? I recall your opinions, but I somehow missed your evidence. Please restate your scriptural evidence.

The whole point is to bring out scriptural evidence to support our doctrines. If you have any scriptural evidence to support your views, please post it. I will not deny the Word of God, if it supports your views.

For the record, I appreciate your earlier link to the Lewis Sperry Chafer paper; but I don't consider him a credible bibilical scholar. For example, he wrote in the paper you linked, "The Kingdom in History and Prophecy:"

Protestant theology has very generally taught that all the kingdom promise, and ever the great Davidic covenant itself, are to be fulfilled in and through the Church. The confusion thus created has been still further darkened by the failure to distinguish the different phases of the kingdom truth indicated by the expression "kingdom of Heaven," and "kingdom of God. "

Then, in a vain attempt to present his opinion as fact, he tries to tug at our insecurity with, "Bible interpretation is incomplete without it." He piles on with this hogwash, all right out of Scofield 101:

In the Bible:
- " Israel " is not the " Church";
- " Zion " is not the body of saints of this dispensation;
-the " throne of David " is not Heaven, nor will it ever be;
-the " land of your fathers " is not " Paradise " and
-the " house of Jacob" is not a host of Gentiles ignorantly attempting to force an entrance into Judaism

That is spiritualization of the scriptures to the nth degree. A couple of things he mentioned are borderline true; but they are polluted by half-truths and absolute nonsense.

Getting back to the topic, there is no proof whatsoever the "two" kingdoms are anything but the same. The only "proof" that exists is a mere opinion, and you know what they are worth.

Anyway, thanks for your reply.

Philip

42 posted on 03/02/2014 10:19:01 AM PST by PhilipFreneau
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To: PhilipFreneau
Therefore, times, time and half a time are 2 + 1 + 1/2 = 3 1/2 years, or forty and two months; exactly the time the holy city, Jerusalem was trodden under foot by the Gentiles, as prophesied in Rev 11:2, and confirmed by historical records. Philip

Jerusalem was besieged for quite some time. After it fell, it was trodden under foot by the Gentiles until at least 1967, or count approximately 6 months in 70 when they entered Jerusalem.

43 posted on 03/02/2014 10:22:46 AM PST by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began)
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To: af_vet_1981

>>>Jerusalem was besieged for quite some time. After it fell, it was trodden under foot by the Gentiles until at least 1967, or count approximately 6 months in 70 when they entered Jerusalem.<<<

I’m not sure what you are saying.

Philip


44 posted on 03/02/2014 11:30:26 AM PST by PhilipFreneau
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To: PhilipFreneau

I mean Jerusalem was not trodden under foot by the Gentiles
for only 42 months so your link falls long or short. The Romans entered for about 6 months in 70. Otherwise the Gentiles have trodden it under foot until this day, or if you don’t regard the site Abraham offered Isaac and on which the a temples were built, 1944 Gentile years. You also might run all your Preterist calendar code calculations through the Hebrew/biblical calendar.


45 posted on 03/02/2014 11:49:43 AM PST by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began)
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To: PhilipFreneau
And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the Lord thy God hath driven thee, And shalt return unto the Lord thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul; That then the Lord thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the Lord thy God hath scattered thee. If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the Lord thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee: And the Lord thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers. And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. And the Lord thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee. And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the Lord, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day.

God foresaw Israel would choose poorly and that Messiah would be betrayed to the wicked hands of the Gentiles. He also foresaw this.

46 posted on 03/02/2014 12:25:05 PM PST by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began)
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To: PhilipFreneau
That is when he sat on his throne: when he came with his holy angels to gather his elect in 70AD.

Welcome to fantasy island again folks ...

Where the second coming actually was in 70 AD, and even though every eye was suppose to see Him (Rev. 1), He really came back spiritually so that nobody actually did.

Miller repented of his foolishness ...

47 posted on 03/02/2014 1:48:08 PM PST by dartuser
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To: af_vet_1981
>>>I mean Jerusalem was not trodden under foot by the Gentiles for only 42 months so your link falls long or short. The Romans entered for about 6 months in 70. Otherwise the Gentiles have trodden it under foot until this day, or if you don’t regard the site Abraham offered Isaac and on which the a temples were built, 1944 Gentile years. You also might run all your Preterist calendar code calculations through the Hebrew/biblical calendar<<<

I would agree with you, if we had only the means to look at it from a futuristic perspective, with no historical hindsight. But historians say that forty and two months was the length of the war, from Mar 67 to Sept 70 AD. I believe that was considered the time period beginning when Rome declared war on Israel, until the Temple was destroyed. We also have to consider the high probability that "the holy city" included all of Israel. Moses Stuart wrote in Hints on the Interpretation of Prophecy, 2Ed, 1851, p 115-116:

“. . . Jerusalem, as being the metropolis, is, as often in the Old Testament, made the symbol or representative of the whole country or nation. The reader needs only to be reminded, how often Zion and Jerusalem stand, in prophetic language, as the representatives of the Jewish government, polity, land, and nation, in order to accede to the position, that the capitals in the Apocalypse are to be considered as the symbols of the country and of the government to which they belong."

“When John therefore predicts, in Rev. 11:2, that “the holy city shall be trodden under foot 42 months,” this of course involves the idea, that the country of which the holy city is the capital, is also trodden under foot. To make their way to the capital, a foreign enemy, coming (as the Romans did) from the north, must have overrun a great portion of Palestine antecedently to the capture of Jerusalem. The prediction of course includes both, inasmuch as the holy city is made the representative of the country at large.”

Therefore, according to Stuart, the term "holy city" included the nation it represented. Recall that Jesus emphasized the destruction of Jerusalem, yet other Israeli cities were destroyed, as well.

Philip

48 posted on 03/02/2014 2:22:52 PM PST by PhilipFreneau
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To: dartuser

>>>Welcome to fantasy island again folks ... Where the second coming actually was in 70 AD, and even though every eye was suppose to see Him (Rev. 1), He really came back spiritually so that nobody actually did. Miller repented of his foolishness ...<<<

LOL! This coming from one who believes that Old Testament imagery that is used in the New Testament must be considered literally? I think you and Miller have a lot in common. Wasn’t he some sort of false prophet, along the lines of Hal Lindsey, who predicted the year of the rapture?

Talk about fantasy island. One day maybe you will explain to us how you envision “every eye” seeing Jesus, and especially those who have been dead for 2000 years; you remember: those who pierced him? I bet you have to put on your Super-Duper Fantasy Island Thinking Cap for that one! LOL!

Philip


49 posted on 03/02/2014 2:34:10 PM PST by PhilipFreneau
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To: af_vet_1981
>>>God foresaw Israel would choose poorly and that Messiah would be betrayed to the wicked hands of the Gentiles. He also foresaw this. . . <<<

Just a minor point: shouldn't you have written, the wicked Jews betrayed Christ in front of the compassionate Roman, who didn't want Christ murdered and tried to talk the Jews out of it? Or something like that . . .

That passage from Deut 30 was referring to the Babylonian captivity, if I understand correctly. I also noticed you stopped before the going got rough. This followed:

"… I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; In that I command thee this day to love the Lord thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the Lord thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live…" (Deut 20:15-19)

I am still not sure what your point is. In the next chapter it appears Moses threw in the towel:

"For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the Lord; and how much more after my death? Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them. For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the Lord, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands." (Deu 31:27-29 KJV)

I would appreciate it if you would include the Book, Chapter and verse(s). Otherwise, how am I going to follow your conversation and have enough spare time to take care of my honey-do list?

Thanks,

Philip

50 posted on 03/02/2014 2:58:01 PM PST by PhilipFreneau
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